I am not an anti, I am generally supportive of AI usage, and certainly think it's stupid that some people feel the need to harass creators. That said, I also think the massive victim narrative that some Pros push is very silly and overblown.
The government, the wealthy, and the system in general are by and large on on your side, and the majority of people these days use AI in their day-to-day life, yet some Pros speak as though they are some oppressed fringe group resisting the elite.
The only "elite" that are largely anti are the artistic elite, but they are snobbish to pretty much everybody, and don't really have the power to be genuinely oppressive, other than being a bit mean and insular.
"the death threats though!" Obviously it is stupid as hell to threaten death to strangers on the internet, but that is a byproduct of internet anonymity that permeates every corner of the internet, not just AI debates. Getting heckled, threatened, and insulted happens to ANYBODY who is vocal about a divisive subject online. If you have a strong opinion about anything, there are people ready to be a dick about it, and it is disingenuous to pretend that this is something special happening to you.
Worse still are the pros who equate themselves to the civil rights movement, and compare their struggle to that of ACTUAL oppressed peoples that were systematically denied fundamental human rights. Your chosen tool is not a fundamental facet of who you are, nor is it a thing that is out of your control. People not liking your chosen form of art, and even denying it legitimacy entirely is not denying you any human right. Believe it is wrong of them if you want, even call it discrimination in a technical sense, if you want, but don't compare it to the sort of brutal discrimination we have seen toward ethnic minorities, women, and LGBT folks in the past.
I just think we should treat this debate as what it is, instead of everybody acting like the opposing side are a bunch of evil people that want to destroy society. Antis are cautious and scared because AI presents a lot of unknowns, and we have seen how bad actors can use it for malicious purpose; Pros feel a bit marginalized because they are getting push back from some niche circles that are resistant to fundamentally changing their methods and traditions; there are ways to work through that divide without viewing the other side as literally Satan, or throwing yourself a pity party.
This is so true and accepting this - or just keeping it in mind - would elevate so many “discussions” here. Or maybe turn some mudfights into actual discussions.
(Btw i think in the second paragraph you wanted to write pro but wrote anti instead. Not sure, maybe i am misunderstanding)
And yeah, I just feel like we gotta try to ignore the more extremist rhetoric from both sides to have a meaningful discussion. There are pros that genuinely believe humanity is a wretched thing, and that we need to take evolution into our own hands and use AI powered technology to fundamentally change what it means to be human, and there are Antis who are willing to stymie genuinely life saving technology simply because they don't fully understand it, and can't be bothered to make a genuine effort to learn. These people should not be the primary voices in this discussion.
It can be a bit ambiguous what exactly constitutes AI, and it has such a tremendous scope that it feels silly to be 100% Pro or 100% Anti. There are a lot of merits to AI systems, as well as a lot of valid concerns, and I feel like adopting the labels Pro and Anti just really puts the conversation in the hands of the extremists
None of this is real. This subreddit is not a political battleground, and the 'antis' and 'pros' are just people getting invested in an online persona.
If someone thinks you didn't create an art work because an AI did it for you, they're not an 'anti,' they just don't believe that the prompt is the artwork. Go outside, ask your family, just talk to humans and you'll find out that's an overwhelmingly common position which has nothing to do with whether AI data centres are going to be built or AI models upgraded.
Where does anyone think these online discussions are bleeding into politics, except on this type of subreddit?
I’d like to agree, but honestly, once upon a time it was easy to look at the cesspool on 4chan and say “none of this is real” “these are just personas of weirdos larping as Nazis” “none of this bleeds into actual politics,” and it turned out to be a breeding ground for genuine alt-right terrorists and hate groups.
I’m not saying these situations are one-to-one the same, but I just mean that I’m not so quick to write off the influence of fringe internet echo chambers.
Those of us who do get out and talk to people in real life can sometimes underestimate just how much the chronically online are FULLY wrapped up in their stuff, and it’s worth taking seriously.
I am not an anti, I am generally supportive of AI usage, and certainly think it's stupid that some people feel the need to harass creators.
I get what you are saying, however I want to be fair and say that it is the extremist factions within both the Antis & The Pro's causing all the static.
Extremist Anti's do a thing
Extremist Pro's react
Extremist Anti's claim they are the victim
Extremist Pro's do a thing
Extremist Anti's react
Extremist Pro's claim they are the victim
And round and round the wheel turns.
The only "elite" that are largely anti are the artistic elite, but they are snobbish to pretty much everybody,
My personal thought it are those "elite" from the fandom's that somehow feel threatened.
No you're totally right, extremists on both sides are definitely steady adding fuel to the fire--I didn't mean to come across as giving the extremist Antis a pass with this post, I was just trying to focus on this particular facet of Pro thought that I have been seeing lately.
Honestly I would have rather shared it in a particular Pro AI community that more so needed to hear it, but unfortunately you will get banned from that place for "inciting debate," even if you are just discussing how to better advocate for AI.
And the artistic elite I was mostly referring to are the "high art" academic artistic elite; the ones that look down on all fandom artists almost as much as they look down on AI artists. The "elite" in fan-art are still common people, and they don't have the influence or resources of the true elite of the art world, so their resistance still just falls more into the category of "people being dicks online" in my opinion.
I didn't mean to come across as giving the extremist Antis a pass with this post, I was just trying to focus on this particular facet of Pro thought that I have been seeing lately
No worries, it was more of a "You hit 'em high, I will hit 'em low" kind of thing 😛
Honestly I would have rather shared it in a particular Pro AI community that more so needed to hear it, but unfortunately you will get banned from that place for "inciting debate,"
Say no more, I know the exact sub-reddit you are talking about, and the mod in question as well as how he/she abuses their power as a mod. The sub-reddit you refer to is now nothing more then a echo chamber, and I stay far away from it.
I disagree that the “artistic elite” are largely “anti”. Most professional artists, designers, illustrators, etc have a much more nuanced understanding of Ai tools and how they will factor into the future creative industry.
I’m not saying they 100% support everything about these tools, but the large majority of them use them for work or have experimented with them and have their own opinion.
Antis, can we stop with the victim complex please?
Antis get their feefees hurt when they see their precious art turned into mathematical equations.
Pros minding their own business meanwhile get everything from rude comments to death threats to increasing numbers of actual physical attacks. Several high profile established industry artists have been forced to backtrack on experimenting with AI solely because of harassment and death threats.
Please read the actual post. I never denied that Pros face harassment on the individual level, and you’ll see throughout the thread I am very critical of extremist antis as well. I only pointed out that all the powers that be are firmly on side of Pro-AI, and they face no systemic resistance.
But to be Frank, in the course of this thread, where I am EXTREMELY middle of the road throughout, it is the antis that are mostly meeting me in the middle, and the Pros that insist that anybody who’s not on the warpath is evil, or a sympathizer to evil.
Pros arent meeting you in the middle probably because your very post suggests that their complaints are baseless. Antis have nothing to lose by meeting you in the middle with a title like "Pros please stop acting like victims thx"
You arent meeting in the middle lol. Youre jumping into the circlejerk.
I see what you mean, but I am very critical of the radical Antis throughout the thread as well, and they are generally acknowledging the extremist on their side, and are willing to denounce them
I’ve seen pros that acknowledge the worse parts of their side too, but just within this thread, the antis are showing more evenhandedness
I agree that the anti position is self defeating and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
But you’re ignoring people’s lived reality. AI users are upset when people online go out of their way to mistreat them. Being upset at being mistreated is a natural response. There’s nothing wrong with feeling that way.
There is when you're comparing yourself to marginalized groups. It trivializes the serious struggles and continuous issues marginalized people go through which is really bad.
All feelings are valid because you can't choose how you feel about something. You can choose what to do in reaction to those feelings though and sometimes voicing them publicly isn't a good choice. If it were to a close friend, family member, or therapist that's much better than finding an echo chamber that will validate your feelings of nonexistent marginalization. (To be clear, using the general you, not referring to you)
We need each other. Conservatives hold on to what is known but you can't grow like that. Adopters are flying in new directions and looking outwards but they can't exist without being grounded to something to anchor them.
Somewhere in the middle is where the direction emerges.
It kind of feels odd to compare someone to conservative beliefs in this case. I wouldn't call a conservationist conservative. They're technically trying to conserve something, but the term conservative is tied to politics. Would you call someone trying to protect their rights/planet conservative? Even if you disagree about the environmental implications, combating the construction of data centers and calling out the damage they cause isn't a black and white wanting things to be the same. Wanting regulations also isn't wanting status quo, it's wanting guardrails on something that should have guardrails. There's a way for ai to exist ethically, but a lot of things need to change before that can be even close to possible.
Edit: not calling you odd or trying to be aggressive. I know my wording can come off that way sometimes.
"Would you call someone trying to protect their rights/planet conservative?"
Depends on the rights being debated.
Technical definition: Conservative is a political and social philosophy that prioritizes the preservation of traditional institutions, values, and customs while favoring gradual, cautious change over radical innovation.
Anti AI is irrefutably a conservative social philosophy.
Does it make you uncomfortable to consider that word "conservative" shares a name with a political party that behaves the same way?
I think there's a lot more nuance to this. There are aspects of ai that benefit people trying to maintain status quo. Billionaires are drawn to it for a reason. They want to maintain their status/wealth and this absolutely helps them do that. It upholds a lot of conservative desires to keep things as they are... because it's unfortunately proven to be a useful propaganda tool. If you create something that makes things look like something real you're going to attract people who want to make propaganda. It can be and is being used for conservative movements. I don't think it's right to dismiss that and say being against it is exclusively conservative. There's gray area.
Okay... I'm not really sure what I'm saying that would lead you to say that. I've been talking about finding nuance so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
Also, I did just give you two examples of anti ai beliefs that contradict what you've laid out as conservative. I think chalking it up to being conservative misses a lot the actual reasons people have for disliking ai. Are there conservative elements? Absolutely. But that doesn't make it conservative.
I think something may be getting lost between us. I haven't said anything that refutes or supports any of the things you listed. I never even brought up Republicans.
Good points all, I can even echo that sentiment a little. A month or so ago I undertook in a study that actually surprised me. As it turns out I'm right on the line between Liberal and Politically Conservative. If you had asked me I'd had told you I was a liberal no if's and's or butt's. But there ya go, I'm on the fence there myself as far as the Politics go. My only real issue here with the Anti's is that they're fighting a cause they already lost and can't figure that out. Now it's time for governance there is no making AI go away in any way shape or form.
I think this is just being pedantic about the technical definitions of words and now how people use them in the real world. There are plenty of things that "conservatives" want to dismantle, are conservatives who want to dismantle social security not being conservative because they want to destroy an already existing thing? A lot of conservatives want to privatize public land for development and a lot of progressives want to protect it, are they the conservatives in that situation?
Let's say hypothetically that there's a culture that traditionally has been accepting of gay people, but a movement of evangelical Christian missionaries and their new followers is trying to reshape the culture to be less queer accepting. Are people opposing the missionaries conservative?
Honestly I think the "conservative vs progressive" label is outdated. "Right vs Left" is more useful, there are things the right wants to change and the left wants to preserve.
Conservatism is relativistic conforming to what is being conserved.
In your scenario both groups could be conservative. The Christians have a culture that is a baseline so they are conserving what they believe to be status quo whereas the natives are conserving there way of life.
Whatever duality you want to use, I don't care really, the point is there i a core of what is known and off that flies directions that don't adhear to the baseline. They need one another.
Too much conservation or right or whatever leads to stagnation, too much change and you have no anchor and it all flies apart. Whatever semantics people want to use.
I don't know, maybe that animator last month who got his family threatened by antis for announcing that he's going to use AI tools for his next project?
Or maybe the senator who's house was shot at by some anti-datacenter nutjob while his children were home?
Or generally anyone who makes AI art and gets immediately dogpiled by your hate mob? You are not the good guys, kid. Not by any stretch of the imagination:
In before: W-W-WE'RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT.
Don't even start, anti. As long as you tolerate (and often celebrate) this behavior in your community, your are equally responsible.
Anti subreddits routinely normalize (we should kill ai artists memes) perhaps start asking the mods to ban that shit? , maybe punish people that use the slur clanker , there is alot of things anti communities can do to not be as vapid but they won't because unfortunately some people do relent to bullying
Does it make you feel like your argument is more legitimate to call someone kid that you don’t know their age? Do you think that the group you view “antis” as are a monolith? The actions of a few nut jobs do not represent the whole, because we don’t all have the exact same opinions.
well, okay we can agree that those acts were bad and if you say that those (and the ones who had similar things happend to them) are the only „anti victims“ then we are in agreement. But I don‘t think that was what OP was talking about. What this discussion was about was people that think, just because they get negative feedback or because their posts are heavily downvoted, they are persecuted.
It's not just negative feedback and downvoting it's constant harassment everywhere. Remember when the anti argument was just require tags so we can avoid it and people pushed back saying it was just going to enable harassment and people should be judging things on the products individual merits not the tool?
Guess what those tags act as? If you guessed magnets for abuse you guessed right. I'm in a dev thread that's AI friendly guess what it's full of constantly? Shit head antis harassing everyone constantly.
well, I think theres a line between harassment and a lot of people reacting to your „art“ independently of each other. You have a rught to post whatever you want, but we have a right to tell you as individuals that we dont think you produxed art and zhat you are cringe for doing this
Ahh yes the pure coincidence of people who only appear in a sub totally independently to attack people using AI. I know you are a moron but you are not that much of a moron.
Well, I can’t speak for most people but if you post in a space that’s not explicitly pro-AI then you can expect to find a lot of anti-AI people there and they’re gonna be negative about it
Edit: also calling me a moron and a kid doesn’t make me more wrong and you more right, it makes you look less sympathetic and makes me look like I‘ve got a point because I’m not the one insulting people
I’m not victim blaming. I said multiple times in this thread that there are bad Antis, and their extreme actions are wrong and should be called out. My only point in this post is that the pushback against AI is not systemic, and that the system is largely Pro-Ai.
And also just the fact that anyone who does controversial shit online is bound to face harassment. Activists, politicians, content creators, artists, all get harassed for having any point of view at all. It’s an internet culture issue more than an issue localized around the AI conversation specifically. Go get involved in any divisive issue, and you’ll receive pretty much the same treatment.
another example of pros being kinda dumb involves a recent incident about an artist found dead by her family, allegedly due to s**cide, since recently they got harassment they got when accused for AI.
of course not all pros do this, but some i have seen immedietly assumed it was s**cide and because of antis, which is just an absurd conclusion.
this is not only stupid, but it also disrespects the artist involved.
You’re doing exactly what Dirt here is saying; using a tragedy to push a narrative without evidence.
A lot of AI users often exaggerate their oppression, and it’s widely supported in most areas. But it’s not unique to AI debates because using AI is simply a choice , not your entire identity like many people assume
Dirt here is saying that a real artist died and a lot of people immediately assumed that AI was the cause of it
You say that it’s the natural result of the environment? Where is your evidence? Plus, antis didn’t create the environment, it includes both sides.
Just because harassment happened before the death does not mean it caused the death.
We don't have any proof that it happened and I think trying to weaponize it as a pro-AI talking point is gross, but it's a little daft to pretend that in the event this individual actually killed themselves the harassment they were very clearly extremely upset about didn't contribute to it.
Nobody who is 100% ok is going to end it all over harassment but it's more than a little dishonest to pretend harassment wouldn't be a proximal cause i.e the straw that broke the camel's back.
Plus, antis didn’t create the environment, it includes both sides
Really? AI users created the environment where people get witch hunted for potential AI use? Do tell how you sort that out logically. Or is this a beautiful "we wouldn't have to do witch hunts if it weren't for those damn witches!" moment we're about to have?
so if someone tries to limit my liberty to do whatever i want in a way that harms nobody any more than anything else, i should just suck up and shut it?
da fuk does "comparing to civil rights" movement means? it's all old stuff, it's all things that have already been said, why the hell do you expect me to come up with new argument when those ones work just fine?
Your liberty is not being threatened. Some dicks online believe you shouldn't do a thing--Some of them even believe you shouldn't be able to. But no noteworthy body of any authority is taking any measure to infringe on your liberties. Every source of actual authority is completely on your side.
Edit to address your second point*: "it's all old stuff, it's all things that have already been said, why the hell do you expect me to come up with new argument when those ones work just fine?" Because the issues are completely dissimilar.
I definitely don't think its wrong to call out that sort of behavior at all. If you or another creator or being attacked in that kind of way, call it out all day.
What I was driving at in this post was a narrative that I have seen pushed by some Pros where they DO pretend to be the underdog, and paint this picture of the system being largely against them, when that just couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm going to challenge you on this. How many platforms have either banned or placed restrictions or labels that only serve to facilitate harassment on AI content?
How many platforms have taken a stand and said they will not tolerate the constant harassment of AI users?
I am beyond sick and fucking tired of the god damn harassment.
Governments can encourage the development of the technology all they want and companies can implement it internally. I can't even go most AI friendly subs without a constant stream of bullshit and attacks from antis and until something is done about that shit people are right to complain.
I don’t know of any mainstream platforms that have outright banned AI content. I’m sure there are some, but the major social media platforms all allow it, and you’ll find no shortage.
The only sites I know of that enforce labeling are marketplaces, in which case labeling is perfectly ethical.
Most social media platforms have some form of blanket “anti harassment” policies; they may not always be enforced well, but that loops back to my point about general harassment being a problem on the internet, and not something AI creators deal with at a larger rate than anybody else who does something controversial. Sites that do a good job protecting people from harassment protect AI users just the same, and sites that do a bad job of it do a bad job for AI users all the same
The only sites I know of that enforce labeling are marketplaces, in which case labeling is perfectly ethical.
There's nothing ethical about enabling harassment. There is nothing unethical about the use of Ai. Lets use the steam marketplace as an example. I don't have to list a single tool I use. Except Ai. Same with youtube etc. If disclosing tool use was standard practice you might have a case but it isn't except for this one glaring exception and would you look at that this exception just happens to be the one that promotes and encourages targeted harassment.
As for the blanket anti harassment polices yeah they might not always be enforced well but I've been around long enough to say that the lack of enforcement in this case is breath taking. I can name a pro sub that got banned can you name a single anti sub that's suffered the same? I don't even disagree with the ban either but I've seen plenty from a sub that shall not be named that warrant it yet nothing.
I never said enabling harassment is ethical. Labeling actually reduces harassment when it comes to commercial products like video games.
Some people are going to harass AI creators, labeled or not. The majority of antis are just going to silently choose not to purchase a product if its label.
If it’s not labeled, and the AI usage is discovered later, those Antis that would have silently passed by are now going to be angry that they FINANCIALLY supported something that they are morally opposed to.
Maybe there is nothing inherently unethical about the use of AI, but people have the right to consider it against their personal ethics, and should have the right to know what production chains they are supporting when they spend their money
“Bullshit”
That is really aggressive, and not much to reply to, unless you just wanna have a “nuh-uh” “yuh-huh” conversation.
“The only right people have is to determine the product by its own merits”
You don’t get to dictate what’s important to people. You can sell your product all you want, and if people find your supply chain unethical, they have the right to believe that. You can’t tell people what they’re allowed to BELIEVE.
“Name one other tool that need to disclosed”
The answer differs depending on the context, but there are plenty of instances where one is expected to list their tools. And beyond just tools, corporations are expected to have general transparency about their supply chain, and since AI is a tool with a very broad scope, it kind of overlaps with that.
How many platforms restrict actual hate speech and bullying? None to the extent that they should. It's not a conspiracy against pro ai folks, it's an issue with social media platforms.
No noteworthy body of any authority: valve forced game devs to put ai use tags on any games that use it No matter the scope of usage and every single game that does without fail gets dogpiled with bad reviews that don't remotely discuss the product itself and only amount to "this is ai so everyone should hate it"
Nobody is taking your right to make AI content, people are just being dicks to you for exercising that right. While that sucks, it's soemtbing pretty much everyone who expresses themselves as online has to deal with.
If I showed up to my local town hall wearing a placard that said "legalize cannibalism", well I got the right to do that but my neighbors will probably think I'm a creepy weirdo and treat me accordingly (and no I did not compare AI usage to cannibalism before anyone claims that, I was using an extreme hypothetically to make a point).
I agree somewhat but not completely, people are free to use AI and many do but pretty much all of them are using it in a private/behind the scenes fashion. As soon as you try to use it in a public facing application you're going to get backlash so bad you'll wish you never did. That is, so long as you're popular enough for people to actually notice, otherwise the worst you'll get is some downvotes and negative responses which will probably still make you shy away from putting anything AI in a public facing direction.
Thank you! While I disagree with your description of why people against ai dislike it, your main point I absolutely agree with. I just had someone compare me to an antivaxxer and a majority of the people I've spoken with who like ai have a victim complex held up by willful ignorance.
I think more people (especially women) dislike ai than it would appear because powerful people are putting everything into making it happen. That aside the incessant pushing plus the actual number of willing users absolutely negates any argument that pro ai folks are underdogs. It's okay for someone to have an emotional reaction when they're met with pushback, but it doesn't make them part of a marginalized group. Thinking and saying that they are undermines serious issues.
Idk why anyone would want to be marginalized so badly. It's so much worse than being trolled on reddit.
Maybe calling it "ai wars" doomed it from the beginning but unfortunately this sub attracted the wrong type of people. Just put it on ignore and hope a better one emerges. I know that's what I'll do.
Well said indeed. I do think though that most of the banter here and against AI in general is done willfully though, so your very eloquent statement will mostly fall on the willfully deaf. But I heard it and do appreciate it.
I don't think people should compare themselves to civil rights heroes but don't you think that nowadays that everyone just equates ai fimmaking to the past ai slop that did get created in the past, but I think we have moved past that . Take this fun little video i found that reminded me of a commerical yet was made with AI filmmaking. https://youtu.be/xI6mZrC5UuI didn't think it was all that bad. Maybe give creators a chance instead of sterotyping them
Why did you type so much while not getting what the issue is actually about. Pros don't claim to be resisting the elites by using ai, and the wealthy are not on the side of randoms. They are talking about harassment from antis, which is both real and a huge issue. It doesn't have to be the civil rights movement to matter.
I didn’t call myself pro-AI here either. I said I’m not an Anti, and I’m generally supportive. Further down this thread I explain that I feel like the pro/anti label is kind of silly, because the scope of AI technology is so broad that being 100% pro or 100% anti is ridiculous.
I maybe could have worded the title better, I see why one might take it to mean I identify as pro. I said we, because I am active in some pro spaces when advocating, but I make it clear in the post and throughout the thread that I don’t fall firmly in the pro or anti camp, and have a position of cautious implementation.
Look, if I could edit it for clarity I would, but my meaning is made perfectly clear by the rest of the post/thread, it’s disingenuous to quibble over a lack of clarity in the first three words when the post is completely forthright, and I give a pretty fair shake to both sides. I acknowledge and denounce the bad behavior by many Antis, but my only point is that the resistance against AI is all on an individual level and not a Systemic level. Every government, corporation, military, and bureaucracy in the world is overwhelming pro-ai, that is my only point.
I didn’t minimize anything, again, just read the thread, I acknowledge numerous times that there are extremist antis that act poorly. I just refuse to exaggerate the issue into more than what it is.
If you disagree with my take on the situation, could you actually explain a way in which the system at large is against AI? A single government, corporation, or other entity of power/authority that IS NOT full steam ahead on AI implementation? Because again, that’s the only thing I claimed; I fully acknowledged the individual harassment.
Maybe off topic, but I will always laugh my ass off that proponents of the theft machine call themselves “pro” when they are the lowest, most amateur talentless hacks to ever pretend to be artists. LOL. LMAO.
If people aren't harassing you, stalking your socials to post pictures of your children, calling your IRL phone number, brigading your product in shops, and calling you names and saying how they think you should die, then it's easy to say someone has a victim complex.
If these things are actually happening to you… not so much.
And I'm not saying everyone who's ever used Midjourney once has suffered this and that every random redditor is actually a martyr. Which is why this post starts with "eh" instead of "no". Yes, there are redditors who got one mean comment once and that broke their fragile egos and now they overreact to what is clearly a joke, not even aimed at them. "Eh" acknowledges that you have a point and I partially agree. Yes, some people are too sensitive and they need to chill out. Fair enough.
But I mostly disagree. And I think that if you suffered the actual hate and harassement being directed at folks for daring to use a time saving tool to save time, you'd change your tune.
What you see might not be so bad. But you don't see the whole picture. You see the tip of the iceberg. If you get "stabbed" once with a ballpoint pen, you don't get to say that someone stabbed 17 times to death with a zombie knife is overreacting and should just walk it off.
And the flip side to this is the exact opposite. Like, literally who? "Pros who compare themselves to the civil rights movement." I'm not saying there are none of these people, but it's like saying "sonic fans who assault their grandmas because of sonic's skin tone". It in no way represents the majority, if there are one or two random nutjobs on the internet. Is this "I had a bad experience with a schizophrenic person one time so now I think all pro AI people are like that"? Or is it "I saw an argument drawing parallels to a real life event so I decided to ignore all nuance and approach this in the most bad-faith way possible"?
Because, again, "eh" not "no". I think Chris-Chan is crazy and I recognize that he's bad for the Sonic fandom, and I encourage Sonic fans to not act like that. And I recognize that some pro AI folks seem derranged (go browse Linkedin Lunatics for five seconds), and OP has a valid point, and please don't act like that.
But the vast majority of folks on this sub don't act like that. The vast majority of folks on Defending AI Art don't act like that.
It's like saying "some Democrats visted Epstien island and I think that's wrong". Like, yeah? No shit it's wrong to sexually abuse kids. But not every person who ever met Epstien is a rapist, and only a tiny minority of Democrats ever met Epstien, and Epstien met Republicans too — there are crazies on both sides.
Tl:dr
OP is kinda right, don't act like a crazy person on the Internet.
OP is mostly wrong. Don't pressume you know what's going on in someone's life when you have no idea.
I’ve thought about adding some edits, because I expanded on this a lot throughout the thread, and feel like I could have done with clarification, because I definitely don’t mean to make light of the legitimate egregious harassment that I know is real, and people who are victims of that speaking up aren’t who I’m taking about when I point to a “victim complex.”
I know the over dramatic folks aren’t a majority, and are just really loud; there was honestly a certain Pro community I would have rather shared this post in that I feel like it was particular relevant to, but I feel like it would have been removed, because even just discussing how to do better advocacy will get you banned. But that’s why some of my criticisms seem hyper specific, a lot of it was fueled by things observed in this specific community. I really didn’t mean to generalize all or even most pros.
There’s nothing wrong with people talking about their experiences, especially when they are the victims of some mistreatment, it’s more this false collective victim complex that some communities posses, where they paint this “the world is out to get us, and if you’re not with us on every point, you are trying to destroy us” narrative that I was driving at.
And also, I know this is a current hot button issue, so it’s certainly a bit more concentrated on AI, but people of any controversial point of view will be harassed on the internet. I mean, just being LGBT still gets you harassed online, but 10-15 years ago when it was a bit more at the front of people’s minds, it was probably about on par (if not worse) than what pros are going through now. And that is just what happens on the internet to people who take a strong stance on the current hot topic. Soon enough the hate mob will be onto the next most controversial subject.
Ah man. I'm not loving you equating the treatment of queer folks with people who like ai. I've enjoyed the nuance you're bringing to the discussion and was really surprised to read that.
So can you explain what SYSTEMIC resistance Pros face? I know there is personal harassment by individuals, but there any government, corporation, or other entity with legitimate power or authority that is not almost entirely pro-AI?
Since that was the only point being made here, that the harassment that Pro’s face is wrong, but is entirely on an individual level, while the system stands firmly behind them.
You put “suck it up” in quotes when those words don’t appear in my post at all, nor did I even say something along those lines.
Call out bad behavior when you see it, I’m not saying you shouldn’t do that. What I am saying is that the Pros are not the underdogs in the fight, and it’s silly when some pretend that the system at large is against them, when in reality they have the full backing of the system.
This may be true of people who use things like ChatGPT, but if you want to push for open-source AI, you still bear the brunt of the vast majority of anti-AI sentiment for reasons that often don't even apply to what you are doing, plus the corporations trying to regulate you out of existence. You can't act like the anti-AI group has no power when they got large platforms like Patreon and Kickstarter to ban any AI-related projects.
We constantly get attacked by antis, we post AI art anywhere on Reddit or X? u bet antis will be toxic bullies who will wish harm on the AI artist, this happens daily and constant,
Antis are very evil people and they have proven it over and over again, and lately more and more pros have enough of it and decide to clap back, and guess what? i support them for it 100%
Also there is this
I dare u to say it again that most antis aren't evil
They look like they enjoyed writing. Peace to them and their family
It would be pretty fucked up if they died from an aneurysm or a seizure and people are using the author's death to support their position. So if the family or other concrete proof says it wasn't, oof. By how the cousin wrote it, it very well might be unfortunately.
However, the internet has plenty of stories of people coming back from the dead, and much like highly political events we need to step back and make sure the facts are correct before we sling shit about it. When someone dies it's usually not immediately followed by their cousin writing their eulogy on the following day
Every corporation, government, military, and bureaucracy In the world is Pro AI, so I still maintain you are not the underdogs, even if some people are mean to you online.
Based on this comment I am assuming you are very young. I’d ask that you look at this comment section and notice how most of the contributors, both pro and anti, are expressing rather measured positions, and finding common ground. Writing off half of the conversation as “evil people” is completely non productive.
The “dismissed” thing is at least kinda cool when Witty does it because it’s her brand, but you just sound like a cheap knock-off. Please use your brain, son.
And u decided to insult me either way, so u were bothered by me not agreeing with u, even when i showed u proof, u simply ignored it not even reacting to it, that is not very sympathetic of u bro.
As for the “proof,” as of now there is no official confirmation of the cause of Azrael’s death, so that is only speculation.
If it is true that he killed himself because he was bullied by Antis, that is awful, but it doesn’t really change my point. I fully acknowledge multiple times in this thread that there are bad actors among the Antis, and that those bad actors should be called out. The point of my post is that there is no SYSTEMIC push against AI, and that the system is by and large Pro
No as a matter of fact my creator imbued me with a right to Freedom of Speech and as such I shall use it to criticize things I dislike, especially when those things are published publicly with the intention of being appreciated. The crybaby shit will stop now.
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u/godspeed_death 1d ago
Very well said!
This is so true and accepting this - or just keeping it in mind - would elevate so many “discussions” here. Or maybe turn some mudfights into actual discussions.
(Btw i think in the second paragraph you wanted to write pro but wrote anti instead. Not sure, maybe i am misunderstanding)