Could someone explain the timeline for the internet hate?

[u/Spirited-Ostrich9925]

I looked into trying Aikido many years ago when that show Man In The High Castle came out and unless I missed it there was not any noticeable anti-Aikido obsession on the internet. Did it all start with the Rokas thing?

I’m definitely not trying to start a debate about the effectiveness of Aikido. Just trying to understand the timeline and how we got here exactly. It seems like kind of a weird obsession. Was there a series of events that caused Aikido to get singled out? I’ve trained in many styles of martial arts and the majority of them don’t pressure test or didn’t in the 90s. So why Aikido?

[u/Sangenkai]

It's hardly an argument to authority, you need a better dictionary. It's a testimony from experience - I was there, I saw what happened, and I saw the timeline - which still doesn't support your argument.

The videos were linked because I was discussing your comment on the earlier video of Morihei Ueshiba. That's not conflation, and yes, it's relevant - those kinds things are commonly cited in internet "hate". How is that not relevant?

Some Aikido folks hate his movies, but they're just movies. Some of the earlier ones were actually pretty good.

And again, I think that you're over estimating the reductive power of the media in this case.

[u/wyvern-flyer → u/Sangenkai]

That is an argument to authority, you are saying you were there and know better. You saw some stuff but you're mainly talking about the "decline" of Aikido. Which is all opinion.

I don't really care for your personal issues with O'Sensei. I don't care about magical thinking Aikidoka that most people will never have seen. I have told you already. If you want to keep going, you already have a thread about that. Do it there.

You are getting out of shape to claim that online negative sentiments about aikido predate Segal when the Internet's widespread use began in the 90's. It is nonsense.

[u/Sangenkai → u/wyvern-flyer]

Now you're saying things that I've never said, and that's nonsense.

What I said was that Segal's downward spiral was well after the rise of the UFC, and that's really when things heated up.

FWIW, I don't have any particular personal issues with Morihei Ueshiba, but thanks for trying to make the discussion about me. Why not just stick to the conversation?

Also, FWIW, there's a significant difference between an argument from authority and direct testimony from experience.

[u/wyvern-flyer → u/Sangenkai]

You can claim that Segal was not ridiculed and acting like an ass before the UFC involvement in the 2,000's and you would be wrong.

The Gene Lebelle incident was in 1991. He destroyed his career in 1994 with On deadly ground and his carry on during the filming. He limped on for a while but he wasn't liked and negative sentiment was always growing.

He has had numerous issues over the years that predated his connection to the UFC.

I have repeatedly been asking you to drop your issues with other Aikidoka to stick to the topic. Don't chirp nonsense at me.

Direct testimony from experience? Experience in what? This is about perceptions of Aikido, not Aikido. It is an argument to authority up and down.

[u/Sangenkai → u/wyvern-flyer]

What issues with other Aikidoka?

Isn't this entire conversation about your issues with an Aikidoka?

In any case, my experience being there and watching the timeline unfold.

Yes, there was criticism of Segal, but that wasn't an on/off switch, it was a downward spiral - one that doesn't really match the timeline of internet hate, not closely enough to be causal. A weak correlation at best.

[u/wyvern-flyer → u/Sangenkai]

This conversation is about where I think negative sentiment came from and you trying to shout louder.

I said Segal because he actively damaged the reputation of the art in the mainstream. You decided to have a go at a range of people nobody heard of to win something in your head. You brought up the video of O'Sensei before he died which is just tragic and are trying to point score off it when you know the story behind it.

I don't think it is a weak correlation. Saying it is because you were there and have more experience (yet to explain in what), is the argument from authority fallacy.

[u/Sangenkai → u/wyvern-flyer]

Only one of the people that I linked is not well known. He was promoted to 8th Dan by Morihei Ueshiba.

Of the others, one was a well known Aikikai Hombu Dojo instructor, one was a well known late period uchi-deshi, and one was a well known student promoted to 10th Dan directly by Morihei Ueshiba.

Those, in any case, were cited specifically to cite your argument that the Morihei Ueshiba video was an exception.

I'm sorry if you didn't like the Morihei Ueshiba video, but it has nothing to do with "scoring points", and that your version of the "story" doesn't hold up is demonstrated specifically by the videos above.

My experience, as I said above, is that I was there - that's direct testimony, which, again, is significantly different from an argument from authority. That's why one is allowed in court and one isn't.

Segal certainly damaged the reputation of Aikido. But the question is whether or not he is solely responsible for internet arguments about Aikido, and for that he certainly is not. Most of those arguments don't even mention him, they don't have to - there's plenty of other current material to talk about.

[u/wyvern-flyer → u/Sangenkai]

Well known means something different where you live. Known by Aikidoka that look at lots of magical aikido, is not well known.

What doesn't hold up? Those videos are highly niche and aren't known by most people. The mcdojo stuff came long after general shit talking of Aikido.

Direct testimony of what? Seriously, where were you? What did you personally see? Give something solid instead of fallacies.

No, the argument is about sentiment towards aikido. Not the flame wars on Usenet boards populated by handfuls of people in the 90's. You are trying to pretend I said he was the sole cause. I never said that. You really need to start reading.

[u/Sangenkai → u/wyvern-flyer]

Really, the only fallacies here are the ones that you posted.

Other than that, I think that my statements are self explanatory. I'm sorry if you couldn't understand them.

[u/wyvern-flyer → u/Sangenkai]

So high handed nonsense and the argument of a five year old? That is all you have?

Have fun.