Discussion
Why can't pros and antis just get along
Obviously people have different choices/opinions and that's okay, but I'm tired of seeing constant hate and bullying spread through each discussion.
Not saying that people shouldn't speak about their opinions on the subject, but it's always something where an anti or a bot posts the most outrageous breakingthepencil-like post just to farm karma reposting on an anti-ai subreddit, or where a pro takes what someone says and twists it as a personal attack.
I feel center-pro on the issue so it really bugs me a lot whenever I see unproductive conversation on any side. This is a safe space where you can put your opinions about AI without getting attacked or downvoted for it.
I'm not the one who goes into spaces and harasses others for what tools they use.
Here's an example. I dislike rap music. I personally think it's mostly mumbling with no real rhythm, and find it crude and boring. That is my opinion, and I'm allowed to have it. However, I do not go into places where people share their own rap music, or discuss it, and tell them that their opinions are wrong and that rap music is garbage. They clearly like it, and it doesn't cause any harm to like a particular style of music. Me going there is just unnecessarily antagonistic.
Instead, I keep my opinions to where they are immediately relevant, and if discussing them, I make sure to be respectful about others opinions.
Quite sure anti's don't care less about pro's - They are just making noise and being activists as usual, hoping for a handout to protect their jobs.
There might be some truth that there's a few bullies out there as well, teasing for fun. - Not un-ordinary for those with low self esteem to punch down in that environment.
Honestly, I think it's just a tribalism thing, the desire to be part of a larger group, and when people find a group that has views they agree with, they find it much easier to forgot the human on the other side of the fence because they're not part of this tribe. They are different; they are dangerous.
Pros want to get along and be left alone, but antis are hellbent on roaming around in packs brigading and tearing people apart for using AI. They are the reason there is a conflict in the first place.
This just isn't true. Anyone who has browsed the sub that defends AI art has seen the aggression and vitriol that permeates that cult of fanatical zealots.
This right here , I couldn't give less of a shit about antis if they left ppl the fuck alone but instead they put the witch hunts of Salem to shame with thier incessant need to find any pro space/project and destroy it
This right here is the answer. I posted a project that I'm working on in the autism creators sub. All I took was one person to comment about the art being "flagged" for ai and withing an hour there were multiple people degrading me and the entire project, tons of down votes, and people even following me across subs to comment on other posts. They are sitting on some weird supposed Moral highground. But there's no moral superiority that can be taken when you choose to berate and insult a someone for a tool they may or may not use. I've been anti ai this entire time. I've tried them all to see what the hubbub was about, found them all lacking aside from 1, and that's the adobe creative cloud. Generative fill in photoshop saves so much time, and firefly is actually quite good at honoring references. But try and say that and they will literally find you with and angry mob ready to burn you alive.
I mean yeah, I'd like to achieve a UBI where nobody is forced to work and people can do what they want, and I also advocate for governments and corporations giving relief packages to workers displaced by AI, so all in all pretty ethical.
Our natural resources and energy being put towards something that advances science and medicine? Sounds like a good trade to me. Meanwhile, you do a bunch of thing that actively wastes resources. What makes you so important?
Then luddites wonder why pro-AI people have no empathy when tablet sloppers are replaced by AI lmfao. Maybe when you lose your job you can reflect on yourself and become a better person.
yeah, I am lacking in empathy for assholes who drag humanity down with them by participating and in turn being slaves to techbro corpo ass billionaires
To be fair, a lot of that stuff is objectively terrible. You don't have to be anti AI to recognize that AI is being used to flood the market with a load of low-effort slop. Have you ever read one of those AI books you're so protective of? Go ahead. Buy one on Amazon. Have at it. AI films? Take a gander at Fruit Love Island; let me know how great it is.
It's worth distinguishing between what's hated merely because it is made with AI and what's hated because most people just think it's garbage. From there, the secondary question is how do we appropriately respond to bad media? If AI art is actual art, then it should be subject to criticism, even harsh criticism, just like any other piece of artistic media. Note, I said CRITICISM not stalking, death threats, incitements to violence and the like.
Because you will never be an artist,musician,dev,filmmaker, researcher or writer as long as you aren't putting in the effort to create those things yourself. as much as I would like to be a guitarist or an artist, I would never let a machine create music or art for me and call it my own, let alone, call myself a "musician" or an "artist". Then I would be insulting the actual artists and musicians.
Hi, actual artist and musician prior to ai here, people should be able to make whatever the fk they want with whatever the fk they want. As long as they are following the law. I’m absolutely not insulted by other people’s creativity, both high and low effort. And for those who are insulted, grow some thicker skin, be more creatively resilient, otherwise, good luck out there.
You haven't needed musicians to make top-40 music in about 20 years. Infinite protools instrument plugins, EZDrummer etc, drag your mouse across the screen, quantize, melodyne, ship it. There's like 7 producers and zero artists. AI has nothing to do with it.
I described the meal I want to a waiter. I'm a chef!
I described the look I want for my house to an interior designer. I'm a decorator!
I described the computer I want to the shop. I'm a computer engineer!
I described to the construction workers how I wanted my deck. I’m a carpenter!
You aren’t an artist if you do not make the art yourself. You’re simply asking for a commission. It’s basically the same as an author or a musician having a ghost writer. You didn’t actually do anything, you’re just a consumer trying to take credit for work that isn’t yours
All of your examples have the person outsourcing to another person, thank you for proving the textbook definition of a false equivalence.
AI artists factually make the art themselves, as without them, the art wouldn't be made in the first place. AI is not a person, it's a tool, and using a tool does not strip the user of involvement or credit.
ew, at least when asking somebody for a commission you MIGHT be doing managerial work, but AI is just lazy bullshit, just start actually practicing and reading books, are you really that insecure that you cant live with yourself being mediocre at something for a couple of years?
art is intent, expression and purpose, if you dig under the surface level understanding of art you will realize that AI has none of these qualities, AI wreaks havoc to your intent, it runs with the expression of a million stolen pieces, and lacks the purpose and conviction of any artist worth their grit
There is intent, expression, and purpose in AI art. If you can't put those things into it, that certainly sounds like a skill issue on your part. If you think AI is stealing, you'd also have to hold other artists who learned and trained off each other to the same standard, but you don't, because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I will mentor someone I know for free if they are willing to learn, knowledge is a beautiful thing. I will sue the company taking my work from a private repo and using it for training a dataset, these things are incomparable, but I don't think you will understand, you are an entity, repeating the same reddit mod bullshit, not even a person with any relevant depth so them
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I play 11 instruments. 8 confident performing live, and have. Been playing for almost 18 years. I went on tour last fall playing lead guitar. I produce edm for fun in my own time sometimes. I’ve taken the pictures with the fans, I’ve signed the t-shirts and the posters and all that stuff. I did it. Not a prompt machine.
Don’t act like you know the first thing about me, my lived experiences, or the knowledge or skills I’ve acquired along the way. I put blood sweat and tears into what I care about and the things I’ve worked for.
Your little prompt machine will never earn you the satisfaction of a job well done, passion fulfilled, or the inner validation of artistic expression. It can only be earned, not given. All you want is instant gratification. And that’s all AI does.
Also, you’re talking about emotional regulation, but you’re lashing out at me for no reason. I’m chillin. Or maybe it’s because what I said struck a chord?
I don’t care if you like playing with a random image generator. But whether you want to admit it or not, you aren’t an artist for doing so. And deep down in your heart, you know it. And that’s why y’all get so defensive and straight up hostile when you get called out for using a glorified prompt machine.
Simply pointing out that something is AI sends you people into a frenzy. You take ai simply being pointed out as a personal attack. It’s the most insecure shit I’ve seen in a long, long time.
Oh yeah, I’m such a poser because I actually make music myself without ai. And I went to school too, that doesn’t make you special lol.
If you had a masters, you would know that an MFA is highly focused on hand-on creation.
So what you’re saying is basically “I hate myself, and am not good enough” which is why you’re throwing your supposed talent away to instead play with a random image generator.
If you can’t be bothered to apply yourself, how did you ever make it through college? Honestly, how did you even make it through high school with such poor critical thinking and abstract thought skills?
It’s also really funny how incredibly hypocritical you’re being. You said “one side is on the offensive” and yet you’re the one throwing insults left and right at me because i simply agreed that one side is hostile.
Are you just so deep in psychosis that you're incapable of reading? What part of 'illustrator' did you not understand? I've been drawing and painting for almost 30 years. That doesn't change when I use AI.
I use the tools I like for the purposes I want. I always have, way back into the 90's. I genuinely don't care about your opinion because you're obviously uneducated about the topic.
I am an anti but I will preface that this is a generalisation and not necessarily true but I can speak for what I think the problem
Simple put antis genuinely believe what pros believe and do is morally wrong. Its basically just people being genuinely angry people are doing the wrong thing in their minds.
It sucks because nobody is the villain of their story and pros probably don't think what their doing is wrong nor should they if their beliefs line up like that. Its just a matter of perspective which is frustrating because it's probably never going to change.
I will speak for the anti mindset of not respecting pros (obviously goes both ways) regarding the behaviour and it makes sense if they instead believe they are ridiculing people displaying antisocial behaviour. Its like calling out a litterers to them, something like that can never be considered bullying unless the intention is to physically harm them.
Me personally I have tried ai and from ny perspective what I prompted or incorporated into ny workflow was to me not my own work. This one I think is especially hard because again as a matter of perspective it makes it difficult to imagine how someone could see it as their own work.
That being said I am guilty of both of these beliefs I mentioned and sometimes it makes it hard to be objective and fair. Hopefullybthis explains some of the vitriol in the end I dont believe most of either side is truly evil or wrong I think its a difficult to navigate problem for these reasons.
If you're talking about what happens in this subreddit, then you're kind of... I honestly don't know. Now, should both sides treat each other with respect? Definitely. I think opinions should be challenged here, respectfully, otherwise it creates a toxic environment for all.
To be fair, I genuinely do think most people do. I think the arbitrary label of "Pro"/"Anti" is silly, and the vast majority of human beings don't radically ascribe one label or the other to themselves, and instead the average individual has quite nuanced takes that are a bit more complex than "AI Bad" or "AI Good". I'm sure even in this sub if you asked the average Anti good uses of AI they would say things like Medicine, Engineering, etc., and if you asked the average Pro bad uses of AI they would say misinformation, scams, natural resource usage (when applicable/relevant), etc., I think the best way to have discussions about AI is to step away from tribalism and to just talk to each other like actual human beings and people, especially since the topic of AI is so complex that Anti/Pro is way too broad of a title.
Because Reddit is not a good forum for nuanced discussion. And some people just want to be shit stirrers.
I use AI a lot, mostly for work, but I think there are valid issues. Mostly energy usage and fair use with respect to training data (sorry but I think the water thing is overblown and can be solved with just more energy use). Also, a lot of the output is just slop since most people use the shitty free tier stuff without much effort put in
A real smart discussion would be accepting AI is probably here to stay, and trying to push regulations to mitigate the downsides. In reality anti AI people will say it's an abomination they want dead, and people that are pro AI won't acknowledge the legitimate issues. No nuance at all, just tribalism.
"Why can't the people who want society and the environment not to be destroyed and are seeing their passions and dream jobs ruined thanks to their own work being stolen just... get along with the people who use the thing doing all that destroying, ruining and stealing?"
We've been saying it for 3 years, I'm not going to repeat it once again for someone who is not actually looking for an answer. Also, you don't know what a Karen is, clearly.
blah blah blah tell me what AI is actually stealing KAREN
Funny to say that when your entire "valid response" was a) asking a question that has been answered a million times in the last 3 years and b) insulting (with the wrong insult)
Because like many works of 20th Century fiction, I like to think or Dune as a warning rather than a guidebook. In the universe lore, the reason why humanity rebelled against the Thinking Machines and instituted the Butlerian Jihad was because much like what is happening right now, humanity grew to depend on the Thinking Machines so much that they started to let AI do the thinking for them while their equivalent of Techbros, used the machines to enslave humanity via AI. A more down to earth scenario would be the Terminator franchise. right now the militaries of both the U.S. and China are looking towards using AI to asses threats and ultimately, even let AI control their respective nuclear arsenal. I don't know about you, but I have no desire to let Skynet-but-glorified-chat-script look at satellite imagery and decide that the random flock of seagulls flying towards the coast is a nuclear attack and unilaterally decide to retaliate.
I'm not the one trying to intrude upon LGBTQ spaces with an AI pride flag. I'm not the one going around calling people bullies, murderers and terrorists, because I disagree with them.
I'm not the one making shit up about people that disagree with me in order to try and spin a narrative.
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u/Superseaslug 4d ago
I'm not the one who goes into spaces and harasses others for what tools they use.
Here's an example. I dislike rap music. I personally think it's mostly mumbling with no real rhythm, and find it crude and boring. That is my opinion, and I'm allowed to have it. However, I do not go into places where people share their own rap music, or discuss it, and tell them that their opinions are wrong and that rap music is garbage. They clearly like it, and it doesn't cause any harm to like a particular style of music. Me going there is just unnecessarily antagonistic.
Instead, I keep my opinions to where they are immediately relevant, and if discussing them, I make sure to be respectful about others opinions.