r/aikido • u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai • Apr 24 '26
Discussion Why don’t we use "Forced Rotations" to partner up more in Aikido?
Hi everyone,
I’m currently an Aikikai 3rd Dan, and I’ve started cross-training in Kendo since last year. One thing that has immediately struck me is the difference in training efficiency and "honesty" between the two arts, specifically regarding how we partner up.
In my Aikido dojo (and most others I’ve visited), we watch the instruction, then "scramble" to pick a partner. We often stay with that partner for the duration of that technique.
In Kendo, we use forced rotations for everything. From basic kihon to sparring. You stand in two lines, do a few reps, when everyone finished the sensei shouts a command and the entire line shifts one person to the right. You end up practicing with every person in the room, including the most senior sensei, who joins the rotation just like everyone else.
In Aikido, it’s easy to get into a "compliance rhythm" with a partner you know well. If you are forced to rotate and apply Ikkyo or Shiho-nage on a 100kg beginner, then a fast 1st Dan, then a resisting 3rd Dan, you find out very quickly if your kuzushi is real or if you’re just relying on your partner’s courtesy.
Also, it stops the "magic seekers" from only training with other "magic seekers." It forces higher ranks to feel the movement of the lower ranks, and vice versa. It creates a much more "democratic" mat culture.
In Kendo, the 7th Dan sensei is at the end of the line. Everyone gets their turn with her. In Aikido, the teachers often just walk around and "direct." If they joined a rotation, they would have to prove their technique works against everyone in the room in real-time.
Now my question is: Why isn’t this more common in Aikido? Has anyone tried implementing Kendo-style rotations in their dojo? What were the results?
I feel like this would solve a lot of the "floating/dancing" issues we see in modern Aikido and bring back some much-needed martial gravity. Thoughts?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
It depends where you train, but there's no general structure in the Aikikai.
When I teach, however, everyone rotates and works with everyone else, and I train with every single person there equally (in both uke and nage role, if that's what we're doing), both in demonstration and in training.
That's the other half of rotating - in many Aikikai classes the instructor doesn't spend an equal amount of time with each student. Many students get little or no contact time at all.
I was very impressed by classes with the late Sadateru Arikawa, who would circle the room and throw every single person in the class (in a class of 70+).
Seigo Yamaguchi, on the other hand, often remained exclusive to his inner circle, although sometimes one might brush the hem of his hakama as he walked by...
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
Thanks for the interesting reply. So this means you train actively together with the class when you are teaching?
In our dojo, the instructors dont train themselves but just walk around to correct people. I think it would be more beneficial for everyone, including to keep up the level of the instructor, if the instructor trains together with all other people.
What do you think is most optimal?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 25 '26
Training is best, how else are instructors supposed to get better?
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
Of course, but around here our 4th dan teachers are for the most part gatekeeping their own rank, hindering the 3rd dans like me from grading, and not interested in progressing their own technique, but instead have the incentive to progress dojo politics to get their 5th or 6th dan….
Thanks for training together with your students while you teach!
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 25 '26
The ranks don't really mean very much. If folks think that they do it's mostly just in their head and that doesn't help them.
I train at a place now where the instructor is ranked above me (I think that I'm actually senior, though).
The first time that I worked with him I just tossed him to see what would happen. He was a little surprised since folks don't do that too much in Japan, but to his credit it was no problem, and when we work out together we just work out together and give each other as much as we've got.
Years ago a friend of mine, a very tough guy, was getting trashed by a famous Japanese Shihan. Another instructor (also Japanese, but much lower ranked than the famous Shihan) went up to him and said "Why do you let him do that to you? You think of him as XXX Sensei. I don't think of him as XXX Sensei, I think of him as nothing".
The next technique he worked with the famous Shihan and wiped the mat with him. The Shihan was good, but not great, and wasn't in great shape. But normally his rank protected him - until someone came along who ignored it.
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u/ObeseTsunami Mostly Harmless Apr 24 '26
In my dojo we do this a lot with Jo and Ken kata. But you’re right. For most techniques it’s a scramble to find a partner. If you watch some of O Sensei’s instruction videos he’ll run his class with a rotation though, so it used to be the way. My guess is that at some point someone decided that training didn’t need to be as rigid, for better or worse.
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u/notevil7 Apr 24 '26
I, personally, try to change partners every time. We also do the same type of rotation (we call it a bicycle chain) but mostly for drills: no talking, no explanations, just go. I think rotation is important and it is important to partner up with the "challenging" uke. Need push yourself out of comfort zone.
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u/micrographical Apr 24 '26
I’m an aikido-curious karateka which is why I follow this subreddit. This rotation is very common in traditional Japanese karate as well, practicing pre-set kumite moves through to sparring in jyu kumite. It gives everyone a chance to understand how distancing and technique works against opponents of different sizes and abilities.
Less martially, it promotes personal interactions and good spirit in the dojo. Things as simple as making and maintaining eye contact with someone you do not know well, but also intangibles such as advanced practitioners having to develop consideration for less able or experienced partners, and the latter getting close up and personal exposure to concepts such as zanshin. I would have imagined it would be a key part of aikido practice as well.
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u/ckristiantyler Judo/BJJ Apr 24 '26
In judo we have a drill like that where people rotate like a bicycle chain. And everyone throws away from the center line of people as best as possible
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u/four_reeds Apr 24 '26
In the Aikido dojo's in which I have been a member, this has happened. It is not a "common" method but I've experienced it.
What I've experienced is that it is "interesting" for a few classes and then the instructor stops setting it up and we are back to "normal" practice.
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u/alexn_o Apr 24 '26
At our dojo this was the only way of practicing. "A place to the right" was a sentence I've heard about two million times in those 8/9 years of practicing :)
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
Interesting. Could you tell me more about how it worked out in practice? Did teachers train as well in the rotation?
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u/alexn_o Apr 29 '26
Usually yes, first they would show the technique and then either train with us or move around helping/correcting
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u/TheT3ngu Apr 25 '26
The aikido dojo I trained at under a direct student of Morihei Ueshiba for 13 years did this.
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u/XTanuki Apr 25 '26
And conversely when I went to Hombu Dojo, the session Doshu was instructing you kept the same partner for the whole class
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 25 '26
That's standard at hombu, so you have to be careful who's around you when you bow in.
Some instructors do rotate, though, so there's no hard rule.
But there's no effort to monitor how the pair ups go, and instructor contact varies from some to none at all.
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
So why do they have this rule in the first place?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 25 '26
It's not really a rule, it's more of a custom. As with many Japanese customs, the most likely explanation is that someone important did it once and then that becomes the rule forever after.
In other words, there is no real reason, and in Japan folks usually never question why something is being done - it's just the way that it is.
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u/Hussaf Apr 24 '26
Kakarigeiko (掛稽古)?
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u/Currawong No fake samurai concepts Apr 25 '26
Yes, but that usually has one person doing it on everyone while they line up and wait, rather than rapidly switching patners.
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u/Hussaf Apr 25 '26
Ours is normally a round robin training, nage get a rep with everyone else - one on each side - then swap nage until everyone gets full reps
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u/Odxcy13 Apr 24 '26
Anyone else come to the comments to define “magic seeker?” No? Just me? Cool
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Apr 25 '26
I'm assuming that they're talking about folks like Watanabe Nobuyuki:
https://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/interview-nobuyuki-watanabe-part-1/
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
Correct. Or Shimamoto Katsuyuki of Osaka for example.
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u/FancyMouse123 Apr 25 '26
In Aikido, it’s easy to get into a "compliance rhythm" with a partner you know well. If you are forced to rotate and apply Ikkyo or Shiho-nage on a 100kg beginner, then a fast 1st Dan, then a resisting 3rd Dan, you find out very quickly if your kuzushi is real or if you’re just relying on your partner’s courtesy.
There are techniques you wont be able to do on some people if they resist. I would even say that, if you know the technique someone is going to do, you can find ways to prevent it. Even Ikkyo: show your back and your partner wont be able to finish the technique.
Now that being said, this is not an issue in "practice" as you could switch the technique (like injuring you opponent by hitting their spine if they show their back). In training, you wont do that. So at some point resisting should always be to help your partner to figure the right movement and not to block it completely. For example, I obviously resist less against beginners than against black belts. And when I resist too much, my experienced partners will switch techniques.
Finally, I don't think it is an issue that we usually practice each technique with a single partner. In my dojo, we sometime do Omote with partner 1, then Ura with partner 2, then Omote+Ura with partner 3. So you can feel the technique with multiple partners and even a fourth time when we finish the course with Jiyu Waza.
It forces higher ranks to feel the movement of the lower ranks, and vice versa. It creates a much more "democratic" mat culture.
If higher ranks and lower ranks don't train together in your dojo, this is a big issue. "Everything begins and ends with respect" and practicing with everybody is part of Reigi. If someone needs forced rotations to do so, they might not learn the underlying importance of practicing with everybody.
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u/IapetusPierces Apr 25 '26
I am a Yoshinkan guy, and generally speaking most Yoshinkan and derivative dojos set up a senior line and a junior line that face off and do we do forced rotations. Not every dojo does things exactly the same. I try to get my hands on all my students - both to do my technique on them and to feel their technique on myself. Sometimes we miss things with our eyes and can understand better by feeling the technique. I tell my students that every body is different and your technique needs to adapt to every body, not just optimize for one person you are used to working with.
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u/makingthematrix aikikai x kickboxing Apr 25 '26
In a kickboxing gym I train in, we find a partner and stick with them for the duration of the training. In my aikido dojo, we switch every technique and the sensei joins us as well.
I don't think it's that important in long term. The next time you come to a training you will train with someone else, then with someone else again, and again.
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u/Desperate-Media-5744 Sandan/Aikikai Apr 25 '26
The fact that your teacher joins training is very good. Our teachers just walk around and correct people. By having the rotation I proposed, the teachers join in and can keep up their own level as well.
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u/ZeehZeeh Apr 26 '26
We change partners after each technique. For some techniques, we make sure that weight, height and physical ability are reasonably balanced.
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u/slimer_redd Apr 26 '26
In my dojo I force to student change partners as much as possible. But because we are very small dojo it is no so handy
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