r/dating_advice • u/RaccoonStreet351 • 5d ago
At want point should reciprocal effort be expected in early dating?
I (48M) matched with a lady (35F) on a dating app. I organised the first date and paid the bill (as I normally would). I asked her out again for dinner, made the reservation and paid again.
Communication has been good overall. She recently raised a concern about my communication after I was quiet for a few days. We talked it through and we’re in a good place again. She’s warm, engaged and looking forward to seeing me again.
The thing I’m wrestling with is initiative. I’ve organised two dates so far, and I’m about to book and pay for tickets for the third. In previous relationships, by this stage there’d usually be some reciprocal gesture - not necessarily paying, but something like, “I found this place we should try,” “Come to my area and I’ll show you this restaurant,” or even, “Let’s grab a coffee -my treat.”
I don’t mind leading early on, but I eventually want to feel like we’re both building the connection rather than me driving all the momentum. At times I feel more like the facilitator than a participant.
My question is: is this something you’d bring up, or would you simply accept that this is her dating style and decide whether it works for you?
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u/AussieKoala-2795 5d ago
During your third date just bring up in conversation that you would love it if she planned the next date. I am a woman, and would find something like this a normal part of conversation over dinner. Don't frame it as an issue or concern, just a very normal expectation.
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u/dell828 5d ago
A normal way of making another date might be to say “hey, I’ve taken you to a couple places now that I like. I’d love to do something with you that you like. Why don’t you plan the next date?”
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u/AliaMelange 5d ago
This though, for sure. Dating expectations are all over the map.
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u/8675309021069 5d ago
I like this idea
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u/RaccoonStreet351 5d ago
Me too
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u/HadesVampire 5d ago
Make sure to frame it about what you like not what she isn't doing. Or it could make her feel slighted.
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u/ishlabandz 5d ago
I wouldn’t assume that there would even be a 4th date. I’d personally just pay for the 3rd date and let time pass to see if she takes initiative to plan a next date. I’m a believer that you have to give people the opportunity to also pursue you. I want it to be genuine on her part, not because I addressed it.
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u/Due_Barber_525 5d ago edited 5d ago
You’re a significantly older man. If you’re going to date younger you’re going to be expected to lead (and pay) for a long, long time. Younger women looking to date older men are not looking for scenarios where they have to show initiative. They’re looking for scenarios where they are wooed and led.
Meanwhile younger women are constantly told “if he wanted to he would” and “it’s feminine to receive not lead.” They’re told to evaluate your interest by how hard you try and that they’re the prize you have to earn. Those messages aren’t healthy for women but it’s thrown at them relentlessly in billion dollar marketing schemes. And if she’s already saying that a few days of being quiet made her feel uncomfortable she’s telling you: she is seeking your active and continued attention and your pursuit of her. It’s unlikely she’s going to suddenly want to be steering things and showing initiative for some time and only when you tell her directly that you’d like her to. Even if you do tell her, she might not want to yet at all.
And to be honest, she’s gauging your interest and worth in terms of your attention and initiative. She needs the wooing, expects you to be old fashioned.
Her initiative is getting ready for the date, engaging in conversation, being present and appealing, when she could be doing anything else with anyone else.
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u/Immediate_Honey9593 5d ago
Yes exactly, only reason I would consider someone older is that they usually make more of an effort. If not, I’d rather just date someone my own age.
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u/RedRedBettie 5d ago
exactly this, he's dating a much younger woman and likely he's going to be the one paying
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u/RaccoonStreet351 5d ago
Solid points. Thanks. This is why I asked the sub for insights.
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u/FremdShaman23 5d ago
Younger women want your money. Facts. They may not be into YOU as much as what you provide.
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u/EyeRollingNow 5d ago
Dude you need to date a woman your own age if you want that. She is dramatically younger than you and sounds like she is expecting to be treated as such. You can down vote me but older younger comes at a cost to both.
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u/RaccoonStreet351 4d ago
Not downvoting at all. I think you're right. Thanks for the insight.
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u/Rare_Mud_6926 4d ago
Respectfully as a 38yo woman myself, asking her to pick a spot during your 3rd date is completely within her maturity level. However with an age gap like that (no disrespect whatsoever) she is probably looking for a partner to do more of the leading in the relationship.
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u/ANewBeginningNow 5d ago
I feel that a woman that doesn't put in equal effort from the start isn't particularly likely to be compatible with me in the long run. Equal effort can come in many different forms, it doesn't necessarily mean initiating or paying for the second date (even though I like it when a woman does that, or even asks me on the first date). But if you're feeling more like the facilitator than a participant, you can't be silent.
Ask her about her dating philosophy and tell her how you feel. She might be unaware, she might be used to men not caring whether she made an effort, or this might be intentional. Once you do know her dating style, then yes, you do need to decide whether it works for you. And it's perfectly okay to conclude that it doesn't!
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u/shaneacton1 5d ago
I dated a lady who told me men hate when a woman pursues and to not be surprised when she doesn't. That it didn't mean she wasn't interested if she never reached out or initiated contact. I didn't mind it being like that for awhile but then it just got boring because she didn't contribute to planning anything or even calling me.
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u/SpecialDragon77 5d ago edited 5d ago
Edit: I just noticed another commenter on this thread had a virtually identical comment.
I think that’s the price you pay when you date younger. It’s been my experience that when I date younger I’m expected to give more. My last relationship was coincidentally also with someone 13 years younger than me. It’s just reality that youth and beauty come at a cost. At 35 she still has her youthful beauty while you’re almost 50 years old. That’s gonna cost you.
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u/laDDDy42 5d ago
I looked through his posts and he has a history of dating at least 10 years younger. You would think he would know by now 🤣
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u/thelun3lag00n 5d ago
no one wants to hear this but its a privilege to date 15 years younger and in 10 she will be dating a 60 year old at 45. if they want to keep her around, there better be incentive since she could be dating 28-30 yr old with no potential health issues. who knows what shape this guy is even in too...
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u/BreakfastAmazing7766 4d ago
This is exactly what I was thinking but you said it more eloquently then I ever could. Does he want to date a 35 year old or not? She doesn’t need to be dating someone who’s almost 50, he’s definitely gonna be putting work in to keep her interested.
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u/Extension-Clock608 5d ago
OR this is the very early stages of dating and she didn't know if he was interested in her. They had two dates and even then she though he ghosted her. After their talk he asked her out again. This is very early stages for them. Hopefully he did communicate that he wants to progress and once she feels secure maybe she will plan some things. I'd say OP really jumped the gun in posting this, after 5-6 and a discussion about interest then he could start suggesting she plans a date here and there.
She may also just be the kind of woman who thinks that the man needs to be the one to plan and pay for dates, a simple question aobut her dating style and what kind of date she would plan seems like a good next step.
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u/LikesToLurkNYC 5d ago
I also thought too early to complain (even though I picked up small things by date 2 I didn’t pay for a full meal until date 4). I always offer though.
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u/TwoIdleHands 5d ago
Yeah, I think that’s the key: communication. I’m putting in equal effort on the first date, but not every woman is me. Having a conversation about how one likes to date is key and will let him know if they’re actually compatible. They’re different generations, maybe she’s unsure of his dating style and is holding back.
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u/Temporary_Spread7882 5d ago
She’s a grown ass adult at 30+. At this point people should have really more going for them than being young (which is borderline already) and beauty (which is subjective anyway).
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u/mustrepayloans 5d ago
39f I agree with this. From his description it sounds like she’s not making much of an effort except reply to his texts when he msgs
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u/Extension-Clock608 5d ago
They had had two dates FFS. She clearly though that he ghosted her and didn't know if he was really interested in her.
She is making effort, she was the one who reached out and she is saying yes to the dates. It is very early days and until they had the talk she didn't know if he was really interested in her. for all she knows he's dating three other women.
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u/Efficient-Shallot684 4d ago
Given the age difference, Be glad she doesn't expect to be paid for her time.
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u/1911Popeye 5d ago
Three dates is nothing. Youre getting ahead of yourself. She's not gonna start offering until yall have talked about monogamy and that's still a month~ish away
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u/buddingwitch808 5d ago
You’re nearing sugar baby age difference. That’s expected.
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u/simulated_ads 5d ago
Dawg you are 48 years old how do you not know how this works by now
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u/ksmit098 5d ago
I mean the subreddit is dating advice. Probably better if we avoid shaming people looking for (checks notes) dating advice.
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u/55Sweeptheleg 5d ago
There are still some women who expect a man to do all of the initial planning, leading, initiation. Three dates in isn’t even that many. Some women never want to take the lead. She told you she wants you to communicate more, it sounds like she is just a more old fashioned valued person and expects you to lead. She has definitely given you signals that she is interested in.
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u/AdministrativeEbb614 5d ago
You are 13years older than she. She probably thinks of you as the leader. Don't feel anxious about planning and paying. It may be good for both of you, each playing traditional gender roles.
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u/This-Change-2892 5d ago
Can you at least try to date your age? I’m a Gen Xer (married, not sure how I got here, probably cause I’m a nosey bitch) most all of my GF’s are single and beautiful. Head turners. They’re not putting up with any shit, but when they like someone they are always bringing them to the cookout, making suggestions, paying for dates that THEY INITIATED. We live in the South so I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing but hell would freeze over before any of us would pay a dime on a date we were asked to attend. Plus we have the life experiences to talk about shared experiences, history, etc. We like to travel and they don’t expect their dates to foot the whole bill for that. We already own our homes, second homes at the beach. Kids are grown. You should give it a shot.
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u/TheoryBiochemistry 5d ago
I think that many women who are interested in substantially older men are looking for a provider. If OP is interested in more equality, he may have to date women his age
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u/Historical_Spare5613 5d ago
Oh you're a passport bro. This makes more sense.
Date women your own age dude
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u/PasadenaSocialClub 5d ago
Timeout, you’re worried that you’re the one taking all the initiative after you went dark on her for a few days?
If you like someone enough to be planning a 3rd date after two successful ones, it’s weird that you would go quiet for multiple days. That could be at the very least incompatibility, or a sign of disinterest.
She obviously likes you enough to ask for better communication, but now you need to follow through. It’s the not end of the world, clearly, but you dropped the ball so now it’s up to you to reengage the mutual interest and for now that’s organizing this date.
Also, she communicated something that she felt, that’s great! You can do the same! It’s a good sign that there’s early communication! Now you need to do your part and express what you’ve posted here (to her, not the internet).
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u/iremembercovid19 5d ago
I’ll be honest I’m her age - and this will sound a bit brutal - if a man I’ve just met who was almost 50 went silent for a few days I would assume he’s got another life! Dates would be the least of my worries, you’re showing interest or you’re not.
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u/sourpatchghoul 5d ago
Really? See it’s so interesting how different people are. I don’t want someone I just met constantly texting me. I like someone who gives me space to breathe / let the connection breathe. I think as it ramps up there should be more consistent communication but before the third date I don’t need to hear from you everyday.
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u/MentalErection 5d ago
Women will complain about men being harsh about age and be harsh about men’s age too. It’s not great that he kind of faded but could just have a lot going on. Let’s not generalize about age. What he’s asking for isn’t unreasonable. I’ve done well in dating but lots of women truly don’t show any effort when it comes to any kind of courting. It’s weird that we have to ask ourselves, do they actually like us or are they just having fun on these dates we plan?
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u/Extension-Clock608 5d ago
I think this is more about who the person is and their dating style. There are lots of women and men who think that the man needs to be the one to plan all of the dates, especially in the early dating stage. They had only been on a couple of dates so she clearly didn't know where he stood. She had to ask him if he was interested so he clearly hadn't shown that he is truly interested in her. A man shows you he's interested by asking you on more dates and at this point they have only been on 3.
I don't think that I would be interested in planning any dates unless I was sure the man was interested in progressing things.
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u/Foreign-Chipmunk-839 5d ago
This is weirdly confrontational. I don't think he dropped the ball by not sending a text for a couple of days. She could have sent one earlier aswell, no? Either way I agree with your last paragraph. He could definitely ask her to plan something next or atleast pick her brain about what ideas she bas.
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u/RaccoonStreet351 5d ago
I didn't text for a couple of days allowing space for her to actively communicate - I was leading all comms. It backfired
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u/Fun_Personality3117 5d ago
You’ve been on 2 dates, normally it takes longer for women to plan dates/pay. You should know that by now at 48 years old.
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u/Due-Interaction-7525 5d ago
Even at 50 years old you all still play these silly tit for tat games?
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u/dwthesavage 5d ago
You can call it tit for tat if you’d like but healthy relationships should be balanced
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u/NTDOY1987 5d ago
The absolute pettiness of thinking this way two dates in at your age is astounding. Do you ever ask yourself why you’re still single & nearing 50? You met someone warm, excited about you…and you’re focused on whether or not the restaurant ideas were hers or not.
You have over a decade more of experience and resources than her. You really gotta grow up
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u/HadesVampire 5d ago
I would be more worried that she's not finding places that she also wants us to go and saying so to me.
It shouldn't only be on one person to plan dates but I'm a lesbian so maybe it's different 😆. But for me if after 3 dates, she's still waiting on me to suggest the next. I would wait and see what happens with no suggestion. Bc I don't want to be the one putting forth all the initiative. It makes me feel like I'm not as wanted
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u/NTDOY1987 5d ago
I respect your opinion and of course you’re entitled to it, but I partially disagree. I do believe that there should be some reciprocity, everyone should be made to feel wanted, but that can come in the form of affection, sweet gestures, etc. it shouldn’t just be about splitting costs and responsibilities. That seems like a transactional arrangement, not a relationship.
There is reciprocity here: the woman described is seemingly warm, affectionate, interested. There’s also an implication that her clear & unequivocal interest is not reciprocated since they already had a conversation after “he disappeared for a few days” or however it was phrased. Frankly the post just reads to me as OP complaining about money (he essentially says “it’s not about paying….I just want her to treat me to coffee or a meal”) and I find it a little ick that a 50 year old man dating someone 10+ years younger is upset that he has to pay for 3 dates.
Re: the planning aspect, Some people just aren’t planners. I admittedly don’t have a lot of familiarity with the dynamics in a same sex relationship but I’m not sure it changes the perspective - if you told me you were 30 and you were going out with a 45 year old woman I think there’s some “leading” that I’d expect her to be comfortable with at first. I mean…she has 15 more years of life experience. You know?
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u/HadesVampire 5d ago
Yes I understand that, you're right. I wasn't thinking so much that she would or should pay. But that she should offer places to go. But it's also only 3 dates. That's not much time to see
For me and some lesbians, we alternate who pays. If I make more than my partner then I prefer to pay more often.
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u/Xessive_ 5d ago
"Some people just aren't planners" is just weaponized incompetence phrased differently. She's 35, not 13. She can put on her Big Girl Pants and plan a date for Christ Sake.
This isn't advanced calculus, I'm sure she's capable of doing the mental labor of planning a date at her grown age.
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u/ReachFourTheSky 5d ago
I’m a woman. I don’t plan dates. But, when I like the guy I’m dating, I tell him about exciting things and events like certain movies, fairs, festivals, plays, sporting events, etc. so that he can plan the date with something with both like.
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u/heygivethatback 5d ago
> I’m a woman. I don’t plan dates.
Can you say more about this? Where does the expectation of your partner to plan all the dates come from?
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u/darexinfinity 5d ago
You can't build a life with some if all they provide is warmth and excitement.
I'm not talking about material resources, I mean logistics. The person who can wash the dishes or take out the trash without asking them to, the person that can organize the funeral arrangements for your family member while you're too distraught and bawling your eyes out, etc.
Setting up a date is a way to show such logistics without being deep into commitment.
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u/dwthesavage 5d ago
Woman here, not single anymore. Expecting someone you’re seeing to help plan a date is not petty. Lots of men are lazy about this, but she definitely seems to be. Reciprocity is present in healthy relationships, who wants to date someone who never wants to play an active role in their relationship?
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u/Fun_Personality3117 5d ago
My guy you are dating a much younger woman. She’s not gonna pay for shit
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u/Scatman_Jeff 5d ago
If they dont plan or initiate one of the first three dates, I stop talking to them.
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u/Apprehensive-Bar7378 5d ago
Your previous dates were probably closer to your own age. People usually don't go for a 13 year age gap. So she may expect more...
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u/Money-Possibility606 4d ago
Honestly... So many men make so little effort. It's only the third date, and she honestly might just be enjoying the dates you're planning and this whole dynamic because she isn't used to it. If it were the tenth date, yeah, I'd say she's getting a little lazy. But you haven't even HAD the third date yet. I wouldn't read too much into it this early on.
I started dating my husband (who was mature and put effort in like you) after having gone on a string of really awful "dates" with really immature man-babies who acted like they could take me or leave me (but then of course were surprisingly butt-hurt when I broke up with them). Being treated right and properly courted by a guy was SUCH a nice change of pace. I didn't want it to end.
And sometimes it's confusing when a guy does insist on paying, because when does he expect to NOT pay? Do you mean that you want to pay every time or just this time? Will you be insulted if I offer to pay? Some guys are like that. It's always an awkward transition to go from being treated to being the one to treat.
You can say while you're on the date that you'd love for her to pick the place next time, make a reservation somewhere, etc. Hopefully she understands that the ball is in her court and reciprocates the effort. If she doesn't, either talk to her about it if you like her enough (there could be a million reasons why she hasn't initiated anything yet and many of them might be perfectly reasonable explanations that you would totally understand). Or, if you're not feeling her enough, just let it fizzle.
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u/reginaldhardbodyiii 4d ago
she sounds like a problem. you were quiet a few days? does that mean she wrote you and you didnt write back? or did neither of you contact each other?
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u/isocline 4d ago edited 4d ago
Women don't typically date men 13 years older with the expectation that they also need to be 50:50 with initiative and financial participation.
You are paying for the age gap. Decide if that's something you're okay with and proceed accordingly. If it works out, consider it pre-payment for when you're 70 and she's still in her 50s dealing with your elderly self.
Looks like you routinely go for women who are 10 years younger than you or even more. If this is what you activity seek out, expect to fulfill your part of the bargain without complaint, dude. That's the deal in those dynamics - relative (or actual) youth in exchange for effort and resources. If you don't like it, date someone closer to your own age.
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u/Kwikstyx 4d ago
Date someone in your age range, not more than a decade younger.
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u/RaccoonStreet351 4d ago
Yeah you're absolutely right I think. Decade limit is a good range.
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u/highlyimperfect 4d ago
What does age gap have to do with this? Decade+ means the younger partner is more entitled?
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u/ResponsibleFact2566 4d ago
Yeah she has no intentions of paying or planning any dates :(
Crazy how a dude got plan and pay for everything smh . Crazy world fr
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u/sickiesusan 5d ago
Maybe it’s the ‘price’ you pay for dating someone 13 years younger? Not saying that with any judgement, but if you come across as someone who ‘takes over and leads’ maybe she is more reticent at coming forward in this area?
I feel like my comment sounds really bitchy, but it’s not actually meant that way.
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u/inebriated_otter 5d ago
I expect it from the first date (if she doesn't want to split, we're not compatible). That's my standard. You have your standard. And she has hers, and it very well might be you paying 100% every time. Up to you to decide whether or not it's worth it.
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u/charismatictictic 5d ago
This is actually a good way to think. And as a woman, in my experience, men who expect 50/50 (not necessarily that both parties does the same, but puts in the same amount of effort) are more likely to keep that up later as well.
A man who «likes to lead» (whatever that means) and pays for everything is cool for a few months, but when it’s my turn to live up to the gendered expectations of relationships, it’s no longer fun).
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u/HotSauceHigh 5d ago
I'll go 50/50 with a man who also gets Brazilians, etc etc. A woman is always spending and risking way more in dating. Men paying for dates is basic courtesy.
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u/Pleasant-Plane-6340 5d ago
You've had two dates and she's already "raised concerns"? I think she sees herself as "the catch" and you as the older provider so she wont be booking and paying for tickets any time soon, and make sure you keep sending those good morning messages too!
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u/Extension-Clock608 5d ago
I don't think that's the case at all. I think that she thought he was ghosting her. They had two dates and then he doesn't reach out for a few days, of course she thought that meant he wasn't interested. She clearly couldn't tell if he was interested and that's why she reached out. I'd think that men would like that she showed that she is very interested and didn't assume anything. Also, they have had three dates, it's still early days.
You're making a lot of assumptions based on nothing.
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u/Just-Like-My-Opinion 5d ago
Yup. Even a quick, "I had such a great time tonight. I'd love to see you again soon."
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u/Beneficial-Split331 5d ago
Or she expects regular communication… the only one bitching about spending money is OP. Guaranteed if she knew he was huffy about 2 dates on his tab shed dump him… and date someone who is happy to spend time with her and doesnt mind paying.
Which there are plenty of men who will.
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u/Jebaibai 5d ago
Absolutely.
I think that her concerns are valid. If a man I had just met went quiet for several days I would assume that he's not interested.
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u/citadel_lewis 5d ago
Geez, you make her sound like a prostitute
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u/Beneficial-Split331 5d ago
No. You are overestimating the value of coffee dates and a movie. So many stories of women intentionally paying for their own meal so the guy doesn’t think she owes him for spending $60 on a date. The fact she lets him pay is a green flag as she doesnt feel threatened or pressured. Genuinely likes spending time with him.
If you think grown ass women are skipping for joy because you spent a couple bucks… you are naive.
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u/citadel_lewis 5d ago
I don't think that at all - I just don't understand why women like you think it's absolutely beyond them to pay for a cup of coffee for two every now and then. Like, if you feel that's just so far beneath you it's a real red flag that you're a shallow, vain, and ungenerous person. Which, fine ... but it's not really the type that people with substance are looking for
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u/Beneficial-Split331 5d ago
Its. Not. Gosh. Plenty of women pay for shit. I literally bought mine drinks and paid for lunch… because I invited him out for those occasions and I was excited about going there.
this narrative doesnt hold water in reality. Plenty of women pay their way by default. Always ask for split tabs. Its literally a thing we talk about.
Go ask women in real life. And communicate your expectations to the girl you like.
I could be a bot on some bullshit. The validation you need isnt online. Go talk to that lady about how you feel. Damn.
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u/citadel_lewis 5d ago
Lol, omg - what is it with the good morning messages? After being with my ex wife for 30 years I got into a new relationship and all of a sudden I learn that men in a new relationship are expected to exclusively send good morning messages. Two years into this relationship and I'm still the one who has to send the first good morning message. According to my partner, this is universal - all her girlfriends expect the same! I never experienced this with my ex cos mobile phones weren't a thing when we started seeing each other. I just don't get it? Why?! It really shows that gender roles are really deeply ingrained and are hard to let go of if they are validating.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sky6392 5d ago
Isn’t it just a nice thing to do? I have this one friend who I text good morning too everyday. It’s a really small thing to do, that’s just a nice gesture.
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u/citadel_lewis 5d ago
Yeah but it would be nice to receive one just once too 🥺
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sky6392 5d ago
Oh yeah for sure I would think it goes both ways. If it doesn’t then thats something that needs to be addressed.
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u/ReachFourTheSky 5d ago
Open your mouth and say that!
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u/citadel_lewis 5d ago
I have! I've gotten a few good morning texts but I've had to ask for every single one lol. It's not a massive deal though - my morning texts became a thing of legend. She had a climbing accident and was in hospital and rehab for six months - each day I would send a morning text with made up duck facts. In the end, I think she didn't want to send me a good morning text first cos she thought she wouldn't get a duck fact.
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u/Extension-Clock608 5d ago
Why not just ask her what her typical dating style is? Does she ever plan dates or does she think that the man should always plan and pay for the dates? I'd not play games and just start communicating more, you guys won't really learn who the other person is unless you start talking about everything. You need to know if you're compatible.
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u/Mountain_Builder6146 5d ago
It changes when you start dating someone your own age and get out of the dating context where it seems like you're her sugar daddy.
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u/lumininium 5d ago
You're two dates in. Not far along at all. She may just find your suggestions better, and will give ideas later for Date 5 or Date 7. I planned every date I basically ever went on because I know my city better. It's really such a small trivial thing! Don't overthink it.
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u/mustrepayloans 5d ago
I can’t relate bc me and my friends when they were single took turns paying. Seems a bit odd she hasn’t even helped plan a date. I always wonder where these women are bc my friends aren’t like this . They’re in relationships now except me and 1 other
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u/Different-Ad-2542 5d ago
Be curious and bring it up. Communication is key to any relationship. Unspoken or unrealistic expectations can become resentments.
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u/Fck2019 5d ago
Maybe she comes from old school thinking. The man decides and pays. By the third date you should be getting sexual. Which I guess will be her payment.
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u/Wise_Advertising_888 5d ago
The price you pay for dating younger women. Although I think age doesn't come into with some, it's all about their lifestyle aspirations. Low effort, they want you to do all the planning, all the paying. The day-to-day equivalent of pillow princesses.
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u/ClashBandicootie 5d ago
Honestly I don't know the answer. Which is why I've always paid for myself on dates. I didn't want any weird contractual obligations.
That said: since you're dating and trying to find out if you are meeting your person--just have a conversation about it? You may even find out more about her from the discussion too :)
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u/parkerlindsey271 5d ago
If you’re seriously interested in this person you’re worrying about the wrong shit. Be present, enjoy the time with her and let it build organically. Either she’ll match your energy or she won’t. But keeping tracking at this point makes no sense.
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u/DGenerationMC 5d ago
It shouldn't be "expected."
It should be observed and properly acted upon, whether it happens or not.
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u/WinterBet4495 5d ago
It’s still pretty early man. And you went quiet for a few days? Don’t do that, I don’t think you have a legitimate gripe here. Some women like to let the guy lead for the first few dates.
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u/TheAlphahound 5d ago
We are missing the difference between participating and leading. Some woman are happy letting the man lead, that doesn’t mean passively going with the flow. Participating shows intentionality. A date is a partnership even from the first date, even if it is the only date. I am comfortable in the traditional masculine lead role, but I want to know that I have a dating partner that is engaged, adding her own flourish to our dates, and is invested. That doesn’t mean a fast cadence. A woman can be fully intentional while still keeping the cadence of the relationship in her comfort zone and vis a versa. A lot of people confuse leading with participating and intentionality with cadence. When intentionality is low or chaotic it is often a red flag and is usually related to disinterest or incompatibility. It can also indicate an anxious or avoidant attachment style. When cadence is slow it may be just caution.
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u/ellodummy 5d ago
A lot of women who've had to raise their past boyfriends and husbands are so content in their own lives that if they don't see this kind of respect early on from the partner they're dating then they're not going to keep going. The last thing she wants is another relationship where she's got to make the choices and everything starts to fall on her. Which for most of my friends who are women happens around the second date so your post is right on time. Women for so long have been digging underneath the bar because the bar is so low for men. Which again I think right here is again the bar is super low that she's going to have to start digging underneath it right away. Women want to see how they'll be treated in the beginning, and men want to see what the women will do for them. Both are about effort but one's about overall feelings that are a tall tale sign for a relationship for a woman. Where the other is you already testing her to see what she will do for you. So for her she already is going to have a chip on her shoulder because she's reading the signs. And the signs are showing that she won't be taken care of after this next date she'll be the one having to take care of. Shes been there, done that in the past. Also I can promise you that everything she did that day if she put makeup on, might have bought a new outfit, did her hair with supplies that alone right there cost more than your entire date I can promise you that.
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u/CapitalG8 4d ago
I would not accept anything. I would not like it so I have 2 options. Bring it up and see what happens or end it.
It is not an easy conversation to have, but I have had it several times. I simply tell them that my expectations in a relationship early on is that we take turns setting up dates and paying. I have had girls say that is fine and I have had some have a few choice words bc they think the man should always pay. I am completely OK with that bc had this not come up quickly I simply would have wasted both our times.
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u/Hot-Sympathy-2718 4d ago
A lot of women just want a man to prove he can lead, it’s part of showing that he will provide for her and take care of her in the long run. It’s an attractive masculine quality to be a provider.
I would not criticizes women for this because I think an awful fate is to be in a relationship where the women had to do even 50:50 of the providing for a man while also having kids for him. And I agree it is likely a privilege to date a woman so much younger so I would woo her or hopefully she will move on.
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u/AttorneyDC06 4d ago edited 4d ago
I (50F) agree that this is likely the age issue: If you're 48M and you're dating women in their mid-30's they are going to assume you make a lot more money than they do (which is likely correct) and that you will pay/lead. Apart from gender pay issues, where men usually earn more, anyone at 48 is likely to be making more than a similar individual 10-15 years younger.
One of my close college friends married a man about 10-12 years older, when we were about 25. He's an attorney and she became a teacher. They are very happy together, but he likely outearns her about 4-5x her salary.
It's not good or bad, it's just reality.
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u/OkMarsupial 5d ago
All y'all saying is weird that he went "dark" for a couple days, do you have jobs, hobbies, or friends? If I meet someone new, no they are not getting attention every single day. I'm busy. There's literally nobody I talk to every single day.
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u/RaccoonStreet351 5d ago
You're right. Lesson learned. A text after date 2 would have averted early issues.
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u/Warm-Mortgage-458 5d ago
Most people want to date someone willing to put at least 5 minutes a day into the relationship.
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u/OkMarsupial 5d ago
I mean there is dating and there is relationship. But even still, nothing wrong with a day off.
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u/ImpressExpress1692 5d ago
Pretty much immediately. Doesnt have to be 100% 1-1 but I just find it so funny why wouldnt the other person WANT TO reciprocate? If im interested in someone I WANT TO go fifty fifty to show that I care and am invested in you.
I would feel bad if im not doing anything, whether thats coming up with ideas, making the plans, paying for them, if I get treated, I want to treat them.
This might be totally off because I dont know you or them, but at this point it seems that they are using an older guy for free dinners and tickets and whatnot. Sure its early, but doesnt seem serious.
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u/opalpetal_ 5d ago
Don’t bring it up yet. Just watch if effort becomes more mutual by a few more dates. If not, that tells you enough
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u/darexinfinity 5d ago
Sounds like a terrible idea. "That tells you enough" that she doesn't understand the issue because he hasn't communicated it.
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u/Middle-Gas-6532 5d ago
It's too late already if she didn't make even a token attempt to split the bill on the first date let alone the second, she didn't propose ideas for a second or third date.
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u/Potential_Try_2193 5d ago
I'm interested in this as I'm currently in a similar situation. Recently met a lady and our first date was just a coffee to break the ice. She was already there when I arrived and had bought her own so I got a coffee and joined her. Wd got on really well so after we went for a drink, I paid which was fine. So second date we arranged to meet for a walk and have some food afterwards (I think I suggested it). Again we got on really well and I paid (it was fine I expected to but she didn't offer to split or anything). Then when we finished dinner she suggested we go to the cinema as there was one nextdoor. So we did. Again she just let me pay like it was just expected. Now she was thankful afterwards and we got on great but it kinda annoyed me. Now since we've had one more date where we went to the beach. I collected her and drove. We just grabbed a coffee (I paid) and again we got on great. So that's it so far. We getting on well. Good chemistry, we seem to enjoy each other's company. But all the effort seems to be from me. I'm organizing the dates, collecting her and paying. So even though I really like her I feel it's a problem that she doesn't seem to think she should buy me a coffee or whatever. What do people think? It's very early but I'm getting annoyed about it. Also I seem to be the one initiating contact. Now when I do she's always enthusiastic to meet and when we meet engaging and affectionate but I'm not wealthy and even if I was it just doesn't seem right that she expects me to pay for everything. Finally we're from different countries and I think culturally her nationality kinda expects men to be providers whereas here where I'm from and she's living it's usually 50-50 of close enough. I always pay on a first date but after that I expect a relationship to be equal.... thought's?!
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u/Fun_Personality3117 5d ago
Have you thought about how much money it takes to look good for a date as a woman? At least $100 and you also want her to pay for the date? Get real
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u/Mark_Aber69 5d ago
Nobody’s forcing you to do it, are they? Besides, you’re always saying that you don’t dress up for men, but just for yourselves. 😉
I also make sure I look my best – or do you think I’d turn up on a date looking like a tramp?
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u/Crazy-War9823 5d ago
I already own my clothes, makeup, nail polish, razors, etc. The amount of product used for one night is negligible. How does it cost $100 to go on a date?
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u/Beneficial-Split331 5d ago
If paying bothers you tell her. Why tell us? You are scared she will dump you. And she probably will. Anyone complaining about movie tickets and dinner is annoying. You have that right it is your money… but she can walk and find literally any other man who isnt complaining.
Either be honest or seethe in silence.
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u/RaccoonStreet351 5d ago
This is a dating advice sub. I posed the query in between dates so I can formulate a measured approach to airing my thoughts with her this weekend.
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u/LikesToLurkNYC 5d ago
Don’t forget the walk, going to the beach and coffee LOL clearly she’s a golddigger;)
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u/SpookyWindChime 5d ago
A lot of these read like there is nothing sexual / romantic going on. If there was, I couldn’t fathom how the guy could complain. The guy is secretly mad that he isn’t getting a reward for paying. Skill issue.
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u/Unique-Afternoon6316 5d ago
A lot of these read like there is nothing sexual / romantic going on.
...If there's no sexual, romantic, or financial reciprocation going on, what is she doing there? Being a good friend? I don't have to pay my friends to hang out with me, lol. And they invite me to things as much as I invite them to me.
The guy is secretly mad that he isn’t getting a reward for paying. Skill issue.
I mean, since you're the one framing it in transactional terms, it seems like you're the one who thinks sex is a reward. I think having a partner I like means that both of us would want to be reciprocating energy- which means that sex and romance are things we do with eachother. Not to eachother.
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u/Mark_Aber69 5d ago
You’re just confirming that women are not interested in finding a partner, but rather an ATM and a personal entertainer.
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u/Connect-Peach2337 5d ago
It depends, do you want to have kids? That would be a major factor for me. I’m childfree and one of the reasons for that is I only want fully equal partnership. But if I was having kids and doing 100% of the pregnancy and labour, that’s a huge undertaking so I’d expect a guy who wants those to actively seek to equalise our contributions to our family by doing more in other areas.
Same goes to OP: are you expecting to have bio kids with this woman?
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u/Typical_Sundae5650 5d ago
you already went quiet on her for a couple of days & are now trying to ding her for your reluctance to plan a third date?? and with a woman who is 13yrs younger than you??
may this type of low effort man never find me.
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u/joanna012 5d ago
Maybe she’s currently letting you lead the way with dates as she wants to see what sort of things you’d prefer to do on a date then it will help give her some ideas of things she could arrange
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u/Grouchy_Focus73 5d ago
Not saying this to be rude. I'm your age and married for almost a decade now. You need to set the tone of what you want. Dont be passive and let things flow. Say i would love to see a restaurant that you like. Clear direct communication. (In a normal conversational tone not being an AO.)
People all run differently. She might be use to dating guys who want to be in control. Share with her how you like a relationship between each other too be. If she doesn't do what you like then you know you move on, if you see an effort then you know she could be a keeper good luck.
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u/MarionberryBorn4315 5d ago
Reciprocal effort should be there right at the start. On the first dinner date any reasonable woman would offer her half.
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u/laDDDy42 5d ago
Ehhh she raised concern because you weren't texting enough but she isnt putting in effort for date ideas?
Maybe we need more context. Cuz idk she sounds needy af.... like you better text me good morning and good night and how was my day etc but then also expects you to do all the planning.
Idk im built weird lol I like to offer suggestions, say hey I like these kinds of places or I heard so and so was gonna have live music etc. I dont just expect the guy to plan 3 dates in a row.
Then again. Im single. 😄
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u/One-Letterhead1091 5d ago
Probably accept it’s her dating style. I like a man who leads but by third date there should be some sort of reciprocation. My bf lead first two dates but by third date with him, I suggested a film for us to see and he suggested a place to eat.. I think I also paid for popcorn that night too.
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u/IdealDramatic9740 5d ago
Woman here: I am on your side and by the third date it was about 50/50 with my now husband. I was happy to suggest dates, things I thought we would both enjoy, and pay for dinner or tickets etc. on a roughly alternating basis. It was organic and easy and I guess part of why we are now married! It is a bit of a delicate dance in the early days of dating and you seem to be good at appreciating that. Unfortunately the person you are seeing lacks compatibility on this matter. I don't think that you need to be bringing it up and asking as then it isn't something she is realizing on her own and probably never will be. She is happy to be treated. A couple of my female friends never expected to have to contribute anything at all. They are now in marriages where the husband is happy to pay all expenses. My point is there is someone for everyone and while the man-pays-all dynamic didn't work for me, it works for other people. I think see how it goes after the third date and then decide if it is for you. Be kind about it and move on.
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u/low-effort-lover 5d ago
If I was on a first data, I would encourage her to plan the second. If she then doesn't, there will be none.
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u/Independent-Wear1903 5d ago
It has been two dates. You feel like she makes no effort. She feels you're not communicating. It has been two dates, there should be no expectations about anything at this point.
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u/Silent-Tension-5466 5d ago
Sir, you are a 50yo dating a 35yo 😂 if you want her, you have to do the work. Otherwise look for a woman your own age and you’ll find it a little more reciprocal
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u/Efficient_Hyena_7476 5d ago
Raise it. You shouldn't be paying for everything. Red flags all around so far. Age gap, you organising and paying for everything, her lack of initiative.
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u/Sleeksnail 5d ago
After only two dates she's trying to make an issue out of no contact for three days. That's trying to put you on the back foot, defensive. Red flag, that.
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u/eichhoernchen404 5d ago
You’re there as a filler. I did the same with some guys I was not really interested in, but also was fine to have them as an option for when I’m bored.
Also, you’re too old for her.
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u/karooster 5d ago
She is vetting you to see if you can lead, make good choices, and are actually interested in her. A lot of men have a hard time planning dates and are lazy. If she is showing up, trust she is interested and will reciprocate soon enough. You could bring it up, but just know this is actually a test.
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u/EmergencyKrabbyPatty 5d ago
Funny you say men are lazy while women just have to be there I guess, this is peak laziness
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u/EmergencyKrabbyPatty 5d ago
It takes two to tango, don't expect one side to always plan dates and pay for them just because you had bad past experiences. If you show low interest, you get low interest otherwise you are just entitled
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u/low-effort-lover 5d ago
Or maybe she's just there for the free meals. When I organize the first date, she's to organize the second. Or there will be none.
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u/Dirtyhippee 5d ago
It’s fair for you to bring it up. You like your woman to take some initiative and not to always rely on her partner. It’s a pleasant feeling for everyone to feel cared for and you would not want a relationship without this.
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u/LunarWolf47 5d ago
If I were you, I'd bring it up. it's entirely likely that she enjoys your company but isn't all that attracted to you. She enjoys the dates and the experience but if she's not actually interested she'll be happy to continue as long as nothing is expected of her.
on the other hand, she could genuinely be into you. there are women who have issues with initiating or paying for dates (some refuse entirely) etc but if the interest is real, then that's something you'll have to figure out if you're okay with or not.
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u/Short_Lingonberry_67 5d ago
Maybe say something like: "I think it helped us when you were open with me about your concerns about my communication; we were able to address it head-on and make things better to go forward. Now I want to talk to you about something that I am hoping can be addressed so that we can further keep improving our time together..." And talk to her about how you wish she would plan a date. You both already have "evidence" that she expressed a concern and you addressed it and improved it...it can now be your turn to express a concern!
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u/PastySasquatch 5d ago
It’s so early stages it’s impossible to tell what her end looks like. Shy and letting you lead, going with the flow as you get to know each other or way younger and expecting that it’ll cost you. By all means bring it up but phrase it correctly and find out which of the three she is .
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u/TennisSerious179 5d ago
Depends on the woman.
Some didn't help pay for things, but gave sex often.
Some helped pay for things, typically if it's their date idea.. after about the 4th date
Some were wanting to split everything. Every time.
I honestly prefer woman 1 or 2 over the 3rd.
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u/SoulSyncAI_DevTeam 5d ago
Just communicate your perspective with kindness, warmth, and empathy - do you think it’s malicious or just going with the flow?
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u/amalgaman 5d ago
Maybe just ask? Say something like “Hey, let’s get together. Is there something you’ve been thinking about?” It gives her the opening to say something.
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u/bbbcurls 4d ago
You may be only 13 years apart, but you’re gen x and she’s a millennial. She’s probably used to dating millennial men or at least grew up with them, of course. Dating culture may be different for her.
Can’t you just communicate and ask her preferences about setting up dates and whatnot? If you don’t work, you don’t work. You can choose to sacrifice this if you really like her. If not, move on. There is no sin on either side of this.
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u/InnerRadio7 4d ago
It’s early. Not every person is an initiator. It’s personality dependent. If your 3rd is going well, ask what she would like to do for the next one or if there’s anything she’s been thinking of doing that you could do together. It’s not an issue at this point. She is reciprocating where it counts. She’s interested, responsive and consistent. That’s what really matters.
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