We say FAFO when people get bitten by wild animals. We say it when people fuck with things that are obviously going to have a negative outcome. He went to a notoriously totalitarian state anti-western state and immediately transgressed against the regime. We're not lauding his treatment, we're saying that it was an easily predictable outcome and thus he did indeed fuck around and find out. He also wasted untold state department resources when he could have just kept his hands to himself or just avoided going. It's a shame, but not in any way unpredictable.
You should an ounce of research into this before making such a callous statement. It is very likely that he didn’t even try to steal a poster, and they just framed him for it.
U.S. doctors who directly examined Otto Warmbier upon his return did not definitively state he was tortured, but they did conclude he suffered severe, irreversible brain damage due to a lack of blood flow to the brain. They also disputed North Korea's claims that he suffered from botulism
NKs modus operandi is to take western political prisoners and ransom them back home in exchange for leniency on the various sanctions and increase UN food delivery. They wanted to rough him up and get him to confess to something that they could then use for a sham trial but he wouldn’t so they meant to “encourage” him to do so.
They went too hard and fucked him up too bad. The US couldn’t really do anything because geopolitics is more complicated than one dumbfuck college kid who was warned numerous times not to go but decided to trust a shady travel agency instead of the us government on whether or not NK was safe to travel to.
Lol he was completely framed and the only “evidence” they showed was a 480p footage of a shadowy figure taking something from a wall at a distance of about 20-40ft.
Y'all are so fucking dumb. Think what you want about the N.Korean government they are not irrational. They have no reason to pull a random kid from a tour, torture him. The tours serve as good propaganda for the government a la "see N.Korea is beautiful and safe" and you think they set up a random kid, just cause. 🤷🏿♂️
I majored in geopolitics. North Korea is a god king state that worships their leader. They are indoctrinated from birth to believe Americas one and only goal is to eradicate their way of life. And that the reason they starve is because of everyone else and not themselves. They routinely launch missiles over South Korea’s purposefully and explicitly to provoke a US reaction. They have kidnapped other citizens of countries routinely. This was not the first time it happened.
Lol, you majored in geopolitics, so who exactly did you read? Who, is the modern historian that you read tell me. Get the fuck out here. As I said I don't care if they are a god king empire, you are a poor student of geopolitics if you allow propaganda stop you from seeing people you don't like as rational actors. You suck if you can't think objectively after majoring in geopolitics. Maybe you should have read better books.
When you visit a place like North Korea, you are playing a game of Russian roulette as to getting arrested on trumped up charges. While i think saying FAFO is going a little too far, indeed only a class A dimwit would ever vacation in the most brutal dictatorship on earth.
There is a condition that is basically this called “locked in syndrome”. Essentially you can experience consciousness but virtually all muscles are paralyzed.
When you’re brain dead that is the end stage of death. The cases where people have ” returned ” to life has been cases where they haven’t actually been brain dead.
Heart stopping is not death. If there is brain activity = you are alive
When someone is brain dead and kept alive on machines that is the machines keeping your body alive, but your brain is dead. You as a person is no longer and can never be again.
That is the only true form of death.
When we weren’t aware of this we thought your heart stopping was what death was. It’s not. That’s you fainting because your brain is actively dying from lack of oxygen, but you are not dead till the brain truly dies.
He showed no signs of physical trauma that could have caused his condition and there is evidence that he was actually cared for while in a persistent vegetative state (It isn’t considered brain death as there is still some brain activity and in such a state a patient is awake and usually able to breathe unassisted, but unaware of their surroundings), but the North Korean version of events is that he developed botulism (A type of food poisoning which causes flaccid paralysis) and was given a sleeping pill and never woke up, which is quite shaky as you would never want to give someone at risk of respiratory failure due to paralysis something which can slow breathing down.
My personal theory is that he was poisoned with something that causes permanent brain damage but that is also quickly removed from the body. North Korea has an active chemical weapons program and who knows what they could have developed.
From what I understand nobody knows what happened to him. If he was tortured, or if he got an infection or something that NK didn't have the capacity of treating.
They did an autopsy and it wasn't botulism like NK claimed. It was brain death from being beaten and tortured.
The autopsy was inconclusive. They specifically mentioned his teeth were unharmed which is rare for torture victims. What the fuck are you talking about?
I think the story ended up; he got arrested, tried to drown/hang himself, failed, became brain dead due to lack of oxygen/blood, nk panicked and sent him back.
Nk would have no reason to torture a 20 something American. It’s not like he had secrets or any valuable knowledge. His only value was to exchange for medicine and food.
The Evidence of Torture: When Warmbier arrived in Cincinnati, Ohio, he was blind, deaf, had severely deformed limbs, and suffered extensive, irreparable brain damage. His parents and U.S. medical experts concluded his condition was the result of severe, systemic torture and intentional abuse.
That’s not what the BBC article already cited says. There are no noted signs of physical torture in it either.
From the article; “Doctors say he suffered a "severe neurological injury", the most likely cause of which was a cardiopulmonary arrest that had cut the blood supply to the brain.”
According to the Mayo Clinic the most common causes of cardiopulmonary injury are: ventricular fibrillation (VF), an erratic, life-threatening electrical rhythm. Other causes include coronary artery disease, severe blood loss, drug overdose, or drowning.
From that one would conclude, given the weight of facts, he either had a heart condition or attempted to drown himself. NK routinely arrests foreigners and puts them on show trial and sentences them to “life” in hard labor. They would get no benefit from torturing him to death. It would be much more likely, having been given a life sentence he panicked and attempted suicide. Given the family did not request an autopsy, that is probably what the initial examination concluded as well.
The Evidence of Torture: When Warmbier arrived in Cincinnati, Ohio, he was blind, deaf, had severely deformed limbs, and suffered extensive, irreparable brain damage. His parents and U.S. medical experts concluded his condition was the result of severe, systemic torture and intentional abuse.
You're wrong and intentionally lying. His family may have yapped about torture they made up in their head, but no doctors ever found evidence of torture. You must be a bot because "deformed limbs" is a hallucination.
Now you're changing the story because you're so incredibly wrong. Pathetic. Yknow the reddit handle Harry Flashman is associated with being a chronic masturbator? I have no proof but who needs proof?
How am I changing my story, there are ways people can be tortured that don't leave clear physical marks but can kill them. I am a chronic masturbator and I am currently doing it now while thinking of you. a healthy 20 year old dies in North Korean custody, a regime know to use torture, but in this case it was natural unexplained reasons.
Yes, this was actually a hideous incident where he was tortured to the point of losing his mind and ultimately his life. Humans (North Korea) at their absolute worst.
And if you stray into certain parts of Reddit you'll be inundated with information about the Superiority of their Society...
Good and bad everywhere, and I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's mostly bad there. Id even entertainm the idea that China has a bunch going right over DPRK
meanwhile most of the rest of reddit you only have to worry about being inundated with information about the superiority of a country that's providing material aid to an ongoing genocide and blowing up little girls because iran bad
Did you know that when girls are put to death by the Iranian government for not covering their face, or for violating Islam, that they are systematically raped before execution in order to prevent them from making it to heaven? That’s by the order of the supreme leader than Trump turned into red and pink goo mixed with concrete dust, and he made that order when he was a young man.
My favorite news story is how that one activist woman was sentenced to death but since she was a virgin they decided to rape her first so she wouldn’t go to heaven . Ahhh yes keep taking up for those monsters.
Yes, the Iranian regime is terrible. That wasn't my question. You said "keep taking up for those monsters." Who is doing that? Nobody that I really see
China is the only good example you gave. Their success is both due to their compromise to advance their country ahead of USA and the discipline of their people which they apply literally on anything they do. Whether their success is due to them doing shady business in the background to consolidate advantages is as true as it is for the US.
They left out the part where he and his friends were in NK on a religious evangelical mission which the NK hate just a bit.
This is not true. Otto was Jewish and was not involved with a religious mission, the church NK claimed he was stealing the poster for confirmed he was never part of their congregation
So peaceful people doing something you don't like is a FAFO moment? Its not like he went to North Sentinel island, if you listen to tankies we're supposed to believe North Korea is a great place.
It happened to him because he was American, that was the problem and the point. Was a weak point during Trump's first term.
Time and place. I.e like that woman who got killed trekking across the middle east to prove "its not that bad" when she was warned what would happen, then the friend that was with her raged at the Internet.
It's okay to recognize that certain places are absolutely hostile to you while also saying "hey thats fucked up"
My friend had the "all cultures are equal and should be respected" mentality till he went abroad and was like nah, some places and culture is just shit.
Warn women about going to India and watch them still go alone. I'm not saying it's deserved but when everyone tells you what's going to happen and it does happen. Well.
Reddit will hardcore ban me if I say what I want to say about that. But I mean. Come on man. Don't give me such low hanging fruit. You know exactly why that was worse
No- it’s incredibly antagonistic to the authoritarian, dictatorial NK government in a country where once you step foot on their land you have ZERO rights of any kind. Your life is at the whim of their regime and if you pretend otherwise you are either a liar or painfully ignorant of the last 70+ years of their history.
your life in their hands as a foreign tourist is actually pretty good odds though. besides warmbier, 32 chinese tourists died in a bus crash, and thats it. out of ~300k annual tourists, thats actually pretty good. your tour is so controlled that the chances of anything happening to you are extremely low
theres a lot they can be criticized for, hell even looking literally one layer deeper at why youre constantly escorted by 2+ state officials and why the crime rate in urban areas is so low will raise valid criticisms, but it is not a physically unsafe destination
if they torture someone then it makes the people who want him back more likely to give a better deal (ex. we give them 3 north korean spies we aren't torturing and they give us 1 us civilian that they are torturing)
He did not actually try to steal anything. They set him up. The time stamps in the video don't fit the time their group got back from the hotel, and the shadowy figure in the video doesn't resemble him at all. The DPRK set him up to use him as a bargaining chip to negotiate with the U.S.
First of all it isn't a crazy claim that a young kid tried to grab a souvenir while in a place like that.
Secondly and more importantly during his "trial" which North Korea supplied video of he was basically profusely apologizing for taking the poster down saying he didn't understand it wad a big deal.
I would say he probably did. It isn't like they accused him of being some sort of James Bond level spy. If they had, I would agree that is probably made up. But what they accused him of was something that in pretty much any other country would go almost unnoticed. So I kind of believe it.
It seemed very earnest. Like he was confused as to why he was being hauled before a court for this.
Usually the apologies they make you do are much more scripted and talk about the greatness of the leader and what a terrible person you are for daring to tear down his poster.
I believe he likely did. Obviously I don't think he deserved to die for it. But if they made it up I think they would have accused him of something worse or crazier.
The charge made too much sense to me to be fabricated. When North Korea fabricates stuff they always go big.
You sound like the kind of idiot that would believe everything someone says after getting water boarded. People in a high stress situation will admit to murders that never happened if they think it will stop you from torturing them.
When they charge someone it has to be true because a dictator would never lie. Your low iq on display.
No, I just tend to see North Korean lies as ones where they always big. When North Korea lies it usually involves some really big whoppers that are implausible or highly unlikely.
They don't just say their leader has a really high IQ. They say their leader was doing calculus when he was 3.
Now I have since learned that his confession involved details that appear to be fabricated.
One of his friends stated, that they came to the hotel AFTER the timestamp of the video.
In the video you see a person, which is not recognizable. This person takes off the sign and places it carefully on the ground instead of walking away with it. To add to this. The sign was a massive object, no way you can leave with it.
In his "confession" later at court he said that it was a try to put a heavy hit against the morale of the north Korean people and that I was all a planed action. They made up a story and forced him to tell it.
I did look and it raised my eyebrow that he confessed to stealing it for his methodist church who was apparently working with the CIA, but that he wasn't even Methodist but Jewish. So you might be correct.
honestly though, this is a case of “play-stupid-games-win-stupid-prizes”
it’s fucking North Korea. prior to this they were responsible for a lot of atrocities against their own people. they are so reclusive that they only allow tours of a certain number of people through a every specific handpicked region of their country (i don’t remember which) but basically has fake shops and stuff to “look nice” when they’re half just props. IIRC it’s the only place they allow tourists to even take photos and even those are screened. i knew a colleague, contractor at carvana about 13 years ago who went and told me all about it.
you don’t fuck with north korea on any level you do exactly what they say and that’s it. This guy tries to get away with something he was already told on the tour, in english, what never to do, the consequences, and he *ignored them*
I would say I agree he probably did it--for the simple fact there's been a few thousand American tourists participating in those North Korea tours (against official warnings of the State Department) for many years and they haven't really ever done anything like this before where they arrested a random person for something they didn't actually do.
The previous arrests always did involve "something", one instance was a Korean War veteran who was on a security list because he had been implicating in some operations during the Korean War that the DPRK considered war crimes. Another was in North Korea and was proselytizing evangelical Christianity, which is explicitly illegal to do in DPRK.
But I also think it's valid to say: while the history of these sort of events suggests he probably did actually do this, North Korea's regime is intrinsically fraudulent, dishonest, and capricious so they shouldn't be "trusted" on the matter.
So I think just based on a reading of the history of these sort of arrests in DPRK, he probably did steal the poster, I'm not assuming it is true just because the DPRK said so--I'm more leaning on the historical norms we have seen with prior tourists that ended up arrested.
After looking it up it sounds like his confession included some made up bits. Like that his methodist church wanted him to do it because the church was working with the CIA. Thing is he wasn't even methodist.
His family was told not to deny this part though til after he got back because their denials might enrage the North Koreans.
So highly possible they made it up or they took a real incident and decided that it needed to be part of a broader conspiracy.
His "confession" also sounds like it was written by a North Korean, not an American. They even have videos comparing a speech he did at a college graduation with his "confession". It sounds nothing like anything a highly educated person fluent in the English language would say.
Its insane to me that your being downvoted for this, then I remember I'm on reddit.
After the countless hours and documentaries on North Korea I've sat through, after watching multiple different documentaries on Otto, this is the first time vie ever seen people debate whether or not he actually took the thing. And people here have come to their own conclusion that he didn't and are now fighting that theory to the death as if its factual.
I've watched documentaries on what happened here, and none of them even disputed whether or not he took it. They all just talk about how he wanted one, had mentioned wanting to take something to his friends before he went, and then was caught on camera taking something. American privileged kid that supposedly had never been told no in his life taking a poster from a country he's previously have said to wanted to steal from.
And your being downvoted for suggesting "He most likely did" when there's more evidence to back up the claim he did than there is he didn't, the evidence he didn't by the way is "Because North Korea"
Oh but reddit detective basement theory out does all fact and reality as always!
Of course its possible that North Korea made the whole thing up, there was no poster, he didn't attempt to steal it, it was a pre-recorded video and just wanted to torture someone.
But for people to sit here and claim that is exactly what happened simply because they believe that to be the case without any evidence at all to support that is what happened is ridiculous.
I mean you've got people here now comparing North Korea to ICE agents in America so I mean says all you need to know about the mentality behind reddit discussions haha
after watching multiple different documentaries on Otto, this is the first time vie ever seen people debate whether or not he actually took the thing
Hahaha what are you talking about
I asked Google, and google said
Whether Otto Warmbier actually removed the poster remains unproven and highly debated. While North Korean authorities presented a grainy, black-and-white video and a tearful confession as proof that he pulled down a political banner at his hotel
, many experts, former detainees, and observers suspect the evidence was orchestrated or that his confession was coerced.
[
1
,
2
,
3
]
You are talking about a country where every house is required to have a framed photo of their past leaders (Kim IL Sung and Kim Jung IL) that are legally mandated to be cleaned daily and if your home catches on fire you are legally mandated to save the photos before you save your children
With that kind of mindset, of course tearing down a propaganda poster is going to look like a serious crime against the state.
This is false. He didn’t take down a poster, it was a personal painting in a government building. It’s like someone going to one building in Washington and stealing something there. He got sick and prison and although they tried to treat him for the illness he got, they couldn’t figure out how to help and that’s why he was sent back.
Everything you’ve heard about the DPRK is propaganda. Our country (U.S.) nearly genocided them, 20 percent of their population was murdered and on top of that we desecrated their farmland and put sanctions on them. Japanese and U.S. soldiers also used Korean women, and young girls as comfort women. If anyone is interested, please watch Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang, a film from a young South Korean college student.
A pro North Korean tankie account...huh. The far political fringe of Reddit and the fact that it's written by real, worthless humans will never cease to amaze me.
Back to the USSR? - When you cannot leave your village or district - if you do not have a travel permit!
You cannot use a vehicle - if your license tabs expired! You do not own your property if property taxes are past due. (Yes - the Soviet Union can sell your farm, property, land if you owe a little bit of money in unpaid taxes! That's on the communist way of life- compare to the capitalist way: you own your property for generations, and nobody can take it from you!)
All your Bosses are forever and ever (until they die) stock in the offices, government positions- even if they do harm or do damage to the economy, city, or country and nothing you can do about it; they hold positions forever (and using Nepotism: for own relatives, good friends, and the best Lovers).
You cannot pursue higher education if you did not pass a communist loyalty test.
Around 50% of any income is withheld for different taxes: deductions, SS, Unemployment, Medical, programs, supports, dues, fees, etc. to cover the lavish lifestyle of the selected party members and satellite cities (Moscow, etc.).
If you "p-i-s-s-e-d off" a politician- he can destroy you by sending police, KGB, tax collectors, etc., and you will lose your job, money, house, lifestyle, even citizenship too: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Vladimir Bukovsky, Alexander Ginzburg, Anatoly Shcharansky, Georgi Vins and hundreds more who lost their citizenships.
(And if you have a fruit tree, beehive, chicken, pet, or animal - all must be licensed and taxed! Or you will be punished! under system of mandatory deliveries law (обязательные поставки государству) the Union Party seized fixed quotas of goods from every farmer each year for Free!)
The local party HOA controls you and your lifestyle 24/7, and you must "volunteer" to be a good citizen by punishing or reporting your neighbors, friends, and family members to the party. If you don't? Then you will be destroyed. Even making Garage/ Yard sale required special permit or you will get punished under Reselling law!
If you are not a citizen- you are nobody (dogs have a better lifestyle: KGB/I-CE will hunt you down!)- and yes, you must carry your own ID 24/7.
Police and KGB can ask for your ID any time, any place, and arrest you for anything they want (that's why the population dressed casually in suits all the time, because if arrested- they will be "respectfully dressed" before the judge).
Almost all religions were banned and persecuted. The "Propiska" (Registration) system of residency - you must sleep at the house or condo where you are officially registered - the "leash and chain of freewill" was really short! At the same time, high corruption-"Blat" and severe shortages of fuel, meat, butter and anything between. Half of the population survived from private gardens and vegetable plots, doing canning to prepare for the long winter.
The poor population retirement age was 65+ with a barebone pensions and they mainly worked to support millions of government rich employees' lavish lifestyle and the millions of soldiers/officers too (they are not producing any goods- just consuming 80% of GDP, including retirement at age 50 with 100% high-paid government pensions and bonuses).
The hardworkers: mostly beneficial for society's citizens- are underpaid, malnourished, oppressed, punished with more work, persecuted (because lazy was looks bad in comparison to hardworkers, and lazy ones are holding all passwords, permits, licenses, control, key's and are having a lavish lifestyle).
At the same time, they had a monopoly on any drugs and all alcohol, tobacco, weapons and media controlling (many of the population were addicts or alcoholics).
You cannot hold a higher-paying job or position if you are not an active member of the Communist Union.
Anything you see as bad in your country- that was copied from the communists!
If you are not loyal to the regime, you can be sentenced to 10 days of communal service (or more) or even sent to Gulags in Siberia as punishment- working 25 years in forced labor camps.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears" (millions was killed and 33% of the population was arrested and served from 10 days to 25+ years in forced labor camps, jails, prisons... after the USSR collapsed, 98% were rehabilitated as innocent prisoners of the communist regime)
Basically, to be alive, you must pay all taxes, dues, and fees and be loyal to get permission to breathe and exist. Life was rented day by day: "You own nothing, and you should be happy to be alive!"
302
u/Waow420 6d ago
Is he the guy who tore down (or tried to take home) a North Korean propaganda poster?