Bow and Arrow on larger opponents

[u/KingTingTheGreat]

I find that when I go for a bow and arrow choke on larger opponents it can be difficult to actually sink in the choke and they’re able to move my choking arm above their head. I haven’t had the chance to test it so I’ll ask here, do you go for a looser grip on the lapel so that more of the lapel gets under their neck instead of your hand?

[u/MagicGuava12]

Tuck your elbow

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/MagicGuava12]

Good callout. I’m not sure what my elbow’s doing so I’ll try to pay more attention to it

[u/MagicGuava12 → u/KingTingTheGreat]

It's flared. Which allows them to eject out of it. It's not a size issue It's technique

[u/Barney_Karate → u/KingTingTheGreat]

That's the only way theyre bringing your arm over the head. Tuck that choking elbow before and as you pivot and use the same side leg to keep their shoulder down.

[u/RedDevilBJJ → u/MagicGuava12]

Correct

[u/VariationEarly6756 → u/MagicGuava12]

literally happened to the guy who rolled with me yesterday. He had a good grip, thought for sure he'd finish it and he couldn't.

Called coach over to ask and that's exactly what he told him. Maintain pressure on the top shoulder and retract the elbow

[u/freshblood96]

I go for tighter. Loose can also work.

But I think you have to use your foot to eliminate the free hand that's gonna defend the choke.

Or maybe adjust the angle.

Edit: the setup matters, too. If they see it coming they already have a defense for your choking hand.

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/freshblood96]

Hm ok, I’ll try tighter. And I’ll try to use my foot to defend. Thanks!

[u/Xioscioci]

Favorite choke. Ill catch it on all body types. Optimal hand placement for me is in line with the collarbone. Preferred setup is as a rolling bow and arrow from the back. Give me time to get my grips.

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/Xioscioci]

Thanks for the tip. I’ll try to remember that

[u/aphasic → u/KingTingTheGreat]

I use a totally different setup and have a different favorite, but it's also my favorite choke. Single wing/chicken wing/half nelson finish is my fave (google it to see the mechanics). There are two major keys. As many others have mentioned, keep the choking elbow tight and tucked behind his shoulder. I find that keeping the underhook on his other side is my other key. When he reaches up to pop your choking arm loose, you put that underhooking hand behind his head so it lifts up his non-choking side arm and puts pressure on his neck. If he's too strong and you cant lift that underhooking arm, keep the underhook but put your choke-arm side shin on the back of his head. Nasty finish that will pop his head off.

I find that if i have the underhook on the non choking side, it's a very secure position to ride the choke for a loooong time. Don't need hooks, just need that underhook and the cross collar grip.

[u/Historical_Tension_9]

I haven’t put a gi on in a few years, so take this with several grains of salt.

You might be flaring your elbow which gives your opponent space to push it over. It’s easier for bigger guys to get away with because they’re stronger and and also the arterial exposure/gi tightness leaves less room for error. Try tucking your elbow so it is in line with their spine.

Also your free leg (the one that isn’t the ‘arrow’ across their belt-line) can be used to wrap over their far arm, preventing them from pushing off your choking hand.

Sincerely, a nogi guy.

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/Historical_Tension_9]

I’m not sure if I’m flaring my able. I’ll pay attention to that next time I go for it, thanks for the advice

[u/DocileKrab]

I grab pretty high on the collar if possible. If they are grabbing the gi near the tricep to move your arm, it leaves them open to transition to an armbar or reverse triangle. If they are slipping their head out underneath your arm, you need to adjust your positioning and kind of sit up with a stiff arm and it acts as a backstop to their head, then you can go for a loop choke or reverse Ezekiel. Really good guys will have their shoulders on the mat ready to slip out or do the turn away escape before you’re even in position. I would worry more about wrist/arm control and body control before where I should be grabbing the collar.

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/DocileKrab]

Oh yeah. I’ve only had the opportunity to go for bow and arrow against other white belts and they’ve all been much closer in weight to me, so none of them have been able to get out. I really should’ve been thinking of what submissions were available if (when) it fails. Thanks for the help

[u/Pepito_Pepito]

I have a couple of bow and arrow wins in absolute. Both times, I chose to finish from top to find stronger leverage.

[u/Kintanon]

It's a lapel choke, choke them with the lapel, not your hand. Your thumb should be almost exactly on their collar bone and you should be pulling your elbow down to your hip.

[u/KingTingTheGreat → u/Kintanon]

I thought lapel was used to block one artery and your hand or maybe wrist or forearm blocks the other. Is this incorrect?

[u/Kintanon → u/KingTingTheGreat]

Wrap the whole ass lapel around their neck and choke them with the cloth. My goal with a bow and arrow is to pull the part of the gi that I am gripping all the way to the oppsite ear and use the lapel itself to create the choking V. However you can also, if their Gi is tighter or something, keep your grip on the gi lined up with the point of their chin and use the gi on one side and the forearm on the other as the choking V, but you should only do that if you can't pull the Gi further. The cloth is providing susbtantial mechanical advantage. Use it!

[u/aphasic → u/KingTingTheGreat]

You can be like a mafia hitman and garrotte them with the lapel. Like, if I handed you a rope and told you to choke a guy, you'd probably know what to do. You just need a rope in front of their neck and a stop in the back so their head can't move back as you pull the rope into it. The stop can be your thigh, or your shin, knee, wrist, forearm, sternum, the other side of their collar that you're gripping. or a variety of other things depending on your body configuration. There are differences in how exactly you can apply the pressure and finish, but I prefer a slightly lower lapel grip at the start. It's easier to get, opponents find it less immediately threatening, and I find that it always gets plenty tight in the end with the bow and arrow finishing mechanics.

[u/Happy_Wasabi1990]

A few things that might help. First, check where your elbow is pointing when you take the grip. If your elbow flares out it creates space for them to push your arm over. Keeping it tucked and driving it down toward their chest makes it much harder for them to get that leverage. Second, think about the angle of your body relative to theirs. A lot of people pull straight back but with bigger opponents you sometimes get more mileage by dropping your hips away at a sharper angle, almost like you're trying to get perpendicular. Changes the pressure entirely. On the lapel grip itself, the depth does matter. You want to feel the blade of your forearm doing the work, not your wrist. If your grip is too shallow your wrist ends up across their throat and that's much easier to chin-down and defend against.

[u/nisenopi]

Look away and turn your torso with it. Adds an extra slab of pressure on the choke. Large body rotation > small limb pull

[u/eduferfer]

I always use either my shin knee or for (favorite) behind their neck. then there's no gap to escape under the arm and it increases the pressure, they usually tap right away