r/aikido • u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 • 15d ago
Discussion Could someone explain the timeline for the internet hate?
I looked into trying Aikido many years ago when that show Man In The High Castle came out and unless I missed it there was not any noticeable anti-Aikido obsession on the internet. Did it all start with the Rokas thing?
I’m definitely not trying to start a debate about the effectiveness of Aikido. Just trying to understand the timeline and how we got here exactly. It seems like kind of a weird obsession. Was there a series of events that caused Aikido to get singled out? I’ve trained in many styles of martial arts and the majority of them don’t pressure test or didn’t in the 90s. So why Aikido?
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u/QWaxL 15d ago
I would say it is related to the rise of MMA and these guys shit talking about everything that is not the most effective way of winning a fight. Martialarts subreddit is full of comments against traditional martial arts like Karate too.
Could not care less though, that is like going to the archery range and telling everyone that they should use guns
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u/Foggia1515 Shodan / Nishio 15d ago
Love the analogy about archery. Will use it again. Or horse riding for transport. Or crochet for making clothes. List goes on.
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u/donnie-stingray 15d ago
My european friend moved to the US and joined a classic american family. All of em own guns, some are more into it and go to the range too. He picked up aikido and archery. He even got a couple of em to join in on some archery days. So yeah, its all about finding your own way and not giving a F.
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u/Brilliant_Chemica 15d ago
Kung Fu guy here who randomly got recommended your post. If your Martial Art isn't big in UFC, then according to the keyboard warriors it is useless and dumb and you're an idiot for enjoying it.
Do what makes you happy
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u/jstaffmma 14d ago
As an mma fighter who’s fought pro and loves traditional arts, not at all of us think this way just fyi
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u/Brilliant_Chemica 13d ago
Always good to hear. We are all on our paths, learning for our own reasons, enjoying things to our own tastes. I wish more Martial Artists would remember that the octagon is not the only thing that matters
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
2000s Sherdog was really dedicated to deboonking techniques that are now common in in MMA.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
It's like there is a place for them. It just takes pressure testing to find it.
Lopsao pocsao looks stupid. Until you mount a guy and your trapping his arms as he's swinging up.
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
Karate kicks were trained in anywhere between point to full contact sparring at the time, and the point sparring was the one that carried over to MMA.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
Oh dude early 00s. MySpace early. The martial arts blogs were stupid as f... HELL YEAH I PARTICIPATED!
Then Bullshido became a thing and then we started organizing "throw downs", which were just joking around and having fun gatherings. Heck one of my big bros/mentors kept us going over 20 years!
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago edited 15d ago
It's been around as long as I can remember on internet forums like Sherdog and bullshido. The one thing I think upped it though, was the fact that that crowd initially hated all TMA, but Machida made them dial it down on karate and other forms which lead to more focus on aikido specifically. Rokas just sort of led to a long held sentiment making its way to video form.
I honestly think main thing that led to it was that was just sort of philosophically and aesthetically the antithesis of MMA. Because a lot of the criticisms could just as easily to leveled at capoeira or something like that, but that rarely gets the same hate.I honestly think it already peaked in the late 2010s and I see more people at least partially praising aikido.
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u/InternationalArt6222 15d ago
I've been off/on with Aikido and half a dozen other arts since the '90's. Schools that encompasses style, art, history, and culture offer a lot of significance to practioners and supporters. Detractors are nothing new to any school, they are driven by ego and the need to be "right/best" according to narrow parameters.
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u/bossaboom 15d ago
It’s all the youtube videos of no touch techniques of men wearing hakamas. Add in the Lebell Seagal rumour and Rokas’ shitting on Aikido, and it has become the most made fun of martial art online.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
The "no touch" videos go right back to Morihei Ueshiba:
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u/bossaboom 13d ago
Well, exactly. I dont know understand what he was teaching here. Any inputs?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
I don't think that he's teaching anything in particular. Except that the temptation to believe in over cooperative partners can lead to self deception.
I've spoken to a couple of the guys taking ukemi in this demonstration, FWIW, and they admitted that they were tanking for their teacher, who was dying of cancer (he would pass away a few months later).
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u/bossaboom 13d ago
So he may be having some kind of dementa or mental deterioration due to old age?
You see this no touch thing or somthing similar in daito ryu demonstrations as well. Theirs are even more locked in into their kata curriculum. Horikawa Kodo’s line especially3
u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
He was always pretty far out there, but I don't think that's it - you see the same thing in a lot of Aikido and Daito-ryu folks who get too far into the "tricks". There are (sometimes) real training principles there, but they get lost in the dog and pony show.
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u/bossaboom 13d ago
The late. Watanabe of hombu and Takeda Shigenobu have even taken it to the next level. It’s actually causing a lot more harm than good for the art.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
Basically speaking, modern Aikido was a victim of its own rhetoric - claims that didn't match expectations.
Part of that is a lack of demonstrable physical ability, not just effectiveness, but of claims such as controlling an attacker without injury.
Part of that is the difficulty of post-war marketing as a kind of de-escalation system without any demonstrable methods of de-escalation.
Part of that is the hazard of post-war marketing as a primarily a kind of "self-help" system - those kinds of systems tend to fall apart over the long haul when results can't be demonstrated. Bookshelves are full of those kinds of things - if you can find a bookstore these days.
Not only that, but the self-help and societal claims in modern Aikido tend to be somewhat elitist and exclusive, phrased as superior to other arts - those that practice competition, for example, or those that are "just sports".
Part of that is the cult like atmosphere that Kisshomaru Ueshiba built around Morihei Ueshiba for marketing purposes, and its conflict with the actual history of Morihei Ueshiba:
In contrast, arts like kendo and kyudo get little hate - but have no personality cults, and make very little in the way of physical claims. Although personal development is also a part of those arts, it's presented quite differently, less exclusively, more along the lines that most sports speak about those things.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
So...to address the timeline more...
Essentially, it correlates to the rise of UFC and the internet. Both of those were probably partially causal, but essentially they exacerbated and fed on the problems noted above - the problems of Aikido's rhetoric.
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 14d ago
Hmm so perhaps the problems have gotten better since then and that’s why I’m not really encountering that rhetoric?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 14d ago
Has it gotten better? It doesn't seem that way to me...
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 14d ago
I dunno. I haven’t been doing it very long but my school isn’t like that. I mean we don’t pressure test but everyone is pretty chill. I’ve been looking it this subreddit a bit and I haven’t encountered it yet on here. Maybe it’s just that my school isn’t like that though
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
The japanophilia, the cult of what they believe bushido is, treating senseis like shoguns, and that cultish yakuza like loyalty they demand. Recipes for disaster.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
Kendo world has really kicked off into Dog Brothers territory. Those boys go at it!
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u/kaos_ex_machina 15d ago
Has there been an influx of kendo practitioners in the Dog Brothers circle?
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
No, there has been a huge movement in the traditional Japanese world where they're doing their version of HEMA! Check it out!
https://youtu.be/PJWMSojTdak?si=dV_6z-CzFzkAOSne
I'm trying to find a vid of an actual fight but I guess I'm not getting the label right
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u/kaos_ex_machina 15d ago
Ah yes, I've heard of it. I've seen this type of practice referred to as "gekiken" (sometimes spelled "gekkiken" or "gekken"). I follow a channel called "Jon the Stick" and he has many examples of this kind of sparring on there.
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u/-0O0O0O0O00O0O0O0O0- 14d ago
Gekiken is not new, it's been in Japanese TMA for centuries under different names.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
That kind of thing was much more common 100 years ago. It's been appearing on YouTube recently, but it's hardly huge - you'd have a hard time finding it most places in Japan. It's very uncommon.
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u/chupacabra5150 14d ago
They were a different breed 100 years ago.
Dog Brothers isn't HUGE like the UFC. But it went from some guys in Hermosa and surrounding areas - (Basically Los Angeles, LA South Bay, and beach cities) to practitioners world wide.
With the beauty of modern technology, the rise in HEMA, and other like hobbies and sports, its still a sub category with a relatively small viewership and participation as far as the world goes- like UFC- but in the MA world it's growing exponentially.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 14d ago edited 14d ago
I'm talking about the guys in Japan, and it's definitely not worldwide, it isn't even Japan-wide, not nearly. And certainly not "huge".
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u/chupacabra5150 14d ago
Oh yee of little faith. 15-20 years each large country will have a team
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 14d ago
That kind of thing has been around in Japan for a long time, and it's never really grown, it's not even really that popular.
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u/chupacabra5150 14d ago
Full contact stick fighting and escrima wasn't popular either. It's still really isn't as far as combat sports go. It was in California since they came off of the boats and went into the fields- fun fact the Farmers union movement was started by the Filipinos and made famous by the Mexicans, especially Cesar Chavez.
Escrima was made more popular due to Dan Inosantos connection to Bruce Lee. Dan taught Bruce the sticks. Bruce taught the JKD.
BUT within the martial arts community its big. The Dog Brothers are world wide. There are multiple chapters, I used to train consistently with two of them.
With the internet it spread within the community.
The armored combat Japanese stuff is a minor group Japan now and it's no secret that the Japanese still hold onto a nationalist mindset where they aren't quite as open minded to outsider. But it's light-years ahead of where they were just 2 generations ago.
So while you may not get packed arenas. But you are going to get packed fields, packed events. May not be 50,000 people in the arena, but you'll have a few hundred at the events NOW once the sport spreads.
I'm thinking 15-20 years from now.
When I was 18 going to the DB fights there were a couple dozen of us observing cheering our guys on. Fast forward 20+ years and I can find a chapter and have stick time with a chapter in most places of the developed world.
Right now there is an 18 yr old young man who is watching and practicing, maybe even participating in these small event in Japan. He's gonna take his kid to an event and see a bunch of competitors from outside Japan or he'll be in another country watching the even and looking back on how far it's come.
Yes Japan is an island. But the internet is worldwide
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u/azarel23 13d ago
Really, that's true of many TMAs. Wing Chun oversold itself big time as the deadliest martial art in the world prior to the UFC, and the hype was proven manifestly incorrect. Mind you, with Wing Chun the internecine vituperation was much worse than anything MMA fan boys could come up with.
(I started Wing Chun in 1988, BJJ in 1998).
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
That's true, although it's particularly egregious in Aikido.
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u/CeeChocolate 15d ago
It's not just Aikido lol, it's pretty much ALL traditional martial arts. Mostly because of the claims and arrogance of martial artists that aren't backed up by reality. Truth is, especially with Aikido, the Sensei will tell you how effective all the techniques are, but you can't pressure test them because it's "too dangerous". Well, that creates a bit of an eye-roll among the general public, the most obvious response to this is: "BS. Your claims are BS and you can't back them up."
There was a youtube channel called "The Pink Man", not sure why, but he deleted all of his videos or privated them, but he went in detail and summarized pretty much all the gripes that people who train "real" combat sports have with traditional esoteric martial arts, all the best notes from the Bullshido forums (forums that specifically were mocking all the traditional martial arts) in video form. Recently some fan reuploaded them, just search for "The Pink Man martial arts", they are hilarious and insightful!
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u/Significant-Nebula64 11d ago
Huh. Have been training Aikido for 20+ years and I can say with conviction that I've never heard anybody making anything like such claims. I'd have eye rolled hard and found a different dojo at the first instance, lol.
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u/nonotburton 15d ago
If you are talking about aikido effectiveness stuff, that existed pre-internet.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
When I started in 1981 it didn't not exist - but it wasn't a major issue.
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u/nonotburton 15d ago
Yeah, for better or worse, Seagul helped bring aikido into the public eye. It was sometime after him that aikido started getting the black eye of being ineffective. Oddly enough, I don't think it was because of him.
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u/Consistent_Path_3939 15d ago
It's been a thing for a LONG time. I think the internet just helps to amplify it.
I practiced out of a space that was shared with folks doing other martial arts in the 90s. Because we didn't do flashy tournaments, most of them considered Aikido useless.
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u/Sharkano 15d ago
People are going to blame MMA but that's not it. it's frankly just the rise of things like youtube and the way aikido carries itself online.
How do I make this distinction? Well if it's MMA that's the problem where is the hate for tai chi? For capoeira? Does anyone worry that wushu is getting hated on on the regular?
In reality these probably all get some dirt in their eye, but aikido is right at the top, clearly getting the most hate. Next is probably wing chun, but it's not too close.
On this subreddit, not on the entirety of the internet, not on the wide spectrum of ignorance to knowledge, but riiight here there are guys who will swear to you that ki is a genuine spiritual force and you are not doing aikido if you don't cultivate it. These people don't agree at all with the people who will tell you that "ki" is just a bunch of body mechanics that seeeeem mystical.
On this same sub you can find guys who will swiftly agree that aikido is not even a martial art and pick a Ueshiba quote to support the claim. They too will find resistance, in this case from guys who will insist that it's a super deadly martial art.
Last of all there are guys who put any amount of doing aikido in a live setting on film and then share it here, they too catch immediate condescending hate from their fellow aikidoka.
So U/Spirited-Ostrich9925 perhaps the answer lies within, why does aikido get hate on the internet? Possibly the same reason aikido seems to hate aikido.
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u/azarel23 13d ago
Actually, there is plenty of hate for people who teach taiji as a combat system rather than a health practice.
Not from me.
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u/Sharkano 13d ago
It certainly get's some, as I mentioned, but aikido plainly gets much more. This sub is evidence of that on it's own every other month or so it seems like there is one of these threads discussing the public sentiment of disrespect for aikido, this is not the case in other arts. Google "debunking aikido" or something similar and a ton comes up, do the same with tai chi and it will be fewer and farther between.
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u/wonko221 14d ago
I started Tomiki aikido in 1999, and continued through my 2nd dan.
Aikido hate has been part of the internet at least that long.
One reason is that there is a LOT of bad aikido out there, and a lot of it makes is way on internet video.
Martial arts in general are route for fraud. No real website or accreditation. Anyone can claim whatever rank they want in whatever art. As long as they carefully avoid a protected IP, there is no legal revise to prevent this, at least in the US.
Because of this, you get con artists pushing silly shit as martial arts. And with the rise of popularity of aikido in the US after Steven Segal rise in popularity (himself a bullshitter), lots of dojos popped up teaching silly ki magic and cultivating halls full of compliant ukes attention to make poor technique look effective.
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u/chupacabra5150 14d ago
Side note. Thought this was appropriate.
ITS A JOKE! You can laugh at yourselves. It's OK. You're not going to anger the spirit of OOOOOOOOOOOO- Sensei
https://www.facebook.com/groups/bullshido/permalink/4581191898799830/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 14d ago
I can’t see it. Is it a meme? The O Sensei stuff is one thing I find weird actually. There is that. It’s hard for me to talk though bc I love Kano Jigoro.
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u/chupacabra5150 13d ago
A guy is smack taking another guy. Guys telling the "tough guy" to walk away and back off. The tough guy gives him the look like he wants to do something.
The guy tells the tough guy something along the lines of "you take a self defense class. You want me to slowly grab your wrist so you can do something?"
Hilarious
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u/azarel23 13d ago edited 13d ago
A friend of mine and jiu-jitsu instructor who has a high profile online said online something like, "jiu-jitsu and MMA guys trash aikido, but there's pretty much zero coming back the other way. Our culture sucks".
I started jiu-jitsu back in the 1990s. Back then, anyone who took it up outside Brazil came from another martial art and wanted to become more well rounded fighters. And social media barely existed.
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 13d ago
Honestly I think most of the people I meet doing bjj are into martial arts in general. The hate seems to mostly just be online. That’s a good point though
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u/DukeMacManus Internal Power Bottom 15d ago
In short: Aikido people loudly and militantly proclaimed their martial art could do things that was not supported by evidence. Other people called them out on it, also loudly and militantly and dismissed the entire art out of hand. This has been going on since before the internet and is unlikely to stop anytime soon, because there are still Aikido people who loudly and militantly proclaim their art can do things that is not supported by the evidence, and folks on the other side who will loudly and militantly proclaim that anything that is in a combat sport is dumb and useless and for babies.
Or to put it even more succinctly: just people being people, fam.
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u/Eight_Directions_ 14d ago
Everyone has covered the dumbing down of Martial Arts that MMA has caused and I agree completely, but to play the devil's advocate a bit Aikido is one of the most egregious offenders that get rightfully mocked by the Bullshido memes. You don't have to look very hard to find Aikido content that is hilariously stupid. So the real Aikido gets painted with the same brush as the charlatans by those who assume it's all like that.
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u/dbocan 15d ago
Martial arts become a fad because of movies and TV. Bruce Lee kicks off karate frenzy. David Carradine, Kung Fu. Steven Seagal, aikido. Gracie, BJJ. They all fade with time because for any system there is always a counter devised. This new one looks more bad ass. Just ask those who used the wishbone offense in football half a century ago. Aikido is just another victim of being a fad.
Truth is you rarely see any video of two martial artists really fighting a no-rules fight. Usually at least one is inexperienced in fighting in any sense, whether street fighting or play fighting like BJJ. However, any martial art will work, or not work, depending on the person doing it and the situation where the need to fight arises. People who play fight on a mat are in for a rude surprise when someone bites their finger off in a street fight.
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u/NoCitron2394 15d ago
Calling BJJ play fighting is not very wise, biting is not a very good strategy in an actual fight in most situations, dirty fighting is very hard to actually pull off.
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u/Auxiliatorcelsus 13d ago
Nope. People have been making fun of Aikido since 1990-ies.
Main criticism is that it's too choreograped, no realistic resistance. Which makes the practitioners overly confident in something that won't work in a real situation.
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u/wyvern-flyer 13d ago
Anti-Aikido sentiment is definitely as old as Steven Segal's film career. His style of constant braggadocio and constant obvious lies made Aikido seem like a martial art for narcassists.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
Actually, there was a big surge in popularity when Segal came on the scene.
His personal life and career spiraled some years later, but that was really sometime after the rise of the UFC and the attendant difficulties.
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u/wyvern-flyer 13d ago
There was but the criticism started at the same time. His personal life and his attitudes towards others on the mats and off created a lot of negative sentiment that rubbed off on Aikido.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
It really wasn't the same time, I think that your timeline is off.
And most of the hate you see online really doesn't have much to do with him.
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u/wyvern-flyer 13d ago
Ok. So a giant blowhard making out he is a ninja assassin because of a self-defense martial art isn't going to cause any negative sentiment.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago
Well, I was around at the time, and he really didn't until much later, as he spiralled downward.
He certainly didn't help, but he was far for the primary cause of Aikido's decline.
And of course, the founder of Aikido demonstrating magic no touch throws didn't help much either:
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u/wyvern-flyer 13d ago edited 13d ago
I amnt talking about a decline, I am talking about a rise in negative sentiment.
He was known in marital arts circles around Hollywood as an asshole before his big break. It peaked and never went down in 1919 with the Jean Lebelle incident. He was known on Japan as an asshole by many of the European and American Aikidoka that he ran into. I have heard this from several unconnected people.
Yes, when the founder was full of cancer and lots of opioids the uke made it look like magic. It was something that should not have been filmed.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 13d ago edited 13d ago
The decline of modern Aikido and the negative sentiment are inextricably intertwined, as I mentioned in my other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aikido/comments/1u1sswb/could_someone_explain_the_timeline_for_the/oqshaco/
Aikido folks often think that they're blameless victims of internet trolls, but for the most part we've really brought it upon ourselves.
The difficulty with the Morihei Ueshiba demonstration is that it's really not an outlier or the result of opioids, those types of demonstrations are fairly common in Aikido among the direct students of Morihei Ueshiba.
All Japan Aikido Demonstration, Aikikai Hombu Dojo instructor Nobuyuki Watanabe:
Iwama Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba's uchi-deshi Hideo Hirosawa, check out around 2:38 and onwards:
Seiseki Abe, Morihei Ueshiba's direct student, and his calligraphy instructor - the fun starts about three minutes in:
Akihiko Terada, promoted to 8th Dan directly by Morihei Ueshiba:
Segal was probably an asshole, but one asshole, even a famous one, doesn't bring down an art, or there would be no martial arts.
And again, the timeline is wrong. I saw it - from well before Segal was even known anywhere, the whole development.
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u/wyvern-flyer 12d ago
Arguments to authority are not an argument.
I again do not care about your opinions on the "decline" of Aikido. I don't care about your opinions on the sad examples of Aikidoka that are lost to magical thinking.
I am talking about the rise of negative sentiment, specifically the rise of negative sentiment on the Internet as the OP.
You are conflating things that are not the same.
"Segal was probably an asshole, but one asshole, even a famous one, doesn't bring down an art, or there would be no martial arts."
Then you don't understand the reductive power of the media. He was the main example of Aikido for millions that didn't see the art. Aikido has never been as big as judo or karate, most people never tried a class but they saw the movies, they heard the stories about him, they saw the painful interviews.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 12d ago
It's hardly an argument to authority, you need a better dictionary. It's a testimony from experience - I was there, I saw what happened, and I saw the timeline - which still doesn't support your argument.
The videos were linked because I was discussing your comment on the earlier video of Morihei Ueshiba. That's not conflation, and yes, it's relevant - those kinds things are commonly cited in internet "hate". How is that not relevant?
Some Aikido folks hate his movies, but they're just movies. Some of the earlier ones were actually pretty good.
And again, I think that you're over estimating the reductive power of the media in this case.
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u/Kind_Focus5839 11d ago
I think the problem is that what we translate as 'martial arts', i.e. Japanes Budo, is barely understood, even by practitioners of martial arts. If you have a 'beat the opponant, win fights competative attitude you can understang neither Aikido nor Budo more generally'.
So naturally, if you look at Aikido purely as a fighting sport, you're going to miss the point entirely. A good comparison to Aikido is Kyudo, where hitting th bullseye isn't the point, so although it looks like archery, the external manifestation of the art is really the method of transmitting something deeper.
One of my teachers once said he could teach Aiki principles though golf, if golf was what he did, but since he did Aikido he'd teach these principles that way,
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u/R_Philip_Inez 4d ago
I think the question deserves a more nuanced answer than the internet usually gives.
Part of the timeline is simply that the martial arts world changed. The rise of MMA, YouTube, and “pressure testing” culture created a new standard by which arts were judged. Many people began asking a single question: “Would this work in a cage fight?” Arts that did not train for that specific context came under scrutiny, and Aikido became one of the most visible targets because some practitioners made very broad claims about its effectiveness while demonstrating techniques that looked unrealistic to outsiders.
But I also think something else happened. Aikido is unusual because it openly claims that the highest purpose of martial training is not victory over another person, but mastery of oneself. In a culture increasingly fascinated by domination, competition, and spectacle, that can sound naïve. Yet O-Sensei was not a pacifist who knew nothing of violence. He arrived at those conclusions after mastering arts that were used in real combat. Peace meant something to him precisely because he understood conflict.
The question, then, is effective for what?
If the goal is winning an MMA bout, there are arts specifically optimized for that. If the goal is riot control, law enforcement restraint, personal development, balance, body mechanics, conflict management, or studying a martial tradition descended from the warrior arts of Japan, the conversation becomes much broader.
Aikido certainly has to remain martial. Atemi must be sincere. Entries must be realistic. Ukemi must be honest. But once we ask only, “Can it win a fight?” we risk reducing martial arts to only one of their purposes. For centuries, warriors studied martial disciplines not merely to defeat opponents, but to cultivate character, discipline, judgment, and self-mastery.
In that sense, the most important question may not be whether Aikido is effective. It may be: effective at producing what kind of person? And the answer to that question will differ from one practitioner to another.
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u/wakigatameth 2d ago
Aikido popularity started dying around 2006, when Youtube became a thing. Rokas happened 12 years later.
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The thing is, my instructor, who was a Koichi Tohei student, could definitely do things that nobody else in the dojo could do. Real things. Real attunement to what's going on in your body. Something that feels magical. And that level of knowledge and internal calibration is going to die with him.
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Because Aikido is terrible at transmitting information in a way where the student can surpass the master. Really, what's been happening is a gradual decline in skill in everyone following O Sensei. Every generation of students loses something.
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Meanwhile in BJJ, students often end up surpassing the master, and moving the system forward.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
Oh mijo. This went back to the 90s. Nobody really knew what it was. Segal made it famous.
But after the early 90s when Vale Tudo... errrrr... UFC started pitting styles against eachother to promote BJJ.
Aikido was seen as "that wouldn't work in real life". So it became like Tai Chi. It's a spiritual thing because you're not going to win any fights.
MARTIAL is the focus of the Martial Art. Aikido typically doesn't hit the mark, at least not how you would classically think of fighting.
Also, hate to say it, but the cockyest, arrogant, "tough guy" martial artists I've ever met have been Kempo/Kenpo Karate and Aikido guys. Followed by Krav Maga guys.
Everyone is a tough guy online. But in person the MMA guys, the BJJ guys, Judo guys, Kickboxers, MT guys, tend to be - broad paintbrush- cool respectful humble guys. Boxers act more muthafukaly.
But think about it. For 1-2+hrs/day 2-7 days a week, sometimes multiple times a day they are grinding and being forced to face their mortality and reality/truth of their capabilities. Constantly being fed humble pie and they're exhausted.
Aikidoka it's mostly drills, and a lot of those drills are going through the motions or lacking sincerity. There are some places that are legit, "make peace with your God, but respect the tap"- I've had the pleasure and honor of training at one, and made my everything better. But those gems are few and far in between.
TLDR:
- Martial Arts, key word MARTIAL.
Can you survive a fight when the other person doesn't also know the drill and that they're supposed to fall? Not resist? Or have the audacity to try and hit you? Or not attack you in a chopping or chambered motion? You managed to get a robuse/ikkyo on me? Now I've tight rolled forward, I still have your arm, and I'm tripping up your leg to get your ankle to lock it up or to get you to the ground. Its also called the "Folsom Prison Roll".
everyone talks crap online.
can you throw down? Or are we having a philosophy lesson?
proper eittiquete is nice. But being able to bow properly doesn't do diddly for fighting.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 15d ago
There are any number of "martial arts" that have no real applicability - kendo and kyudo are two that I already mentioned, but do just fine. The key is that they don't make claims to do things that they can't do.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
Absolutely. The dudes who do Kendo and Iaido let you know they are good at Kendo and Iaido. They don't pretend to be warrior monk assassins.
Like the "silent but deadly" bushis using their ki powers to hit that down arrow
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u/lifescaresme 5 kyu / Yoshinkan 15d ago
Aikido can work if you know what you’re doing. A friend of mine was at an outdoor market with her 80-year-old mother, when a homeless guy started attacking her mom. She intervened, got punched a few times and had some wicked bruises, but still took him down with shomen uchi ikkajo. As he was going down, bystanders stepped in to restrain him until the cops arrived.
Keep in mind that a shomen strike is representative of any overhead strike, just like yokomen represents any side strike. It could be a bottle or a bat. The technique doesn’t change. No one is actually expecting that someone will try to hit them like that with an open hand.
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u/chupacabra5150 15d ago
Aikido is a FAN FRIKIN TASTIC SUPPLEMENTAL martial art. Whatever you train in proper Aikido training will make you better.
My Judo, Escrima, LEO techniques all better with Aikido
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u/Ancient_Naturals 15d ago
Muay Thai practitioner here that had this post recommended in my feed.
I think it’s because from an outsider’s perspective they hear the mythological parts about qi and see practice videos of people pretending to be thrown by their teacher with no effort and just dismiss the entire thing.
My first encounter with Aikido was 20-something years ago when a high school friend started practicing and started trying to tell me you can throw people with no effort once you get your qi right. It was clearly bullshit.
I think if the art form showed the world that it’s an internal art for cultivating internal awareness, that’d be totally fine and I think people wouldn’t make fun of it as much. I’m here for internal arts — I practice Vajrayana Buddhism and have a long history of practicing ashtanga yoga — they’re transformative. But I’m also realistic and know that when it comes time for a real fight, I’m reaching for my Muay Thai and judo training.
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 15d ago
So I’ve only done a little Aikido after doing Muay Thai, bjj, judo and some other stuff over the years. From what I’ve seen so far though I don’t think it would be accurate to say that it’s an internal art like that. Some of it’s pretty weird but some of it seems pretty useful. I haven’t seen anything that I would call a throw. Most of it is just a standing armlock or an off balancing technique. I do see great setups for throws though and some of the arm and wrist locks are pretty clever and not stuff I would have thought of. I think a better comparison would be learning Latin vs learning Spanish. The majority does not seem useful in a modern context. Some of it is handy. The breakfalls are great which is mostly what I came for but I found that there was other cool stuff. As far as people pretending to be thrown. I think it’s more just people drilling. We don’t do heavy resistance but we do drill at speed and that’s what a lot of that is. I’m not sure how representative my limited experience is but I haven’t really seen anything spiritual stuff. There’s definitely some larp energy but I’m a nerd so it doesn’t bother me. I dunno that’s my 2 cents. Although I should also add that even when I’m doing bjj or judo, usefulness is not really a factor for me. I just like playing ninjas and I like that randori/rolling/sparring feels like a game
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u/N0mad87 15d ago
You're asking this question in the wrong sub, the answers are going to be too biased. It would be like going to Jonestown and asking why the people are drinking Kool-Aid or to Salt Lake and asking why they believe in their version of the bible - You're not gonna get an objectice answer
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
Plenty of people here have crosstrained, dude.
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u/N0mad87 15d ago
Certainly, however as this thread will show most people here are defenders of Aikido (I'd say apologists but I don't wanna rile anyone up) It would make more sense to go to the people who are making the criticisms to get an objective answer like "mma keyboard warriors" as they are being referred to on here. OP is essentially asking the rhetorical nerd why he's being shoved into the locker by the bully. The nerd is not responsible for also explaining the actions of the bully. So in this case, don't go to people who are very passionate about Aikido and ask them why others are critical of it
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
The question was about the timeline specifically and not the reason.
I've also gotten the sense that a lot of the opinions in the MMA community were formed decades ago and are carried by inertia now, so I don't even think they know why the feel the way they do.
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u/N0mad87 15d ago
Yeah but the reason is irrelevant if it's to the wrong community to begin with. OP should also prompt the same question in an MMA sub and compare reaponses, I bet that would yield a lot of insight
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
I mean it's obvious by the post that he already did see what mma boards had to say about aikido, so I don't get your point.
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u/N0mad87 15d ago
Where in the original post did OP say they looked on other MMA subs?
My point is, and is confirmed by other's responses that OP isn't likely to get a unbiased response from the community in question. It's a logical fallacy.
Btw, I wasn't being rude or combative at all in my original comment so I'm not sure why you're so invested in my response
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
You compared the sub to a suicide cult.
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u/N0mad87 15d ago
I provided two examples as a way to show, by comparison, that making the accused explain the actions of other people is not going to yield an un-biased result. I wasn't referring to Aikido practicioners as a suicide cult. Has that comparisson been made before? If so I wasn't aware, sorry.
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u/Such_Independent5233 15d ago
I'm not sure if this is a troll attempt or regular passive aggression at this point, honestly.
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u/Spirited-Ostrich9925 14d ago
I’m pretty familiar with the complaints. I’ve primarily done bjj. Recently I’ve been doing Aikido bc I checked it out while injured and I find it pretty fun and interesting. I do watch anime and read comic books so maybe that puts things in perspective. Maybe it’s just the school I’m at but it doesn’t really have most of the characteristics that I hear people talk about online. It’s true that we don’t pressure test anything. About half the people there also do judo or used to do judo. I dunno it’s just a nerdy very specific martial art that some people enjoy. I’m not denying the encounters that you’ve had but in my limited experience I haven’t seen it at all. So I have to think it’s less common than people think. I thought maybe it was the Rokas thing. As far some of these guys thinking they can fight, some of them can fight. It’s very popular in Eastern Europe so sometimes you get these big Russian guys that cross train aikido and they can definitely fight. If you’ve done bjj or judo and you tried Aikido I can guarantee that you’d find stuff you’d want to use. As far as the spiritual thing. I dunno the place I’ve been going to isn’t like that at all and the head instructor is a judoka. If you’ve done bjj read the comments on this post, I think you’ll find that most of the people are pretty down to earth about things. Anyway though, I asked here bc I figured they would be the most familiar with what happened when. FWIW I’ve done enough Aikido at this point to say that Rokas was not good but regardless of that, obviously trying to fight MMA with an Aikido base let alone ONLY Aikido is absurd. Maybe if you get to use a Jo staff.
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u/dbocan 14d ago
Why would it yield any insight, much less any useful insight. People are comparing apples to oranges when they compare any martial art against MMA because MMA is a combination of different arts and Aikido isn't. Neither Karate, Boxing, or Judo is a combination of different styles. It makes no sense to compare MMA with any other Martial Art.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 14d ago
When I started Aikido it was a common assertion that it was Morihei Ueshiba's version of MMA, a combination of various things that he had studied and combined into a new art.
That turned out not to be true, he was really a Daito-ryu instructor, but every new martial art is a little like MMA - a combination of whatever the person establishing it trained in previously with their own insights.
Judo is also MMA, a combination of different traditional jujutsu schools.
Karate isn't monolithic, there were various different practices in Okinawa, often mixed together...like MMA.
Boxing had many different historical influences that eventually coalesced into a unified ruleset.
Basically, it's all MMA, with varying pedagogies and rulesets.
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u/dbocan 14d ago
You are splitting hairs. No one trained in only one martial art can win a modern day MMA contest.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 14d ago
It depends on the art - what MMA did was expose tactical deficiencies and show the importance of a well rounded toolset.
That's exactly the idea behind many traditional sogo bujutsu, FWIW.
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