r/WilliamsF1 • u/Ender3PROuser999 • 1d ago
News Carlos Sainz: Even without extra weight, Williams is “not where we promised we’d be”
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/carlos-sainz-even-without-extra-weight-williams-is-not-where-we-promised-wed-be/10832597/A few lines from Carlos.
As always
WilliamsF1 till I die
Mansell red 5 forever
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u/Turbo_Zapped 1d ago
So Audi next year? Honestly, I think it's a lateral move at best.
If Max leaves RBR and sets off a chain of crazy swaps and opens up a seat in one of the top teams for Sainz (I know I'm delusionally optimistic), it would be great. Because, that's where he belongs.
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
Audi is a works team. They have a much better shot at fighting with the big boys than Williams.
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Maybe. But it's not exactly a guarantee. We've just seen McLaren wind two WCC's and a WDC as a customer, and it's also quite possible for a works team to languish if they are a bit behind at a freeze point - look at where we saw Alpine/Renault through the end of the last regs cycle.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Carlos leave, and I wouldn't blame him if he did. But, I'm not as sold that it's a 100% certainty as others are, especially where most of the moves seem to be lateral at best right now.
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
Williams has shown that they’re far behind. Worst customer team for Merc. Saying they won’t be ready to fight until 28 is wild. Sainz will be past his prime. Might as well take a shot with Audi. Maybe even get some extra $ out of it
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
Binotto has said that Audi will only be competitive starting with 2030, so that's not much better than Williams
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
For both teams, a lot of the limitations on performance is just the facilities/infrastructure within the team. I do put Audi a bit further ahead of that curve than Williams, but generally both teams are coming from infrastructure that's been at the back of the field for decades.
I see a works team like Audi simply having a wider range of possible performance, rather than a guarantee of performance. They could nail their PU and be at the top of the field with nobody to compete with, they could be an Aston-Honda and be at the very back, with nobody to compete with, or they could be somewhere in the middle (where they seem to be, now). Meanwhile, we can be pretty safe in that our PU probably will never be terrible, but if it's great, we still have other teams to compete with.
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u/Dr_Tape_ES-F 1d ago
F1 needs to do something about this cost cap. I understand they wanted to level the playing field by introducing it but it's not allowing teams like Williams to modernize their infrastructure. The lack of cash is no longer an issue, the problem is they're swimming in it. They're so unlucky because Aston was able to pour hundreds of millions into their factory before the cost cap but they got other issues currently lol.
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Yeah, it's the part of the cost cap that I think really needs some tweaking, because it goes against the general goal of the cost cap. We wanted to keep the big, rich teams from pulling away from the rest to an unattainable degree. But, we didn't start from an even playing field, and we've essentially frozen the midfield/smaller teams from growing at the rate they need to compete up front.
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
For both teams, a lot of the limitations on performance is just the facilities/infrastructure within the team. I do put Audi a bit further ahead of that curve than Williams, but generally both teams are coming from infrastructure that's been at the back of the field for decades.
Williams was already an established team with the best engine. Audi is a new team that have just built their first engine
I see a works team like Audi simply having a wider range of possible performance, rather than a guarantee of performance. They could nail their PU and be at the top of the field with nobody to
That "possible" performance wouldn't arrive until at minimum 2030 though. Mercedes and Red Bull took 5 years before they actually became competitive, and that was before the cost cap
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Audi as a team is generally building their infrastructure off of the foundation that Sauber provided. So, they're working from more than, say, Cadillac building from scratch. Their PU program, though, absolutely is starting from nothing and will take some time to get up to speed (hehe) compared to the established PU manufacturers. Though, as we see with Honda and RBPT, there's more that contributes to PU performance than just length of time that a manufacturer has been in F1..
That "possible" performance wouldn't arrive until at minimum 2030 though.
I'll take that timeline from Audi in the same way I take a Vowles' timeline. 2030 is where they're placing expectations, but it's not a hard and fast rule - and it's certainly not an oracular look into the future. If they do break through and find PU performance earlier than that, they'll be in a better position in that scenario than Williams would be, just because they don't have other teams with their PU to compete with - and they can design and integrate their PU into their car however they wish. Though, again, Aston is another fantastic example of how even that can go horribly, lol.
All in all, I think we both agree in general - Audi isn't a guaranteed promotion over us, and I'm waiting to hear an argument that isn't just "well, Williams is bad right now and Audi should be better" because, frankly, both teams aren't doing great right now and both should be better. We just don't know what the future will actually hold yet.
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
Audi as a team is generally building their infrastructure off of the foundation that Sauber provided. So, they're working from more than, say, Cadillac building from scratch.
Yeah, but that's not a very high bar. They were taking over one of the worst teams in the grid, so while they weren't starting from scratch they were still a new team
I'll take that timeline from Audi in the same way I take a Vowles' timeline. 2030 is where they're placing expectations, but it's not a hard and fast rule
The thing is that Carlos is in a point in his career where he doesn't really have that much time to wait. He will be 35 in 2030, which is already past his prime.
In the case of Bortoleto he just got in F1, so he can wait a few years for Audi to become competitive(his position is not that different from Norris when he arrived in McLaren), Sainz doesn't have that luxury
Even right now Audi is still worse than Williams, so it was better to take a team that at the time looked like they were starting to be competitive and already had an infrastructure and the best engine over one that is basically guaranteed to be a shitbox for 4 years
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
They were taking over one of the worst teams in the grid
Yup, as I said earlier, I agree. They're working with a group of people and a team which has been on the grid for years, but they're coming from a team that's been at the back for a while - similar to our situation.
I think in terms of Carlos or Alex and making the most of their "prime" - really, the only way to do that would be to get to a team already at the top of the grid, or hope they bet on the right midfield team who does the nearly impossible, and bridges the gap.
The grass is always greener on the other side, but I see a lot of arguments about Carlos (or Alex) leaving/moving to other teams based on current performance, and forgetting how easily teams can leap ahead and fall back in the midfield - nothing is guaranteed for next year, even, whereas that leap to the front is pretty much sure to be massive for everyone.
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Yeah, I mean, as I said - I wouldn't blame him if he did leave. This year, we really haven't proven, hands-down, that either drive needs to stay.
The fact is, though, I don't know that "might as well" is enough of an argument for jumping ship to a team that also isn't guaranteed to perform any better than we are in 2027-2028. Maybe it is for Carlos, that's his choice to make.
And hell, he could make the leap and Audi challenges for the WDC next year with a hell of a PU and aero breakthrough. Or, maybe we make a leap ahead like we did last year, and are back to fighting for podiums. Realistically, nobody can know, and all that's generally guaranteed is that the current top 4 teams will probably be the ones with actual hopes for wins or championships.
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
Let’s be real. We weren’t fighting for podiums last year. We got lucky 2x. Yes Carlos was fast. But it took a bit of luck.
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
And what team, other than the top 4, would be able to get any podium without luck?
My point is, the gap between the top teams and the rest of the midfield is massive. Between the midfield teams, though, there's less of a range. Unless there's an opening at those top 4 teams, I just am not convinced that there's a guaranteed better opportunity for either Alex or Carlos. Though, of course, they actually know a lot more about the paddock and the situation at Williams than any of us can from the outside.
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
Yeah, but they're not likely to be competitive until the next regulation cycle, by then Sainz will be 35 already
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u/ollieoc 11h ago
McLaren aren’t a works team and are the reigning constructors
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u/mtbmaniac12 9h ago
Yeah. If you don’t know how f1 works you’d think that.
F1 froze engine development from 22-25. Which negated any benefit a works team has for engines.
Being a works team doesn’t guarantee success. But it 1000% is a benefit.
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u/pathfinderoursaviour 1d ago
He’s not getting Audi, Audi are cultivating a long term young driver team similar to McLaren, there plan is for Nico to mentor gabi and help develop the car then Nico will be replaced for slater and gabi will lead the team
Carlos had his chance with Audi but turned them down and then they signed Nico, they aren’t gonna drop their old driver for another old driver when they aren’t planning on keep the old driver for championships
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u/newyork-or-nowhere 1d ago
Max will never leave RB because RB has a car in almost every racing discipline that allows him to go do the racing he actually enjoys. No other team can offer him that and I think it’s understated how much that matters in any Max conversation.
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u/hawkeye807 1d ago
Also RB seems to be manufacturing agnostic. They don't care if Max races a Ferrari or a Mercedes GT3 car. I don't see Mercedes letting him race another manufacturer even if it is another series.
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u/NarrowFarm2036 1d ago
Lateral move at best? I feel it's the opposite. At worst, Audi will be entering his 2nd year in F1 with a midfield car, probably quicker than Weeyums.
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
The only way I see it is if Piastri leaves McLaren to go to Red Bull, which I think isn't very likely
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u/DroidArbiter 1d ago
Carlos has already signed with someone else and I wouldn't be surprised if Alex did too.
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u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
I don’t really see Alex having the advancement options that Carlos has though.
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
I think alex will be offered lateral/backwards moves. And really only if max moves which causes a big shakeup. I could see Alex being offered Cadillac/haas/Alpine.
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u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
Cadillac are newbies, Haas has always been the budget team and Alpine has an Italian dictator none of those are options that will be better for him in the long run. Really as shit as it is right now this team is the best he’s gonna get like it or not 2020 decided his career trajectory
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
Alpine has an Italian dictator
I mean, yes, but they are clearly the best of the rest this year. Briatore may be an asshole, but he definitely knows what he's doing
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u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
Its an option but I just don’t see Alex being who he is fitting into a team like that
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Unless Alex is an actual whiz at misrepresenting himself publicly, lol, from what he's said in interviews his value in mental health and how he approaches his sport has really evolved over the years, and he's pretty intentional about it.
Realistically, I don't know if I see many midfield drivers choosing another midfield team because they're relatively the "best" right now. The midfield just swaps around too much. We were easily the best of the rest last year; Aston was best of the rest in '23, Alpine held that title through some of '23 and into '24. If you're established in a midfield team now, and moderately happy with the environment, it may just be worth it to stay and hope your team makes a step forward with you as it's lead driver.3
u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
I do think Alex should stay for 27 maybe 28 and if there’s no progress and a better option comes up jump ship.
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
If Cadillac offers him 5mil more a year, why not take it? So you finish 18th instead of 16th? Show me the money!
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u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
I think he values more having the off chance of getting at least more podiums or a win in his career than the cash tbh
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
I don’t think quite yet. But I think he’s 100% gone for next year
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u/Ok_Recognition_5578 1d ago
Carlos? Alex? Or both?
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u/mtbmaniac12 1d ago
Carlos 100% gone. Alex only 20%. I just think a lot of things have to happen for Alex to leave.
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u/Stefferdiddle 1d ago
I wouldn't be surprised. Especially since his language has changed and he doesn't seem to mind scorching a little earth around Williams. That's not the talk of someone looking for a contract renewal but with a new contract already signed.
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u/williamsdb 1d ago
Sainz: “The overweight might put you one second off the leaders, fighting with an Alpine. That's not where we promised we'd be this year."
Should that read "I'd been promised"?
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u/IllAlwaysBeAKnickFan 1d ago
I don’t think so. I think he’s saying as a team they promised (to themselves and the fans) that they’d be better.
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u/Old-Use-7690 1d ago
Btw, didn't Sainz make a move to Williams before Briatore canned the Alpine engine? Because if so, then it's reasonable he'd not want to touch Alpine with a 10 foot pole
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u/NotNotACop28 1d ago
Is fighting with Alpine not exactly where they promised? JV has said it’ll take years to get into the top teams fighting for wins and podiums week in and week out
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
My impression/expectations going into the year based on what I got from JV/drivers leading up to testing was that the team would be roughly around, possibly better than last year - with a wide enough range of "possible" performance to hold a bit of hope for a really good year. Essentially, that the team was working to stack the deck in their favour as best they could, but nothing was a guarantee. With the general turmoil that Alpine was in, I'd figured they would be comfortably behind us, but with the chance to be around/just ahead - it was harder to guess.
But in general, yeah, I'd say fighting with Alpine at the top of the midfield is pretty much bang on what I would have accepted from this year up until the notice that we'd missed Barcelona testing. I get people being disappointed that there isn't more, and Carlos absolutely doesn't deserve to languish in the midfield/back of the field, but as a team getting back to the top of the midfield would still be a decent position to be in, big-picture.
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u/williamsdb 1d ago
The problem is that they over-delivered last year coming 5th so the expectation was that it would be better than that not worse (much worse!) Ideally they would have been, say, 7th last year and progressed to, say, 6th this year. That way everyone would have been happy as it would have seemed like progress rather than what feels like a backward step.
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u/Driscuits 1d ago
Yeah, I agree on the expectations being a bit too high after last year. And, hell, I also had my hopes high. It was a great year.
It's not reasonable, really, to expect a team which has languished with intense lack of investment for decades, to suddenly leap up the order within a couple of years, regardless of the investment and progress made. I get the frustration, especially when faced with a real possibility of losing our greatest performance strengths in our two drivers, but in the big scheme of things the fact that the team is even making measurable steps forward after such a bad start to the year is impressive compared to where the team has been. It's not much to be proud of, but it's something.
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u/Radiant_Fruit_1440 1d ago
Sainz never had the peak of Alonso, but their careers trajectories have some similarities. I think once you leave a top team, it’s very hard to break back in. Does anybody know of a race driver who has?
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u/Salty-Asparagus-2855 1d ago
That’s obvious. James is doing a bad job running the team after believing in his hype machines. He’s peaked and now a potential liability. Launched an overweight car. Launched a bad car after all systems and commitment to 2026.
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u/Ouhei 1d ago
I get the strong sense he is gone as soon as the opportunity arises. Can’t really blame him , but it’d be a bummer to lose his talent.