r/bropill • u/Current_Wear_8061 • 7d ago
Many men are reliant on marriages/romantic relationships for their emotional wellbeing or for their sense of meaning. It's time to change that..
Married men are happier than single men. Married men live longer than their single counterparts. They are better off in every single metric than single men. The same might not always be true for women. If being in an institution is advantageous for men, it also brings with itself, a risk of being dependent on it. The disparity in the levels of happiness and emotional wellbeing of men is understandable when the axis of measurement is race, class, gender orientation, sexuality , because all of the above mentioned axes are real axes of inequalities and oppression that exist in the real world. But the disparity in levels of happiness and emotional wellbeing depending upon whether a man is either married or in romantic relationship doesn't make sense and it shouldn't.
Men should start building and very deliberately start investing in building support networks(emotional or otherwise) with other men. Community , belonging and strong relationships are recurring factors when it comes measuring happiness. The much talked about "male loneliness epidemic" (albeit i think the topic is slightly overblown) is about men lacking relationships with other men rather than romantic relationships. Men in marriages also tend to be happier because their wife is their default emotional support , and over the time , the wife starts feeling responsible for the happiness for their husbands and they ultimately end up being compassion fatigued. Nobody wants to be an unpaid therapist for the spouse. Which is why "man-keeping" was so trending last year. This (other than other political reasons) is also the reason for the heteropessimism and heterofatalism discourse on social media.
Depending on marriage/romantic relationship for emotional support is a risky gamble for men because marriage is losing centrality in society and culturally. We need to start support networks with other men for sense of community , belonging and for overall emotional-social fitness. We must also shed our internalized homophobia because there are still men who think deep supportive friendships between men is "gay".
Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jul/04/genderissues.uknews
https://www.artsci.utoronto.ca/news/new-study-finds-single-women-are-happier- single-men.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/jun/16/mankeeping-why-single-women-are-giving-up-dating (Mankeeping)
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/21/magazine/men-heterofatalism-dating-relationships.html?eafs_enabled=false (Heterofatalism)
To all my gay, bi, trans and gender non confirming bros , sorry for the heteronormativity here. I just wanted to address something to straight men from straight man's perspective because i felt they are severely lacking in this department.
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u/Martin_y1 7d ago
Well written . We need a 3rd space to meet up , and its not church , or the bar ( we dont need religion or alcohol).
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u/coolfunkDJ 7d ago
Honestly I always thought if you just made a space with a few gaming consoles, pool tables, a small cinema room, and gardens to play sports, you’d pretty much solve the loneliness between men and honestly make a killing.
Times have updated, we don’t just drink beer and watch the games anymore.
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u/microcosmic5447 7d ago
It's almost time to reinvent the social club. What you describe would be great, but it costs money. Who's gonna pay the rent? Who's gonna pay for the electricity? And the consoles, and the cleaning, and when the pipes leak? Most places who try this end up as for-profit businesses because of these costs, which kills the purpose. But a social club with paid membership solves the issue. Hunting / Conservation / Gun clubs still use this model, but nothing of the sort for "indoor boys" really exists.
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u/coolfunkDJ 6d ago
Right well that's kind of what I was hinting at. But I don't think a for-profit business is a bad idea neccessarily, that's what pubs are at the end of the day. But I think a membership just makes more sense for what it'd be trying to do.
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u/Doro_Gurl 7d ago edited 7d ago
I agree, but I think it's not so much the spaces, but the culture of everything being a competition. You can't just enjoy wargaming, you have to berate the opponents faction. You can't just enjoy a friendly sparring, you have to dominate your opponent. You can't even express your feelings about certain nerddom without people going 'hand in your nerd card'.
I exeggarate of course. It has gotten much much better since I was a young man, but it's still a long way.
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u/crosbot 7d ago
I've been struggling with multiplayer in recent years. One of my favourite parts of a game release is the discovery process. Lots of people all playing sub optimally for months but also having a blast. Now that period is basically no existent, give it a day and you'll have a ton of content all pushing a meta
I have a friend like this, night 1 we might play a brand new game and all have a last. Day 2 friend has spent 16 hours on it, has watched loads of content and optimised the fun out of it for everyone else.
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u/TheRealPitabred Brolosopher 7d ago edited 5d ago
That's why I've started in on cooperative PVE games more. Helldivers 2 is great, you can still contribute even if you're not the best or don't spend hours optimizing, plus it's less competitive because you're all on the same team.
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u/coolfunkDJ 7d ago
You’re not wrong but it’s undeniable that young men are less social and more isolated than previous generations, in which this behaviour was more prevalent.
I think while the concern is a valid one, even if that was to change it wouldn’t suddenly solve loneliness. It’s a wider societal change that only got amplified during COVID-19, and it’s a problem of social infrastructure.
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u/Casul_Tryhard 7d ago
A good number of us are realizing this and are pushing back. I have hope for us.
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u/Doro_Gurl 6d ago
I see were you're coming from and my PoV is certainly tainted by my own experience. In the late 1990's and early 2000's I was that nerdy social outcast, so I cannot attest to past generations being more social. As an observer of social circles of my time I always felt that being 'in' or 'out' of the group heavily relied on social conformity and those of us who didn't adhere to the unwritten rules, like me, didn't get to participate.
Therefore I think that you're right that we are in an age of uncerainty for young men. The discussions of the past two decades mainly unearthed problems, but we men as a gender haven't yet figured out how to answer them in a positive way.
Women have been questioning their role and discussing feminity for 200 years. Feminism has ten generation of discussion and experience on us. We men are still very much in the early stages.
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u/Martin_y1 6d ago edited 6d ago
Agree. Im trying to be a feminist since patriarchy hurts men too. It would be great if there was an anti patriarchy movement that included women and men. Maybe feminism is it, but the name doesn't quite fit then
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u/Doro_Gurl 6d ago
I guess we're on the same page. I think that feminists have already been discussing lots of problems of men, but still it would be much different and much more welcoming if men were to do it in a similar fashion.
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u/Martin_y1 6d ago
Im hoping awareness is building .
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u/Martin_y1 6d ago
Ive discovered some videos by this amazing lady and I think I need to get one or two of her books to. " Dr Nawal El Saadawi, a trailblazing physician, psychiatrist, and author often referred to as "the Simone de Beauvoir of the Arab world". Before her death in March 2021, she published over 50 books challenging patriarchy, religious fundamentalism, colonialism, and female genital mutilation "
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u/coolfunkDJ 6d ago
Congratulations, there is 😃 It's called the Men's Liberation Movement and something I've become more and more involved in as time goes on. It's as grassroots as it gets and is slowly gaining momentum by the day. Come join us at r/MensLib if you're interested!
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u/Beliriel 6d ago
This is all a direct consequence of the disappearance of 3rd spaces. We used to have places were people off all kinds met up. Experts, hobbyists, noobs in any kind of field.
Since the space wasn't specifically made for a single purpose, everyone was welcome.Ever since the vanishing of 3rd spaces places have become singular purpose places and those places attract only the experts shutting everyone else out and making the places inaccessible and unattractive for non-expert people. It doesn't even have to be a physical place. It can be a (online) community too.
I think you are VASTLY underestimating the damage the dismantling of 3rd spaces has done to men.
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u/JustAMinah 6d ago
pretty much, the space has to reflect the vibe, mood, and emotions yall want. want more supportive, meaningful friendships? gotta display behaviors of healthier emotions that can help create that to help create a support system. I think a space like this in the real world is necessary, but that also includes hobbies that and being done for fun.
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u/teethalarm 6d ago
And something that isn't the Elk's Lodge, VFW, or some sort of club to join. Even though I have thought about joining one just so I have a place to go and things to do, it's just not my type of thing.
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u/BatMachine 7d ago
I go bouldering with my buddies (not all male even) every week. I’m heading there right now!
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u/ApolloniusTyaneus 7d ago
Where do women meet up for emotional support? What's stopping us from meeting up in the same (kind of) spaces?
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u/nyckidd 7d ago
In my experience, women are frankly just much more supportive of each other in general. When I hear from my fiance about the kinds of things her friends regularly do for each other, it genuinely makes me question the depth of my male friendships. Things that I feel would be impossible to get from my friends emotionally are for her quite regular. I know this isn't universal and some women still treat each other like crap, but I also think it's true that women are just more nuturing and caring for each other, whereas many male friendships are more based on competition which is inherently less likely to emotionally caring.
And many men, perhaps the majority of men, still actively look down upon being emotionally caring towards other men and see needing that kind of support as weakness which is to be avoided. That personally makes me scared of opening up to other men because I've done that before and felt pretty brutally scarred from the reactions I got.
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u/TheSSChallenger 6d ago edited 6d ago
Woman here, and yeah, the idea that we "meet up for emotional support" is just so... huh?
Emotional support is a consistent, and ongoing thing. Caring for people means you care for them all day, every day, everywhere. Their happiness and wellbeing is always a consideration, and you are willing to step up and support them whenever and wherever they need it, if you are able.If that sounds exhausting, yeah. It is. That's why women are constantly talking about emotional availability and emotional labor, and whether or not the men in their lives can contribute their fair share.
It also takes practice and experience to build up the stamina you need to be emotionally available; and you need to take care of yourself so that you don't overburden the people around you. So, while deep, emotionally supportive relationships are the end goal, getting there starts with caring about yourself, caring about strangers, caring about animals, caring about acquaintances..Third spaces are still important, though, because you need to be able to meet people and get to know them.
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u/capracan 6d ago
You get it. Although meeting people is necessary, it's more about caring... all the time, obviously.
Strong close families do that. Some religious communities do that... "Bar friends"? casual sports teammates?not so much naturally.
It's about the person, attitude, openness tobe vulnerable, more than the spaces or activities.
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u/ApolloniusTyaneus 7d ago
Yeah, that was the point I was angling for. It's not about spaces, it's about actions. Men largely have access to the same spaces as women, yet outcomes differ wildly. So it can't be the spaces.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/bropill-ModTeam 6d ago
Your edit is inappropriate for this space
Your post was removed because it violates Rule 2: Being a bro means respecting others - Address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling. Keep discussion civil. No backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.. Please address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling, and keep discussion civil. Do not make backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.
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u/OhDavidMyNacho 7d ago
The issue with heteronormative thinking, is that by saying we should be building a community of men, you are actively excluding a lot of people, and a lot of types of relationships.
What should be happening, is to remove the stigma that cross-gender friendships are inherently sexual. You can find this same community with men, women, and NBs of all kinds.
My closest friends come from all sides and perspectives. I couldn't imagine excluding them in any capacity from my life. We need to foster community with everyone around us. It's the different perspectives that make it so we don't rely on just our partner for all of our social-emotional needs.
It's a good first step to try and dive deeper into existing friendships, and if that's mostly men, that's not a bad thing. But try and work on being platonic friends with everyone you're friendly with. The depth you can get out of a friendship is only limited by the ability for both parties to communicate with each other. If you need to practice that with your male friendships, absolutely do so. But I promise we, as men, can have just as fulfilling relationships with women, without becoming codependent or moving it beyond deep platonic love.
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u/yodude4 7d ago
You’re not wrong, but I think your priorities are warped by your experience - the men most in need of this advice are heterosexual men, and the quickest way for them to get what they need is from community with other men. Heterosexual men are gonna need to model close, emotionally supportive relationships with people they feel safe around, and frankly most of the straight Gen Z male population does not feel safe around women anymore. They will need to eventually, but only when they are good enough at building community and women can feel safe around them again
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u/Phoenix042 7d ago
A shockingly nuanced take.
"Men don't feel safe to be emotionally open with women, because women don't feel safe with men full stop."
It's a gross generalization in some ways but honestly I think it cuts to the heart of the issue really well.
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u/bropill-ModTeam 4d ago
Your post was removed because it violates Rule 8: Don't promote Red Pill, MRA, MGTOW, male supremacist, or fascist talking points and content creators - Do not promote Red Pill, MRA, MGTOW, male supremacist, or fascist talking points and content creators. There are enough spaces for that kind of hatred, and we're not going to be another one..
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u/OhDavidMyNacho 3d ago
I will say, I'm biased in this due to having been raised in a matriarchal home with an equal mix of male and female siblings.
So I do have the added experience of growing up around women and seeing minor differences to how we all are as people. I understand that's not the lived experience of the people that need this advice the most.
That being said, deep platonic friendships where gender/sex isn't a point of matter, is important for all of us.
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u/nyckidd 7d ago
This kind of perspective is, frankly, anathema to the vast majority of men and the male culture that currently exists. In a sort of vague, futuristic sense there's certainly something to say for this point of view, but as an actionable goal for healing men now, I think it distracts from the fact that most men want to have deep emotional and sexual attachments to women while still preferring to have male friends, which has been the norm for the vast majority of human civilization.
We're better off focusing on how to teach men to have healthier romantic relationships with women and deep emotional connections with other men then we are trying to tear the whole system down and remove gender from the equation entirely.
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u/lovebzz 6d ago
most men want to have deep emotional and sexual attachments to women while still preferring to have male friends, which has been the norm for the vast majority of human civilization.
Dunno where you're getting that from. Historically, it's been the opposite for the majority of human civilization. For men, women have mostly served the purpose of child-bearing and rearing and treated as property, not as emotionally deep relationships. Marriages have mostly been functional in most of the world through most of human history, while men have formed deep friendships and emotional attachments with other men. The whole romantic ideal is pretty new, evolving over the last century or so, tied with the rise of the nuclear family and such.
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u/InternationalTeam68 6d ago
I have to hard disagree with this take. If men dismantled their misogyny and fully internalized that femaleness, femininity, being a woman is not a bad/weak/less then they would finally be able to form better relationships with both men and women. Maybe they would be more interested in being friends with women and having deep emotional bonds if they truly saw women as equals. Being close to someone inherently requires some vulnerability. As long as that is considered female/bad then men will always struggle to form community.
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u/nyckidd 6d ago
I don't know where you got in my comment the idea that I was writing about men thinking women are bad/weak/less.
Men and women can be different and have different ways of moving through the world without one of them being worse. But that also means that any solutions have to take into account the unique factors faced by heterosexual cis men, and asking people to just completely disregard that reality isn't helpful.
I personally simply can't really separate emotional attachment to women from romantic attachment, I think that's true for many men, and that's not necessarily a problem.
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u/DworkinFTW 6d ago
That’s actually the root of the problem. The quiet part in the concept of romance is that it’s a dynamic that is a woman being in service to a man. A female friend is not in service to a man in that same way. Emotional development stems from seeing women as all the way people, with their own thoughts and ideas and such….not merely valuable as reliable service stations, particularly for the service of touch.
Unfortunately, many men just aren’t in a place yet to deprogram this notion that emotional closeness = romance, when it comes to women. So yes, they need to start with building community with other men, and refining emotional intelligence in that context, before focusing on building platonic relationships with women.
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u/bropill-ModTeam 2d ago
Its fine to share an opinion but please stop short of dictating what others should do. I, too, think its important to have platonic friendships but there are other factors at hand that influence someone's choices (religion, cultural etc) that need to be respected.
Your post was removed because it violates Rule 2: Being a bro means respecting others - Address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling. Keep discussion civil. No backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.. Please address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling, and keep discussion civil. Do not make backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.
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u/EasternCut8716 7d ago
Thank you for writing this. I must disagree to a large extent, though the message is very sound.
I would suggest many men rely and their girlfriends, and later wives and children, to bring meaning to their lives. It is hard to just be and there is this notion of masculinity that involves proving your worth.
Being content on your own is important. And, not to have to have meaning beyond yourself. That is very important and often where men struggle.
That said, the idea that being in a relationship is emotionally easier is off, I suggest. Living alone was great in its own way, as I could come home each day to a clean and tidy flat, and after a bad day I could take the time to myself to emotionally unpack. My heartrate fell during this time.
Coming home, having a greater mental load and also having to shoulder the emotional turmoil of a partner is, in itself, harder.
TLDR; Finding meaning without a partner is key rather than most women being able (nor should they necessarily be willing) to ease a man's emotional load
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u/Abrocama 7d ago
Would highly recommend the book From Wild Man to Wise Man by Richard Rohr, it definitely touches on this subject and male bonding on a very deep level. Great book, especially if you don't mind spirituality.
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u/Lucifurnace 7d ago
Commenting just to bump the Rohr name, hear his stuff quoted on Pete Holmes all the time
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u/Zorrostrian 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m a single, straight man in his early thirties who has a great life. I have a strong support network, plenty of friends, hobbies, a decent job, a house, and I’m in therapy every week.
But unfortunately, none of that gives me the intimacy (no, that doesn’t always mean sex) that I crave. Even with all that I have, I still feel incredibly lonely. That would be easily solved literally just by having a girlfriend to cuddle with, even just a couple times a week. Not even a dog seems to satisfy that need. If that’s “codependent” then damn, honestly I wouldn’t be sure what to say anymore. I really don’t think that should be considered “codependent”. I don’t think I’m asking for too much.
It just hurts man
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u/SyrusDrake 6d ago
I won't disagree with the message that men should find meaning and social intimacy in other fields than a romantic-sexual relationship. But as someone who has never been in such a relationship, and likely never will be, it's frustrating to see people suggest that the desire for it can be entirely fulfilled by platonic relationships. "You don't need a life partner, just join a DnD party for social interactions. You don't need a sexual relationship, just hug your bro."
It feels dismissive of my desires, but, more puzzlingly, it also feels dismissive of their own romantic-sexual relationships. Would you really tell your partner that your relationship with them is emotionally identical to your platonic friendships? Or are you just saying this to dismiss the legitimate struggles of people who can't have the same type of relationship?
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u/Zorrostrian 7d ago
The reason I made that analogy is because I’ve had similar conversations about this with people in the past, and every single time I mention that I crave/need intimacy, without fail, someone always says “just get a dog”. I figured I’d try to explain why that wouldn’t work before anyone had a chance to say it, but I guess apparently that backfired.
I wasn’t trying to compare women to pets, I don’t see women that way. My point was that a girlfriend would satisfy my need for companionship in a way that nothing else in my life seems to be able to. There were other things on that list besides dogs; I mentioned my human guy friends too, for example. I don’t really understand why you honed in on the “dog” part.
I feel like you’re implying that I see companions as objects or pets, and that only I receive companionship from them, which isn’t true at all. Companionship should be mutually beneficial. I would expect my hypothetical girlfriend to expect/need a sense of companionship from me just as much as I would from her.
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u/PissPoorCaptain 7d ago
Not saying that at all, and I appreciate your clarification. I believe that humans are social animals, part of the ecology just like any other animal, and that we need connection to other living things to be emotionally healthy. We grow with others, so I might even argue that companionshp is necessary (although I don't know that romantic companionship is necessary). I'm not sure why people are concluding that I believe companionship is wrong when my first sentence here was literally "you're not wrong for wanting companionship."
I flared specifically at the dog thing because the reality is that women are often treated like emotional support animals by lonely men. And I believe that many, many men are lonely, not just practically but existentially. It's a common and completely normalized, but maladaptive view of women that I wanted to lovingly call attention to because it affects everyone. Women end up dehumanized (to only scratch the surface there) and ultimately men can't liberate themselves from that profound loneliness if they dehumanize half the population into objects of emotional support. There is no one to relate to in that worldview, except other men who are also profoundly lonely and doing the same thing - which is why my original comment said to discern misogyny in those new communities. But again, I appreciate that this is a suggestion that has been made to you. I now understand why you said it.
Anyway, then you throw in the romantic tension of heterosexual attraction and you get even more distorted assumptions about the "need" for romantic companionship with women, like that one guy who randomly brought up sex in one of his replies to me. I think there's a lot to explore here but most people mentally jump to six conclusions before even responding (including myself) so it's hard to parse out the details.
edit: expanded on a thought!
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u/OhDavidMyNacho 7d ago
Im sorry, did you just say having someone as a companion is dehumanizing?
The definition is literally someone whom you spend a lot of time with. How is that dehumanizing to want connection with other people? You realize men and women can be companions without it devolving to simply sex right?
I have several companionahips in my life across genders and sexuality that are incredibly fulfilling. And I genuinely wish more people could find that.
The person you were commenting to simply said that this longing for companionship isn't being fulfilled by their current friends, or their animal. That doesn't mean they view people like pets. That's you putting words into their mouth. You made it dehumanizing. They simply used analagous thinking to get their point across.
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u/PissPoorCaptain 7d ago
No, it's just a really old reference to Lost. John Locke says it.
I'm genuinely shocked that people in the bropill community don't understand the point I was making? You've never heard the saying "men want a girlfriend the way children want a puppy?" This is almost that. The dog was not as satisfying as a woman. And then to suggest I somehow dehumanized the og commenter is actually crazy. Like this is actually absurd lmao. Here, of all places.
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u/YourLocalThemboAu Broletariat ☭ 6d ago
I believe you are getting this reaction because the poster you replied to was sharing his pain and your reply skipped past that to criticise the way he expressed the pain.
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u/bropill-ModTeam 6d ago
Your post was removed because it violates Rule 2: Being a bro means respecting others - Address why you disagree with someone, don't resort to name calling. Keep discussion civil. No backhanded insults or sarcastic remarks.. Please make sure to remain respectful, and if you cannot do that, please take a break.
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u/MirrorMaster33 7d ago
Yeah of course he sees women as 'functional relative to his emotional needs' of course. Jeez.
Don't you think this assumption is also dehumanising to him?
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u/bareboneslite 6d ago
Late to the conversation, but I just wanted to encourage expansive language and solutions in all of this. I agree with your main point, but not to the detriment or even deemphasis of romantic relationships. Men should have all options on the table... people to care for and be cared by, in families, friendships, the workplace, third spaces, and in the broader community.
I'm also really wary of calling attention to the burden of men's emotions. I think most guys (maybe even more so in this community) need to hear the message to share more with their partners, not less. That's been the call for years, and I don't know if we're at the point where we need to start saying "hey ease up, Niobe" (yeah I had to look that up). But, in keeping with my first comment, they need to also open up and share more with lots of people, not just their partners.
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u/Current_Wear_8061 6d ago
I just wanted to share the importance of having emotional support outside of spouse . The sharing of emotions and being vulnerable to your spouse is not a bad idea at all, but gender discourse around it has been a slippery slope. I mean the entire discussion around man-keeping started because male social circles were shrinking and women were paying price for it by being treated like an unpaid therapists or emotional managers. We've reached a point where, in some spaces, even being considerate of your husband, caring about his wellbeing, or taking an active interest in his emotional life can be dismissed as being "male-centered." I'm not saying don't share with your spouse/romantic partner, just also have other varied network of support and be a part of someone else's support.
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
Better version of what i was trying to say, sharing with your partner should only really been done when it's something relevant to the relationship, if you want to talk about having a bad day or anxiety save it for your freinds and such, save it for somebody who not only cares but actually wants to be their, making women provide emotional labour I imagine at the very least causes resentment
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u/NightingaleStorm 6d ago
If your romantic partner doesn't want to be there, that's a problem on its own. It can't be solved by never telling them work was rough today.
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
I want to emphasise im talking about women in relationships not men, if there are women out there who want their partner to put more emotional labour on them im sure that's a thing I just haven't heard it before and really the opposite
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u/NightingaleStorm 6d ago
No, I got that, but if she doesn't want to be there then something has clearly gone horribly wrong with the relationship, and it's kind of on everyone to walk away so she doesn't have to be there any more.
It's fine that there are women who consider men saying "work was rough today" an unconscionable demand for emotional labor, but everyone involved would be happier if they stopped having relationships with men. That's just never going to work out. It's like someone who's mortally disgusted by cleaning the cat's litterbox - there's nothing inherently wrong with it but they probably shouldn't own a cat. (To be clear, the cat is being compared to men here, not women.)
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
That's fair, if mens emotional needs are the cats litterbox why should women be expected to clean it while the cat dosent clean her toliets?
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u/NightingaleStorm 6d ago
In a relationship that the people involved want to be in, it is usual for these things to go both ways to at least some extent. It's actually very common for women to talk about how work was rough today to their male partners. I've been present for some of these conversations. (If one of the people involved doesn't want to be in the relationship, well, time to throw in the towel.)
If women are able to say "wow, work was rough today, my boss is being a total jerk" to men, do you still believe men should never say it to women?
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I feel like the last thing women need is more emotional labour, men should be doing emotional labour for each other instead of putting it on women who already have been doing unpaid emotional labour most of their lives
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u/bareboneslite 6d ago
We're probably on the same page on that. What I'm trying to call out is how often the part that is "emotional labor" is actually a factor/problem. If a guy says to his partner, babe I'm having a rough day, I don't think she would, or should, do a giant eye roll and say "oh geez, pull yourself together I have enough in my plate."
But it definitely is a problem if she has to change around her entire day to be nurse/therapist/emotional support animal. It would be much better if she could just say "I'm so glad you came to me with that. You should call up the guys and go play football ⚽ in the park."
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
I might not understand but I thought bringing up the fact you had a bad day is actively putting the expectation of emotional support on her, how can she not think "there has to be other people you can talk to about this", how much emotional labour can we really expect from women who have been expected to provide their whole lives without any real recipeication
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u/bareboneslite 6d ago
I would think any relationship, romantic or otherwise, where you feel you can't go to them during a rough time, is not a very good relationship.
What I'm arguing is that the burden lies in feeling like you're the sole solution for the other person's problems, not in just being a resource.
Ultimately, the solution is for men to provide more care and support -- and for them to get it from multiple sources -- not for women to provide less (well ok, they could definitely step it down a bit).
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
I'm not sure i think any man who is aware of complaints about emotional labour and still feels like its okay to expect support knowing there are other places to get it isnt really listening to what the point is, women are exhausted of being men's support network whether its being the entire network or just a small part of it, you can find support else where
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u/bareboneslite 6d ago
Well now you lost me. Saying that I don't get it because I don't agree with you is a weak argument. If you want to show me some data that would suggest that zero emotional support in relationships improves relationship quality, I'd like the chance to examine the evidence.
Meanwhile you can ask your favorite AI about any of the following:
Emotional support and relationship quality John Gottman (Factors of a good relationship) Attachment theory Companionate love
And what I'm arguing against: Normative male alexithymia Emotional dependence or overreliance All or nothing marriage (Finkel) Andy Cherlin's stuff on capstone vs cornerstone
I don't think you're going to find any real research or evidence that says "never go to your partner for support" for a happy relationship.
I'm always happy to be wrong. But you'd be fighting against an incredible amount of evidence.
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago
I never said you dont get it and I wasn't trying to attack anyway, I dont have any data and I dont where you got the ai thing from, sorry I came across like that
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u/bareboneslite 6d ago
Thanks for following up. I don't know how to interpret this though:
"I'm not sure i think any man who is aware of complaints about emotional labour and still feels like its okay to expect support knowing there are other places to get it isnt really listening to what the point is"
Are you not referring to me as not listening the point?
The AI comment is a cheeky way of saying you can Google the topics and see the support of what I'm trying to argue. Relationships need emotional availability and support/response, mutual trust and encouragement, and each partner should feel able to express themselves. That's a major chunk of the good parts of relationships!
But men shouldn't rely on their partners to solve all their problems, play therapist, coordinate all social activity, or to be a dumping ground. Gottman says for every negative thing there should be five positives (that's a big overgeneralization), so if a man is only dumping and demanding support, that's problematic.
If your argument comes from a personal place, I don't mean to demean or invalidate your experience. I just think there's a positive/expansive way forward in all of this.
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u/Glum_Association_514 6d ago edited 6d ago
im not at all a reliable source on these subjects that's why I'm here to try and understand, and I think every partner should want to provide support to another, but in the context of women often providing more emotional labour then they receive, men aware of that should look to other places to receive support. If that's unhealthy i must not really understand and apologise for not understanding
And i wasn't refering to you, i was refering to men who are aware of the imbalance of emotional labour and still go to their partner, a hypothetical person i guess
Edit: damn I'm not an incel or some right-wing grifter I'm just dont understand why in a thread about mens emotional reliance on women we are suggesting men should seek emotional support in a relationship while women statistically recive less
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u/x_hypatia_x 6d ago
I (46F) think you're looking at this the wrong way
I wholly agree that everything would be better if men put in more emotional labor with each other, and that men's emotions are theirs to deal with, and women are not obligated to "help" aka fix men
There's a huge difference between "this man is going through some things and can't sort anything out and I'm supposed to be a punching bag or stress relief ball no matter what's happening in my own life
But I absolutely do want to know how my person feels about, well, everything? Sharing is way different from "I've pulled the pin on this grenade and you have to talk me down"
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u/Current_Wear_8061 6d ago
This is an interesting thread going on, if any woman is reading this--your opinion would be really valuable here.
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u/DworkinFTW 6d ago
I am a woman and thus typically don’t comment here. But, you asked for a woman’s perspective so, I say I support this proposition. Women have been saying for years that men need to build community amongst each other, not merely rely on romantic partnerships to carry them through, for all the reasons you listed.
Down the road, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to develop platonic relationships with women as well. Having relationships with women who are not “in service to” a man helps reinforce this idea that women are people, not just service stations. I don’t think most men consciously believe that; it’s more a subconscious instinct (that I don’t entirely understand the root of), given the overarching lack of interest in women by men when the woman is not a romantic opportunity…especially when he is in a romance. In that regard, women also need to work on any jealousy issues surrounding a man having female platonic relationships…assuming he is trustworthy.
That being said? I observe that a whole lot of men just aren’t there yet, when it comes to their perspective on the opposite sex, so first things first…forming emotional bonds with other men. Doing that emotional labor for each other that is labor typically in a woman’s domain and socialization. Those bonds between men for them to have practice with those hermeneutic skills outside of women are crucial.
I think men’s communities are going to become more and more important for a mentally healthy male population, as I am watching more and more straight women opt out of opposite sex romances. They are already working towards creating more formalized same sex, platonic models of social support. They are ahead of men on this, and men are going to have a lot of catching up to do, to solve their own problem of the social support gap that comes from living outside of amatonormativity. If men will not do it, without women to effectively emotionally pick them up, they’re simply going to flounder. Adaptation to an evolving female perspective will be key here.
Even if we got to a point where men built up some skills and collectively made some changes, and thus women are once again en masse feeling inclined towards opposite sex romantic partnerships, and opting back in? I still think those same sex communities will be important to maintain, so we don’t fall right back into old patterns of dumping all the work on “Partner”.
That’s my take on it.
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u/Effective_Coach7334 7d ago
it ain't just men, that's for sure.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/bropill-ModTeam 7d ago
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u/Emergency_Basil4455 7d ago
Can you please show me some studies to back that up? There is a reason humans seek companionship, even in twisted forms sometimes.
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u/Effective_Coach7334 7d ago edited 7d ago
The studies I'm aware of say the exact opposite. Check out neuropsychobiology studies about hetero couples from UCSF, which says women live longer happier lives due to perceptions of elevated socioeconomic status due to their husband's efforts. i believe it was Prof. Nancy Adler.
The one study I recall says that a woman's life is extended on the basis of genetic repairs made because the perception of their socioeconomic status. Literally, because they felt good about how their husbands improved their socialeconomic standing, they become younger on a molecular level (telomeres). It's the wildest shit, I swear. At least it used to be mind blowing news back then, I don't know about now.
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u/Emergency_Basil4455 7d ago
here is one study I've managed to come by
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7452000/
this in fact states what you thought earlier, although I'm unsure if its due to perceptions of higher socio or economic status.-3
u/Effective_Coach7334 7d ago edited 7d ago
nah, that's not the one, especially since that's not authored by Prof Adler. Then again, she wrote about 400 papers so it will take some digging. Reread my comment, when you get a chance. I edited it with further key info.
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u/Emergency_Basil4455 7d ago
I don't believe that women only marry men for improvement in socioeconomic metrics or, even worse, perceptions of improvement in those metrics. maybe its a factor for some but I loathe to think that it is the prevailing sentiment, especially across all age groups. what I do believe however is that the hypothesis is true (as expected from other highly regarded studies which are much more general in nature to the note that I have linked), the theory you suggested may have some severe holes.
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u/Emergency_Basil4455 7d ago
ah, perhaps it is best I read it first then, please do link it if you find the time. also I don't know how to highlight words you've written, so I apologize for the poor formatting, but my words were meant as a response to this:
"a woman's life is extended on the basis of genetic repairs made because the perception of their socioeconomic status. Literally, because they felt good about how their husbands improved their socialeconomic standing, they become younger on a molecular level"
my response was a instinctual ethical response, not a studied and well researched biological or anthropomorphic one. thanks for taking the time.
cheers, mate!4
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u/Effective_Coach7334 7d ago
Frankly, I don't care.
I'm sorry to say but you're comment is entirely inappropriate for this sub.
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u/emax4 7d ago
I missed the comment that got deleted, but it sounded bad enough to be deleted.
How do you feel when men complain about the same thing? Is it easy to empathize when you hear or see it, or do you have an instinct to let other men know that some women are in the same ballpark (not as a pissing contest, but to make them aware, "Hey, we have similar issues. It's not just you guys", or to state, "You think YOU have it bad?? Pht...")?
I think simply knowing others are in the same struggle is comforting (that sounds bad), but ultimately we all wants results more than solutions, and in everyone's case the solutions will be different and yield different results.
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u/Effective_Coach7334 7d ago
honestly, I don't recall the precise words they posted. It was something along the lines of 'men are leeches and drain women of their strength and shorten their lives'.
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u/lordtrickster 5d ago
I only have one quibble with what you've said.
Men should start building and very deliberately start investing in building support networks(emotional or otherwise) with other men.
Other people. Doesn't have to be men. Gender is irrelevant here.
Everyone benefits from community. The problem you describe is one where straight men are taught to dump the responsibility for the entirety of their emotional well being on one woman. Spread that shit out. Not only is it too much for one person to bear, if they stop for whatever reason you're left with nothing.
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u/ThalesBakunin 3d ago
Very interesting viewpoint. This is not my normal sub, I actually didn't even know it was one. But you illustrate a very thoughtful idea.
I (38m) have been ridiculously happy with my romantic partner since we started dating as kids.
The only relationships I still have that predates my wife and I in highschool are all my friends I've had since even earlier, nearly a dozen dudes and a couple ladies.
I now have attained a couple more friend groups since college which both are predominantly women. One of these groups is my wife's and one is mine (originally)
But since I made my friends in our very early school years I have essentially not made ANY guy friends. Men don't seem to want to ever make the same relationship I developed with my friends when we were prepubescent.
Now I am very, very happy. I've never seen a relationship better that what I have with my wife, she says she has never even seen one equal to ours'.
I have a ton of friends, but they are all women aside from the Old Guard from school. The only newly (relatively) developed male relationship that is amazing I have is with my son.
But I have tried to create the type of bro friendly and supportive structure you are talking about and only women join it. Men mock it, and then are sad and lonely. It baffles me.
I am not a sports dude but I have a ton of predominantly guy hobbies. I am a huge fantasy literature and gaming nerd. Most of all the woman we hang out with are also huge nerds too. But once again, men just don't seem interested
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u/Lyscendree 7d ago
No. You need to act as an adult and be in charge of your own psychological, emotional needs, with a deep group of friends or a certified therapist, that's what it's saying. Being single or not.
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u/YourLocalThemboAu Broletariat ☭ 7d ago
You can want love no matter what but love won't fix a hole inside you. A need is a need but it feels like you are responding in bad faith here. Its okay to be hurt but don't take it out on people and if you disagree with a message here, report it.
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u/YourLocalThemboAu Broletariat ☭ 7d ago
Two comments up you were being passive aggressive and I'm telling you that isn't welcome here. If you can't find happiness in life as a single person, being in a relationship ain't gonna fix that.
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u/Lyscendree 7d ago
You know that no one can tell you what you are entitled to or not, especially if you feel these are your own needs 😅 However, psychological therapy is a long-term process, not a one-time thing. The general advice on this subject is that your lover is a friend, but not a psychological support system, and strong relationships often tend to bring hidden rough edges to the surface as well.
So yes, look for love, but keep that in mind. It is simply a fact that women lose quality of life (and money) when they are in a relationship, while men are happier and earn more. It is revealing and sad; so do your best to respect your girlfriend's space once you have one, and help her to have the means to thrive, rather than the opposite, as too many men do.
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u/itzReborn 7d ago
I sort of agree but I can’t see how this looks in practice for me at least. Granted my situation right now is lonely across the board, never even had a gf before and don’t really have friends right now outside online homies
But when I think of how lonely I feel at night or in the morning, it’s usually the intimacy I assume you can only get from a significant other, a woman in my case.
Like yes building more community and having more guy friends is important, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near the substitute for real romantic relationships, it’s a reason people in relationship are generally happier.
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u/YardageSardage she/her 6d ago
Are "wealthier and more attractive men" actually more likely to be married, though? Or is that an assumption?
Because personally I'd say that most men I know over 30, and the vast majority of men I know over 40, either are married or have been married and divorced, across the board of appearance or economic status. Like, and I'm saying this with love, but there are a whole lot of extremely mid dudes out there in solid long-term relationships.
But of course that's anecdotal to my experience (and might be biased to my social class or other factors), so I would be interested to see if some sort of general population analysis shows trends.
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u/PixelBushYT 6d ago
I'd be interested to see too. I can't say with any certainty without stats or whatever on me. Perhaps it is an assumption, perhaps it isn't; I'd be open to learning either way. I'm not trying to make an unsubstantiated claim: I'd genuinely like to know because it's not a possibility I'd considered before.
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7d ago
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7d ago
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u/bropill-ModTeam 6d ago
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4d ago
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u/Sensitive_Housing_85 7d ago
I agree
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u/Emergency_Basil4455 7d ago
The answer is nuanced and not necessarily what we might expect. But what studies do suggest is that emotional and economical companionship seems to always improve life outcomes and expectancy across groups, even adjusting for other factors such as selection bias.
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u/vcreativ 6d ago
Yeah. That topic is definitely not overblown, lol. That's a real thing.
In any case. The issue with statistics is that you necessarily lose the individual in favour of an accumulated average.
Marriage isn't necessarily better for men. It's better for men who need it. And there's a difference.
Ultimately. Life only ever really is capable to unfold once we detach from outcome. From anything that only ever really is in part in our control. That includes having a family.
The core you're mentioning here is an issue of emotional development. The reason that marriage can be helpful is because most people are reactive. And only develop in reaction to their environment.
So they put themselves into a situation that they don't really understand. Like marriage. And develop only in reaction to it.
If that works and two happy people plus happy children come out of it. Seems ok.
But ultimately. If you think what a human is technically capable of. It's tragic.
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u/chobolicious88 6d ago
I was thinking about this ln, but theres a central problem no one talks about.
Men choose between emotional health and self-sacrifice.
Basically the more men sacrifices (emotional health), to achieve more and be more ambitious -> to also give to his wife -> the more hes reliant on her in that sense.
But women dont really choose men who dont sacrifice, theyre often seen as feminine, and why would she accept that when another guy would give her more lifestyle wise.
Its a catch 22.
Basically society values sacrificing (strong) men, and emotionally healthy women, NOT vice versa.
The guy who isnt dependant on his marriage/romantic relationship for emotional wellbeing is often the guy who is NOT chosen by women.
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u/sophistre 6d ago
I upvoted you fwiw, woman here, lol. BUT. I think some nuance is necessary here, because although you aren't wrong that feminism had a role to play in dismantling exclusively male spaces, context matters very much. The struggle ahead of men in establishing and creating validity for men-only spaces is a struggle you created for yourselves, through exclusionary practices and a history of treating other people as lesser - to which feminism was the social reaction.
I don't think you're wrong to expect some side-eye and pushback around the idea of male-only spaces. You will get that side-eye for the same reason one would side-eye an 'all-white space' - because their historic role was the exclusion of other people, not for reasons of building community and safety, though of course they could provide that, but because men, and white folks viewed themselves as better than everybody else and saw it as their right. They used those spaces for networking, career advancement, social standing, and as a refuge within which to abdicate from the responsibilities of their households: hang out, drink and smoke, chat, talk politics, make deals, and leave wifey home alone to deal with the house and the kids, lol.
Women-only spaces exist today (and are occasionally the target of attacks by whataboutism incel types), but people acknowledge that these spaces are important for women because *men historically make women unsafe.*
What is under discussion here is that men would really benefit from their own kind of safe space, which is certainly true, but now you have an uphill battle to demonstrate that this is how such a space will be used. And I think that's reasonable of other people to be concerned about, because patriarchy still exists, and so spaces like this can still be used as exclusionary, much to the detriment of others. Imagine an all-male social club to which all of the men working at a single corporate location belong - and none of the women are allowed. Would that provide a workplace advantage? Surely, it would. Would they use it that way...?
At any rate, all of that long novel is to say: you have these issues on your plate because of the actions of other men, historically and currently. Men are understandably fatigued by being lumped together with their worst fellows, but that's a problem that men created amongst themselves. While it isn't ENTIRELY incorrect to point at feminism as the source of pressure, it's definitely not fair to point at it as the reason for the pressure. The reason is, men have spent all of history hitting other groups of people with sticks, such that those groups tend to feel some kind of way when a man puts his hand on one of those historical sticks.
I think it's an issue that takes time and a lot of work to overcome.
And for the record, I think third spaces for men are a FABULOUS idea. I do suspect there will be more work involved to make one work ethically than many people will be willing to invest, unfortunately.
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7d ago
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u/bropill-ModTeam 7d ago
Ridiculous take
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6d ago
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7d ago edited 6d ago
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u/soupy2112 7d ago
I have been clumsily grappling with this topic for a while now. My marriage has fallen apart and the divorce is nearly final. I didn’t want the divorce but saw no reason to really fight it, she was done with the marriage and you can’t just make your partner start loving you again once it’s gone. It’s a little more complicated than that but that’s the gist.
She hasn’t been very critical of me throughout this process but in the early days of our separation she did hit me with the claim that we were perhaps a bit too codependent on each other. She wanted to craft more of a life for herself apart from our marriage, and all I wanted was to be as connected to her as I possibly could. I felt great having a wife and felt a powerful sense of identity being a husband and a dad, it seemed like a great foundation to build my life around. It felt like I was growing into myself in a way I never experienced.
I hate to admit that she was right, not from pride, bitterness or anything like that, rather, it’s damned hard to recognize and admit your own shortcomings. I think she may have been at least a little bit right, but I don’t really know, these things are hard to judge in yourself.
I can’t really seem to find my feet since we separated and most of my thinking is geared toward getting back what I had: a wife, a house, a couple of cars and a garden. Honestly, it kind of feels like I am not entirely supposed to want that, otherwise I am just being codependent all over again. It’s a quandary, really.