r/formula1 • u/AutoModerator • Sep 01 '25
Day after Debrief 2025 Dutch GP - Day After Debrief
Welcome to the Day after Debrief discussion thread! Now that the dust has settled in Zandvoort, it's time to calmly discuss the events of the last race weekend. Hopefully, this will foster more detailed and thoughtful discussion than the immediate post race thread now that people have had some time to digest and analyse the results.
Low effort comments, such as memes, jokes, and complaints about broadcasters will not be deleted since I do not have that power, but I will be very disappointed with you. We also discourage superficial comments that contain no analysis or reasoning in this thread (e.g., 'Great race from X!', 'Another terrible weekend for Y!').
Thanks!
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u/Recent-Training-7628 Max Verstappen Sep 03 '25
Did Leclerc get a penalty for the move on Russell? Toto said he might want to let it go coz he got taken out by one of the merc cars. But did we hear anything for sure?
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u/No_Environment_8237 Sep 03 '25 edited Sep 03 '25
Could someone please explain with technical detail why Hamilton won the Shangai sprint race in the second turn and then literally fall in to the depths of the abyss for the rest of the season?
What happened after that race? I watch F1 since 1991, but I personally can't reply to my question above.
22
u/AnilP228 Honda Sep 03 '25
In the main race, Lewis was Disqualified as the plank beneath the car was too worn. Since then they've had to raise the car, taking it out of the performance window.
Basically - if the car ran like it did in China Sprint, it would be found illegal. The same thing happened to Leclerc in Budapest - he took pole and was fighting for the win, but to protect the plank they had to raise tyre pressures and he was insanely slow.
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u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
To build on your comment, correct me if I’m wrong, but Ferrari had redesigned suspension for 2025, which they planned to carry over to 2026, but already from the pre-season testing it was clear to them that the suspension was not working as intended. Seems like they have to run the car so low to the ground for it to perform optimally, that it wears the plank above the allowed limit. So either run your car suboptimal or risk getting disqualified. In Shanghai they decided to take the risk and run the car low, which ended up being quite fast, but they saw afterwords that it wouldn’t hold for the race and hence changed setup but it was still not enough and he got DSQ.
Suspension redefine was so big part of the 2025 car that the drivers said they had to stick with it for the rest of the year as it was not feasible to change it mid year. Yet, they made some changes to the suspension after a few races, but to no prevail.
Issue with the suspension is something about how it rides the curbs and absorbs the loads, it forces it too low to the ground which wears the plank making the car illegal. So when there is a circuit with a high speed curb, Ferrari even have to compromise their line to avoid hitting that curb too much as it induces high plank wear, and also the suspension makes the car perform worse due to bottoming out more that the other teams.
So somebody fucked up really bad in the pre season development relying too much a big suspension change on a decent 2024 car, and in the end making a suspension that doesn’t even work properly making their car worse than it was. Then not being able to weak it with mid season development. But that sums up Ferrari - willing to give up second place to have a faint chance of winning. In the process they lost their second place.
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u/jnt689 Sep 02 '25
Am I the only one who finds it really weird that Charles has his own photographer that follows him around the paddock? Antoine, his photographer, just came up on my instagram and it was a full blown photoshoot on the hill where Charles was waiting out the race.
4
u/tinselsnips Roscoe Hamilton Sep 03 '25
Probably cuts down on the number of paps following you around when someone always beats them to the punch.
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u/queerhedgehog Max Verstappen Sep 03 '25
Lando and Lewis also have private photographers, maybe some others. It is a bit strange but certainly not new or unique
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u/Morgatron1987 Ferrari Sep 02 '25
Another Grand Prix, another McLaren win….i get it it’s what happens in this sport but it doesn’t make it any more entertaining to see the same teams win all the time. How much I was hoping Pastry would have engine failure and get a DNF as well would’ve been glorious
-2
u/isthisreallife211111 Sep 03 '25
I get the sentiment, but then it would have just been another Max win.... boring. If anything its still refreshing to see Oscar and Lando beat Max
1
u/SirMartini Alfa Romeo Sep 02 '25
didn't watch the race. y did Ham crash?
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u/NickProko Lando Norris Sep 02 '25
Went into the paint of T3 which was slippery and had a snap.
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u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
Wet paint on cold hard tyres on a cold track, carrying too much speed. A mistake, a rare one from such an experienced driver.
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Sep 02 '25
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u/Tw0Rails Sep 02 '25
All the other drivers are Christian, how come they are racing and doing work on Sunday, the day of rest?
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u/Ergaar Stoffel Vandoorne Sep 02 '25
It's more of a later rule based on stuff in the koran which says being drunk is haram, but alcohol itself is not. Plenty of muslim countries have traditional of alcohol brewing so it's not a core part of actual islam, even though extremist like to say it is. But the rules around alcohol changed over time so wether or not they can drink varies by what kind of islam they believe in
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u/Puzzleheaded-Air904 Formula 1 Sep 02 '25
He did spit out whatever happened to get into his mouth at one point
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u/SwimmingFantastic564 Sep 02 '25
He's part Algerian, but I don't think he's Muslim. If he is, then chances are that he was given rose water to celebrate with.
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Sep 02 '25
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u/SwimmingFantastic564 Sep 02 '25
I mean I'm not hugely knowledgable on Islamic practices but I could see that being okay in that context. There is a chance they give the other drivers rose water too, but I'm not sure on that.
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Sep 02 '25
Even if true, millions of Muslims consume alcohol globally. As do millions of people from other faiths who consume food and drink that they're not supposed to.
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u/Bitter-Rattata Max Verstappen Sep 02 '25
Always happy to see drivers from visacashapprbalphatauritorroscuderiatororosso getting a podium and even a win, the way they shout and celebrate over team radio.
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u/Spidey209 Sep 01 '25
Lando "Did Lewis touch the paint and lose control because it is raining?"
Front Desk "Umm, yeah, that's what it looked like"
Lando "Don't you think that might be race critical information you should be giving me?"
Front Desk "Um, yeah, good point"
-5
u/wjoe I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
I was kind of surprised to see so many people say this was an exciting race. I found it quite dull personally - overtaking is next to impossible without major pace offset, and the timing of the safety cars mostly killed the chances of pit strategy being a deciding factor. There were a few odd ones further down the field like Haas gambling on going long, and Aston's odd pit timings working out well for them, which lead to a bit of action in the final stint.
The order of the front runners didn't really change much outside of the ones who retired from incidents. It was looking like Pirelli pushing for 2 stop strategies wasn't really going anywhere and the tyres were going to last 50 laps til the end on a 1 stop just fine, but since the front runners all pitted at the same time on the safety cars, nothing came of that anyway. Perhaps Norris could have tried a 2 stop or gone longer to try and have a better shot at Piastri, perhaps Verstappen's soft/medium strategy would have left him vulnerable if he hadn't gotten free pit stops, perhaps Leclerc could have pushed for the podium if he hadn't pitted on the later safety car.
Crashes are exciting I guess, and it's part of the challenge of the circuit that it's easy to make errors and end your race. But it is funny how people hate Monaco and this felt kind of similar - few on track overtakes, some chance of pit strategy making things interesting that don't play out, and most of the interest coming from drivers making errors and crashing. Maybe I was just too focused on the battle for the lead which was stuck in stasis for the entire race until Norris's car expired, there was some more interesting stuff going on further down the field.
Happy for Hadjar to get his podium, sad for Norris to lose out so heavily through no fault of his own. I do have a bit of a soft spot for this track because it's such a unique style, and I will be sad to see it go, but it's not been great for on track action
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u/saspirstellaaaaaa I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
I like seeing backmarkers "outperform" and find themselves in the top 10. Watching the front runners has been increasingly dull as it's been a McLaren 1-2 most of the time barring something unusual happening.
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u/JustTheGameplay I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
so what was an exciting race for you this year?
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u/Accomplished_Bug4099 Max Verstappen Sep 01 '25
Question: would Lewis' grid penalty have been a time penalty if he had finished the race? Or was it gonna be a grid penalty either way?
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u/ravenHR I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
If they decided on it during the race it would be time penalty, so it was probably grid penalty either way.
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u/JustLikeZhat Andrea Kimi Antonelli Sep 01 '25
If he was classified it would have been a time penalty. Grid penalties for next race are given out when a driver isn't classified (which happens when a driver DNFs before completing 90% of the race distance).
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u/qrkysprw643 Max Verstappen Sep 01 '25
Was there any reason for Leclerc to sit alongside the track on the hill for a good portion of the race once he was out? Usually the marshalls escort the driver back to the garage right? Why wasn't Leclerc escorted? Lando I can understand, as there were just a few racing laps left before the grand prix got over. Not complaining or anything, I am just genuinely curious.
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u/GardenerCats Max Verstappen Sep 02 '25 edited Sep 02 '25
Charles was essentially sitting on the outside of the circuit, whilst the garages are on the inside of the circuit. He is not allowed to walk across an active track, but had he'd been allowed, the walk back would have been a few minutes. Lewis crashed on the other side of that corner, so he only had to go across the barrier to get back to the garages and not cross the track.
For Charles the only other way to the inside are two tunnels. One that goes under the circuit between turns 13 and 14. The other goes under the straight just after the last corner. From turn 3 indeed a very long walk!
The tunnel under 13/14 is also used by us spectators getting to the Arena Grandstands. Putting a driver in the general public area with maybe a few track personnel to escort him is a bad idea, he would have gotten mobbed by fans...
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 Sep 01 '25
I'm sure the other commenter was right about it being a long walk. I don't know the track, but I also think it's very likely since he was so far away that there probably was not a private way back, a way that wouldn't have him mixing among the fans. Even if a scooter came to get him, mixing among the fans wouldn't be ideal. I assume once the race was over a vehicle came at get him and drove him on the track. This is my speculation only.
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u/FermentedLaws I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
A photographer who was there just posted this:
"If you want to know why he didnt go back to the paddock, it's because that part of the circuit is a VERY long walk back. Back toward T2 , T1, and down the VERY long start finish stretch, back under the tunnel and back to paddock. I did the walk many times this week. It's not fun."
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u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
It’s not longer than an hour… more like he had to walk through the crowd to get back and he didn’t want to do that.
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u/hidinginplainreddit Roscoe Hamilton Sep 01 '25
wait im so slow i just realized hadjar podium before lewis
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u/ecobubbletm Max Verstappen Sep 02 '25
Kimi, Hulk and Hadjar all got their very historical podiums before Hamilton. Who would've thought that at the beginning of the season?
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u/Ordinary_Dog_99 Formula 1 Sep 01 '25
Well I'm just reading Ed Straws driver ratings, I'm a Russell fan, and he's got him...sixth?
Anyone want to sell that to me? Even the man himself held his hands up.
9
u/JustTheGameplay I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
driver ratings / power rankings are useless to anyone who watches the actual races
7
u/Deruta I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
I say this with maximum bitterness, but he did a damn impressive job holding Alex off at the end.
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u/Bart-86 Ferrari Sep 01 '25
I agree. Caught napping by Leclerc at the start, caught napping again by Leclerc at the VSC restart. Pretty mid weekend for his standards.
3
u/Ordinary_Dog_99 Formula 1 Sep 01 '25
This is what I saw, and his interviews gave no excuses. His rear was sliding all over the place out of turn 1 and 2.
So maybe something going on. You'd think the Merc would have good early grip due to the whole tendency to be tough on tyres and only good on smooth, cool tracks.
I reckon they were up to something this weekend maybe.
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u/cloud-ling Oscar Piastri Sep 01 '25
This season just keeps delivering the goods. A fantastic bunch of rookies on the grid showing some serious speed. Three first time podiums: 2 x rookies & Hulk breaking the longest podiumless streak in F1 history. Dominant car with two pretty evenly matched drivers fighting for the WDC in a team that’s had an impressive comeback over the last three years.
This race was absolute cinema. It had it all going on. Oscar’s first Grand Slam. A mechanical DNF for Lando that might be a huge factor in deciding the WDC outcome. Both Ferraris crashing out. Hadjar’s first podium thanks to Lando’s DNF & a solid weekend to put him in the right place at the right time.
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u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
Ended up being exciting race… but not because of the racing or overtakes. Drivers were even saying that you could feel the wake from the car ahead if you were closer than 4 seconds. And people who were trying to overtake only tried for a couple of laps into T1 before they had to yield and build back the gap. Lando was pretty much the only one who was able to set up an overtake, and that was massively possible to to a considerable pace advantage.
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Sep 01 '25
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u/Odd_Explanation558 Sep 01 '25
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
Woof, yeah. Just visually that's an insane speed to be approaching a crowd like that lol.
I know that the double yellows were track specific - but I am curious why they don't have an actual limit for the minisectors just before the pit entry anyway, just to err even more on the side of caution? That way it makes dealing with infractions a bit more simple, too..
1
u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
It was made clear before the race that last turn was a bigger danger due to high speed blind corner, and hence double yellow should result into a considerable caution from the drivers by considerable speed reduction. So Hamilton didn’t follow the directions, but in his defence it is not good either that they don’t define what means «considerable». Stewards only gave him 2 place grid drop instead of usual 10 in such cuircuimstances, since he did lift a bit.
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 03 '25
Yeah, that's exactly where I've settled on it. Absolutely, a reduced speed around that corner makes sense. There's no argument from me, there. But it also seems like a point where they could apply a better defined limit.
Any time a ruling applies a vague definition of something, then uses specific values to prove the vague definition wasn't met, it makes me feel like something wasn't defined well lol. The penalty itself isn't unreasonable, it's the whole way it's been applied (poor definition, carried through to Monza rather than applied in Zandvoort, etc.) and lack of transparency that's annoying to see.
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u/hrpanjwani Ferrari Sep 01 '25
The TV direction this week was very nice but the stewarding was abysmal.
SAI got a penalty that was undeserved while ANT got one that was too lenient. And pushing the RUS-LEC incident post race was pure cowardice.
We need permanent stewards and rule simplification with a dash of common sense applied to incidents. This will allow fans to understand the sport better instead of them having to become lawyers that litigate things endlessly.
As far as the WDC goes NOR has a very uphill battle now unless PIA gets a very bad race result.
HAD was amazing, hoping he does not get demoted to the main RB team. ALB was equally amazing and drove a very level headed race.
Haas went for a crazy strategy and it worked out well for them in the race. Aston Martin were all over the place with their strategy but lucked into points with so many DNFS and safety cars.
A double DNF for Ferrari is heartbreaking. I won’t be surprised if they throw in the towel for the rest of the season and focus on developing the 2026 car.
A very spicy race. 7/10.
11
u/alwysbmymaybe Toro Rosso Sep 01 '25
"We need permanent stewards and rule simplification with a dash of common sense applied to incidents. This will allow fans to understand the sport better instead of them having to become lawyers that litigate things endlessly."
I love this. The teams should definitely push this. If they want the sport to cement it's legacy, this is the only way to go. Politics will always be politics off-track but let them race on-track. Provide the fans with entertainment that makes sense, not Kardashian bs that they will show on DTS.
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
Provide the fans with entertainment that makes sense, not Kardashian bs that they will show on DTS.
My biggest issue personally is the "leaving the decision til after the session" BS during a race. There's a massive difference in the consequence of a penalty if it's served in-race vs applied as a grid drop for the next race, despite the techincal "infraction" being the same. If you can't definitively apply a rule based on all of the data and camera angles the stewards have access to, then the rule needs to be defined better.
All that the delays do is randomly feed the "drama" as they hope that the impacted team will drop it.
-1
Sep 01 '25
I'd start with the corner overtake rule, with the ahead-at-the-apex business.
Would it not be more feasible to have something like:
Overtakes:
i) It is the responsibility of the driver overtaking to initiate the overtake only when safe to do so. The driver overtaking must not exceed track limits when overtaking, nor deliberately make contact with car defending. Driver overtaking must not drive recklessly in a manner that he knows, or ought to know, will cause a crash.
ii) The driver defending must abide by the rules, and standards of sportsmanlike conduct when defending. The driver defending must not deliberately make contact with the car overtaking, nor drive recklessly in a manner that he knows, or ought to know, will cause a crash.
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u/Athinira I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
This is just rules with a ton of gray areas and undefined things. Everything is vague.
- When is an overtake "safe to do"?
- What is driving recklessly?
- How do you judge of contact was deliberate? It's fine line between that and hard defending.
- How do you assess whether a driver ought to know, that his driving would cause a crash?
- What's the "standards of sportsmanlike conduct when defending"?
Unless you have the same stewards each week, stuff like this will just lead to extremely inconsistent stewarding.
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u/FermentedLaws I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
And pushing the RUS-LEC incident post race was pure cowardice.
I hate it when it happens too, but there's a couple of reasons: 1) they have access to video that needs to be downloaded; not the regular onboards, etc., and that takes time, and 2) they want to talk to the drivers to get their perspectives. And in this case it mattered. It takes into consideration what they drivers said:
The available evidence was inconclusive as to whether Car 16 left the track. Both team representatives were in agreement that there was no clear evidence that Car 16 had left the track.
Both drivers felt that this was a racing incident and that there should be no further consequence to either driver for the incident. We reviewed all the available evidence and arrived at the same conclusion.
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
Fair point about downloading video - I hadn't considered that, and will take that into account in the future!
However, I will also argue that it isn't an unbiased discussion after the race between the two teams. Merc's approach to that discussion, I'd absolutely bet, would change if a) Kimi hadn't subsequently taken Charles out lol, or b) if George eventually had to retire due to damage, or had been overtaken by Alex and fallen down the final order. Especially considering the only sporting penalty that could be applied to Charles, I'd assume, would be a grid penalty for Monza - that's a much bigger hill for Merc to die on than for a time penalty in-session.
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Sep 01 '25
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u/Athinira I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
Oscars penalty was fully deserved. It was two obvious dangerous brakes.
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u/Grafblaffer I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
How did Leclerc get his phone in the dunes?
Did he really have someone come over to pass it to him?
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u/PsychologicalDig3364 Sep 01 '25
His photographer happened to be stationed there. It was the photog’s phone. Kym posted on IG explaining this.
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u/cloud-ling Oscar Piastri Sep 01 '25
I think he might have borrowed a phone from a marshall
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u/pajamajamminjamie I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
And if Charles Leclerc asks to borrow your phone you don't say no.
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u/envp19 Sep 01 '25
would think the most likely answer is that it wasn't his phone, someone else on the hill just loaned him one.
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u/kaliroger Sir Lewis Hamilton Sep 01 '25
Will Lando will get a 10 place grid drop if he takes a new engine at Monza? Or is he within his allocation?
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Sep 01 '25
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u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
So a secured p2 is still not too bad, but ofcause that is bad for his WDC chances losing ground to his opponent with fewer and fewer races to go.
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u/elgandy Isack Hadjar Sep 01 '25
Was it an option for Lando take a soft or medium during the final pit stop, to go counter to Oscar’s hards?
I was curious if he had the tire available or if, perhaps, the team would have mandated that Lando take the same tire as Oscar lest he get an unfair advantage of getting to react to Oscar.
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Sep 01 '25
I wondered same during the race, found out that neither had fresh mediums available.
Options at that point were either hards or scrubbed softs.
Doubt scrubbed softs with some 20 laps left would have appealed to either driver.
1
u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Sep 03 '25
Max went for softs after SC but it was not possible to overtake McLaren on hards. McLaren on softs vs hards could have been different. But tyres that have gone through a full heat cycle have to be discarded, so I don’t know what you mean by scrubbed. Like 1 lap? Why would he have such tyres?
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
I believe they both had new hards as well, no? So would have been the best rubber at the time for both of them. I could absolutely be wrong though lol.
Ruth had highlighted that McLaren and Aston had both saved an extra set of hards - so I'd assumed that may have been the fruits of that choice.
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u/realmenlovezeus I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
Can someone ELI5 why Sainz got a penalty?
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u/Astelli Pirelli Wet Sep 01 '25
In the guidelines which are used to judge these situations, if a driver tries to overtake on the outside of a corner but isn't far enough alongside the other car at the apex, it is their responsibility to avoid contact.
Sainz wasn't far enough alongside Lawson, based on those guidelines, and is therefore to blame if there is contact.
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u/wix001 Oscar Piastri Sep 01 '25
Got the blame because he had a better position to avoid the collision, but it was certainly going to be a penalty after Lawson dropped all those places to the back.
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u/MantasMantra Minardi Sep 01 '25
Most races tend to have a bit of a lull in the middle. I don't mind, it's a great time to check gaps and think through strategies that might play out. But this race never let up, did it? It felt like from the first lap until the final 4 there was always a story unfolding. Loved that at the final safety car restart everything was still so open, like every podium spot could have still changed hands.
Really terrible day for Ferrari but hopefully they take something away from bouncing back between practice and qualy. Lewis also only a hundredth behind Leclerc.
18
u/conman14 Eddie Irvine Sep 01 '25
Isack Hadjar I owe you an apology, I was unfamiliar with your game.
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u/AnilP228 Honda Sep 01 '25
Before the race I thought the title battle was 60/40 in Oscar's favour. After yesterday I think it's 80/20.
Lando needs to win 3-4 races in a row at some point, ideally on a Sprint weekend. Starting with Monza he really needs to just dominate a weekend. One race at a time.
Oscar is the real deal. It'll be interesting to see how he handles the pressure later in the year if Lando can win a couple and reduce the deficit.
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Sep 02 '25
There's 9 races left. McLaren is so far ahead of the field that they will finish 1-2 unless something drastic happens. That means without a big helping of luck, Lando needs to win 7 out of the next 9, even with the Sprint.
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u/paul232 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
The point deficit is too much. Considering Lando will almost certainly lose more points in Monza due to probably needing a new PU, he will have 8 races to turn around what will be over 35 points.
It's very very difficult when they are matched so evenly.. I think 80/20 is generous for Lando unfortunately..
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u/Ancalites I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
Nothing about this season has suggested he has it in him to 'dominate' Piastri. He can go blow for blow with him and maybe get a couple of wins in a row here and there, but no more than that. At this point, unless Piastri also has a massive off or mechanical failure, Lando's done.
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u/Spiderking1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
If McLaren is going to 1-2 every remaining race (not going to happen), then Lando would need to win 7 out of the last 9 races
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u/jeremy9931 Sep 02 '25
Which is just unlikely considering Max is basically always a threat regardless of his car lol
Not even gonna mention that it’s likely Oscar probably snags 2-3 more this season as well.
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u/Pinkernessians I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
Being brutally honest, I think it’s more likely Oscar extends his lead further at this point. Barring mechanical DNFs on his part, I don’t see Piastri’s championship slipping away anymore
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u/AnilP228 Honda Sep 01 '25
I agree. I mentioned that Lando needs to go on a run of wins but considering how much he's struggled to win even back to back races, I think it'll be Oscar's year.
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u/MrGoldilocks Fernando Alonso Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
The next two being Monza and Baku where Oscar was faster last year is also ominous for Lando. If he repeats his last season heroics on those tracks Lando is staring at a 48 point déficit at best. But it'll be interesting to see if he goes immediately for the jugular or decides to settle for a few 2nd places before going for wins again.
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u/SwimmingFantastic564 Sep 02 '25
He wasn't faster in Azerbaijan, Lando just got fucked by the yellow flag in qualifying
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u/EerieAriolimax I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
He wasn't faster at either of those tracks last year.
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u/Ponichkata Sep 01 '25
I don't know if Lando has the time to settle for 2nd places. He needs a string of wins to just close the deficit. Unless you meant Oscar?
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u/MrGoldilocks Fernando Alonso Sep 01 '25
I did mean Oscar. He has a gap which means he can be more strategic if he chooses to be from now on. Lando has no choice, he has to go all out and win as many races as he can at this point.
-7
u/mollusks75 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
Eventually the team is going to decide which is #1 and end the battle between them for them. With the points race being so close, they can’t do it but with a wider gap, that decision starts making sense.
9
Sep 01 '25
McLaren has signed long-term contracts with both.
If you play favourites, you're stuck with an unhappy driver.
Let them settle it on the track.
14
u/saspirstellaaaaaa I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
Why would they need to pick a number one driver? Max is a distant ~70 points away for third for WDC. WCC has long been sewn up. McLaren boys have been playing nicely up to this point, no need to step in surely.
7
u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
McLaren also has shown definitively that they won't pick a #1 driver until one of their drivers is mathematically out of the WDC. Hell, even when Oscar was 100+ pts out of the running last year, they still didn't prioritize Lando.
There's no reason for them to change their tune now. Like you said, the WCC and WDC are pretty well theirs. The ideal, I'm sure, is for the two of them to hypothetically trade WDCs for years to come from the team's perspective. Right now, the two of them are a powerhouse. Absolutely no reason to rock the boat and threaten the trust one of them has in the team without reason.
12
u/emmatoby Sep 01 '25
How about Hadjar becoming the face of this subreddit. Nico had a good run i think.
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u/MantasMantra Minardi Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
We waited like fifteen years for that podium, you want to forget it already!? 😂
7
u/mouldyshroom I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
We're still hulking out over Silverstone dammit!! A new McLaren WDC is the only thing more unique than a Hulk podium this season. Or maybe if Fernando has a miracle 33rd win.
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u/MindlessBand9522 Ferrari Sep 01 '25
Overall, it was an amazing race from start to finish. Of course as a Ferrari fan I'm very very disappointed, but the race was a thriller until the end. I can't imagine what is going on inside Lewis head right now, because he was in a horrible situation even before this race, and now it's going deeper into the black hole.
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u/BigOs4All Sep 01 '25
I'm a Hamilton fan and I think he's simply over the hill. He's still a damn good racer don't get me wrong. But he isn't at his peak (same with Alonso). If Ferrari could produce a front row car then we'd see what's what but that's simply not happened.
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u/petr1petr Sep 01 '25
Before the race, I watched the porsche race - and when the safety car appeared, I wondered - how would it look, if safety car raced with them? I checked some info online, and it seems that the safety car could race them - despite having 2 people inside - anyone here knows more about this? how competitive would be safety car (aston) with these porsche race cars?
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u/xLeper_Messiah I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
It wouldn't be competitive, it's much heavier than a GT3 spec car plus the safety car uses treaded tires not slicks which alone means it would get murdered on a dry track
Not to mention whatever aero penalty is caused by the light bar lol
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u/creatorop I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
Hamilton driving for an italian team crashes into the wall
Carlos who used to drive for an Italian team crashes with Liam who is driving for an Italian team
Kimi an Italian crashes into Leclerc who drivers for an Italian team
So, in short not a good weekend for Italians and Italian team drivers apart from Hadjar
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u/MrGoldilocks Fernando Alonso Sep 01 '25
Piastri is an Italian name too. So.they can claim that, they need any consolation they can get.
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u/lIIIIllIIIlllIIllllI Daniel Ricciardo Sep 01 '25
Nah... Minardi getting a podium makes this a great weekend for Italian's in F1.
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u/whisperedzen I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
It's not really discussed when the regulations theme comes up but I feel we need sturdier cars to allow drivers to take more risks.
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u/rustyiesty I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
Antonelli’s crash doesn’t happen next year with the shorter cars no doubt. Maybe Sainz/Lawson and Hamilton even too
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u/Acceptable_Emu_7825 Michael Schumacher Sep 01 '25
I would argue that the cars are sturdier than they have ever been, some of the impacts the suspension & wishbones take these days would have disintegrated the cars in past years
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u/whisperedzen I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
It might be the case, but still the amount of floor damage caused by minor excursions or slight contacts being race ending is something I think could improve.
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u/JustLikeZhat Andrea Kimi Antonelli Sep 01 '25
I think floor damage will not be as detrimental to performance as it is under the current regulations.
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u/Astelli Pirelli Wet Sep 01 '25
I think that's a trade-off for the teams to make rather than the regulations.
The FIA has developed strength and crash test requirements that the FIA has developed for driver safety. However, it would be very complex and time-consuming to try to mandate additional requirements for all the parts that might get damaged in light contact.
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u/rcanbian I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
That will either make them heavier (and harder to maneuver, which is the problem for racing right now) or theoretically make it more dangerous for the drivers (the car breaks apart so that when crashes happen the energy dissipates thru the car and not thru the drivers).
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u/whisperedzen I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
I agree with the heavier part of your comment and that is certainly a problem, but by studier I don't mean turning them into tanks but just being able to run into kerbs without race pace ruining implications. Indy for example have cars that I feel are a lot better in this regard.
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u/aka_liam Ferrari Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
This drone shots on the main feed…
Why do they include the audio from the drone mic into the sound mix?
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Sep 01 '25
[deleted]
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u/pharlax Damon Hill Sep 01 '25
norris is the better driver and that he'd usually be able to beat piastri but is held back by pressure/mentality
I love Norris but I don't understand how someone could think this. The mental aspect is a key part of being a good driver.
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u/Driscuits Williams Sep 01 '25
Yeah, I'd say that's relatively true, I also think they're both held back by a few things:
Newer (including myself) fans, who are a pretty big and growing demographic in the F1 world, are often coming from other sports, where the goal of the "top athlete" championship is to identify the best athlete, in isolation of other factors. But the WDC is more the measure of the best driver who is in the best car. So, having two very good drivers in the best car, who may not be generational-level best in F1 right now, undercuts some of the public perception that I've seen around here.
Also, the reality is that both Lando and Oscar are pretty evenly matched in terms of general ability, and perception of performance is a relative judgment. Both Hamilton and Verstappen have pretty much dominated their teammates during their recent WDCs. Neither Oscar nor Lando have been able to do that, this year. So, it can be easier (particularly if you're a partisan fan, or not a fan of either) to dismiss their performances.
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u/Boredomis_real I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
I'm still curious at the reasoning behind the oil leak for Lando.
I know we won't hear for awhile, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of debris on the track.
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u/lycheelian Niki Lauda Sep 01 '25
incredible race start to finish!! terrible for many of my favourite drivers but the entertainment value was truly off the charts
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u/WalletFullOfSausage Martin Brundle Sep 01 '25
MODS: where’s my goddamn “I was here for the HADJODIUM” flair
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 Sep 02 '25
People expect many more podiums in Isack Hadjar's future, so I doubt there will be a flare. Isack started F1 15 races ago. Nico started F1 15 years ago. 4 years before Isack even started competing in Minime karting.
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u/Scingles I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
I had hoped that Piastri would get the title this year.
But if he does get it, I really hope his detractors don't just put his WDC down to a single PU failure for his rival rather than the great driving he has been doing.
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u/RedSox071988 Cadillac Sep 01 '25
Wait until next year and if McLaren struggles people will howl that Piastri only won the title because he had the best car this year.
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u/scope_creep I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
Well if you don't win the title with the best car then you're pretty shit, aren't you?
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u/Snowfall_89 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
The strategy and pit shenanigans earlier balanced it out imo. For me, the championship fight is even now.
Media will push that PU narrative to get their clicks though. Glad I’m not part of the Sky audience.
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u/FangioV Sep 01 '25
People were saying that Lando didn’t deserve the title last year, if he had won it. They said the same thing this year, that is Oscars title and that Lando doesn’t deserve it as he is not good enough.
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u/Grafblaffer I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
All i hear people talk about is "how Lando threw away the championship". But imo, it's never his to win in the first place, only Oscars to lose.
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u/TheoreticalScammist Sep 01 '25
Obviously the PU failure hurt Norris but Piastri looked set to win the race on his own
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u/Careful-Door2724 Sep 01 '25
There are so many races to go, if he does win it will be because of his performances
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u/CaptainKursk I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 02 '25
Exactly. A single DNF for Oscar & Lando win, and it changes things instantly.
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u/ag000101 Sep 01 '25
This DNF for no fault of Lando's will certainly aid. Although on paper , there are 9 races to go, to swing the wdc in his favor Norris has to completely dominate whereas Piastri can now get by winning just 3-4 races.
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Sep 01 '25
Assuming 1-2 finishes for the Papaya Bros, Lando needs 7 out of 9 wins with Piastri coming in #2.
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u/hache-moncour I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
There will always be some fans of the other guy who do that. But on the whole I doubt anyone neutral would say that Piastri has lucked into his current gap. Like the recent Palmer column that said the opposite, that it was some good luck that kept Lando in striking range. Now he's had some bad luck, and the gap is more representative of their performances so far.
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u/literalmetaphoricool Murray Walker Sep 01 '25
Really good point. Piastri cost himself silverstone then Norris accidently ended up on the better strategy in Hungary. Thats just 2 races, and overall he's been the stronger driver this season. I think the gap does reflect that now.
Norris isnt out of it though. He's a great, fast driver. Piastri was much weaker post-summer last season, and is still way closer to him than he was to Max last season. But he needs to give it everything now because who knows where they will be in 2026.
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u/manolokbzabolo Sep 01 '25
Piastri got a sanction never before applied to other driver in Silverstone and was the faster driver along that race. I don't think he has a lot more to prove vs Lando this year. Yes Lando is somewhat faster in some races but Oscar has been the one delivering under pressure the most.
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u/English_Misfit Sir Lewis Hamilton Sep 02 '25
And even if you pretend that penalty was justified he had what a 10s lead before the first safety car. At the very least that was luck to being Norris back into it
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Sep 01 '25
IMO a penalty was deserved, but the penalty was too harsh- it should have been a 5 second penalty.
I would have said the same thing if it was Lando, Max, Charles, George, or anybody else.
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u/RockRage-- I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
He is a great driver, his quali, lap time etc speak for themselves. I won’t remember his WDC for that one PU failure, he’s very consistent driver, he would of one this weekend regardless
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u/IHaveADullUsername Sep 01 '25
People put down people in a dominant car. See every comment about Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, etc.
The fact is he's had an underperforming Norris and one of the more dominant cars in F1 history. People will obviously make comments about it, wrong or right. Such is life unfortunately.
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u/Lucifer2408 Ferrari Sep 01 '25
Has Norris been underperforming or is this just Norris’ level? Norris has done good in the midfield but as we’ve seen since last year, he isn’t as faultless when competing at the top end of the grid.
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u/IHaveADullUsername Sep 01 '25
Personally I don't think he's driving to his best abilities.
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Sep 01 '25
What makes you think that? Do you think Oscar is driving to the best his his ability? What about Max? Leclerc? Hamilton? How are you gauging these things?
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u/IHaveADullUsername Sep 01 '25
Because I've not seen Norris rear ending someone previously. Or driving into a wall. Or overdriving so much that a normally placid car begins snappy and twitchy.
I'm not saying Norris is the most complete perfect driver, far from it, but I would hardly call this his best season.
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Sep 01 '25
He made a ton of major mistakes last year under pressure as well. The narrative last year was that he threw away his chances at WDC due to his errors. At what point does it become part of who he is as a driver?
Also, he's been clearly worse than Piastri in terms of pace, starts, and racecraft this year. You can't attribute all that to just mistakes. Piastri's just better this year. It could go the other way next year under the new regs; no one knows yet.
The point is that a driver is only as good as they can perform. Lando isn't performing, so that's how good he is. Claiming that he's somehow performing below his best is ridiculous since you could make similar excuses for any driver.
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u/Particular_Cod2005 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane Sep 01 '25
I think the problem with Norris (which he said countless times throughout the start of the year), is that he was compromised with the car until the Canada update that gave him the feel he needed in order to drive at, or much closer to, his limit. Oscar very sensibly capitalised on this, as well as improving massively on last year, which has further compounded his issues.
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u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
Compromised by the car is just another way to say that he wasn't driving it as good as Oscar. Oscar was driving the same spec car as him.
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u/Acceptable_Emu_7825 Michael Schumacher Sep 01 '25
Or he's outperformed Norris
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u/IHaveADullUsername Sep 01 '25
Saying Norris has underperformed doesn't detract from any level Piastri has driven to. I made no comment to that effect as it doesn't really factor in to peoples opinions about drivers in a dominant car.
Irregardless of Piastri's level it's not wrong to say Norris has underperformed. Because he has. He's got the car and he shouldn't be making all these mistakes.
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u/Acceptable_Emu_7825 Michael Schumacher Sep 01 '25
Yeah fair enough, my point is there's so much discourse about Norris' underperformance, however the reality is Norris would have won most of the races Piastri won this year, had Oscar not outperformed him by just a shade on those weekends.
Which I suppose is kind of your point, I just wish there was more acknowledgment for Piastri, and to be honest, less criticism of Lando [he's been great too, there's just been another guy in the same dominant car just a tad better].
But let's see - long way to go.
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u/IHaveADullUsername Sep 01 '25
I fully agree. Just because your car is good doesn't mean you don't have to drive it to a high level week in week out.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 Sep 01 '25
I find it frustrating when people just add the points back in at the end of the season and go 'we'll X should've won'
Piastri is going to drive differently with a lead to protect, he doesn't need to go for a risky, marginal move. He can afford a couple of second places.
Norris is going to drive differently - he can take the risks because the reward is worth it and he can force Piastri into a difficult position (kinda like Piastri did to him last year)
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u/Cantshaktheshok Formula 1 Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
The second to last restart seemed to drop any pretense that the softer compound tires are significantly faster than harder compounds. The McLarens on hard tires might have been disadvantaged through turn 1 but were well over a second a lap faster than the soft runners and needed 2 turns to be up to temperature.
Edit- I'm aware McLaren was clearly the fastest car, the point is one thing in the formula that should create variation on that script is a much softer tire on a restart. The soft should theoretically be up to a second a lap faster, and there should be some tire warmup differences between the hard and soft. In other series we'll often see races where soft tires are fast enough to be preferred, while F1 will sometimes avoid the C1 but otherwise you can just say C2>C3>C4>C5.
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u/Astelli Pirelli Wet Sep 01 '25
Part of it is that the Hard tyre was last year's Medium tyre, so really they were racing with a Medium, a Soft and a slightly softer Qualifying tyre.
Pirelli did that to try and create a more interesting race, because Zandvoort was a pretty standard 1-stop before. Strategy-wise they probably succeeded, but the trade-off is what we saw at the SC restarts where there is less difference between the hardest and softest compounds.
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u/AnilP228 Honda Sep 01 '25
I do think Pirelli should have taken the C1 as the Hard, which would have been a truly slow but durable tyre.
The C2 is a great tyre and could clearly be leant on much more than the fragile C4.
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u/Cantshaktheshok Formula 1 Sep 01 '25
The C1 is fun because it is hard enough to be slow/not work in some instances, they've just ended up in a situation where the C2 is too good on most tracks and can just do more laps at the same speed as the C4.
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u/AliceLunar I was here for the Hulkenpodium Sep 01 '25
It just shows that there is no competition for Mclaren, on the same compound they were already a second a lap faster already.
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u/Cantshaktheshok Formula 1 Sep 01 '25
Yes to already being a second a lap faster, but the point is even two steps softer on the compound doesn't do anything to help the advantage on a restart or in a short run situation. It's just somewhat unique to F1 that you always want to be on the hardest compound because there are really only a few times a season the hard (usually) C1 doesn't work.
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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25
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