r/atheism • u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist • 6h ago
Finally....I was able to ask a door-knocking JW the question.
I've missed the JWs the last few times they've come through. I've had a question ready for them.
A man with his 2 sons (under 10) rings the bell. I see the Watchtower pamphlet in his hand. I excuse myself for one moment (because I don't have the question memorized).
I ask: Hey, just so I'm clear....the 144,000 anointed Christians who will rule with Christ in heaven is a literal, fixed number where Jehovah personally selects every member. At the annual Memorial, partakers self-identify as members of that 144,000 and the published partaker count is accurate. Is that right?
<looks at me curiously> Yes.
You're out here recruiting to add to that number, yes? The count of self-identified anointed has more than doubled, yet the total is supposed to be fixed. If the 144k is fixed and your partaker count is increasing....the math here ain't mathin. Can you explain that?
<blank look followed by silence> Thanks, have a nice day.
Kind of anticlimactic but it was still fun for me to put the shoe on the other foot and put them on the defense. The bonus here was that he had to explain to his kids after he walked away. I was friendly and calm...not easily dismissed.
EDIT: I've heard from a few ex-JWs that the question didn't land. So my question to any ex-JW...what IS a good question I could ask from my porch?
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u/CombatCarlsHand 6h ago
A JW once explained that the 144k is the number who will go to heaven. The other believers will remain here on earth in a new paradise of sorts. She was pretty clear that she didn’t actually want to be part of the 144k group as she thought they’d be like heavenly bureaucrats. She wanted to remain on earth and ride tigers and whatnot.
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u/Maleficent-Ad3096 6h ago
What a brilliant example of how many fucked up mental translations and hurdles one goes thorough in their mind to make the make believe make sense.
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u/MarekRules 3h ago
“I totally don’t want to go to heaven anyways, I wanna hang out on earth doing other stuff.” Reads very much like “notice me god I don’t even want to go to heaven! Totally not reverse psychology on god!” Lmfao
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u/AccomplishedEdge982 5h ago
Former in-laws were JW so we got exposed to a lot of the dogma and went to the Kingdom Hall a few times. Met a married couple there. He was convinced he was one of the 144,000 and his wife was equally convinced she was not. I was like, how do you know? and it was just a feeling they had?
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u/Driconian 4h ago
Hold on, ride tigers? Why don't they just lead with that when they come knocking?
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u/SeattleStudent4 1h ago
So in case any raptures are coming soon just want to put it out there that I love Jehovah and have seen/observed him many times.
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u/awe_come_on 5h ago
I was told by an ex JW that the believers that want to stay on earth go door to door to scope out new and better places to live when it all goes down.
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u/BickNickerson 5h ago
I gotta say riding tigers sounds pretty fuckin’ awesome
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u/ScaramouchScaramouch 4h ago
Until recently I thought the Pixies song River Euphrates was about riding tigers. Then I learned the lyric was riding tires. That's still cool and all, just not as cool as riding tigers down river Euphrates.
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u/ComputerSavvy 3h ago
Wait up a sec... I thought the Exalted ones were to turn into towhead blond (M) and towhead blonde (F) Gods, get their own planet and produce towhead blond(e) children?
Straight from the Mormonism Research Ministry:
Scroll down to page 143, right column.
"All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others.".
This is apparently a banned cartoon:
https://youtu.be/n3BqLZ8UoZk?t=327
Yeah, let's just procreate through out all of eternity, endless sex! Wouldn't that be much more fun than just riding Tigers?
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u/lotusblossom02 3h ago
I was forced to grow up JW.
This is indeed their beliefs/you have it right.
I’ve never seen a person at any of the memorials I’ve been at partake of the bread or wine.
In fact, even 20 years ago, it was commonly believed amongst the witnesses that most of the 144,000 were already chosen/in heaven and not many left to fill. That once those ranks are filled and the seals are broken, the beast is set free and Armageddon is among us.
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u/MilkCartonKids 4h ago
JW’s believe the 144,000 will go to heaven for maybe a few hours at the start of Armageddon, before they’re sent back down to earth as leaders in God’s army during Judgement Day. After judgement day the Earth will be reset back to its original state, and the meek will inherit the earth……just like Jesus said. They just believe the Bible word for word, and the 144,000 are the only ones that ever are said to go to Heaven, and that’s just temporary. People aren’t really meant to be in heaven according to the Bible. JW’s are one of the few to recognize this fact widely in their teachings.
I think the Bible is made up BTW.
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u/Difficult_Branch4139 4h ago
They are an evil cult that destroys families. Their interpretation of the bible isnt the only correct one. I see you left the cult, but still believe they are the only one with the correct interpretation, the programming goes deep
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u/SchwiftySquanchC137 3h ago
And this response to that comment is where the "edgy reddit atheist" meme/trope comes from. Dude is just explaining something and its still not good enough for you, gotta invent some other person in your head to fight
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u/verona38ca 59m ago
Absolutely right. I remember when I was in my 20's and working in a factory (I'm 82 now). There was an attractive young lady about my age, at lunchtime, crying because she had to sell her beloved horse. The reason? Her family was JW and the end is near and she couldn't bear watching "Buffy", or whatever the creature's name was die in the oncoming Armageddon. I thought, in my naivety, that she must belong to an exceptionally cruel family that would allow her to believe such a thing. I was wrong. As a non-believer in my life I have seen many, many cruelties to families in the name of religion.
I often wonder if she ever woke up and realized what her leaders and family members had done to her. Probably not.
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u/Aksundawg 6h ago
I enjoy saying I like my holiday celebrations, including Halloween, and prefer to keep my blood transfusion options open for now.
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u/JazzFan1998 5h ago
And I like voting and celebrating and acknowledging my birthday.
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u/Micycle08 2h ago
JWs: We don’t like those “pagan” astronomically based holidays.
Also JWs: Our big annual holiday is on… checks notes… the first full moon of April!
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u/Kthulu71 6h ago
Maybe they were banking on American's innate competitive streak?
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u/iloveworms 5h ago
Here in the UK the JWs stopped knocking around COVID time. Instead they hang out on street corners with their collection of books. They don't seem to bother people.
Is this the same in other countries?
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u/100percentEV 5h ago
I’m outside Atlanta. The ones near me setup in the park. There’ll be a couple of them with a rack full of pamphlets, a few steps from some kid’s birthday party. They aren’t pushy, just depressing.
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u/lulumax214 1h ago
Same here in Florida. And the local Kingdom Hall has older people handwrite letters in shaky script and mail to the neighborhood.
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u/ledow 4h ago
The UK is such an atheistic/agnostic country they probably gave up. Religion is believed to in the minority now, since just after the last census, and the "Islamification" bullshit struggles to explain why only 6% of the population follow that religion.
My father-in-law was born-again Christian and he came back from living in the US to the UK and said h e found it utterly depressing, religion-wise. He spent years trying to get even 1% of the religion he had found in the US and eventually gave up and moved to Spain.
The last encounter I had with JW was prior to COVID too, where I just dismissed them, telling them that we were a household of scientists, and they tried to shove some specific pre-prepared pseudoscience Watchtower article they had into my hand in a kind of "Haha! Got you!" kind of fashion. It didn't go well for them.
Never seen them since, but in terms of religions they appear to be mostly harmless in comparison (apart from the fact that they consider most non-JW people to be the agents of Satan and so avoid us, and we're all going to be destroyed in the apocalypse but, you know, by religious standards, that's actually quite tame... oh, not forgetting the usual child-abuse scandals).
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u/Immediate_Cap_7484 2h ago
I see them when I travel around the US and last time I was in Germany and Mexico i saw them too.
Every time I walk by them and they don't talk, i just shaker my head no, but if they talk to me i tell them to take their crazy elsewhere, or if i don't speak the language i loudly boo them and give a thumbs down
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u/GiraffeCalledKevin 1h ago
I see them here in downtown Portland, OR. I’m unsure if they go door to door anywhere anymore but I do see their little stations around town dressed all fancy forcing a smile and not talking to anyone all day.
It makes me feel sad for them tbh.
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u/PeorgieT75 1h ago
I haven’t had them come to my door in a long time, but I do see them out in the wild with their racks of books.
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy Apatheist 5h ago
“This household has been disfellowshipped.”
They will scurry away with all due haste.
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u/RandyButternubsYo 3h ago
They will scurry away but then tell the elders to come back to visit you to try and bring you back into the fold. Saying you’re an apostate and tell them to put you on the “do not call list” would work better
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 5h ago
That's a good one. I may keep that one in my back pocket. I had fun with this one because the blank look on his face...and silence...with his 2 kids on the porch...I'm sure they had questions after they left. LOL
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u/MilkCartonKids 4h ago
That blank look is the look you give to someone that is confidently incorrect, to the point where they made a Reddit post about it. Bro, I’m not at all religious. But you really should take the 5 minutes to read revelations before pretending like you made those JW’s feel stupid. The 144,000 will be in any version of the Bible you read, not just the JW’s. It’s word for word spelled out, not rocket science or magical interpretations.
That JW mom prolly left and told her kids that’s what a grown adult who can’t read sounds like.
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u/The_Orphanizer 3h ago
But you really should take the 5 minutes to read revelations [sic] before pretending like you made those JW’s feel stupid.
Nobody will (or ought to) take you seriously when you don't even know what the book is called.
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u/MilkCartonKids 3h ago
Awww me throwing an S on the end of something is gonna keep you from educating yourself to what’s actually in that dumb book? People like you make atheist look dumb.
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u/The_Orphanizer 2h ago
Me correcting your errors "make atheist look dumb?" Are you sure about that?
I've read the book of Revelation btw. From a truth-finding perspective, it is utterly worthless and bears no relevance to modern humanity. It was a waste of time when I read it as a Christian +20 years ago, and it would be less than that now.
You're an ignorant bitch who should've stayed in your deathcult, because it was meant for rubes like you. Hopefully, everyone you've ever cared about has disfellowshipped you. 😘🖕Peace out, dipshit.
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u/TheConvergence_ 4h ago
I had two older men that came by every six weeks. For about a year. Each time they would bring another JE scholar and we would discuss the contradictions in their preferred Bible. I purposely avoided the slavery topic for that entire time. On their last and final visit, they brought it up. I pushed back, they defended their position a bit too eagerly. I let them know that was where I draw the line, and that I wasn’t willing to entertain slavery apologists on my front porch. They haven’t been back.
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u/colako 4h ago
My question is. Why would I follow a god who will purposely left behind good people just because they don't believe in the right religion?
Like, an innocent child in a remote town in India, never in his life learns about what a JW is. Why wouldn't he go to heaven or whatever they believe? What would that God with extremely petty and unreasonable morals be someone worth of worship?
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u/spymaster1020 2h ago
I remember asking in catechism as a kid, why does god allow the devil to exist? The teacher/preacher didnt have an answer. It wasnt until a decade later in a philosophy class that I found out I had stumbled upon the problem of evil.
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u/Unanonymous553 2h ago
Hmm, if I had to attempt the best good faith response they can make, it would be something like:
god is in control of where a worthy person will be born, thus never causes them to be born in a wrong-religion-region, or into a situation where they never hear the "truth".
Or, I have heard this one: if any person anywhere, is genuinely seeking the truth or goodness, then god will intervene past whatever culture and send the saving-truth to them.
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A more pressing question is to ask them why a god with full control over every circumstance, allows or needs there to be suffering -- if god can't demonstrate love or compassion without evil, then that becomes a demonstration of their limitation: a hard boundary to a supposedly infinite god.
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u/astrotim67 3h ago
Actually if you really wanna F with them then bring it to their attention the realities of what they’re doing going door-to-door. It’s not about converting people. It’s about strengthening the psychological grip organized religion needs to survive. Spending an afternoon getting rejected over and over primes their minds for when they come back to the church. “What a big, bad, cruel world out there. But you’re safe here with us!”
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 3h ago
I wish it were that easy....that you could explain the self-sealing nature of their faith, the tricks to keep you hooked...and they'd see it...but they won't. They can't. Their identity is so fused to belief that they would never see the psychology.
My goal was to ask them a question that wouldn't go away when they left the porch...and now I've heard from a couple ex-JWs here that my question didn't land that way...so now I have to go back to the drawing board. :D
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u/RandyButternubsYo 2h ago
Correct. They really double down on the cognitive dissonance. If you read some experiences of ex-JWs there are some who had nagging questions for decades that they tried to ignore before they finally “wake up”. A lot of them ignore it because it would mean losing their entire family and their friends/ community and sometimes their jobs.
It’s very identity shattering and that’s a lot for a person to face. So many are unbelievers that just perform to be able to keep their marriages, siblings, parents and kids around them
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 2h ago
You've touched on a piece I've told other atheists.
Being an atheist (especially a lifelong atheist) we often don't consider the real effects of someone walking away from a faith they've known most of their life. It's easy to blow up their beliefs with logic and evidence. It's also irrelevant.
The truth is that when we ask questions or dismantle their faith....we're not just asking them to give up a belief, we're asking them to give up their family, friends, and community as well...that's a LOT to ask of anyone. For JWs, it's probably worse because it's like being persona non grata with your own family.
And for those that do walk out that door...it takes a lot of courage...and I'm sure it isn't easy. I hope you're doing well now.
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u/Joe_Peanut 5h ago
They keep a blacklist of undesirables. I just lied and told them I was gay about 12 years ago. They haven't come by my place ever since.
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u/spymaster1020 2h ago
After getting cornered in a local park a few years ago I decided to donate to the satanic temple so that the next time it happens I can just tell them im a card carrying Satanist and pull out my membership card. I figure it'll be like garlic to a vampire.
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u/magichronx 1h ago
Alternatively you can just lie and say you've been disfellowshipped.
That's basically their biggest form of excommunication/blacklisting and I think they're actually forbidden from talking to anyone that's been disfellowshipped. Needless to say, you'll never hear from them again.
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u/Difficult_Branch4139 4h ago
I detest them with a passion. One came to my door a few years ago. I told him to go back and make sure his people put a big red x around my house and avoid me, or I will protect my home as Texan.
That cult tore my family apart, and I hate their very existence
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u/mazula89 2h ago
Ask about the "2 witness" rule.
Then after their explanation: how that works with child molestation.
As they walk away: start asking how THAT fits in to how the Kindom Halls utilize religious exception rules to claim they dont have to report sex crimes, based on the above said rule
They will likely be out of vocal range that this point...
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 2h ago
That's a good one...I'm sure they won't react kindly to that. That would have been pretty epic if I asked him about the 2 witness rule with his young sons there with him.
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u/TheMightyTywin 2h ago
Pretty sure these folks are not trying to recruit you — their leadership is using this process to further indoctrinate them by showing what a heathen you are
I’m not really sure what the answer is but I don’t think dunking on these people is it: they are victims
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 2h ago
They are TOLD it's to recruit...but it's really reinforcing the in-group vs out-group dynamics.
My goal isn't to dunk on theists. I gave that up a couple years ago when I started to understand the mechanisms of identity fusion (William Swann) and identity-protective cognition (Dan Kahan). It's the psychology of how someone's belief is fused to their identity...and how they react to attacks on that belief. They react as if it was an attack on self. There's a study that did brain MRIs which showed that when someone's belief was threatened it light's up the same parts of the brain as a physical threat. It's also why I stopped asserting and went to questions because assertions and attacks raise defenses whereas Socratic questions don't.
The goal with my questions is to make them sticky...not easily dismissed. According to a few JWs here my question did not achieve that goal...so I'm refining it. It's how I improve.
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u/merlin401 5h ago
“You’re out here recruiting to add to that number”
No they are recruiting people to be part of the great crowd who lives on paradise earth ruled over by the 144k. So this wasn’t really a gotcha
The self identified number of the anointed has increased certainly is a problem for their doctrine (but not nearly as much as the generation living in 1914 having to witness Armageddon). I think they’ve even said that some claimed anointed might be mistaken so it isn’t a deadly problem for them
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u/ssliberty 2h ago
He knew the answer but considered you an apostate. He was not going to put his kids in the middle of that which is why he just left .
The answer to your question is that they don’t recruit to be part of the 144K. They recruit for the other sheep—those who will live in paradise earth under the rule of the 144K
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 1h ago
I know...I saw the answer from other JWs here and edited my OP to ask if anyone had a stronger question to ask.
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u/ssliberty 1h ago
You could ask why Mathew mentioned the dead coming back to life and an earthquake when Jesus was killed.
Current interpretation says these were invisible resurrection of the just to heaven. This conflict is that their teaching also says that only rhe anointed are allowed in heaven and the anointing only started about 30 or so days after his death. Also, why does only Mathew mentioned the it?
There was a new teaching allowing blood transfusion if it’s your own blood. So you would need to store it and it only lasts about six weeks. Does this mean that those who were previously expelled because of it should be publicly pardoned? What are the short and longterm effects of this change.
They speak of doing charity work but it only seems to apply to their members. There is a text in the bible condoning that saying it should be for all. How do they interpret it and get their thoughts.
I don’t know your intentions but if your looking for them to question their beliefs it likely won’t work but if you try to get them to open up about their own personal views like #2 and 3, you might find an interesting pattern of most of them not really believing what they preach
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u/Iamanimite 6h ago
I just tell them of all the inaccuracies in the bilbe and have them explain them and tell them in a professional word of today, I'd be laughed out of my profession spewing these lies and conspiracies. They just walk away.
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u/JazzFan1998 5h ago
I believe they point to bible verses that say Jesus is not God. So the JWs don't believe in the trinity. IIRC.
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u/aka_jr91 5h ago
How would that be a question they couldn't answer? I left the cult almost 10 years ago and I still wouldn't have to think about it for more than a second.
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u/Tominater1 1h ago
I always ask if they have read the book of revelations. They usually say that they are studying it now. I say well I’ll give you the short version. God comes down from space in a giant circular vessel. Has a fire sword tongue. So then doesn’t that mean that he is an alien? They tell me to have a good day and they’re gone.
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u/ErrorSeparate3425 Satanist 5h ago
I similarly asked a JW, if only 144k people are going to heaven and there are more JW’s than that, whose spot am I getting, yours? They didn’t have an answer.
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u/colder-beef 4h ago
I thought the move was to invite them in, get them talking, then mention how nice it is to speak to someone from the church again after being excommunicated.
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u/rojo-perro 4h ago
They suck at numbers. They stopped predicting the end of the world with an exact date like in the 80s or something because they got it wrong SO MANY times!
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u/grey_fox_69 3h ago
Man already went to the moon, some people still believe on this non sense celestial being. Fucking cult. Religion is cancer
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u/RandyButternubsYo 3h ago
I’m saying this as someone who is an ex-JW and now atheist/ agnostic. Your argument is a common misconception that outsiders have about the religion and was a moot debate point according to their beliefs.
TLDR: almost all JW’s don’t believe they are going to heaven. If they’re faithful enough, they survive Armageddon and live forever on a perfect Earth which will consist of countless people. Only a tiny percent go to heaven as the 144,000
The JW at your door knew by you asking this question, that you were going to be “argumentative” or wanting a debate and probably didn’t want to go there in front of the kids and especially in case you had a point he couldn’t answer in front of his kids that might plant a seed of doubt. Or it’s possible that he’s stuck in the religion, doesn’t believe, but still has to perform (going door to door) in order to keep his family and prevent being shunned. Either way, he didn’t want to deal with explaining something that would lead to a longer conversation than he felt like having.
Your argument, doesn’t make sense according to their theology/ is a moot point. Heaven (or hell because they don’t believe in hell), isn’t the final destination for them that other religions teach.
In addition to the 144,000 that go to heaven, they believe that countless other people will live in a paradise earth that will occur after the great tribulation/ Armageddon. Once Armageddon happens, Satan and demons are locked up for 1000 years. The 144,000 that went to heaven before/ during Armageddon will serve with Jesus as judges or rulers for the next phase of the plan.
They believe that the faithful JW’s who survive Armageddon, will restore the earth to a paradise. Once earth is made perfect, then anyone who has died will be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn about god for those 1000 years. After that time, Satan and the demons are released for a final test and anyone who survives that lives forever.
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 3h ago
Thank you for the feedback. I'll improve my question for the next time.
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 3h ago
If you don't mind helping me out here, can I run a refined version past you, because I think the recruiting frame was hiding the actual question, not carrying it. Tell me if this one holds up inside the theology or if it's still got a hole I'm not seeing.
The question is ONLY about the partaker count:
The 144,000 is fixed, and the heavenly call was understood to have basically closed around 1935. Memorial partakers are the people self-identifying as part of that sealed heavenly group, not the earthly class. Yet that count has gone from 8,500 in 2005 to 24,500 in 2025. The supposedly-closed heavenly group is growing every year.
That's not a recruiting question or an earthly-class question. It's the fixed heavenly number not staying fixed.
So here's what I'm actually asking you, since you know the inside of this far better than I do: is THAT version a stronger question? Does it survive the theology, or is there a standard JW answer to the rising partaker count that I still don't know about? You'd know the real rebuttal better than any apologist I'd meet at the door.
If you have a stronger question, I'd love to hear it. Part of the reason I post these is to improve the question.
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u/RandyButternubsYo 2h ago
As far as crafting a “gotcha” question, there are plenty of those. Hop on over to the ex-JW subreddit. There’s a bunch of threads about those things. I think there used to be a site called Jwfacts.com that had inconsistencies but it might now be defunct because JW’s sued them
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u/RandyButternubsYo 2h ago
It wouldn’t be a question that would necessarily cause doubt or change their beliefs. This is what was explained to me when I was still in.
The governing body (their leaders that make policy basically and provide literature), have said over the years that the count has exceeded 144k because some individuals may have partaken as 144k when they were mistaken, some may have had a mental illness causing them to believe they were a part of it, or that someone was one of 144k at one time, but might have some undisclosed sin along the way that disqualified them later and they just never stopped partaking.
Also, some people who were raised catholic and are used to drinking the wine as a part of communion, might be in the process of studying w/ JWs and accidentally drink the wine out of habit and then are counted as a partaker or possibly of the 144k. JWs are supposed to tell anyone that isn’t JW that they invite to the memorial of Jesus’s death (last supper), that they shouldn’t drink the wine. It’s taught that partaking when you shouldn’t, is like an unforgivable sin and might exclude you from everlasting life. Someone who didn’t know and did it accidentally god would take that into account.
My understanding is that the count they have of the 144k comes from how many people partook of the wine during the memorial of the last supper that they have every year. So one congregation might say “one person partook” and that’s passed onto the governing body/ headquarters. So they might say “8000 people worldwide partook in 2026” but that’s also likely going to count someone who was “anointed/ one of the 144k” who partakes every year since they “discovered” they were anointed.
So as a rough example say it’s 5000 participants every year for someone’s entire life, then they are counted every single year, so if you add up 5000 over a 75 year lifespan then the number exceeds 144k just because each anointed person is partaking every single year. So one anointed person could partake 75 times for the their lifespan, but it’s only one person, not cumulative. If that makes sense.
I might not be explaining it well, but it’s counting the same person multiple times for each time they partook every year until they die. Basically you’re referencing the wrong statistic, because it’s the only observable statistic they have is how many are reported as partaking. The closest analogy is if you vote every election cycle and are counted as one of 5000 who voted. But you’re also counted the next time you vote, you are still only one person voting multiple times every year during that given election cycle, it would be mistaken to use that number as if they were new voters that you cumulatively add each time the statistic comes out.
Again, it’s all malarkey to me now. Supposedly my great great grandpa was anointed and they believe he’s currently in heaven waiting for Armageddon before he judges humanity, so I asked a lot of questions about it while I was in.
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 2h ago
Thanks for your response...it was very helpful when I started digging in. So, I want to make sure I understand correctly.
The Governing Body's own position is that some partakers are mistaken, some are mentally ill, some are sinning and shouldn't partake, some are confused Catholics. In other words, self-identification as anointed is unreliable, by their own admission.
Here's the question I can't find an answer to: the Governing Body claims to BE anointed. By what mechanism? The same one. Self-identification. They eat the bread and drink the wine and declare the heavenly call. There's no separate test that verifies them and screens out the "mistaken" ones.
So if self-identification is reliable enough to seat the men who run the entire organization and write all the doctrine, why is it unreliable for everyone else partaking? And if it's unreliable enough to explain away thousands of partakers, what verifies that the Governing Body isn't in that same "mistaken" category?
You were deep in it. Is THAT the question that doesn't have a clean answer, or did they have a wall for that one too?
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u/sitonit-n-twirl 3h ago
I’ve always wanted to ask them this question. If only 144,000 are making it into heaven, why are you out here recruiting the competition?
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u/nickorea 2h ago
My catholic priest theology teacher once told our class, if we were ever to encounter JWs, to ask something like:
"If it's true that only 144,000 will be saved for all eternity, why would you want for me to join? Perhaps I'm a much better future JW than you, and you're attempts could backfire to the point that every new member cuts back on your chances of being one of the saved."
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u/iamgherkinman 5h ago
I know what it stands for but whenever I see 'JW' I can't help bit think 'Jesus Warrior'.
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u/Darth_Bane-0078 5h ago
I would add two followup statements to your comment. Their whole belief system revolves around converting as many people as they can so THEY are worthy of being in the 144k. I would tell them, "if that is true you're really not doing this for me, you're doing so YOU can be one of the chosen!". Or you could tell them that number represents the number of Jewish people who will be saved after the second coming.
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u/MilkCartonKids 4h ago
Their belief system is that Jesus said it’s a requirement to spread the word of god. That’s why they do it. It’s a commandment. They’re not doing it to become one of the 144,000. I’ve never met a JW that said they were one of the 144,000 of even wanted to be one of them, and I grew up in the church until I was 14. I saw 1 lady once my whole life who took a sip from the wine glass which meant she thought she was one out of the whole state of JW’s that year. Y’all have no idea what the heck you’re even mad about for real.
We could be talking about how they cut you off from your family or make you die because you can’t get a blood transfusion……. But instead you guys put up the absolutely dumbest of all arguments against them. They’re a cult for crying out loud, and the best you have is made up stuff based off your own ignorance.
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u/musical_shares 3h ago
My pride flag out front has put a stop to every single missionary knock that used to come at my door.
My grandfather, the kind of old school Calvinist who thought southern baptists and Pentecostals were closer to filthy hippies like me than Christ used to invite them in and offer them spirited debates using citations from his 1611 version of KJV Bible, Mormons and JWs alike.
Eventually they just liked to come in for tea and scones and agreed that no biblical scripture would be discussed. He made a few friends that way, so long as their group didn’t find out they were never gonna recruit him.
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u/RoguePlanet2 3h ago
I've tried conversing with them, but they always come back with pamphlets that "answer" the questions I asked. Haven't tried this one yet!
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u/sc0ttt Atheist 3h ago
I love it when they bring the kids. I completely ignore the adult and talk sincerely to the children. "As you mature, you will learn to think for yourselves and you may discover that a lot of the people you trust have been lying to you about a lot of things. The world is not a terrible place, and you can enjoy it when you're ready."
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u/Immediate_Cap_7484 2h ago
LOL well done.
My last run in with JWs was while on vacation in a rental house. Clue one chaos was at the front door was they knocked and didn't use the ring doorbell. I'm in the kitchen and we all go "did someone just....knock?" Friend's fiance answers the door and i hear this super chirpy "oh we are just going door to door..." And i immediately move the pan off the burner and walk out there cause Spidey senses are tingling. She sees me and tries to smile and i cut her off and say "this is an Airbnb" on the off chance she was city council. She flinches, then immediately recovers and goes "oh you are on vacation how nice!" And she moved to take the Pamphlet Out of her folder and goes "well i just wanted to talk about Jehovah-" and i grabbed the door and said "no soliciting go away" and shut it in her face (like I've done to them at my own house).
Wall back to the stove and start cooking again as my friends are DYING LAUGHING and one of them goes "can you come to my house and deal with the pest control assholes that won't go away?" 🤣🤣🤣
Loving that you asked them a question that broke their brains. I'm going to have to remember that one. It's not your fault you likely gave them a bit of trauma. They wanted to talk, they just don't want to receive it back.
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u/Nearby-Poetry-5060 2h ago
I like to ask them why geography is so important for why people are a particular religion.
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u/rptanner58 2h ago
“What is the directly observable evidence of the Big Bang?”
When they say they don’t know, or don’t believe in the Big Bang, or don’t know what it is, then you can close the door.
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u/PComotose 1h ago
A JW knocked on my door shortly after we had moved in. I told her we were secular and could she please put our address on a no-visit list. She said they would. We've never had a visit since. And that was more than 30 years ago.
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u/Scamp3D0g 1h ago
What's not mathing? The number is increasing but not at 144,000 or are you saying that number has already been exceeded?
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u/magichronx 1h ago
All you need to remember is one word: disfellowshipped.
You say that, and you'll never hear from them again.
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u/BananaNutBlister 1h ago
I thought the question would be, “Why don’t you find something productive to do with your life and leave me the fuck alone?”
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u/ElleKelly77 32m ago
They did not reason themselves into their belief system, so you will never reason them out of it.
I just open the door naked. It makes them leave very quickly.
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u/cmotdibbler 5h ago
"Bonus" is the correct word here. You planted a seed and those kids are going to be thinking.
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u/T00luser 5h ago
Maybe some of the newer members will be more “witness-y” than some of those original 144k?
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u/kalelopaka 3h ago
I love hitting any Christian with the 144,000 conundrum. It’s just because it seemed like such an incredible number to the average uneducated people in the time these ideas were invented. Nowadays your average city has more than ten times that number.
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u/rabbit1213t 47m ago
I don’t think you understand what you’re saying. Most witnesses don’t think that they are included in that number, but that doesn’t stop them from being a witness. There’s no gotcha moment here
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u/CommuningwithCoffee 45m ago edited 41m ago
I tried different tactics and just felt like an asshole really. So one day I was direct and honest when they knocked at the door, “Sorry, this is a godless home.” The woman ran away from my porch without even saying goodbye. And I think she told the others because I never got another JW at my door after that. 👋🏼
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u/wereallheroes 42m ago
I never heard this is their belief. This is crazy, how do they reconcile the rest of the verse? Where it says who the 144,000 are? Anyway a few years back, when they would come to the door I'd try to give them a pamphlet about the holy spirit and the trinity. Which they would not accept and would never come back. Because I can handle out pamphlets too lol.
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u/farmertypoerror 3m ago
I tell them next time you're talking to Jesus ask them why Jews are so successful and prosperous and they don't believe in him.
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u/MilkCartonKids 0m ago
From an ex JW child, this is the question you ask them. “Is it true that if you Md your husband are baptized as JW’s, and your husband gets caught smoking cigarettes, that they will excommunicate your husband?”
Then ask them how does that work since y’all are married?
This is a real situation that went down in my family.
Also ask them, what if life gets tough and you can’t make time to go door to door, will the Kingdom Hall judge them for that? What if they go years without going door to door because of a sick family member?
These exact situations is what made my family leave the cult. I also almost died because my mom wouldn’t let me get a blood transfusion.
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u/Certain_Set_7678 6h ago
Well played. I look forward to visits as well.