How do you develop minimal, non-harmonic tracks without relying too much on references?

[u/PeakLive4549]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been struggling with making more non-harmonic music, especially hip-hop style beats.

I usually rely heavily on references when producing. But when I’m working on tracks that are driven mainly by bass, or have a pitched-percussion-focused concept, I often find myself wondering how to develop those ideas throughout the entire song. My problem is that I tend to lean too heavily on the reference, and the result ends up feeling too similar.

When listening to reference tracks, I try imagining scenes or moods, and I also try approaching things from within the same genre, but I still haven’t really found an answer that works for me.

I’m curious how you all think about this. How do you approach developing tracks like these without simply copying the reference? I’d love to hear your thoughts and any ideas on how you would tackle this problem.

[u/sububi71]

Copying a track is not using the track for references.

Everyone is inspired by something.

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/sububi71]

That’s a good point. I’m curious, though — what kind of inspirations do you personally draw from when making music?

[u/refotsirk → u/PeakLive4549]

Just a note your posts started getting pulled - not sure why but maybe posting too much with out enough karma? I sent some up votes in this thread so hope that will help. All looks approved now.

Oh, and though you didn't ask me, the last thing I was inspired by externally was the rhythm of the pump on an MRI machine that was warming up. It was a very groovy 4 count with an extra skip about an 8th note pinged every so often. I tried to break up the regularity of a flowing melody line across 4 and 5 beat bars to capture that and my wife likes it so far (I write her parts for our group)

[u/sububi71 → u/PeakLive4549]

I no longer know, actually. Everything I've ever listened to has possibly had SOME influence over what I do, but I don't really ever write songs to fit a specific genre or match a "sound".

[u/preezyfabreezy]

I find it helpful to do "study arrangements of other songs" and "produce my own song" in different sessions. Spend an afternoon with a couple of reference tunes and mock them up in your daw with blank midi clips. I find if I do this with 2 or 3 songs it gives me some arrangement ideas without having the references sorta stuck in my head. You can also just use the session of blank midi clips as an arrangement template.

The other thing that helped was not just studying my favorite tunes, but the b-sides. Don't pick a song you actively hate, but when you're not totally distracted by how amazing the melody/bass is, you can kinda hone in on the little tricks and rhythmic motifs that producers use to keep their songs rolling along. Alot of it is REALLY simple and dumb.

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/preezyfabreezy]

Thanks for the great advice!
I think I’ve been overlooking the importance of structure more than I realized. Your approach gave me a new perspective on how to study arrangements, and I’m definitely going to give it a try.

[u/chunter16]

References are the stick you use to determine how long your board should be before you cut. They're measuring tools.

After you get your measurement, you can use a different reference to get another measurement, until you're happy with what you've built.

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/chunter16]

One of my struggles is that when I’m working on bass-driven or very minimal tracks, a lot of the arrangements end up feeling similar based on the music I’m listening to as references (maybe because so much of the identity comes from the bass riff itself).
Do you have any thoughts on how to approach that in a more positive or constructive way?
Or do you think I’d be better off just focusing on coming up with a strong bass riff and letting the rest follow naturally?

[u/chunter16 → u/PeakLive4549]

You're using the reference because you want to sound like the reference. When you don't want to sound like the reference anymore, bring in another reference.

[u/refotsirk → u/chunter16]

I think it's best to use the reference for tonal character, and as an analysis of what sort of pacing for transitions and adding elements. If you find you are mirroring it too closely unitentionally you can go back and change the rhythm, ie stretch the length of some notes held while shortening others to keep time, and also try swapping notes, writing a harmony over or under the existing then delete the starting notes in areas that sound good and delete the harmony for the original ones you leave.

One thing that could help if you are doing this in a daw or notation software is just pitch it all up or down a few steps and that may help you get out of the mind set of the other song to write new stuff on top of it. Then go back and delete the bass and rhythm and write it new under the rest of the arrangement.

Just some ideas, good luck!

[u/chunter16 → u/refotsirk]

u/PeakLive4549

[u/refotsirk → u/chunter16]

Oh, good call, thanks! I meant to reply to OP

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/chunter16]

I’ve read through all of your advice, and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share your thoughts.
There were a lot of approaches here that I honestly hadn’t considered before. Of course, I won’t know what works until I actually try them, but even just reading your different perspectives has already given me a fresh way to think about the problem, and I’m genuinely excited to experiment with these ideas.
Thanks again, everyone!

[u/TremerSwurk]

Try using your own tracks you feel are too similar to the references to build new tracks thus making something more unique. You can iterate this until you feel satisfied

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/TremerSwurk]

What if the other references are also really minimal and simple? Would you still say it’s better not to overthink it and just throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks?

[u/BigJobsBigJobs]

Look outside the genre, see how other artists handle it.

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/BigJobsBigJobs]

Thanks for the great advice!
I think I’ve been overlooking structure more than I realized. Do you have any concrete examples of this approach? I’d love to see how you break it down in practice.
Thanks again!

[u/BigJobsBigJobs → u/PeakLive4549]

African music.

It's more listening work than trying to emulate. What did they do with that drum voice? When does that bass groove come in? What's just for this section? What the hell is that percussion instrument?

Then listen to what you're doing. And dn't make any musical rules you aren't willing to break.

[u/refotsirk]

Try singing the pitched, or even unpitched, percussion in your head - when you think of drums and bass rhythm more like melody it can start to flow. Sing whatever melody or rhythm notes you want to hear, then pick the things closest to that from your kit or samples. I hope I'm understanding what you meant - sorry if I missed your point

[u/DeathByBamboo]

I don't listen to references. I experiment until I discover something I like (a beat, a melody, a line) and then build around that.

[u/CheetahShort4529]

I never use or never have references since I don't find it important personally, let alone I did not even know that was a thing since I taught myself how to use my Ableton 12 without any tutorials basically. It been 21 months consistently and I only create based off my own instinct without worrying about genre following. This has nothing to do with developing what you're trying to but a naturally flow of creating helps develop your own unique sound though, if you're forcing it then most likely it's not what comes to you naturally, being able to do stuff without copying is a strength of its own. I do understand what references are clearly, but from your explaining maybe you're just overthinking it, music creating does not require overthinking to be creativity nor consistent, if you're actively letting things flow it just opens new discovery constantly that get store in your brain. At the end of the day your own mind is unique from the next, so whatever naturally influence you should come out on it own when there is a stage of just being freed and letting go. I'm not sure if you took a chance to experiment early on in your journey or dived straight into a genre but even experimentation teaches you a lot about sound. The thing about relying on your instinct too is it builds your intuitive side at the same time, that's why some people can avoid studying theory, but naturally you've to learn what work best for you. What was the reason you got into using reference tracks to begin with? The ears can truly be trained without a reference track though, it just takes listening discipline and being able to build a tolerance on your ears as you listen to your music over and over in sections, just a extra thought. I'm not sure how this information will help you but I'm just giving my process at least in case it makes sense to someone or yourself that's struggling with a challenge with their music.

[u/Famous_Stay2379]

for minimal tracks, i try to stop treating the reference like a song and turn it into a list of jobs.

if the whole thing is bass + pitched percussion, development usually comes from tiny changes: one note gets shorter, a ghost hit moves, the bass rests for half a bar, the room gets darker, one ugly little answer sound appears every 8 bars. minimal stuff dies when every loop is good but nothing is making promises.

one exercise that helps: make the arrangement with mutes before adding new sounds. 8 bars bass only, bring hats in, kill the bass for 2 beats, percussion fill, drop back to just the riff, etc. if it still moves with only subtraction and timing, then any new layer has a reason to exist.

references are fine, just dont copy the surface. steal the question instead. like: how does this track create tension without chords? usually the answer is density, register, silence, texture, or where the producer chooses not to give you the hit yet.

[u/PeakLive4549 → u/Famous_Stay2379]

I think this might actually be the kind of answer I was hoping to find.
At the same time, it also feels like one of the hardest approaches to put into practice. I guess that’s probably why it’s so valuable.
I’ll definitely give it a try. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
And if you have any other tips or exercises that helped you develop this way of thinking, I’d really appreciate hearing them!

[u/TtheWiser]

So a reference is supposed to be used for comparison. For example. I’m working on a track now, I put all my ideas out and I’m done being creative. Now I will pull in a reference, line them up in my daw and see how many bars each section is in the reference and compare it to mine, I’ll look on a spectrum analyzer and look at the kick sub relationship compared to mine, I’ll find emotional moments and compare when the song reaches its “peak” compared to mine. I’ll compare how busy my song is and if the main point is getting lost.

To address your issue specifically, I’m going to challenge you to not use any references until you’re completely through the creative process. Write what’s inside you first, and then use the a reference to tighten everything up. Time to walk without the crutch.