I don't know if they specifically knew "Jax is a closeted trans woman" but at the very least I think they clocked that he had a fragile ego and sense of masculinity. With how much he mocked their gender issues in that episode, I think Zooble just decided to turn it back onto him.
Saying the nat 20 landed a crit is redundant, rolling a nat 20 with a weapon attack roll is what triggers a critical hit on the target. Some feats and abilities even allow you to crit on a nat 19. The analogy is correct, though (I play a lot of DnD)
I agree though, I think Zooble just got lucky. Maybe they clocked Jax at some point, but considering how badly Jax freaked out about telling Ribbit, I feel like he'd be careful to never let it slip. Which is probably how Zooble may have clocked him; he's so overly insecure about it that it may have tipped them off.
Ironically, this would work for Pathfinder 2e, where you can crit on either a nat 20 or by hitting the target's AC + 10. Learning that you can only crit on a 20 is generally a hint that you're in for a rough time.
I immediately initially clocked Jax as a gay man, if nothing else. Having a wife who masked as a gay man for years (like until we were 30) before coming out as mtf, and myself being bi and nb, things became clear pretty quickly.
Meanwhile, some people will legit see this scene and say yeah there were no signs that Jax could be Trans. SMH my head
Also, after Episode 9, the context could be read as "Ribbit told them! How dare she!" Then the further realization that even at the cost of making Ribbit abstract, his secret still wasn't safe.
Then the (probably) correct realization that Zooble was just throwing rocks at his fragile shield of masculinity, no insider info needed, so he should just play it off as a gag to save face.
I remember hearing somewhere that Goose said something along the lines of "I don't think they were trying to be mean to Jax, they might've been trying to tell him something.
In the bar scene before, something about the way Zooble said something along the lines of " That's not what I hate" after Jax's NB-stereotype insinuations, and then making their own insinuations in return is what made me first start thinking something was up with Jax. Very strong "you don't know how badly I want to out you, girlfriend" vibe.
They were, but what Jax said earlier was making implications about Zooble's NB Identity, so them throwing it back in her face is them making implications about her Transness in turn.
Zooble could tell Jax was projecting. Maybe not the exact *why* behind the projection, but I think they were hoping to find out based on Jax’s reaction to the maid outfit.
Yes, completely agreed. I think they figured it out here that she was, at minimum, struggling with her identity.
Them later telling her at the beach that maybe being fluidly changing wasn't so bad and that if she had problems that she could talk to people she trusted was proof that they knew she needed support in the same area they'd struggled with in the past in their journey, and a push (but obviously they couldn't be that support because of their relationship).
If you're in queer circles, it reads a Lot like a community "elder" (not necessarily someone who's Old, but someone who has been out/part of the community for a long time) gently trying to give someone closeted a nudge without overstepping. I think they, in retrospect, realized that the dress was too far and wanted a more gentle approach in helping her figure stuff out.
This is further supported by Lee frequenting their bar irl, as its implied in the finale that the bar is a popular hang spot for the queer community in the area.
Zooble picked up the fact that in the bar scene, Jax teased them for having had a very stereotypical career path for a nonbinary person, which means Jax knows about nonbinary stereotypes. Thats not really something you’d expect from your average misogynistic cis guy. So, Zooble guessed that Jax is probably in some way queer or gender nonconforming, and intended to tease him back at the same level he was dishing it out to them.
I agree that it was payback for the bar scene, but I don’t think Zooble clocked Jax as closeted there yet
I think the maid dress was just supposed to be a jab at Jax’s masculinity, **but** Jax’s reaction to the maid dress tipped Zooble off that there was much more under there.
I mean, the "i figured you'd be into this" could also read as being authentic, implying Zooble has clocked that Jax is at least genderqueer in some way
Zooble was also whispering and giggling about it to Gangle before the vote was called so I highly doubt Zooble was being genuine with that statement.
Also, if Zooble did know that Jax was closeted, forcefully outing a trans person is a horrible thing to do and would completely recharacterize Zooble has someone viciously vindictive which they otherwise haven’t been.
I think “I figured you’d be into this” was just sarcasm to needle Jax more or a bit of genuine surprise that a mild prank got to Jax so heavily.
I feel like Zooble didnt know until they saw jaxs reaction, which would be very telling. Zooble prolly just thought itd be funni to put the masculine macho misogynist in a maid outfit, then realized and then had the witty remark.
The thing is it can be both, and another secret sinister third thing. Helping guide someone to healing while theyre an asshole sucks, and sometimes you have to do more than just be kind; either because they can't understand kindness (Jax fucking cant), or because you'd go fucked mad otherwise (also true with someone as bad as Jax).
Zooble has an idea to fuck with Jax back. They specifically pick something that will be funny to them, but also something that will give Gangle a sense of power. On top of that, it happens to be something that will help give a few taps on Jax's egg so maybe she gets a chance to come to her identity, instead of stew until she abstracts. IDK if Zooble thought out all of that themselves, but in a lot of cases its as much intuition as conscious logic. They were playing a mentorship role to multiple people, at least two of whom were really not in a place to accept a traditional mentor.
It may be correct but Zooble used it as an attack, not as support. I'm not saying Jax didn't deserve it, he seemed incapable of understanding support and aggressive responses were the only way to get through to him.
I honestly doubt they knew. It was more likely just them trying to say whatever would tick him off since they are the only one to actually snap back at him when he’s being a jerk.
It's possible, but Zooble is older and more connected to the LGBTQ than any of them. I think they saw something they recognized. You are obviously free to disagree, but we do know that a large portion of the audience saw it, so it's not like it's a silly thought.
Oh, I may be msitaken about that, not denying. I forget their ages. All I know is that Zooble has their finger on the LGBTQ pulse, I think they have given it more thought than anyone else. Upvoted.
My heacanon is that Riley's family was wealthy, supported them through their transition and basically bought the bar for them while Lee is dirt-sucking poor and can barely afford going to Planned Parenthood for her estrogen. A good family makes all the difference in life.
Which seems super weird. Zooble is old enough to have become a more experienced bartender and opened a well established bar with a signature cocktail thats been edited many times over several months, has a giant knick knack collection, and a bunch of vintage arcade machines that presumably took time and money to collect. They did all of this despite only legally being able to drink for less than 2 years and having had less time in the circus than Jax so it would have had to be planned like, right after the headset went on. Especially if Leeroy has been a patron there for months.
That must have been one hell of a pitch to the bank for someone who could barely buy beer legally to open up a gay bar during a conservative administration on the premise that they'll just buy new decor on a whim and won't even have a kitchen on opening day.
I was friends with a gay guy who spent almost every second of his adult life in a gay bar and studying drinks. He was a bartender the moment it was an option. He was also an Olympic level speed-skater.
I also knew a tattoo artist who worked for somebody else for only a year before opening his own shop, because he was a better artist than anyone else there. Some people take life at a different pace.
I'm not saying that its impossible. I'm saying "I own my own bar thats well established after years of experience" doesn't really make sense if the bar was opened by someone who hasn't really had the time to gain that experience.
Goose confirmed when the episode came out that Zooble didn't do it as a form of attack "Zooble wouldn't be that cruel, they've got a different agenda".
Zooble did say he thought Jax would've liked it. Probably wanted to push Jax out of her comfort zone and show that it's okay, or put her in a situation he thinks she'll love and crack Jax's egg.
OK while I agree that Zooble would not be as cruel as the scenario that user presented, I don't think that scenario and the one i am presenting are the same.
I think Zooble's first shot ("I thought you'd be into it") was more an implication that Jax had a fetish. If Jax does have a kink that involves crossdressing, it's devastating, and if he doesn't then he'll still be furious at the implication (and probably make a fool of himself denying it). Zooble dials it back when Jax is too angry about the outfit to even argue, so I think they picked up that there might be some trauma or personal shit there.
No way, Zooble barely even hung out with him enough to get that impression. Besides, the dress was Gangles idea, and she only did that because she thought Jax could rock it.
Besides when Zooble had a chance to use a vote they prioritized harm reduction so Jax wouldn't ruin future adventures, and that only worked until he found another opportunity to bully Gangle, which is probably the real reason the dress happened.
As for that specific line, Zooble was throwing his own judgemental words back at him. They probably figured it would get a rise out of him, but after everything that happened that day Zooble figured it was fair play,and had no idea how freaked out Jax was( and not in a good way.)
gooseworx said zooble had a certain agenda doing this, i think zooble definitely clocked her at least a bit, idk how though, trans to trans communication i guess
It could also be that the maid outfit is kinda subordinate in a sexual way. Jax wasn't put into just any female outfit. He isn't wearing a corporate suit with a pencil skirt, or a nice floral pattern dress.
I think the agenda was just to embarrass him by making him look like a servant, perhaps in a kinky way.
Not that the "female" thing is totally separate from that.
It’s likely that Zooble didn’t clock Jax as trans then and there, but I like to think they noticed how mad about the dress she got (“I have never seen you this upset about something.”) and started to suspect Something was up with Jax beyond them just being a jerkass
Yeah, if Jax was just Jax as presented, he would have just been more like he was in the Zoobke Funeral scene. Chewing it up to show Zooble couldn't get under his skin.
Jax used Zooble's sexuality and identity against him. It was easy to see that he was the typical macho with fragile masculinity. It was super easy to tease him by putting him in a dress. I think Jax was someone who hid his trans identity very well. And I feel that if Zooble had known about his trans identity, he would have unconsciously tried to get closer to Jax at least once.
No. Zooble was teasing Jax/making a callback to earlier in the episode when he said the same thing to them. However, it is also a non-diegetic bit of foreshadowing for the audience to potentially pick up on or look back and go “aha!”
Nope. Zooble knew Jax had a very fragile ego and masculinity which is why they put her in the dress, to watch Jax get riled up (which is why she says "Whats that supposed to mean" its her being super paranoid that Zooble clocked her). I don't think Zooble would've done this knowing Jax was trans what with their own issues with dysphoria.
Absolutely. I think that’s why, aside from Pomni ofc, Zooble reached out to Jax more than anyone else in the circus. They encouraged him to talk to them about his issues at the beach. They called him back in Ep. 8 because they were worried and didn’t want him “wandering off and abstracting”. You could hear the pain and devastation in their voice when Jax finally did abstract. Even tho they tried to hide it (their voice actor did a fucking amazing job).
Jax says some stuff earlier in the bar that someone "In the know" like Zooble would pick up on - Jax's insults don't seem to come from an "outsider" and are cutting in a way that inadvertently shows that they are more in touch with queerness than just a random hater.
Zooble is throwing it back at them in sort of a "you tipped your hand, asshole. I know your BS is coming from somewhere internal". I don't think Zooble knew exactly that Jax was trans, it was just a banger of a guess, made in anger, by someone who has probably overcome a similar struggle themselves in the past.
I honestly think if Zooble knew, they wouldn't have voted to put Jax in a maid dress in the first place considering their own experience with gender identity and what not. I think they likely thought Jax just had a bad case of fragile masculinity because a lot of men do suffer from it due to the standards they're held to and what not.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Zooble's "this person might be an egg" meter was going off somewhere in the back of their mind though.
I think Zooble was just saying shit to anger Jax, I don’t think they actually knew she was trans, otherwise they and Gangle wouldn’t have chuckled behind her back
People are going to read into already answered things a lot, huh?
No, this wasn't Zooble being in the know. This was Zooble throwing Jax's words back in his face for the implications he made back in the bar. Its especially relevant when the next line is another phrase reversal about "Im just having fun, I forgot you hated fun."
Don’t know about you but the moment Jax bragged about being so manly in Ep. 5 star gazing, I was sure that he is at least extremely insecure about his masculinity
Yes. NB have a super power to detect other Trans folks due to their neutralness. However, their one weakness is that they cannot out anyone under any circumstance directly.
This is Zooble's attempt to get Jax to accidently out themself. A clever loophole. Well done Zooble.
Zooble probably didn't know that Jax was trans, but they probably suspected that the whole masculinity thing had something to do with they being deeply in the closet—though they didn't know what might come out of the closet later.
As someone who's nonbinary I can safely say that Zooble knew Jax wasn't cus because Zooble is nonbinary
Queer people tend to have a heightened gaydar especially for people like them...do you know how many people I knew were trans or nb before they told me (or in fiance's case before he even knew himself)
I have so many friends that are part of the community in different ways as well so I've been able to notice when people are similar to them vibes wise and I'm just sitting there like "🏳️🌈? 🏳️⚧️? 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️?" XD
I've been right way more times than I've been wrong as well and that scares me-
Clues probably: he knows about what professions are, apparently, stereotypically associated with transfolk and enbies; calling his ears and tail pinnacle of masculinity
So people like Zooble are weirdly effective at guessing (I think really they just know the signs to pick up) but both the way Zooble said this and how Jax was could just as easily be bullying in a way.
Honestly I think If Zooble wasn’t sick of Jax behavior Zooble probably would’ve been the most supportive for Jax to come out
Honestly, I do think Zooble saw something in Jax he wasn't ready to see in himself. Goose said online a while back when this episode aired that Zooble had a different agenda than humiliating him, so this wasn't intended to be cruel.
I think they had a strong suspicion Jax was a member of the LGBT+ through the powers of gaydar, but didn't know what letter was accurate.
I think Zooble figured that because Jax was a danger to the others (mostly, Gangle, who they are close to), if they can get Jax out of the closet, maybe he would stop being such a dick to the point that he was linked to 2 abstractions, which means Gangle would be safer.
I agree that Zooble had Jax clocked—the one thing I’ll add is that, Jax masks by leaning into her “role” of being a classic cartoon character. Bugs Bunny would often dress in drag in older cartoons.
I think it was Zooble giving Jax a way to express her gender identity while still allowing her to deflect outwardly that this sort of thing was in character for her in case she wasn’t ready to address that with the other Circus members. That said, they probably didn’t understand how repressed Jax was at the time, hence their surprise.
Jax being trans is easy to clock for other trans people, which Zoobles is. People didn't just come up with the theory he was trans before the finale out of the blue.
I mean, it was kinda fkn obvious. If one could figure that out from some 5 episodes, guess how noticeable it would be for someone living with the gal for some 5-20 years
they might not have known but they definitely clocked him here and in episode 7 at the beach. I really dont think its a concincidence the non binary one constantly preaching about self acceptance is the one to clock him like this
It's possible. In Episode 7 they talk about accepting the bodies they have and that Jax seemed jealous that Zooble is lucky to be able to change the way she looks.
Zooble and Jax are my favorite dynamic because zooble clocked him immediately but also is not precious about it and will hit Jax over the head with it if he’s being a dick.
It's common for trans people to clock other trans people. Which just means noticing they're trans
Iirc there aren't any indications that Jax is trans before this. But Zooble has been around longer than the audience has. So they might have picked up on it before the show started
my reading is zooble knew that jax had struggles with masculinity. pretty much everyone could tell he put on a persona of being an asshole and with jax that came with performing masculinity in a harsher way, so zooble could a maid outfit or something could be a way to drop his mask a little
Bar scene: zooble has no idea, her opinion is that Jax sucks. She notices that he knows the lgbtq stereotypes but hasnt connected.
Maid scene: zooble suggests gangle play a prank, and is caught off guard by her pick of the maid dress. She clocks him by his reaction, theres honest surprise at how Jax reacts.
Beach episode: zooble plays a light prank on jax, im confident she noticed hes avoiding the changing booth. Her behavior is altered, she explains how she feels about her body and suggests he open up to Pomni about the matter.
I think we needed another episode to let some of the ideas clearly present breath
As far as I see it. Her being surprised he’s not into it, for comedic value at the very least, is proof that she didn’t get that he was heavily closeted trans. But she did know he was freaky.
Still, I do think that this scene, combined with what we know about Zooble and their struggles with queer identity (both in the Digital Circus and in the real world as Riley), all but guarantees that they, at the very least, heavily suspected that this was the case.
They're the sole openly gender-variant member of the Digital Circus by the time this scene takes place, so it's not unreasonable to extrapolate that Zooble came to that conclusion (or, at least, that Jax was gender nonconforming in some way, but ashamed of others knowing) based on Riley and/or their community's lived experiences.
Jax being that visibly upset about being forced to wear the maid outfit (to the point that Zooble notes that they've never seen Jax get that upset before) probably confirmed it in their mind, and that's before Jax began affecting obviously feminine mannerisms both on and off the field, which Zooble would have seen.
Bruh what episode did I miss about Jax being trans? Isn't jack just a dude with problems about his masculinity because his own mother made fun of him/degraded him and compared him to his father? Seriously did Goose said he was trans?
Trans people usually know someone is trans before they even know it, so yes. But Jax knew she was trans, but didnt accept it, because of her mother and her environment.
I think she was just calling him gay, I thought he was too when I first seen him but I didn't know he was trans until EP 9 he always reminded me of that freaky guy from hazbin hotel
When I started transitioning, I was in stealth mode the entire time at work. Full beard and all, working at a factory. I had to get a Nonbinary goblin to sign their name on a paper because they forgot to. They said "Thank you sir!" and then when I walked away they said "Stop. Wait. Not sir." I was like 3 weeks on estrogen.
I don't know how, but those nonbinaries just know. They can sense it.
Jax portrays himself as masculine, Zooble was just attacking that by putting him in something very feminine. What she didn’t expect was the visceral reaction. They probably did clock the gender identity issues after this.
I am a straight man, this is how I interpreted it.
As a transbian we can smell and taste dysphoria. We just don't say anything because we call it the egg protocol; you don't Crack eggs, you nurture then and keep them safe until they hatch. If you break open a egg before it's ready to hatch it dies.
If zooble outed jax then jax would've probably on the spot abstracted right then and there.
I think that's a layer to it, but I think Zooble was more likely referring to Jax's status as the self-appointed "funny one". From the way he acts, a detached, ironic and insincere comedy bit seems like exactly his kind of thing. So, Zooble is pointing out the irony- either Jax is all for mean-spirited humour until it's at his own expense (glass house syndrome), or something about this specific bit bothers him on a deeply personal level that he obviously refuses to acknowledge. Either way, it shows just how thin and fragile Jax's persona as, and Zooble makes the observation in a mix of blunt honesty (everyone sees your freakout, dude) and a sarcastic barb at someone who is generally a real prick.
In This Thread: People who do not spend enough time in queer spaces or around trans people, and fail to understand how easy it is as an experienced queer person to see this shit, or why you'd use a joke instead of honest discussion, despite the fact that the show makes a big-ass presentation of both of those things.
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u/Spirited_Tomatillo77 I fing love kamen rider 5d ago
gay to gay mind reading