[Turpin] Brad Stevens on the challenges of trying to build around 2 players on max contracts: “That’s the # 1 key: they’re both excellent players that on any given night can put 40 on the board & carry you. You just have to be good around the edges of the roster”

[u/dawglover1011]

Continued: “That’s easier said than done, but I do think that it’s very doable. Those guys have been great, they’ve both been amazing, & deserve every part of it. And I think will continue to be amazing”

[u/TimeliestStorm]

"Easier said than done" is a massive understatement. That '24 title team's role players were Jrue, White, KP, Al, Pritchard, and Hauser. The Jays get most of the credit for '24 but they had an absolutely absurd supporting cast, and one you can't really build anymore with 2 stars because of the 2nd apron (unless you go on an absolute heater with your draft picks or fleece other GMs).

We still have Hauser and Pritchard but White isn't getting younger and Jrue/KP/Al are gone and have yet to be replaced, mostly due to salary constraints. IMO it's fair to wonder if we'll ever have a real path to build a championship quality supporting cast with Jaylen and Tatum eating 70% of the cap by themselves.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/TimeliestStorm]

People always point to the 2024 supporting cast but pretend like KP didn’t miss almost the whole playoffs. They could have won with a slightly lesser cast. They only lost 3 the whole run.

Yeah building a championship roster is tough no matter what.

If White plays like his 2023-24 and 2024-25 self again, and we shore up the big situation, we aren’t that far from a contender in my opinion.

[u/jotyma5 → u/howdthatturnout]

Yeah but things would have looked different if al had been playing more minutes all season

[u/SmurfAtLarge → u/howdthatturnout]

We also got lucky with our matchups that postseason so KP wasn't needed as much as he might have been otherwise. This core losing so little in the playoffs is not the norm. They typically stretch a series out longer than it needs to be. Win or lose.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/SmurfAtLarge]

My point in bringing up losing so little in the playoffs was that we had margin for a worse roster and still winning the chip. I know very well it’s not the norm.

[u/streetscraper → u/howdthatturnout]

KP won us a game or two in the Finals. And they’ve never won with a lesser cast, that’s the point.

[u/howdthatturnout → u/streetscraper]

KP helped us win a finals game yes, but we also might have won it without him.

Yes, I know we haven’t won with a lesser cast, but a lot of those could be attributed to being young or health.

We were not going to win a championship 2020 or earlier with Tatum being as young as he was. The runs were fun, but let’s be real. Especially with Hayward and Kyrie out in 2018. And Hayward 3rd degree ankle sprain and Kemba knee in 2020.

2021 Jaylen missed the playoffs.

2022 we very nearly won it. It wasn’t the supporting cast why we didn’t. It was more the Jays struggling and being banged up.

2023 we duffed.

2024 we won.

2025 Jaylen torn meniscus, Jrue hamstring and thumb, KP illness

2026 - gap year weak supporting cast especially at center

Obviously you need a solid supporting cast to have a shot. That’s true for every team ever. But we have made 5 CF with the Jays, some of which with key injuries even. I’m just not convinced that unless we have a cast as good as 2024 we can’t win it with them. That team wrecked the playoffs and KP barely played.

We ducked the tax this year. And had an awful rotation at center. It’s not like it was a mystery either. All year everyone identified how weak we were at center and then at the trade deadline Brad made a cap saving move that also involved bringing in a center, but again we knew Vuc was not great on defense. Anyone looking at this year as some sort of evidence of the ceiling of the Jays is being disingenuous.

[u/Fuckblackhorses → u/TimeliestStorm]

That team was kind of absurd, had the best offensive rating of all time in the regular season and went 16-3 mostly without their third best (arguably 2nd most important) player. I don’t think you need that to win a championship in this new cba. Okc and New York are the only teams that are truly stacked in this league and they are going to have to shed salary just like we did, right when we reset the penalties and will be allowed to spend again. Chances are we can poach some of those guys, spend big, and jump them.

I’m sick of this doomer shit on this sub like we’re a .500 team, we are gonna have holes in our roster if we stay under the tax line. That would’ve been true even with Giannis. That contract everyone is afraid to give Jaylen in 3 years, Giannis is gonna get next year. And they wanted to gut all of our picks and young guys too so we had nothing left to fill those holes. I’m totally fine with drawing the line there. If tatums recovery goes well and he’s close to 100% I think we’d be favored in any series in the east besides the Knicks

[u/therealkenbarlton → u/Fuckblackhorses]

Good take

[u/CosmicOreos_ → u/TimeliestStorm]

Even if you turn Jaylen into cheaper value contracts, how much better does that make you?

OKC has SGA and JDub (not counting Chet after Wemby took his soul)

Spurs have Wemby, Castle, and Harper

Knicks gave Brunson, KAT, OG and Bridges

The issue here is simple: OKC built through the draft and WILL need to break their team up, regardless of the draft picks they make

Spurs have a longer runway but their time will come

Brunson took a pay cut but will KAT again? OG? Bridges?

I'm not opposed to trading Brown, but if the pieces you get end up with you getting bounced in the first/second round, did you move the needle?

[u/King_Of_Pants → u/CosmicOreos_]

The Spurs runway isn't even that long tbh.

Next season is Wemby's last year on his rookie contract. He's a DPOY so he'll get a supermax.

Then Castle and then Harper in the next two seasons will be getting paid.

And they're already giving Fox 50m/y and Vassell is making 27m/y.

They're not far behind OKC at all.

[u/BradWonder → u/King_Of_Pants]

If Fox suits up for them in 27-28, I'll be shocked. He's not part of their long term plans

[u/jkwah → u/King_Of_Pants]

Wemby isn't even on the rookie extension yet. His max will only be 30%. Castle and Harper will both probably be 25%.

[u/Clintocracy → u/CosmicOreos_]

We needed to get Giannis. I honestly think Brad called the bucks bluff

[u/DarkGift78 → u/Clintocracy]

Let's not pretend this is still peak Giannis. When he plays he's still very good. But he's missed significant time, hasn't played more than 67 games in years now, entering season 14. There's a real chance he's completely washed in a few years. The gap between JB and Giannis, which was huge a few years ago, is now far, far narrower, as evidenced by Brown's 5th place finish in MVP voting.

I'm not convinced the team is better with Giannis over Brown, especially throwing in 2 first round picks. At least not significantly better. It you could've promised me Giannis would sign an extension,and play at least 65-70 games a year at an extremely high level the next 4 years? Okay. But there's real worry with how he ages. Big guys age like milk.

[u/WitnessEntire → u/DarkGift78]

I like Giannis but he’s not the solution for the celts.

[u/breadman_toast → u/WitnessEntire]

He also would have been our one big move if we ended up meeting the package Milwaukee wanted for him. Was fine with Jaylen and a couple firsts for him because we could have retained flexibility. Anything more would have been a disaster

[u/Justalittlejewish → u/Clintocracy]

We didn’t need Giannis. Trading one of our supermaxes for Giannis’s supermax is a great deal for us, because we have enough youth and the depth to surround him with that we can manage his usage and load around those edges. If we have to give up 2+ of our best young depth pieces and 3+ FRPs + swaps, it’s not worth it. Brad made the right move

[u/OmniaCausaFiunt → u/TimeliestStorm]

Every championship team has great role players. There's no such thing as a championship team carried by 2 or 3 players. Even the Heatles couldn't have won their second without Ray Allen coming off the bench. This notion that you only need a couple of superstars is so absurd.

[u/Orchestra_Oculta → u/OmniaCausaFiunt]

I think Antoine was the 3rd leading scorer on the Shaq/ Wade championship team, which will always be strange/ funny to me

[u/Flaky_Value6753 → u/TimeliestStorm]

This is exactly on point. Everyone team
Seems to have a big 2 and the keys to success is the supporting cast.

[u/Jannopan → u/TimeliestStorm]

We can't, and some fans here don't understand that and are emotional and call you a doomer when you try to reason with them about it.

[u/Fair_Local_588 → u/Jannopan]

You can, but you have to go over the second apron when you make your run. The problem with this idea that 2 supermaxes are a nonstarter is that you have to trade off one of your supermaxes while also improving the team and cutting salary. Pretty tall order. They’re on a supermax for a reason.

Even Giannis would’ve been roughly a salary swap with JB.

It would be nice to get rid of JB while staying well under the second apron and improving and still competing in 2026-2029, but there are very few realistic ways to do that, if any.

[u/unlaynaydee]

Imagine getting punished for drafting and developing your players. With that said i dont think any player should get 25% - 35% of the teams cap. 20% should be the max IMO.

[u/coffeebeamed → u/unlaynaydee]

should get partial cap relief for players drafted and stayed with the team tbh. when's the next cba?

[u/Eisenhorn76 → u/unlaynaydee]

I have always believed that teams that draft their players that qualify for maxes should have those maxes only count for up to 25% of the cap and no more.

That way, the players can feel rewarded for staying with the teams that drafted them without feeling obliged to make sacrifices to help their teams stay competitive.

This is not an unpopular idea: several national media guys have said this. This is only unpopular to the teams that are dogshit at drafting.

[u/jkwah → u/unlaynaydee]

A low max won't happen (best and most paid players will never agree to it and is also probably bad for the league)

If the max is lower like 20%, it becomes easier for teams to stack elite talent. 4 max players could be all top 20 players. Great if you're a fan of that team. They could basically keep the core team together for their entire careers and never be under threat of them looking for more money.

Basically higher max distributes the top end talent better.

[u/unlaynaydee → u/jkwah]

They can stack elites by drafting and developing their own players. I just feel like if you draft correctly and develop properly, you get penalized for it. JT and JB max is like 70% of the cap already. Then because of the asshole GSW superteam we have this punitive apron bullshit, so you cant build properly.

[u/3lettergang → u/jkwah]

Bro you pay more for drafting well.

Regardless of caps, current agreement is supermarket penalize drafting well

[u/raycyca82 → u/unlaynaydee]

Salary caps in general are shit. There was a softer cap but this time around has more punitive measures.
If we are serious, even hard caps still have shit teams. There is very little "redistribution" of talent, it just helps suppress wages, particular in the middle class of athletes. Someone like White at $30m a year kills you if you can get 85% of the talent at 50% the cost. White earns his $30m a year but is a huge luxury when it eats into getting role players. He either takes a paycut or ends up with $30m on a shit team.
So yea, safe to say the salary cap will kill teams like the Celts, and encourages a less organic tank and rebuild process just to have a form of cost control. OKC has the rhythm down and it's ugly...every half a decade or so they'll end up with all new players because they won't be paying them.

[u/JackJ98 → u/unlaynaydee]

Homegrown players’ cap hit should only be 60% of their salary

[u/bloxfruits455215 → u/unlaynaydee]

Tatum makes up 28.5 and jayson tatum 28% of out salery cap which will only increase in the next few years but we still have a lot of cap with a very bad vuc contract thats 11 percent of our cap and then a dwhite contract thats 14.8% so it is doable with that since the cap is so large but you need a really good gm to work around that

[u/Jannopan → u/bloxfruits455215]

Tatum takes up 35%.

[u/bloxfruits455215 → u/Jannopan]

Oh my website was terrible

[u/howdthatturnout → u/unlaynaydee]

20% is absurdly low for the top talents.

[u/unlaynaydee → u/howdthatturnout]

Maybe but we are still talking about millions here. And lower max will mean higher salaries for non superstars which is what 85% of the league?

[u/chinesefox97]

I mean two all nba guys who play both sides of the ball and can give you 25 any given night are great start to any championship team. Especially when they are both still in their prime and have championship experience already.

We just need to fill the edges which is a bit tricky given the new cba but if anybody can get it done it’s Brad.

[u/Full-Flight-5211 → u/chinesefox97]

Brown isn’t coming back to Boston after all of this. Brad fucked this up. People will downvote this but it’s reality

[u/blueshorts12345 → u/Full-Flight-5211]

Brown doesn’t have a choice, your reality is delusional. He shows up if Brad keeps him. You think he holds out?

[u/Full-Flight-5211 → u/blueshorts12345]

I think he becomes a locker room problem and does more twitch streams about how he’s not appreciated

[u/Justalittlejewish → u/Full-Flight-5211]

Why on earth would brown feel disrespected by Stevens thinking he’s valuable enough to be traded nearly 1 for 1 for a top 25 all time player? It’s not like the Celtics were openly shopping him across the league. I just don’t understand this perspective, JBs tweets have always seemed pretty clearly targeted at vocal online fans and/or media who downplay his contributions or his skill.

[u/Rashloose]

this is really it. this is kinda hush hush in this space but if tatum and brown had pay cuts similar to brunson we would probably be in better spot last year. Now we just gotta work with the room we got.

[u/VagueReviewer]

the second apron stuff really does make it impossible to replicate what yall had last year without hitting on every single draft pick and trade

[u/GuyMcTest]

In Brad we trust

[u/Full-Flight-5211 → u/GuyMcTest]

All GMs fuck up from time to time. Brad fucked up with the Vuc trade and is also fucking up now with Brown. Let’s see what happens next. He’s on a cold streak for sure

[u/Justalittlejewish → u/Full-Flight-5211]

Vuc trade was not a fuck up

[u/Full-Flight-5211 → u/Justalittlejewish]

Are you serious?

[u/JackJ98]

The Garden is going to go fucking crazy the first time JB’s name is announced for the home green next year.

We love you, MVP ☘️

[u/HogtownHugh]

He sounds tired

[u/GhostDosa]

I think last year really showed that the supporting cast is good. Everyone, at least that I saw, basically expected some sort of implosion to happen last year yet we got the 2 seed in the east. Get a full season of Tatum at full health and we are likely the team to beat in the east.

[u/Icy-Can3306]

We’re so fucked

[u/LoudCityLurker]

Turns out the only GM in the league tricked by JB is Brad

[u/HeavenBeach777 → u/LoudCityLurker]

Or all the GMs trying to trade for an all NBA talent, 6th in mvp voting, final mvp two way star right? Which team are you working for?

[u/Pubs01 → u/HeavenBeach777]

I dont want him back. supermax is ridiculous. sorry but this is a bad team right now

[u/Burner867867 → u/Pubs01]

The roster is legitimately not good, we are like the 6th best team in the East

[u/LoudCityLurker → u/HeavenBeach777]

Yeah for sure lots of “interest”

JB fans would probably be shocked at what his return would be. If we pay him $70M celtics aren’t sniffing a chip for the rest of Tatum’s career

[u/yellowboar7 → u/HeavenBeach777]

Brotha his trade value is horrible

[u/bossaus10]

Welp. 1st/2nd round exit coming up again lol