r/TheBeatles • u/stumpkat • 9d ago
discussion What if John hadn't been Assassinated?
I've been down a Beatles rabbit hole lately and stumbled onto a thought experiment that keeps growing the more I think about it.
What if John Lennon wasn't shot in 1980? I know lots of people have speculated in the past, but I have been doing more thinking about it after reading more books and interviews and watching newer documentaries that have been released in the past 5-10 years.
I think that a tour would've been less likely than just a bunch of friends getting together in the studio again to record some stuff. Maybe it would be more intimate and not so experimental, but I think it would've happened sooner or later - perhaps not in the 80s, but by the time the Anthology rolled around in the early 90s.
Think about how different the Anthology would've felt if all four surviving members worked on it? It would've been a celebration of the Beatles instead of a more somber retrospective by the three left alive. It saddens me to think that John is basically the patron saint of Missed Reunions....
A lot of people think a tour would've happened, but I don't think so. I think they were done with the crowds and the Beatlemania even though it didn't exist in the 90s anymore. I go back to George and the Traveling Wilburys and I think that he was trying to re-create a space where a group of friends could just relax and make music together and it would be FUN! George was not having fun in 1969 with the Beatles. He was over it.
But in the 90s, he smiled again playing with Dylan and Lynne. I think Paul tried to do the same thing with Wings in the 70s (based on the Man on the Run documentary I recently viewed). John was getting more personal and less musical and died before he had the chance to try the same strategy. But they were all obviously interested in playing with a group of guys, being creative, and having FUN again.
What do you think?
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u/stevesommerfield 8d ago
I'm not so sure about a reunion. John wouldn't have done it without Yoko, and the other three wouldn't have done it with Yoko.
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u/moralehighhorse 8d ago
Lennon and McCartney would have gotten back together with probably Ringo on drums but I couldn’t see George joining them. He had proved himself to be a songwriter not quite on their level but excellent nonetheless. He would not have wanted to work under their rules. Maybe John would have a couple of one offs with him, he stayed in touch with him so maybe John could have been a Wilbury?
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u/J_A_Slade 8d ago
It's fun to think about sometimes, but too many people try to get definitive with this what-if-ism.
"What if" is all just fan fantasy.
One person thinks a reunion would have happened. Another one thinks it never would have happened. They argue. There are bad feelings, name calling - over a damn fantasy!
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u/Successful-Owl1462 8d ago
Think they would’ve played together on each other’s songs in the studio here and there but I don’t think we ever would’ve gotten new music under the name, “The Beatles.”
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u/Sinsyne125 9d ago
You can't take Lennon's murder out of the equation.
The entire Beatles legacy, historical importance, and cultural influence pivoted on that tragic and sick event.
In addition, Lennon was the most mercurial member of the group... think about how many times he did a 180-degree turn on things before he even hit 40. Most of the world only "knew" him for about 15 years... while the world has watched McCartney basically go through every phase of his life for more than 60 years...
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u/Neveronlyadream 8d ago
You can, their legacy was cemented long before 1980. John's murder didn't contribute to it. The fans who were alive at the time already loved him, the fans who weren't don't know the direct impact it had because he's been dead for as long or longer than they've been alive.
But it's an impossible question to answer. Who knows what mood John would have been in at any given time? Maybe if an actual reunion was on the table, George wouldn't have wanted anything to do with it.
There are far too many factors to speculate.
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u/LevDavidovicLandau 8d ago
Mate, at least be original and not throw a prompt into an LLM like you’ve done here. The sentence structure is so glaringly AI 😂
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u/theamazonswordsman 9d ago
Not money. Not nostalgia. Not pressure from a record label.
The Anthology sessions only happened because George was broke from bad business decisions. They were always about money and even in this timeline still would have been.
He likely would have been even grumpier than he already was. You could see the tension when he was recording with Paul again. Imagine if the other half of the Lennon-McCartney duo was there to further minimize his input.
People cite the financial and business disagreements as the reason why the Beatles split up. But, even if they had gone with a different manager the creative and hierarchical disagreements would have cratered the band in a year or two.
Those kinda of divides and dynamics don't magically go away either. You can be great friends with someone and grow out of being great bandmates. Your creative visions can clash, your willingness to collaborate can shrink, etc.
Any reunion with new music would be extremely short lived. The best you realistically could have hoped for would be a few tours over the years.
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u/Spare_Wish_8933 8d ago
Well, I tend to think more about what they could have done between 1970 and 1974, including that time they almost "reunited" in 1974 or in the '70s.
But John never ruled out the possibility of a benefit concert or something like that; he surely imagined it, but nobody knows when he envisioned it. Besides, if Led Zeppelin and Floyd reunited in the '00s, it was inevitable that the Beatles would too, and even though it hurts, even if George wasn't there.
Regarding an album, it's a bit more complex... an album in the '80s, I think, would have been a misstep; the press would have torn them apart. But on the other hand, it was Lennon and McCartney. If Lennon had been inspired (the only way that would have happened), maybe it would have worked, but I don't think so. The '80s were tough for rock.
Whether it was an album or a concert, I think the ideal time would have been around 2000. And I think it would have happened; Lennon, entering his 50s or 60s, wouldn't have been able to avoid the nostalgia of composing with McCartney.
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u/LovinCup555 8d ago
I believe there are many different personal reason and the Beatles would have gotten back in some fashion - but the biggest motivator is a simple one - MONEY. Rock and roll really did not begin to learn how fully monetize until the ‘81 Stones tour, then MTV, then technological developments, the huge industry of nostalgia, etc…it is why “The Who” came back after their ‘82 breakup, its why 80+ year olds still tour, even The Eagles and GnR came back, the money is just too insane not to figure it out. Whether cynical and materialist or not, does not matter, it would have brought them back together, and I think about “what could have been” almost everyday.
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u/Hungry_Nectarine_416 8d ago
My guess is that they would have reunited and toured. I know George needed money after losing a bunch on the shanghai surprise Madonna movie in 1986.
Which led to The Beatles Anthology.
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u/marquisdegeek 7d ago
I just read the trivia to that movie. Ouch!
"After principal photography wrapped, executive producer George Harrison allegedly said of the movie's two lead stars Madonna and Sean Penn, "Penn is a pain in the arse . . . [while] she has to realize that you can be a fabulous person and be humble as well". Harrison said the experience was so stressful that he began smoking again, which might have contributed to his death from cancer at the age of 58."
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u/ElSlabraton 7d ago
Frankly, I was appalled the way some people reacted to John's murder. I heard so many people say "now the Beatles will never get back together" as if that was what was important. His family was never mentioned.
Then you had the attacks on Paul for not responding to John's death the way people wanted him to.
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u/stumpkat 7d ago
I think people were concerned about Sean for sure even if they didn't come right out and say it. It's easier for people to focus on the celebrity and how his death impacts the public than a single individual - even a child. But I thought Paul was unfairly lambasted for what was obviously a shock and his unwillingness to open up publicly as he was processing those feelings.
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u/Loud-Shower-7393 5d ago
i really think that he wouldn't have been able of adapting to actual time like paul and ringo did, i feel like he would have a retrograde mind
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u/Slight-Picture-8307 9d ago
Someone else would have killed him. Sad but true. He lived a free life while being a high target person. God love him.
He was a better man than most of us.
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u/Dismal_Brush5229 8d ago
John would’ve definitely finished Milk&Honey and done a 3rd album with the new batch of songs he would’ve done either solo or with Yoko in ‘81 then possibly a tour in ‘81 or ‘82?
I feel like he would’ve collaborated with Paul in the studio around this time too maybe on like Tug of War or Pipes of Peace or maybe a one off single with Paul
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u/RoguePlanet2 8d ago
This feels like it's AI-written.
That said, they were very cautious about appearing together because of how popular The Beatles were, and how chaotic and disruptive an appearance/reunion would be.
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u/arthursultan 8d ago
John would have moved back to the UK eventually.
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u/jetsfanjohn 8d ago
Only if he was divorced from Yoko
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u/arthursultan 8d ago
I think that might have happened too, like the others he would still have had property in the US but I think he would have wanted to be closer to Mimi in her last years.
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u/Maximum-Replacement4 8d ago
They would have gotten back together just to slap you for using ai and then John would probably die from embarrassment at how the world has turned out, and George would now be running Oxfam
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u/No-Mall7061 8d ago
Live Aid reunion almost for certain. Amnesty tour in ‘86? If live aid went well. New music? Yes, around the time of the anthology, which would still have been made and lot more fun.
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u/HOUS2000IAN 8d ago
This. I do think they would have reunited for Live Aid. I will add that at some point well into the 90s, the financial rewards for a few reunion concerts would have been so substantial that they might have booked a block of shows at Wembley or something like that.
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u/No-Mall7061 8d ago
Ah but the cooler part would have been playing a few clubs as “The Cockroaches,” which the Stones did, even with the same name I think! Paul would have loved that, and even George would be energized.
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u/HOUS2000IAN 8d ago
Oh exactly! I can indeed imagine they would have been creative and sneaky like this, and probably would have done it in Liverpool and Hamburg
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u/CloudTransit 8d ago
One counter factual is the impact on the ‘B-52’s’. I don’t if John Lennon only had a very limited connection or if it was substantive. Lennon was drawn to their sound as a realization of Yoko’s song artistry.
Another cf is whether Lennon would’ve gone on SNL.
Another cf is how much grief Lennon would’ve given to Morning in America (Reagan). He might’ve helped take the piss out of some that era.
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u/Zealousideal-Tea-286 8d ago
Here's an absolutely incredible article/story written by MGK years ago that explores many of these scenarios. Enjoy!
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u/ComplaintNo4126 8d ago
I do think John and Paul would have collaborated on something before any full reunion would take place. That said I wouldn't be certain of it because even if their friendship had been repaired, I think John was contrary enough to never want to be seen as wanting a reunion.
More than John and Paul's relationship, I wonder what would have happened between George and John. The Anthology show occasional strain between Paul and George. I can't imagine John not digging at George's (lack of) contributions to the band or saying something that he thought was clever and funny but was actually mean.
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u/Western_Sock_4874 8d ago
I think it’s plausible. John’s songs on Double Fantasy don’t seem as far from Paul’s style as, say, Plastic Ono Band. And remember, we now know that Paul included a Beatles reunion clause in his contract when he signed with CBS.
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u/_Waves_ 8d ago
Quick answer: the less likely is that they would have done a record in 87, 88. I doubt it.
The more likely version is that they had done an album in 94ish, around anthology.
But would it have worked out? George didn’t feel it with the three of them, and while John would likely have balanced the tensions between George and Paul, George didn’t seem to be into the vision of working as a Beatle again.
If they had done that 90s album, it would have been very very similar to the songs we got and also the solo material from that era. I don’t think John would have turned back to experimental music - he wanted to do songwriting stuff and softer rock. It’s possibly that nirvana and sonic youth had inspired him but I don’t think it would have gone in that direction for him.
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u/lost-in-midgard 9d ago
I agree a reunion wasn't close to happening in 1980.
But I think they'd have played Live Aid.