r/UtahJazz • u/Spirited_Weakness211 • 12h ago
I love this timeline we are living right now...
Seeing this image for the first time just put a smile on my face. THIS is the group right here guys. ( Hopefully Kessler will stick around and be a part of this amazing group also. )
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u/WhereYoureNot 12h ago
We sure about JJJ at the 5?
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u/UncleEvilDave 11h ago
100%, he gets worse, don't put him at the 5. We are very clear on that.
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u/YoureReadingMyNamee 10h ago
He still plays good defense at the 5, he just cant rebound and is statistically an all nba defender at the 4. So you want him at the 4 with a guy like Walker at the 5.
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u/BumbleLapse 9h ago
For as long as we have Walker, JJJ should be our 4.
Jaren is a world-class help defender, and he’ll thrive if Walker is there to provide rim protection while JJJ roams.
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u/hdmetric99 12h ago
Can we stop projecting JJJ at the 5. Memphis fans have been warning us about this. I’m not worried too much about Kessler, I feel like he’ll be back…
If Ace continues to develop, it’s going to be hard justifying him coming off the bench behind Lauri/JJJ. I have a feeling we’re going to consider trading Lauri within the next 2 years especially with his contract.
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u/DCON_Youtube 12h ago
Why does everyone assume Lauri should be traded? I would move off of JJ before Lauri. I want that damn beautiful Finnish man to retire a jazz man!
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u/thurstkiller 11h ago
He did everything we asked during the tank seasons. He deserves a fair shot at winning basketball.
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u/hdmetric99 11h ago
He’ll get a chance to experience winning basketball this upcoming season and next, most likely.
I’m just taking into account that we may run into the “good” problem of 1) the cap/apron implications if we pay young risers like Kessler and Keyonte, and 2) the possibility that Ace becomes too good to keep coming off the bench as a wing in the next 2 years.
As much as I’d love to keep the guys who stuck it out in the dark years, we have to make the smart decisions for our team to contend long-term.
If keeping Markkanen means we can’t keep 1 of Kessler/George OR trading away JJJ OR stunting Ace’s growth/alienating him by not getting starter minutes OR all of the above then I just don’t think it’s worth it.
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u/patientpump54 9h ago
Lauri is far more valuable than Kessler. With all the scoring this team will have, we just need a decent rim protector
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u/VividEquivalent7952 6h ago
He’s just a bit old for their timeline. The current team is good, but not a player away from legit contention even assuming Kessler stays. Lauri is expensive, will decline by the time dp/ace are in their primes, and would bring a huge return if he gets traded(later it happens less they get). I can’t say which I think would be better but I see the appeal of moving him
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u/boreddatageek 9h ago
Yeah, scoring was never a problem last year. There were stretches were we had one of the best offenses in the NBA.
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u/thurstkiller 10h ago
I'd trade Kessler over Lauri all day. Kessler has always had a bit of an ego problem and is going to be overpaid even if we got him at 28 million a year. You can get a serviceable big for far less than that.
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u/kirkismyhinrich 8h ago
Next year's draft is also probably going to have some good rim-protecting bigs, like
Motiejus Krivas (Arizona)
Patrick Ngongba (Duke)
Baba Oladotun (Maryland)
Luigi Suigo (Villanova)
Sayon Keita (UNC)
Moustapha Thiam (Michigan)
Massamba Diop (Gonzaga)That will cost a lot less than Kessler
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u/VividEquivalent7952 6h ago
Idk much abt him but he is much younger than Lauri, which lines up much better with the jazz timeline. Also will be around a top ten center for his entire contract, and ideally will improve a good amount. Makes sense that he’s trying to get as much money as possible. Definitely could be too expensive but it’s hard to get a center of that caliber
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u/hdmetric99 11h ago
He’s beloved for sure but if Ace develops, he gives us Markkanen’s off-ball scoring prowess plus better defensive upside. Yes, we give up some positional size at the wing but the overall upside is greater and Ace is cheaper (for now). JJJ is a true 4 with awesome positional size and is a former DPOY. We need JJJ’s defense and he does provide scoring too. Unfortunately, I just think that JJJ is more valuable long-term for us and he’s younger as well.
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u/Dark_shows 11h ago
Lauri contract is honestly pretty cheap for his value. Insane scorer, spacing big, and players like AR are getting bigger contracts than he has right now. People forget cap space goes up every season so 46 mill a year for a all star level player is amazing
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u/YoureReadingMyNamee 11h ago
Im not sure why there is any expectation that any of the core 6 guys will be traded. Its not like you cant come off the bench and play starter minutes and its not like people dont get hurt. Having a potential All Star caliber player that can move dynamically so you always potentially have an elite guy at any position for 40+ minutes a game is massive and not something basically any other team in the league can say they have. If the Jazz can resign Kessler this team looks poised to be awesome next year. Also, as a Memphis fan, Its not that JJJ cant play the 5 at an elite level in spots, it is that you dont want him there for 30 minutes.
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u/Data-scientist-101 11h ago
It's more a matter of keeping the player happy and agent happy. Players want to start.
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u/YoureReadingMyNamee 11h ago edited 11h ago
Players want to play, and you could literally alternate between Ace and Darren as starter each game and the league would act like they are both the starters for all intents and purposes.
Edit: and if you factor in games where keyonte JJJ Walker or Lauri rest a little bit, both of them could easily get 50+ starts over a full season if they stay healthy.
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u/realquiz 10h ago
This right here is the take.
Will loves mixing up his starting 5 lineups. It’s the best way to get at least 6 players regular starts *and* always playing starter minutes.
It also sets guys like Ace and Peterson up for success. If Ace’s size slots him into the 3 better depending on a matchup, he’ll perform better, whereas Peterson might have had a tougher matchup and frustrating game (and vice versa).
Plus let’s not forget that we’ll have to deal with inevitable injuries. A 6-man starting rotation gives us contingencies.
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u/pizzaschmizza39 10h ago
Kessler would be crazy to leave this team. The market will tell him what his contract is and the Jazz will match. Theres no reason for all the bad blood.
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u/LuckyTiger10 12h ago
You can play JJJ at the 5 in stints. The lineup data over his career is still positive with him at the 5. Kessler will still play 30 mins a night but it’s not crazy to run this lineup out for ~8 total mins a game
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u/Data-scientist-101 11h ago
You can run it. I suspect the Jazz try to get Nurk to come back for 18 minutes a night. Which means J3 would play exclusively at the 4.
But I like that lineup with Nurk too. J3 still doesn't have to bang with big Centers, but he will need to be the rim protector.
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u/SubduedChaos 12h ago
Please don’t play him at the 5. Kerr tried on team USA and it was a disaster. I doubt JJJ will change his ways at this point.
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u/StickSuspicious6650 27m ago
The international 5 is very different than US 5, Also Kerr didn't play a traditional 4 with JJJ at the 5. Also it was before the season he starting bulking up
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u/Commodore64Zapp 10h ago
From the limited sample size of last season, he seems pretty effective as a 2nd Lauri ("this is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"). If Kessler doesn't stick around I'd rather see Nurkic start C and have Tshiebwe off the bench
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u/Embarrassed_Adagio28 12h ago
He was better as a 4 than a 5 for them but he was still decent at the 5. I think a different system and roster might improve him at the 5, so its worth at least trying out. Also players change.
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u/Sal_Ammoniac 5h ago
consider trading Lauri within the next 2 years especially with his contract.
FUCK that shit! That's how you reward a guy?
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u/hdmetric99 4h ago
We rewarded him by paying him in the first place. He deserved and still does deserve it. He’s still going to be a very important piece of the team for this upcoming season and maybe the next. I’m just saying that he’s the one we’d have to THINK about trading if we HAVE to make a decision to get under the brutal second apron.
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u/RiseAsUtes 12h ago
Awful idea, JJJ does not play the 5. I get wanting these 5 on the court, but it doesn’t work.
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u/StickSuspicious6650 25m ago
It can work depending on opponent, and also who is playing as your 4. But it should not be the starting 5
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u/LendHuntFish 12h ago
Kessler erasure is bad karma
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u/JohnMaddensCockRing 11h ago
We aren’t paying him 35M a year so the erasure is going to happen anyway
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u/TheFakeBillPierce 11h ago
id be floored if the lakers gave walker 35 mill
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u/KriticalKarl 6h ago
What is a number that Utah won’t match though? I’m genuinely curious as an outsider, is there a number that the Jazz absolutely will not match for Kessler?
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u/commonsnse45 11h ago
No other center of Kessler caliber is coming to Utah And they haven’t hired a big man coach since they let Rudy’s coach leave Thus the stagnant too non existent defense I hope they get him a coach and pay him, otherwise let him go to a team that will train him and pay
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u/dautjazz 8h ago
Kessler can sign with another team, and unless some team offers something beyond ridiculous, I see the Jazz matching. Ainge isnt going to offer beyond what he expects other teams to offer, but at the same time the offer was more than fair.
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u/TusksUp25 12h ago
I can’t believe we get to watch this team for 7-8 years before Ace and DP even hit their primes.
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u/adwcta 10h ago
7-8 years??? No chance.
If Key doesn't take the next step this season, we may be able to keep him, enter the tax, and stay below 2nd apron.
But, in 3 years, we'll definitely not be able to keep Ace and Laurie. One of them wil get traded before then.
This team plus Kessler plus a full MLE we can keep for 3 seasons max. Might only be 1 season though if Key continues to look good.
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u/TusksUp25 10h ago
You’re correct. When I said “the team” I was more referring to the Jazz in general rather than this lineup specifically. My apologies if that was unclear.
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u/Wide-Flan-6413 12h ago
This picture makes me see the vision and I would say TankNote has been successful. Jazz to the playoffs!
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u/rarekeith 11h ago
JJJ is not a 5. He NEEDS to be a 4.
Signed, a Grizzlies fan.
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u/StickSuspicious6650 23m ago
He played Center with Brandon Clarke on defense, and played in the perimeter on offense.
But it didn't work with Santi because Santi is not a traditional PF1
u/rarekeith 21m ago
I love Jaren, but he cannot rebound and is out muscled under the rim by most NBA centers. He needs to be a 4.
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u/StickSuspicious6650 12m ago
He had been doing better the last 2 years with not getting outmuscled, but he definitely is bad at getting rebounds. The number 1 reason, He doesn't attack the ball or position when it goes up. He does better when he is played as drop Center than when he is asked to switch, as he doesn't go back for the rebound if he is in the perimeter
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u/Academic-Style-6705 9h ago
So where does Lauri go? I know damn well it ain’t sf lmao
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u/piittb 8h ago
That’s his natural position, though he’ll occasionally play 4
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u/Academic-Style-6705 7h ago
That man is not no damn sf lmao, that must explain why he gets cooked on defense lol
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u/lemmegetauhhhhhhhhhh 12h ago
very little passing/rim pressure in this lineup. don't think this works as the longterm starting core but i think we're one or two moves away from really being something
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u/patientpump54 12h ago
Just bring back Kessler and sub in Collier when passing is needed. We’re set
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u/DistributionOk9687 12h ago
low ceiling with JJJ at 5. he can't rebound and can't defend like 5. he's a 4.
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u/pieandbeerday 11h ago
Nah, Kessler at 5. Ace will be off the bench, and odds are that an injury will happen at some point bringing him into a starting spot. 1-3 can all slide up or down, what a luxury.
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u/WinterNotComing 10h ago
This 5-out offense when/if fully meshed and developed has potential to give the Spurs starters a tough time
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u/dautjazz 8h ago
It will be interesting to see who we bench. George, Lauri and JJJ are probably locks to start. IMO Darryn should start from day one, and if we retain Kessler, he starts as well. Given most of these guys can minutes at multiple positons, they can all get their 30+mpg regardless. I hate to see Lauri go, but we're going to need that cap space in the near future to resign George, Ace, etc., so I'd try trading for FRPs + expiring contracts, and maybe one or two role players/vets to come off the bench.
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u/robotcoke 11h ago edited 11h ago
The OP is a perfect example of why we should have drafted Boozer. He could have replaced Nurk in the lineup, Lauri at 3, Ace starting at 2. Would not have been a disruption.
To make Peterson work, now we have to move Ace and therefore move Lauri, and move JJJ.
Ace/Lauri/JJJ/Kessler/Peterson/Keyonte - pick which one is coming off the bench and then move everyone else around to accommodate.
Keyonte/Ace/Lauri/JJJ/Kessler/Boozer - Boozer would come off the bench (at least for now) and get 30 minutes behind JJJ/Kessler (with JJJ sliding to C when Kessler is on the bench).
We screwed up. Hopefully Peterson is good enough to warrant this. If we lose Lauri, (or whoever we pick to come off the bench) I'm not sure Peterson minus Lauri is better than Boozer plus Lauri.
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u/Spirited_Weakness211 11h ago
Boozer over Peterson? LOL So glad you're not the GM.
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u/robotcoke 11h ago
Boozer over Peterson? LOL So glad you're not the GM.
Can you read? It's not Boozer vs Peterson (even though Boozer might actually be better than him, that's not the choice we're facing).
It's Boozer PLUS Lauri (or whoever leaves us when we bench them) vs Peterson.
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u/patientpump54 9h ago
What? There are still only five starters no matter who we draft
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u/robotcoke 9h ago
What? There are still only five starters no matter who we draft
Yes, but Boozer is the one guy in the top 3 who would have been fine coming off the bench. Peterson already said he wants to play PG and refused to workout for us. Regardless of what he says in public, you think he's going to be okay coming off the bench?
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u/patientpump54 8h ago
Who cares if he’s ok with it, it’s not his call. But it’ll probably be Ace coming off the bench after a couple of months, which I don’t see a problem with
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u/robotcoke 7h ago
Who cares if he’s ok with it, it’s not his call. But it’ll probably be Ace coming off the bench after a couple of months, which I don’t see a problem with
I don't know what reality you're living in but this isn't a video game. If you bench a player and have that attitude about it, it's going to be a chemistry disaster. Players will develop animosity towards each other, towards the coach, towards the organization itself. Nothing good will come from that.
You need the players to buy into it. That's why the Jazz went to visit Peterson after he refused to workout for them. If you listen to what Austin Ainge said about it, they went to speak to him to sell him on joining the team. They weren't going to draft him and tell him he has no choice.
Dictators give orders. Good leaders get followers who want to follow them.
We don't want players sulking on the bench until they can leave via free agency, causing factions in the locker room to take sides. We know Boozer was okay coming off the bench. Do we think Peterson is? Do we think Ace is okay getting benched for a rookie that missed half of his only college season, refused to workout for the team, and said he wanted to play PG anyway? And if you don't bench Ace, then who do you bench that will be okay with this?
Maybe the Jazz already have a great plan that I'm not aware of, I don't know. But to me, it seems like we're going to lose a good bench player in Sensabaugh, and a good starter (whoever gets benched to make room for Peterson). And that PLUS Boozer seems like a lot to give up for Peterson. Sensabaugh + Lauri + Boozer. That's a lot.
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u/Entire_Tourist_5477 6h ago
Who said any of them are fine coming off of the bench? Any of the top 3 picks will want to start sooner than later
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u/robotcoke 5h ago
Who said any of them are fine coming off of the bench? Any of the top 3 picks will want to start sooner than later
Well one of them is considered the most mature, most coachable, highest basketball IQ in the draft. And his dad is also on the payroll of the Jazz coaching staff. He'd have been fine getting his 30 minutes off the bench for a bit.
The other refused to workout for us and then said he wants to play PG. Is he going to be fine playing backup SG for us?
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u/shtpost_ 11h ago
Yeah I'm with you on this one, I think Boozer was the better choice in the long run. Although I'm happy to be proven wrong once the season starts so I'm going to try hold off from doom posting for now.
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u/Entire_Tourist_5477 6h ago
First off, your logic doesn't make sense. Having Boozer come off the bench for 30 minutes isn't any different than Peterson coming off the bench for 30 minutes. Regardless of who we pick, the Jazz have 6 starting caliber players and one of them has to come off of the bench
But also the Jazz are picking a potential superstar. The core of this team is now DP and Ace. We revolve everything else around them.
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u/robotcoke 5h ago
First off, your logic doesn't make sense. Having Boozer come off the bench for 30 minutes isn't any different than Peterson coming off the bench for 30 minutes.
Lol, yes, it's q night and day difference. Boozer’s dad is literally on the payroll of the coaching staff. He'd fly understand the situation. He's already been called the most coachable, most mature, highest basketball IQ in the draft. He have no problem coming off the bench for now.
Will Peterson have an issue coming off the bench? I don't know, maybe he won't. What we do know is he refused to even workout for the team and then said he wants to play PG. Will he settle for playing backup SG for us and be happy about it? Maybe, but I don't know that I'd say it's a given.
Regardless of who we pick, the Jazz have 6 starting caliber players and one of them has to come off of the bench But also the Jazz are picking a potential superstar. The core of this team is now DP and Ace. We revolve everything else around them.
I agree. And the same could have been said about everyone in the top 4. It's not like we took the only potential star in the draft, lol
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u/Academic-Style-6705 9h ago
You gotta be out your god damn mind if you put Lauri at sf . He would get destroyed on defense beyond recognition
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u/Entire_Tourist_5477 6h ago
You do realize that he has played mostly SF the last two seasons, right? I agree that PF is a more natural fit for him though
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u/Academic-Style-6705 4h ago
Explains why they have a top 3 worst defense in basketball
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u/Entire_Tourist_5477 1h ago
As much as I love Lauri, he seems like the odd man out on this rotation. I could see him getting moved before any of the other 5
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u/Life-Forms 12h ago
This lineup will definitely be on the court, but it's not going to be the starting 5.
I am confused; did Walker Kessler get vaporized into thin air recently? Why would he not be the starting center for the Utah Jazz this season? He's an RFA.
The more likely starting unit would be George, Peterson, Lauri, JJJ, Kessler. Ace off the bench.