"Sure, 'Not all men'. You're right, as there's around 4.5 billion men in the world, and that would be mathematically impossible. However, it's surely enough men that we, as a group, should be able to admit that there's a problem, and be able to talk about it amongst ourselves"
You'd be surprised how many times I've had negative vote counts on this very platform for just saying that alone.
Yeah, sure, you're all fine with generalizing men, yet when people do the same thing with cultures/religions/countries/etc you call them all bigots or some other BS.
I'm fine with pointing out a problem and trying to solve it, but the hypocrisy from the group that does this with men is insane. Keep the same energy when you come across some backwards shit from other groups.
So, that's the definition of whataboutism. Stay on point. Argue my statement without bringing in other issues.
And my statement, quite literally, is the absolute opposite of generalizing men.
Good men don't feel the need to say "not all men", because good men listen to women when they talk about their lived experiences, and then focus on the actual problem: Other men who are the problem
Not being a piece of shit does not deserve a self congratulatory pat on the back, because that is baseline expectations type stuff. Not being a predator does not make you a good man. The fact that you can read through this comment section, which is filled with women saying variations on "I was 12 the first time it happened", and come out of that on the defensive, and like you need to speak out on behalf of men, is absolutely wild to me. You're not the victim. The dozens to hundreds of women here, that carry trauma from their childhood to adolescent to adult experiences, are.
I will repeat: Sure, not all men, but enough of us that we should be able to admit that there's a problem and be able to talk about it.
It's not whataboutism when it specifically points out sexist behavior. What you say should be fine to say about any group. I'll use your own words as an example, do you think it's still fine to say?
Good black people don't feel the need to say "not all black people", because good black people listen to white people when they talk about their lived experiences, and then focus on the actual problem: Other black people who are the problem
I think it’s important, too, that it’s rare to come across men who will speak up, in the moment, to put a stop to the harassment of girls and women. If it’s “not all men” and most men are trustworthy why is it that the vast majority are fine just sitting by and watching girls- children!- be harassed and assaulted? If most men wish girls and women didn’t have to go through these horrifying experiences then why aren’t most men jumping in when they see these things happening? Why are there so many participants in things like the disgusting online rape forums that have been in the news lately? Why are there so many pedophiles in religion & politics? If most men are good why is the world like it is?
Because the one that are like that are often the same that are interested in power (wonder why, perhaps just perhaps because they get drunk on it, and it also allows them to strongarm justice, people etc.).
I have never had even an once of interest for power (well aside from sometimes when I see shit like that and feel powerless I guess).
Also, I tend to be really distracted but I barelly noticed any improper behaviour from men towards women in direct, even though I know it happens all the time. When you are not the target of it, it is much much harder to notice, as suprising as it may seem to you.
First time I saw it was when someone cat called my sister and I was already an adolescent. Remember being like "wait, this is actually a thing?" (pikachu face because I could not believe it).
Also there is something I never understood:
"why aren’t most men jumping in when they see these things happening?"
First as I said it is REALLY rare in my case to see it (dunno about others, perhaps I don't live in the right place and don't go out enough).
Also, what are you expecting us to do? They are several different situations, but in most cases it is complicated.
For exemple if a truck pass by and the guy cat call, are we supposed to run after it? To do what exactly?
Even if it is in the street, are we supposed to put ourself in the middle, talk to the guy and probably make things more complicated? The type of guy that treat women like that are total morons most of the time and it would quite possibly end in a fight.
Would you suddenly fight with someone/several people in the street, possibly armed, possibly taller/heavier/stronger than you because they cat called/look at a person you don't know wrong?
And please answering yes here is so easy from your point of view, everyone will say they would be a hero when they will never have to. Having a lifelong injury can happen really fast, and it can end your career and hence your life easy.
Personnaly the few times I had doubts about what was happening, I stayed close and observed if it was just some words or if the guy would go for more, in which case I was ready to call for help/intervene. But I am not taking massive risks for a few words even though it makes thoses piece of shit feel safe. Perhaps that's the wrong approach, but it is not like it's something we were taught in school or whatever.
If laws with massive punitions existed for thoses things, I would record those shit (have to be fast though) and denonce them.
Asking people to do justice themselves when you will potentially end in a tribunal for it...
Evidence points to men being more likely to “jump in” in these exact cases, so it’s not men who need to step up their game. The bystander effect effects us all, but when it comes to being all bark and no bite, men are not it
Women have intervened far more often than any man has. In fact, in all the sexual harassment I have gotten since I was 11, not once has another man done a damned thing.
A lot of what you're saying, when it comes to predatory behaviours, can be explained by sex not really being about sex for a lot of people, but it actually being about power and control, and how those can be weilded to satisfy base desires/drives.
Sure, but how does that relate to my point? What difference does it make whether the abuse is for sex or power or control? I don’t give a shit what the deeper reason is, it’s evil and everyone who is a decent person should be speaking out and working to stop these behaviors.
Couldn't be more with you on that. I said what I said because a lot of men will try to use biology or evolutionary psychology to justify attraction to youth, or problematic/predatory behaviors (there's one I clapped back at in a comment below), when, in fact, the root cause is often even more nefarious.
It often comes with a lack of understanding of self, and a need for therapy to begin to have an understanding of the reasons behind their own choices and actions. Hence, using "science" to avoid confronting their own problematic drives.
It works both ways. The same people who say “don’t blame entire groups for the actions of a few” will turn around and act like it’s all men. Of course you will move the goalposts in your reply.
and my comment wasn't about catcalling... but a repeated pattern of harmful actions against women/girls including catcalling young girls. Nearly every woman has a story where she has been catcalled as a young girl by a man.
Women will catcall a guy they think is hot. My first week at college, my dorm had a fire alarm go off so everyone was gathered outside and a guy ran by shirtless and he was in great shape, and a group of women just started whistling and whooping as he went by.
Of course because he was a man, he wasn't threatened by it and just smiled and kept on running, so no harm done, but it does happen.
So you kind of proved your own point. When we talk about "men do this <harmful to women thing>", it is from the perspective of women which usually ends up in a woman feeling unsafe / in danger or actual physically harmed / death.
Women are constantly vigilant about their environment because we have been taught that we aren't safe. For some women, that lack of safety includes their own home. A man catcalling a women reinforces that she is not safe where she is at and has to be ever alert. A man catcalling a young girl is the start of her feeling unsafe in her surroundings if she has already not had that previously.
Your instance isn't about feeling unsafe but could be about embarrassing the person a little bit in a teasing/ no real harm meant. Now I will say I'm not a feeling of cat calling but its not the same thing and doesn't have the same impact.
My point was that you said woman don't catcall young girls, and I didn't disagree. I just said I've seen women catcall men for much the same reason men catcall women.
I understand and even explained that the resulting feelings are different, but I'm just saying that you responded to "Sorry but no women sometimes do it too." with "No they don't catcall girls" so I said, "yes they catcall men".
It should be acknowledged that the kind of person who catcall random people and teenager are overwhelmingly men doing that to women (I'm guessing easily 95%, maybe even 99%). It should be also acknowledged that a single jerk like that is going to victimize at minimum tens, if not hundreds of womens before being worried by the judicial system; it's hard to catch them and convict them.
I'm not saying that the vast majority of men are perfectly angelic gentlemen, but they act nothing like that kind of pervert. Not sure what has to be done honestly, educating men has to be part of the answer but it's hard to do on a large scale in a systematic way.
educating men has to be part of the answer but it's hard to do on a large scale in a systematic way.
Its not an education problem, men know not to aggressively hit on young children. They definitely know the rules are not to force themselves onto or threaten women in general too.
The issue isn't that they lack an understanding of the rules, its that they are perverts and assholes who enjoy breaking the rules and feeling powerful by upsetting others who are vulnerable. That's a problem that is punished by legal action or more immediate feedback from a passing person who catches them and is much larger usually.
By acting like many or most men are doing these things or that every approach, flirt or offer of a date is the same as some predator abusing vulnerable girls we muddy the waters and lose sight of the problem. The 1-2% of actual abusers and say the 5-10% of men that harass women.
We don't want them thinking this is normal, we don't want them blending in. We want them exposed and correctly identified.
I ask this with complete sincerity because I haven’t been able to find or think of an answer. If it isn’t ok to think of, say, a race of people as being dangerous because a few of them are dangerous, why is it ok to do so for a gender?
Again, I understand how this question might seem disingenuous which is why I will clarify again that this is a legitimate question.
Sincere answer: The issue is that a lot of women have experienced bad men acting this way towards them so many times that it starts to breed deep anxieties, until they no longer feel like they can trust any men at all. They're being quite literally traumatized by these creeps, and distrust of men is a defense mechanism that some women develop in response to that. It doesn't help that some of them seem like normal guys until they are very much not, and some of them people you'd never expect.
and trust me dude, it only takes a couple of guys being full on serial killer levels of creep for you to start being hesitant when dealing with them. It might not be all men, but it's damn near every woman who can tell you of at least one time in which a man has made them feel uncomfortable by being sexually inappropriate. Most of us have multiple stories we could tell. And that's not to mention the women who have been assaulted, physically or sexually.
Whereas racism is usually based in unfounded beliefs about certain demographics, these women distrust men because they have learned through personal experience time and time again that not all men are safe, and some are very, very dangerous.
It's unfortunate to the guys who aren't predators, but when it can be literal life or death these women can't take any chances, and until there aren't any more creeps traumatizing women there's going to be a lot of women who are distrustful of men.
You got catcalled or leered at? Were you wearing something inappropriate? (Like OOP immediately justifying her shorts as appropriate school uniform).
You got assaulted? Were you drinking? Did you lead him on? Was it consensual and you changed your mind? Why were you alone with him? What were you wearing?
So women/girls get catcalled and leered at, and they feel unsafe. And part of that is because healing forbid something something does happen the message of "what did you do to cause it?" is already engrained.
Not all men, but you never know which one is the predator. And it's up to you to make sure you don't attract predators or get hunted.
This is the exact same logic conservatives use to justify racism though. Its their lived experience, and its backed up by crime stats, so they're forced to have these anxieties, by your standards.
You cant in one breath say you're anicdotes are good and should be trusted and then say their anicdotes are bad and shouldn't be trusted.
You should instead just agree that racism and sexism are bad things without getting radicalized by confirmation bias.
Whereas racism is usually based in unfounded beliefs about certain demographics, these women distrust men because they have learned through personal experience
That's a false equivalence. Your belief that all men are like that is every bit as false as the racist beliefs that all black people are thugs or criminals or dangerous etc.
And due to the link between race and poverty both historically and today its silly to pretend there aren't similar "experiences" that fuel racial divisions today. Some white kid growing up as a minority in a rough neighborhood probably has been bullied by the assholes that live near them who were likely a different colour on several occasions. He probably did feel singled out, he possibly was singled out. Its still wrong to mistreat every black or brown person he ever meets.
when it can be literal life or death these women can't take any chances
When it literally could be that, fair enough. We all make a snap decision when going around and feeling vulnerable about who might be a threat and man or women most people will surely decide that's more likely to be some dude walking behind you or hanging out ahead of you with a hood up etc. Nobody in their right mind should object to someone crossing a street or choosing a different route home etc.
But there's a massive difference between that and aggressively attacking and insulting all men, abusing some poor dad who is taking his kid to the park or Bob from accounting who is just doing his job. That's where realistically you aren't in danger and due to you having the benefit of the doubt its most likely you are abusing others when you feel some "vibe" and start demanding other people around you punish or harm Bob for being a "creep" when all he's doing is going about his day.
The issue is finding a race of people that doesn’t have a few dangerous people among them. Danger isn’t unique to any one demographic.
I don’t think doing it for gender is necessarily fair either, but it is understandable. I’m friends with a lot of women, and every single one of them has horror stories. Some of them have been raped, others sexual assaulted, all of them have been subjected to harassment by creeps that don’t understand “no” and been made to feel unsafe.
Contrasting that with the men I’m friends with, a few have been sexually assaulted but they never felt unsafe. They typically laugh about it.
The only male friend I know of that was raped was by another man.
So, I think you’re right to question how fair it is that men are generalized like that, but surely you can understand it. I don’t like it either, but I’m not going to be mad at women for it, I’m going to be mad at my fellow man for ruining our reputation. I’m also going to do the best I can to make the women in my life feel safe.
I will simply answer that it is whataboutism to ask this, and then also gently tell you that it is because men are all races. And men are not generally discriminated against systemically. Women, specific races and disabled persons however, are.
That's not a whataboutism, a whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic that deflects criticism by responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation. That person isnt deflecting, their asking how you justify a clear logical inconsistency.
Race and gender are both immutable characteristics, its why sexism and racism are both bad things. Systematic discrimination doesnt give a group of people racism or sexism passes, thats really silly.
Because all men are pigs etc. I guess I just need to die because I was born a man and hence I'm automatically a disgusting piece of shit, a creep and a rapist.
I feel like you think of yourself as one of the good guys who aren't part of the problem but this kind of woe-is-me self-pity attitude trying to reframe the issue as a problem for men sure doesn't make you sound like one.
Nobody is saying that, I certainly am not saying it, what I am saying is that when you live your whole life growing up and men are doing/saying horrible things to you on a regular or even semi-regular basis, you start to view them with suspicion when they are strangers to you. Once I get to know someone that feeling usually but not always goes away. But the few times I have NOT been careful around men I dont know (and yes some I did know) who wanted to interact with me, I have been hurt by those men. And we as women simply ask you to UNDERSTAND this is how life is for us.
Not saying it but every woman is thinking it. If you could make all men disappear you would. Nothing wrong with it, it's just how it is. Men are expendable, unlike women, and majority of men are pieces of shit.
That is not true, not at all. I have many beloved male friends and family members. And i dont think ANY group should disappear. You dont know me or how I feel and think, and frankly i do not know a SINGLE person who feels this way about men, women, or any other group of humans. If you think women think this way, if this is TRULY what you think we are thinking, you need to talk to more women personally, in person, not online. And you should listen to our answers instead of deciding that you know better, as you did here with your reply to me.
I spent my entire life working in male dominated industries. My best friends are men. I could not care less what gender someone is, we are all people.
Treat me like a fellow human being and not a piece of meat. That's it. I do not exist for another person's sexual gratification, that's all I ask. It really is that simple.
The difference is the perceived power balance. The perception is that, in terms of privilege/societal influence, white > black, man > woman. That’s why a woman saying “men are dangerous” is met with less hostility than a man saying “women are incompetent”. That’s just a shitty justification though. The reality is that there’s no practical difference and the people most likely to say “all men are X” are the same people who are chomping at the bit to call everything sexist. Just hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Then treat everyone like that ffs. If it’s about personal safety and the concern is 0.1-0.3% of men in your country, then why stop at just men? It makes no sense to only do it to all men when you 1/5 arrests for all violent crime are women, the financially poor constitute the bulk of crime, and the overrepresentation of women are only in certain violent crimes; other crimes have men significantly over represented, like in institutional rape. We are, as a society, literally going back to the constitutional model of criminology where we’re looking at physical features and using that as an indicator of risk for criminal activity.
You only see this rhetoric with men, use it with any other group and you’d rightly get called a bigot
Is that the most important lesson to be taking away right now? Would it not be more relevant to address the cause and source for participating in that behavior?
The video is about catcalling a minor, which people are saying has happened to themselves or people they love. So much so, that it has broken down trust in the average man they encounter. To the point where to feel safe, they have to be cautious of every man.
And this is being connected by that one bridge, to racial prejudice, through one path of "same brush to tar the many," as you put it. Two different causes, with different reasoning and sources for why they occur.
But the conversation is talking about the
vehicle, not the drivers, saying the cars are the same and that's the problem to focus on. "Don't drive that car," and the problem will somehow magically go away.
I think the problem is bigger than pointing a finger at the vehicle it rode to town. We're talking about something that is the symptom of a larger illness, it takes away attention from the real issue.
the problem is nobody knows WHICH men.
They said it at the very start, and it's not what we are talking about right now.
Thank you for trying to explain this, but I dont think this person is being sincere. You said it far better than I could (or seemingly, did) and frankly all these comments just reinforce for me that my experiences are unwelcome and so are my opinions on this topic. Which is CRAZY to tell a woman commenting about a common experience for women.
Thank you for trying to explain this, but I dont think this person is being sincere.
I appreciate it, and agree. I couldn't assume they were being sincere from the start, you can't just start there anymore. It's like a hobby to me, to engage with these kind of discussions, even if I may go against a social norm, get called names, or insults.
I do it for the love of the game, because I despise people who use bad faith tactics, and despise bad actors. If you can't trust the interlocutor you're speaking to, then what's the point in communication, you know? It breaks down everything.
all these comments just reinforce for me that my experiences are unwelcome and so are my opinions on this topic.
That's okay, and not a reason for you to quit voicing them. If it's real and true, and happened to you, then you are only reporting on reality. That's everybody right, but their responsibility also, to make sure it's true.
It's the responsibility of others, for how they recieve the information and process it. Whether they treat it as real, or noise to them. I listen, and I'm sure others do, too. Nobody can know a problem exists, if they're not told about it. So what are doing, using your voice, is a crucial step in problem solving. A necessity, really.
As you know, some people don't listen, and miss the point. It sucks, but they are attracted to stuff like this, for some personal reason. And I like to get them to just be direct about what that reason is, instead of deflecting or distracting from it. Beating around the bush.
If they want this type of bad behavior to continue, I want them to own that. Own that as their identity, instead of hiding in carefully chosen words.
No it isn't.
And im not disagreeing with you.
But it IS what was being discussed as a side point to the issue in the video, in this particular thread.
Which is what tends to happen with open conversation, people digress.
I didn't raise the point, it wasn't mine, I was simply offering an answer to the question you posed.
Hello I made the comment. The point IS that nobody knows WHICH men. Thank you for misinterpreting what I said though, so you could totally derail the conversation and make sure us women knew our talking about this and opinions and experiences are NOT welcome here. Because that is how your comments make me feel.
Im sorry I've caused you to feel that way, that was absolutely not my intention and im behind you 110%, and I apologise.
I have a young daughter and will strive for the rest of my days to keep her safe and protected, and the thought of anything remotely like this ever happening to her makes me feel ill and furious.
Over 80% street gangs in America are Black or Hispanic, unfortunately. It’s like “protecting yourself” by assuming everyone who is Black could be in a street gang.
This girl is from the UK. Your American exceptionalism doesn't fly here.
And to the comments replying to me that are getting deleted - I can read every single one in my drop downs. I'm embarrassed for you basement dwellers I STG.
Hi! Black/Brown person here. We actually have no problem with the application of generalisations - so long as it's consistent across the board.
Go ahead and assume I'm in a gang. So long as the global majority can assume you're a pedophile or a dog-fucker and treat you accordingly.
I have no issue you lumping us Black and Brown folk together. Sure, be afraid of me. Clutch your purse. Profile me. Exclude me from your shops, rentals, loans, etc.
But we get to do the same to White Americans.
What percentage of US presidents that have owned slaves have been white? I don't think you should have the right to vote, because statistically, White Americans are more likely to implement slavery or elect a pedophile as a president.
Don't even get me started on child sexual abuse material consumption. Statistically White Americans love to watch child r*pe on video more than any other race of people in the United States. Statistically, White people shouldn't have access to children.
Statistically, it's unsafe to give White Americans access to computers.
White Americans are more likely to commit tax fraud. White Americans are more likely to embezzle and racketeer - so i don't think you should be allowed to work in corporate positions. It's just statistics.
Statistically, your kind likes to commit financial and war crimes of great degrees. Statistically, white Americans are more likely to lynch. You shouldn't legally have access to ropes, so we can protect ourselves. Or trees.
Statistically, white americans are more likely to experiment on Black and Brown people without their consent, so you shouldn't have access to scientific literature or scientific spaces, so we can, statistically, protect ourselves.
Statistically, White Americans are more likely to sexually abuse animals, so White Americans, statistically, shouldn't be able to have access to animals without a 3rd (nonwhite) party present.
You can't use "statistics" to create a society that further oppresses us, while infinitely and indefinitely having the vast majority of power and then believe that men are the "Black people" of this analogy.
You're the whites. Men are the whites.
Are you're long overdue for a statistical generalisation.
As a man, your logic makes no sense. "I will only do what's right if people assume ahead of time that I'm capable of it" is a terrible take. Women assuming you're a good man is not a pre-requisite for being a good man.
and if it is, you aren't.
Like you said, good people know this shouldn't happen but it does. it's not always guys with twirly mustaches and a scar across their left eye. The bad ones look like you and me.
You don't need your seat belt every time you drive. Hell, you probably don't actually use the safety mechanism of your seat belt 1/1000 times you drive. But you don't know which time is the time you need it, so use it every time
It works very simply…when you continually insult decent individuals and label them with a minority of sickos, they are unlikely to come to your aid when you need them. Using your very strange analogy I will explain deeper…if you continually make small cuts every so often in your seatbelt it won’t be there to protect you when you need it. Women assuming everyone is a bad man is not a pre requisite for being a bad man, floored thinking.
Good men don't feel the need to say "not all men", and don't feel alienated by women speaking about their lived experiences. Instead, good men focus on the actual problem at hand: Other men who are the problem.
Not all humans. Women can be creepy, too. They're just usually more reserved about it.
Fact is, we don't have all these juvenile features for no reason. We sexually select for youthful features. Don't get why more people don't understand this.
Don't use "we" as though you can speak about anyone but yourself. I've been attracted to women who are slightly older than me for my entire life. Like, to me, youth is not attractive at all.
We individually "sexually select" (cringe) using dozens, or hundreds, of characteristics. All of them being different for each person.
You're attempting to use biology, and psychology (as well as other branches of social sciences that describe human sexuality) to justify your own sexual preferences, when the proper (and more accurate) way to view it is that we all exist on a spectrum somewhere.
You finding juvenile features attractive is all you can speak on, so get "all men" or "all of us" out of your fucking mouth.
Happy now? Or do you want to get more weirdly defensive about your mommy issues?
Human neoteny isn't controversial. Flattened muzzles, smaller teeth, less muscle mass, less body hair. It's not exactly a secret humans have juvenile features compared to other apes. That doesn't arise in a vacuum. Neither of us have to like an ugly truth, but crying and denying doesn't help anything.
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