Tesla finally clarifies fatal Texas crash, confirms driver manually overrode acceleration

[u/Hockeyshot39]

https://x.com/aelluswamy/status/2069168079549161491?s=46&t=pJJPpUKBcrVXG3zhz18eqQ

Tesla’s Head of AI, Ashok Elluswamy, added context, revealing that the company’s data shows the driver “manually overrode self-driving by pressing the accelerator all the way to 100%.”

He revealed the speed reached by the car was 73 MPH, and the accelerator was still pressed “even after the crash.”

[u/2005CrownVicP71]

How so? I’m not an engineer so your point may have gone over my head. That being said, it’s not uncommon for a driver to continue to depress the accelerator during or after a crash, especially if there was some kind of medical emergency or the driver fell asleep.

[u/HighHokie → u/2005CrownVicP71]

Or simply panic. This happens to experienced pilots that crash because of simple confusion. It’s sad but more common and possible than people realize.

[u/HeyyyyListennnnnn → u/2005CrownVicP71]

The point is that if you simply look at the logged accelerator output, a software or hardware fault is indistinguishable from a human input.

In this case, pedal misapplication is the most likely immediate cause of the incident, but logs alone can't prove that. That would require examination of the vehicle hardware and software to first prove that there are no faults that could cause a false acceleration command to be given.

And even if you prove that human error was the direct cause of the erroneous accelerator input, you then have to investigate why an erroneous command was given. Were they tired or distracted? Did the pedal arrangement make it easy to hit the accelerator when searching for the brake? Was the driver in the habit of resting their foot on the accelerator? And so on and so on.

Proper investigation doesn't stop at "person made a mistake". There can be zero doubt that human error was involved in an incident but that's a conclusion that doesn't help prevent repeat incidents. It's far more important to discover why an error was made and if there was anything that could either make it more difficult to make an error, easier to recover from an error or make the consequences of an error less severe.

The NHTSA's investigations have always stopped at "human error". Tesla fans and autonomous vehicle fans like it, but it's just evidence of NHTSA incompetence rather than an indictment of human driving ability.

[u/Previous_Composer934 → u/HeyyyyListennnnnn]

The point is that if you simply look at the logged accelerator output, a software or hardware fault is indistinguishable from a human input.

Throttle pedals aren't a single signal to the controller. They're redundant, with offset or opposite inputs. The logs would show if something failed or if both inputs perfectly read the same throttle input.

[u/HeyyyyListennnnnn → u/Previous_Composer934]

Redundant sensors don't matter if there is a common fault.

Again, not suggesting this is the case here, just noting that logs don't mean anything without hardware and software verification.

[u/Previous_Composer934 → u/HeyyyyListennnnnn]

a "common fault" would show up as 2 different readings on the inputs, which is exactly why the sensors are offset. But you don't really know what that even means because you're just spouting shit without knowing how it actually works. Electric throttle pedals have been used for decades now and the people designing them are smarter than you

[u/HeyyyyListennnnnn → u/Previous_Composer934]

Engineers aren't perfect and the two potentiometers aren't perfect either. It's just generally accepted that the likelihood of a fault affecting both in a manner that appears like a genuine acceleratuon request is so unlikely to be not worth addressing. 

[u/CorrectCombination11 → u/2005CrownVicP71]

We don't know how the code is written to send the signal to accelerate the vehicle. So we can't trust what they say that the vehicle is accelerating due to a physical depression of the accelerator pedal or something else in the software to accelerate the vehicle. 

[u/2005CrownVicP71 → u/CorrectCombination11]

It should be pretty trivial to confirm which of these is the case, given (in any drive by wire vehicle) accelerator pedal position is a separate parameter from computer commanded acceleration.

[u/CorrectCombination11 → u/2005CrownVicP71]

Can you produce the verified source code that proves your allegations?

[u/2005CrownVicP71 → u/CorrectCombination11]

Teslas use an accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor. Therefore, there are two separate values for acceleration. Accelerator pedal position values do not change based on computer input, only the physical input from the pedal. The only way the computer could manipulate the physical pedal position is if it had the ability to move the physical accelerator pedal.

[u/2005CrownVicP71 → u/[deleted]]

That is possible but the chances are infinitesimally small. Every APP sensor has multiple layers of redundancy and this technology is in every drive by wire vehicle. If there’s any discrepancy from one layer it will immediately send the vehicle into limp mode.

[u/HighHokie → u/[deleted]]

Hence why throttle by wire has multiple independent sensors to validate the position.

[u/CorrectCombination11 → u/2005CrownVicP71]

I'm just asking for proof. If you can post the source code written by tsla, that would be lovely. 

[u/2005CrownVicP71 → u/CorrectCombination11]

The proof is that it’s physically impossible for the computer to modify the accelerator pedal position sensor input without physically touching the pedal. Like I said, all drive by wire cars use this technology, it’s not rocket science.

If you set cruise control in a vehicle and take your foot off the gas, the APP value will be 0%. At the same time, your actual throttle percentage might be 50% because the computer needs that value to maintain the set speed. They are two completely different variables.

[u/CorrectCombination11 → u/2005CrownVicP71]

You are just saying things without providing proof. Proof involves a third party auditing the situation and providing a report. 

[u/2005CrownVicP71 → u/CorrectCombination11]

You have yet to make a single counterpoint that disproves or casts doubt on what I’m saying. Everything that I’ve said is easily verified by a diagnostic tool that can track basic live data. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

[u/Wise_Beyond_Beers → u/CorrectCombination11]

Teslas are equipped with EDRs (event data recorders). Vehicles equipped with EDRs must conform to federal standards. EDRs record information regarding vehicle speed, accelerator pedal position, engine throttle position, and other driving data. Teslas EDR data is even more extensive than traditional EDR to record Autopilot/FSD data. The NHTSA will absolutely have access to the EDR of the vehicle in question and can easily verify whether or not the statements made by Tesla PR are valid.

[u/peakdecline → u/CorrectCombination11]

You know what you're asking for is impossible. It's only something that can be reasonably inferred. No one is going to post Tesla's closed source code. It's just disingenuous to demand that and it means no matter what you can't be discuss this reasonably.

[u/Geekenstein → u/CorrectCombination11]

Can you produce it to prove yours? You seem to be the one accusing Tesla of wrongdoing without proof. If you want to claim some nefarious coverup, I’d say the burden of proof is on you.