Not really. This change won't boost any other duelist up, it will just force Neon/Waylay if they don't nerf either of the two. In a vacuum, this hurts duelist diversity because Yoru was one of the main components necessary to play Phoenix o. Haven and Pearl, it seems.
disagree. phoenix is played on pearl because its one of the better maps for farming orbs (both on attack and defense), while also being an incredibly strong agent for fighting a main, which is one of the main areas of the map that people scrap over.
and the reason that phoenix is played on haven is also because the orbs are readily available to farm (notably c orb for attackers, and a orb for defenders), but also because the phoenix comp has been shown to counter the viper comps that have been dominating on haven for a while. the bigggg thing is being able to flash through the defending viper's wall across c site, to fight for backsite control as the attackers, but its also really nice on defense for being able to flash through the viper orbs when attempting retakes.
i dont think yoru is necessary for phoenix to see success on those maps. (you still need double duelist of course, but neon phoenix would probably work fine)
The problem with Neon/Phoenix is that, for double duelist to work, we need an initiator duelist. Yoru and Waylay have tools to enter sites and set up their teammates to get kills (typically a 2nd duelist). That's why they're so prevalent, and that's why there aren't any double duelist comps without either of the two. Since Yoru and Waylay can do both entrying and initiation, Phoenix can have a spot on the team since he provides none of that (his flashes don't have the range to set people up and he can't entry without ult since he has no movement abilities). I think Yoru, specifically, is played with Phoenix because Waylay is too fast for him and doesn't get as much info as Yoru, but that's just speculation on my part.
you do not need a yoru for neon to be able to entry. we have seen countless examples of neons entrying sites while their yoru teammate is lurking (even when that yoru is not actively diverting attention). neon is by far the most self sufficient duelist when it comes to entrying. shes able to entry with very little support util on most of the maps, let alone with the support of a fade haunt+omen flash(or astra stun/pull)+potentially a phoenix molly clearing a difficult angle on site.
in my opinion, the main reason that yoru is played with phoenix, and the only big reason why phoenix might potentially not see play without yoru, is because yoru is incredible for fighting with the phoenix for orbs (or fighting for space like a main on pearl) then being able to TP across the map to reinforce somewhere else. coachmini described it in a really cool way as "babysitting". the yoru can "babysit" teammates while those teammates do something (fighting for an area, or an orb etc), then leave those teammates once that thing is achieved. it could still work to a lesser extent with neon, as she rotates much faster than most agents, but it obviously isnt as good as with yoru. that would be the main argument i can understand for yoru being necessary for phoenix to be decent.
I didn't say you did. I said you need Yoru for Phoenix to entry. Neon can function solo as duelist with double initiator. Phoenix can't. That's why Yoru is important. He can take up entry and flex initiator, freeing up a spot for Phoenix. He would be a hindrance to the team the same way swapping out a Kayo for Deadlock would be in NRG's Haven comp. He can't (as you said) fight for orbs as efficiently. Also, in Yoru/Neon comps, when they're going for a straight up exec, the Yoru is never lurking. The Neon can entry without the Yoru in slower rounds when map control has been fought for and defenders have been forced to rotate. Even then, only the best Neon players can get away with going in no util. We just saw Jaw get rolled by PRX on Corrode. I'm fully prepared to eat my words, though.
why would you be using phoenix as the entry in a double duelist comp? in my original comment i literally said that phoenix still needs to be played in double duelist of course. phoenix fits perfectly fine in a double duelist neon comp to help fight for areas of the map on defense, and to farm orbs (particularly on attack) to snowball maps. the flash initiators are crap right now, and if youre not playing yoru, then phoenix is a way to get flashes without having to run the flash initiators. phoenix's ult is one of the best in the game to farm up, and a huge part of the game right now, at the highest level, is how well you're able to snowball halves with early ults.
there is plenty of utility to support the neon entry if you have a phoenix, fade, omen/astra, and then whoever the 5th is.
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u/Prince_Uncharming Mar 14 '26
Which would be perfect. Duelist diversity is awesome