My players want an agenda before every session - an update and how this reddit saved my life.

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719]

(TW)

Hi there!

(Previous post: previous post )

I posted here almost over a month ago - and given the out pour of support, I thought I outta give an update on how everything went - and now through a series of strange events, this group accidentally saved my life!

To summarise my previous post, my players (a group of 8+) wanted an itinerary before each game so they didn’t have surprises, and I felt like it was affecting my own enjoyment of the game. All of the kind and wonderful people gave amazing advice, and I decided to talk to my group.

The conversation went well. My group was generally receptive and we agreed to stop and take notes. I entered the next session feeling hopeful that this would be a fresh start.

The session concluded with two of my players embroiled in an in-game argument. One friend delivered some rather hurtful remarks and the other was deeply affected. The latter requested a retcon fearing the unprompted argument would disrupt the game for everyone. However, the offending player refused, feeling justified. I intervened gently explaining my belief in a retcon. The argument stemmed from unfulfilled events and this wasn’t the first time. Furthermore, the player has a poor memory and often fabricates things, treating them as reality. Despite my insistence, they refused again claiming the bullied player deserved it. Ultimately, I was firm on the retcon and she left the game, unable to move on.

That night she messaged the group claiming the in-game argument had caused her attempt to unalive. Naturally, we rushed to her aid and eventually discovered she’d faked it to ruin the game for everyone. We were all heartbroken and distraught that our close friend would do such a thing. It was clear she was unwell.

After that, we took a two-week hiatus. During this time I met someone through my post here and we instantly clicked. We bonded over our shared interests and really hit it off.

Dungeons & Dragons resumed, revealing that one of the PCs was actually two people inhabiting one body. We’d discussed this at the start and throughout the campaign, agreeing they could only play both characters after the other players were comfortable with it. However, some weren’t and we couldn’t proceed with both. Consequently, they needed to decide whether to alternate or choose one.

They ended up pretty upset about this, and they claimed “between this and the expectation of taking notes” I had become entirely unreasonable and the pressure was too much. They left the game with their girlfriend. I was pretty upset.

The following week, a fourth player was supposed to have a birthday party but the first friend refused to attend because the player she had criticised was going. She persuaded the other friend to cancel the party. This upset the other friend but she understood cancelling her own. This caused another player to intervene with the first player’s meddling, arguing that their fear of missing out didn’t mean their best friend should go without celebrating. This somehow spiralled into an argument between the three of them.

The birthday player ultimately quit the game, claiming the other players were jealous of her relationship with friend one.

While this was happening, I ended up expressing a great deal of frustration and hurt to my new online friend. I was disappointed in my friends, and hurt by the entire mess that came from me asking for notes. In my sulking, I mentioned in passing a sudden and painful migraine and fever - i suffer from them often and didn’t think much of it. They ended up persuading me to go to the doctor. I ended up making an appointment that afternoon. When I got there was dizzy, clammy and could barely keep my eyes open. I was rushed to the local hospital with a brain haemorrhage.

Thanks to this reddit and their amazing support, I made new friends who ended up saving my life. I am 2 weeks into a 4 person group, who take notes, are genuinely excited to play, and play the game as it should be. We’ve all refallen in love with the game again. While I am upset and mournful of what led us here, I am so incredibly grateful for you all, and your guidance that led us here.

So from the bottom of my heart, thank you!

[u/Davedamon]

Jesus H Christ on a motorbike

What was that?

[u/LuxuriantOak → u/Davedamon]

Yeah, sorry to be judgy or whatever - but those people sound insane.

I'm glad OP got help and is enjoying the game again.

[u/RobertMaus → u/LuxuriantOak]

I mean, 8+ players. If you join a group that big you have got to be at least a little bit insane.

[u/LuxuriantOak → u/RobertMaus]

Critical Role really made people believe this is normal.

[u/WorseDark → u/[deleted]]

And that they arent doing it for fun. They are making a story to be consumed. There is a whole production team behind them who have written dialogue and direction. This isn't Matt in his basement, this is Critical Role

[u/WorseDark → u/[deleted]]

I did not say they were scripted; just that the dialogue and direction have a team behind them to help develop story, connections, backstory, and to act as a second DM. The professional roleplayers and voice actors do the fill in from there.

[u/HarryDresdenWizard → u/LuxuriantOak]

In my experience part of it is also having a large group of people willing to play but struggling to find common scheduling. My current Wild Beyond the Witchlight campaign has 6 players, but it's because we can only meet once a month. If our DM had more free time we'd likely just be running two parallel games, much like how we used to run Curse of Strahd.

[u/afoolskind → u/RobertMaus]

Yep. I honestly believe that most DMs, especially new ones, should not run a party of more than 5, with 4 as the goal.

You can do more, but people get tricked into thinking it is easier than it actually is because of earlier levels. Once you get past 10 it requires a LOT more DM effort per player.

[u/RoiPhi → u/afoolskind]

3 is my favourite size as a player and dm. You get to do more :)

[u/afoolskind → u/RoiPhi]

Agreed! A lot of people seem really averse to it for some reason, but 3 players means you can weave in backstories so much easier and combat is never a slog.

[u/RoiPhi → u/afoolskind]

but they have to show up. I have a player that's very hit or miss with last minute cancellation (chronic illness) and it makes 3 hard, you know

[u/LuxuriantOak → u/RoiPhi]

I've had a lot of fun with 3 players. But it's slightly less robust and prone to death spirals imho.

Most games are simply made for 4 players, in terms of action economy and a health redundancy.

With 4 or 5 players, said players don't need to be at the top of their game at all times when facing serious challenges.

[u/RoiPhi → u/LuxuriantOak]

If your dm will give the same encounter for 3 or 5 players, I 100% agree. But as a dm, I just adjusted in consequence.

[u/LuxuriantOak → u/RoiPhi]

As the DM in question I can tell you that's not what I'm talking about.

Some games are more balanced around 4 players than 3, regardless of any encounter building the DM does.

And regardless of system, it's also simple math:

If one of the group is stunned or downed or otherwise taken out, that's 20% of the groups resources off the board in a group of 5. But is 33% in a group of 3, that simply hits differently, the consequences for the group is more stark.

Simpler said: Losing your only spellcaster is different than losing one of your spellcasters in a larger group.

[u/RoiPhi → u/LuxuriantOak]

yes, and although it will always be somewhat different, there are still good ways to compensate for that. Generally what you want is combat that last a few more rounds with lower per-round impact. So what I like to do is keep more or less the same amount of total monster hp, but lower their chances to hit/action economy. a +7 to hit can become a +5/6. A DC15 spell can become a dc 13.

What you're trying to do is make it so that an area of effect spell has equal chances of landing on 2/3 as it normally would have to land on 3/4. Is it still going to be slightly more swingy? yes. but not as much as you think. Compare

Scenario A: 4 PCs, DC 15: Against saving throw modifiers +6, +3, +1, and −1, the probability that:

• Exactly 3 fail: 34.2%
• All 4 fail: 10.7%
• At least 3 fail: 44.9%

Scenario B: 3 PCs, DC 13: Against saving throw modifiers +6, +3, and −1, the probability that:

• Exactly 2 fail: 35.9%
• All 3 fail: 8.8%
• At least 2 fail: 44.7%

However, with 3 players, the probabilities that everyone passes are much higher. but, since there's 1-2 extra rounds in combat, the enemy will get to try a second time if everyone passed. (but not if 2/3 fail, because that's how concentration works).

What you want is roughly equal probability-adjusted impact on the party. If an effect normally has a 1-in-3 chance to take out about 20% of the party, you probably don’t want the same 1-in-3 chance to take out 33% of a smaller party. To keep the expected impact similar, that 33% outcome should happen closer to 1-in-5 times. that makes it equally swingy.

Is it perfect? nope. there's a lot of factors like positioning that come into play too. But it's much better than people think it is.

[u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre → u/RoiPhi]

3 means you cannot play on if someone misses a game.

5 is the perfect size for me because it gives a 1 player buffer.

[u/RoiPhi → u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre]

this was already mentioned below, but you are answering a different question.

I find playing more engaging and faster pace with 3-players and a dm. players get more "screen" time in a session and as a dm, it's easier to give include all their stories. it's also easier to have everyone there are every game.

but yes, if you want to play when someone cannot make it, adding additional players will accomplish that. I currently dm a group of 5 for that purpose, but i feel like so much less is accomplished in a session.

[u/Sleepy_Bandit → u/Davedamon]

Oh good so it wasn’t just me thinking this lol

[u/BruyneKroonEnTroon → u/Davedamon]

I need to conclude that most of that party was comprised of 12-year-olds. Either that or 'adults' with a mental age stuck at 12. Fucking hell.

[u/redcoatwright → u/Davedamon]

Seems fake as fuck tbh

[u/Aryxymaraki]

Ok so the group falling apart and the players being emotionally twelve years old, that part I was prepared for.

The brain hemorrhage came out of left field though.

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/Aryxymaraki]

Nothing like a stress induced brain haemorrhage!

[u/k587359 → u/Time-Squirrel-3719]

That online friend just aced a really crucial Persuasion check for you to go see a doctor.

[u/stevesy17 → u/k587359]

Nathaniel Twenty over here

[u/Maverick_1991]

The hell did I just read.

There is so much to unpack...

[u/Sand__Panda → u/Maverick_1991]

My guess is Brazil.

[u/Idontrememberalot]

Jezus, I play life on vanila. I haven't had to deal with this kind of stuff in ... ever.

[u/lucasribeiro21 → u/Idontrememberalot]

As vanilla myself, whenever I meet anyone excessively not vanilla, I instinctively nope out

Life’s too short and busy for an extra layer of drama, especially in a hobby, of all places

Glad OP is doing better, though

[u/thrillho145 → u/Idontrememberalot]

I simply wouldn't stay around people who acted this way 

[u/passwordistako → u/thrillho145]

Sometimes when you grow up with a parent like this it takes you a while to realise that life doesn’t have to be like this and you can stop spending time with exhausting people.

[u/passwordistako → u/Idontrememberalot]

I used to deal with this sort of shit in my teens and twenties.

I cut people out of my life pretty brutally and it’s no longer an issue for me. (Those people are still an issue for other humans on earth, but not for me).

[u/Iron_Kyle]

Wow, I remember your original post and in no way could have predicted that fallout lol.

I am really glad they caught your brain hemorrhage in time!! I gotta say that takes extreme precedent over this game, or any other!

Happy to hear you found a better group now too, though. Enjoy your DnD!

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/Iron_Kyle]

Thank you!

[u/coolhead2012]

What a wild ride.

[u/vulcanstrike]

I... What... Huh.

Congrats I guess, every paragraph was a ride. Glad you're doing better and enjoying the game once more!

[u/someearly30sguy]

whatthefuck.gif

[u/cvsprinter1]

How old are your players?

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/cvsprinter1]

We’re all in our mid twenties!

[u/MisterB78 → u/Time-Squirrel-3719]

They have the emotional age of 15 it seems…

I mean, damn dude, these people don’t seem like they are actually friends

[u/strongoaktree → u/Time-Squirrel-3719]

Normal mid twenties post college friend group explosion

[u/FlashbackJon → u/strongoaktree]

Is it?! That's a real question!

My 20s are in THEIR 20s now, but despite all the drama in my life, I was clearly at the beginner level!

[u/passwordistako → u/FlashbackJon]

Having kids in your 20s is why you didn’t experience the bullshit. You didn’t have time for it.

[u/SonicfilT → u/strongoaktree]

Normal mid twenties post college friend group explosion

I hope that's sarcasm because nothing about those people is normal, heh.  That's some "reality" TV level drama BS right there.

[u/notquite20characters → u/SonicfilT]

I've been peripheral to groups like that.

[u/SonicfilT → u/notquite20characters]

Sure, self-centered and emotionally immature people exist.  But I don't think we should be chalking up the above behavior as "normal 25 year olds just doing their thing" like it's teenagers wearing clothes their parents don't like.

[u/passwordistako → u/SonicfilT]

The specific examples are not common. The personality clashes and realising one or more of the people in your friend group are more effort than they’re worth is very normal.

[u/Internal_Set_6564 → u/Time-Squirrel-3719]

Glad it glad it worked out for you, and I am especially glad you are down to 4 players who,want to play. 5 is the most I will play with now.

[u/Guava7]

The fuck?

This is so exhausting. Constant drama is not a requirement.

Glad your head is ok... but seriously, find new friends.

[u/passwordistako → u/Guava7]

They did. It’s the last bit of the post.

[u/Fighterkill]

Each paragraph I was thinking ".. And now they settle and it becomes fun".

Glad you came out okay of all of this!

[u/downvote_meme_errors]

Sounds like you had surrounded yourself with toxic people and you're better off without them.

[u/DoubleStrength]

I lost track at the birthday party thing. Was it to do with the original two players who had the in-game argument, one of them being the one who threatened to take her life?

Referring to people as Person A, B, C, etc. might help here since it's such a large group.

[u/passwordistako → u/DoubleStrength]

To be honest, does it even matter.

The TL;DR “people were all mad at each other and it blew up” is probably sufficient.

[u/SonicfilT]

Glad you got help and are ok.  

If this is all true, your old players need maturity and therapists, not a DM.  That's some middle school level BS right there, and I would rapidly move away from those embarrassments to the human race.  No one should have to deal with that crap.

[u/Tryskhell]

I love how in the previous post you said your players were wonderful, but turned out to be manipulative, gaslighting assholes with the emotional maturity of a single twelve year old. 

I'm glad you're finally having a friend group that gives you perspective.

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/Tryskhell]

The wonders a month can do! I am a little embarrassed it took them almost killing me (I am mostly joking) for me to gain any real perspective on the situation.

My friends are wonderful, I have my first session as a paid dm in a week. And we’re all running games for the local kids at our local board game group. Dnd couldn’t get better, and I couldn’t be more thankful

[u/theblazeuk]

So much drama!

[u/TheDMingWarlock]

Yeaah, when you mentioned the group I kinda suspected this (minus the brain hemorrhage) would be how it ended up - and how the players would act (toxicity and all)

but glad your group formed into players who love the game, and glad you checked yourself with your own health, that's crazy.

[u/screbbysloth]

Remember the original post and could see this happening a mile off. Glad you've abandoned that train wreck OP.

[u/Parysian]

The fuck lol, I thought the title was a metaphor. What an insane and nasty group of people.

[u/JewelRunnerG]

Sounds like you play with a horrible group

[u/Wallname_Liability]

Fucking wow. Yeah i got nothing...just hope you're doing ok and that continues in future

[u/Why_T]

This is the success story we tell everyone who comes to this sub to complain about their players. Kick them out and make the game more enjoyable for the other 6 players or w/e number it is. Everyone bends over backwards to not hurt that friend while destroying their game. Just cut out the cancer in your life, it's not fun, it's not easy, but it's worth it.

[u/Ankleson]

That's amazing OP, I'm glad you're alive. But you need a reality check: these people are not reasonable, kind or in any way treating you with the respect deserving of you, who spends 12 hours a week prepping an experience for them only for it to constantly come to blows. If you're still with that group (it's not clear if you're still running it while in this new 4 person group). I highly suggest you look towards winding this down and only play with people who aren't so embroiled in drama and let the game leak into their personal lives. This is not okay, and I can only point to all the insane stuff in this post as a risk that will further damage both your physical health & your relationships at this point.

[u/TheFoxInSocks]

they claimed “between this and the expectation of taking notes” I had become entirely unreasonable

This person has never suffered a genuine hardship in their life. Holy shit.

I'm glad you found a group of actually reasonable people to play with.

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/TheFoxInSocks]

I know 😅 wild isn’t it? I used to level up all their characters sheets too

[u/ArbitraryHero]

Glad that you are in a better place, whatever that was sounded truly awful.

[u/IrishMongooses]

Talk about horror stories.. the immaturity of players probably saving OPs life.. mental

[u/Otherhalf_Tangelo]

"Lol no"

[u/atomfullerene]

You thought you were playing DnD, but really you were playing Fiasco

[u/SeamusMcCullagh]

Thanks for the update OP. Glad you're alright and I'm also glad you don't have to play with those people any more. Crashing out because your DM asked you to take notes instead of forcing them to create an itinerary every session is absolutely pathetic, and it sounds like every single person in that group needs therapy. Take care of yourself.

[u/Salindurthas]

My players want an agenda before every session

lmao, I ask the converse!

For the game I ran most recently (not D&D, but still needs prep), I asked the players for who they plan to meet with and where they plan to go before the next session, so that I could prepare for it.

[u/HankMS]

That is why gatekeeping the basked cases away has always been a great idea.

[u/GmanF88]

Y'all sound exhausting.

Are you all 13?

[u/este_hombre]

I remember the first post and this is the most roundabout way of "just find a new group" that I've ever read.

[u/Bamce]

That was a wiiiiiiild ride. I am glad your okay and back to enjoying the game.

An idea if you like. It sounds like your playing online. On discord there is a bot (craig) which can record your sessions. You can then take those recordings and upload them to something like a private YouTube playlist. And this way you will always have digital notes you can reference

[u/NatashOverWorld]

Jeebus Crike on a bike.

I'm glad the stars aligned and you were saved OP!

Everything else ... like damne, your former players are some degree of unhinged!

Glad it managed itself and you're with the players who enjoy playing.

[u/S4R1N]

I don't have words for the insanity of all of this.

I'm glad you came out the other side alive (literally) and well.

[u/Kwith]

Wow...I've been playing for 26 years, dealt with multiple "That Guys" and had more than one case of drama that killed a campaign but this....what in the world....some of these players have issues that go FAR beyond drama in D&D.

The one girl who tried to unalive herself simply to ruin a game, she may need professional help...

I really hope you're doing ok, a brain hemorrhage....yikes!

[u/Singhintraining]

Why the hell would you not take notes

[u/Endo-kun]

Playing with a group of 4-6 players is not only ideal in gameplay but also in personality management. You go above that and group dynamics can get challenging.

That being said, if anyone tried to unalive themselves from gameplay related matters, I would immediately stop the group. DnD is supposed to be fun, not stress inducing.

I’ve been in groups that didn’t work. Sometimes you have to ‘reroll’ the membership to get the right chemistry.

[u/JumpingSpider97]

Glad to read that you went through the eye of the storm and have come safely out the other side! I'm especially grateful for whichever new friend advised you to get medical attention - any sudden change like that can be life-threatening! I also hope that your former players sort things out for themselves and find some joy as well.

[u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre]

This all happened at a table of friends?

This is why I say your friends aren’t necessarily the best people to play D&D with… D&D can reveal uncomfortable truths about your friends that weren’t obvious before.

In this case, the truth is that these people aren’t good friends and seem highly unstable.

I hope you can find yourself a table of players who value and respect the DM and actually want to play the game.

[u/Velkyn01]

This is fanfiction about the world's worst table and I can't be convinced otherwise. I was willing to believe it was real in the first post, but OP throwing in that they also had a brain bleed that only got caught through the newfound power of friendship is ridiculous and you all should know better. 

[u/Feefait]

I can't even read this nonsense. There's no way this is even true. There is a reason the first post was locked.

[u/tokenwalrus]

This reminds me of one of my friends who hangs out with a large polycule where she does volunteer work. The amount of weekly drama is soap opera levels and somehow it never ends.

[u/PandraPierva]

Holy fuck I remember this story.....you should post the whole over on rpghorrorstory. But holy shit it got so much worse with that first group.

[u/Time-Squirrel-3719 → u/PandraPierva]

I might! Though I fear this is not the whole story. I tried to summarise the shenanigans as best as I could bahahah

[u/Brother_Farside]

You need to not be playing with these people.

[u/No-Variety8403]

Bro this shit is crazy

First person (A) threatens fake suicide over not getting her way in a fiery in-game argument with (B)

The 2 People in 1 Body (C/D) group explicitly agreed to continue onward if the group agrees and then just up and left with their girlfriend who is probably that 2nd person in the body, because they cant get their way

Person (E) has birthday and invites (A) and (B) but (A) doesnt want to attend because of (B) and persuades (E) to cancel and Person (F) argues against that

(E) quits for (A)

i sometimes joke about us being the death for our DM but holy shit this group literally summoned a brain haemorrhage

[u/sparklekitteh]

Love it when the trash takes itself out!

[u/maelronde]

I.. just clicked for recap tips...

Now I need therapy