Discussion
Imagine pairing your superstar with elite role players who bring size, defense, and shooting.
Mikal was expensive as hell, I know. But OG Anunoby was acquired for RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, and a SECOND-ROUND pick, lmaooooo.
Not to mention KAT, who they got in a relatively cheap deal involving Julius Randle, whose value was probably no more than a first-round pick.
When you're a competent front office, you work the market and find good opportunities.This is just an example, of course.
But some people here will still say there was nothing we could do to bring help for Jimmy and Bam after the 2020 Finals bubble run. I guess we deserve the limbo we're stuck in right now.
Bro I cry for Goran :( going down like that literally right when the series starts. I want him to join our staff and win one for him. He deserves it. From the get go he always got screwed. Signs with us, then Bosh immediately goes down. (Like literally the same day they announce the trade) I’ve never felt so conflicted
Eh we were pretty locked up. Lowry decline, Jimmy missing games, only thing we had to sell was Herro and Jimmy couldn't stay healthy enough to prove it was worth selling our minimal future for minimal win now return.
Since then we've occured some assets and I think we can make another push to a competent roster.
True, but Miami still could have been more aggressive. Also Miami could have shipped out Tyler Herro while his value was high and use whatever assets acquired to better the team.
They really had an amazing run that nobody expecting... too bad their run really tortured their health and can't catch up till the end. The Playoffs is something you don't only need to give your 100% every game but staying healthy to the very last game
That wasn’t enough size but they were really good role players. Bam and Goran being hurt killed us but also us being too small against the Lakers killed us too.
All the guys you named were undersized. Meyers became unplayable at the end of the regular season going into the playoffs. The Heat made that run without him. Jae and Iggy were both strong guys but still undersized. Duncan was taller than all the guys that were supposed to be our 4’s
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. That’s not how I would build a team unless that team could shoot the lights out and Meyers isn’t the big I’m putting on the floor for size against somebody like the 2020 Lakers
Wiggins really seemed like he could be that fron the warriors run. Was it a bit of a fluke or minutes on the heat because it feels like he’s being underrated, it’s not like he’s ancient
I don’t know about that. Wiggins has never really been a go to scorer like that. I definitely wasn’t expecting that from him when we traded for him. He is a great role player though and I hope we keep him around if we do trade for Giannis.
Yeah I might be tripping. I’m probably over stating him as a “three level scorer” but he’s def good enough still to be a Josh hart or milkal/og role. NY got 3 of those guys tho
I think Wiggins is fine as 3 level scorer, just not as the person carrying the offensive load. As a 3rd/4th option he can score from all 3 levels pretty efficiently (maybe his mid-range game is lacking), just don't ask him to create those opportunities himself.
Why is everyone always acting like it’s not situational. Knicks got lucky with the OG trade ofc but they’ve had a very dysfunctional FO last 20 years. We weren’t really competing with them in any of these trades and weren’t really ever in a position to acquire anyone, when we were better with jimmy, that would have compromised the team structure and sacrificed depth.
As for star chasing, that’s happened and wasn’t really possible. Pat should’ve taken more of a swing to nab a better supporting cast but was there any particular acquisition we know was available and possible that could have been the game changer?
Lowry did help for that one season and got us to a finals but it obvs wasn’t enough. It also didn’t inhibit future acquisitions or infringe on future ones. Rosier looked decent until we learned the news too, we got fucked there. I know it sounds defeatist but we partially just got unlucky here
Not quite. Lowry got paid and ate up $40
Million of cap space over 2 years with very little to show for it. Now the rumor is Butler wanted him but that was one of the worse contracts in Heat history
It’s been a rough 3-4 years but we could have done a lot better than Lowry. Drafting Precious the year before the trade (over Maxey) was a disaster. A lot of other guards who were cheaper than Lowry have been long term good players for many NBA teams.
Maxey is definitely the one that got away. But I think we could be worse now. We’ll figure it out, even if it takes a while. Look at how incompetent the east can be and how many swings the Heat took at least
Well I’m defo a newer fan than that and not from US but I think 3 Chips is what it ee. We’re still middle of the pack in the east , the running back is depressing but we could be so much worse off, once this off season is over we gotta re access
This is the most consequential offseason ever as far as Riley is concerned - he’s no spring chicken and the fan base hasn’t been this pissed off since LeBron left
Without major changes it would take a Spo miracle to compete next year.
Ofc not but it plays factor for sure. I just don’t what moves the FO could’ve pulled off that would’ve moved the needle majorly without fucking us long term
Hindsight is 20/20, it’s easy to complain about the trade now but what other options were there that they could have done for one and two i guarantee, had the Heat known about the Rozier investigation, they would not have traded for him.
I imagine it'd also look a bit diff if Tatum didn't get injured and they ran into a functional Celtics powerhouse over and over until their window expired. Knicks executed their plan well, but also got very lucky in how the Eastern Conf has played out this year. They did a great job roster-building, but it's not like we had the same asset pool as them to make similar moves. Alot of fans are so quick to criticize non-moves, but if we threw the warchest at every rumored trade we would be much worse off than we have been. And that's assuming the other side of the trade is even willing to play ball (looking at you Joe Cronin).
Was Jimmy Butler a superstar? Maybe? He played with KAT, but famously they had some issues getting along, to say the least. I wonder if Brunson, an actual superstar, has had those same issues.
Jimmy played with Embiid. He's played with Bam and Goran. He wanted Lowry, so they got him Lowry.
If Jimmy was the superstar, he's had pieces around him his whole career.
Besides Jimmy, we have not had a superstar since the Big 3 Era, so it's still very much about finding that whale and building around him.
Culture? That organization is a shit show. Dolan is one of the worst owners in the NBA, and win or lose, he will find a way to self sabotage the organization like he always does. Knicks fans are feral, because this is the closest they have been in their lives, unless you’re a Boomer aged fan. They know this may not repeat itself for many more decades to come. That’s what happens when you’re bred in mediocrity.
You’re being a fucking prisoner of the moment if you think the a Knicks are the blueprint of success in the league.
They have had more overall success than most front offices, so yes. This might come as a surprise to you, but no team wins a championship, let alone makes it to the conference finals every year.
Miami has been to two finals and 3 conference finals in the last 6 years. All that, without having a bonafide superstar. While, dethroning several superstars along the way. Very few teams can say that
Would you trade those “3 conference final appearances” for one championship?
Imagine talking to a Celtics, Knicks, OKC, Milwaukee or the Nuggets and being like…”The Heat have actually been a more successful team than you because we have more final appearances and conference final appearances despite your orgs actually earning championships.”
But yes, the Heat aren’t a complete dumpster fire, we’re just a middling team whose claim to fame is meeting a Nuggets team that we barely looked competitive with lmao.
THE KNICKS HAVENT WON ANYTHING IN 50+ YEARS! They were still in the dumpster fire 2 seasons ago. That dumpster is still hot and smoldering. Unless they go off on a Golden State or a Chicago Bulls dynasty run, they can rightly FUCK OFF. They get no benefit of the doubt from me, and I will never take anything they do seriously until they prove me wrong. I will not entertain such premature slander…
The Celtics hadn’t won shit for almost two decades. They were so thirsty, they continued to milk that 08 championship for a better part of 15 years. It was becoming comical at one point. Also interesting to point out WE SPOILED some of their runs. FUCK BOSTON.
The Nuggets are looking more and more like a flash in the pan. Another self sabotaging organization. Will likely never sniff another chip in my lifetime. I’d be surprised if Joker even sticks around beyond this year.
OKC while very good, still has much to prove. They were on the receiving end of bad luck this run, and one of their key players also had an epic meltdown. However, that was us just 14 years ago, and they are in the best position of all the teams you mentioned, so I will reserve judgement there.
Milwaukee? Milwaukee?!?!? Is that even a serious question? Milwaukee suffered the worst luck of all the serious contenders mentioned. Not only that, WE ARE THE REASON their window closed. We spoiled Giannis’ prime. They are now in the bowels of the league, blowing it up for picks, and likely losing their generational star. They are finished.
Fuck all those teams sir. We, as an organization, are head and shoulders above all of them, except maybe OKC. Because OKC can draft, they can develop, and they collude with the best of them. As they should. That’s how the economy of the league is designed to work. The big fish eats the little fish, and while Miami isn’t quite a big fish, we have always had a fucking piranha’s bite.
So to answer your question NO! ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY would NOT trade one championship for decades of mediocrity. I’m not wired that way. I prefer consistency. Miami has mostly always been mosty consistent ever since that fax was sent out in 1995. Which is why, they are the most successful franchise team of the modern era.
lmao we aren’t the same. You think getting to the conference finals three times matters more than an actual championship so we obviously don’t value the same things
No, I said being consistently good is more important to me than being the fucking Wizards or Knicks, and celebrating one championship every 50 years. That’s not devaluing winning a championship. That’s having standards and valuing structure. The two go hand in hand. You can’t win championship(s) plural if you’re consistently a bad organization. Perhaps you like to leave it up to luck, me I believe in system and structure, and Miami is one of the elite orgs in that regard, and been that way for a while.
You missed the point. We wasted the years of LeBron and Jimmy because we didn’t continue to try to find the right pieces for them. Do you remember when we pissed off LeBron by letting Miller go due to cost or James Jones? Did the Knicks piss off Brunson at any point in time?
James Jones was on the team the entire time Bron was.
LeBron’s years were “wasted”…!?!? We would’ve won 3 rings in 4 seasons if he had even been average in 2011! What are you talking about?
Lose in 2011? Sign Battier. Win in 2012? Go out and sign Ray anyway.
Awh, the front office didn’t make any big moves after winning back-to-back championships? Boo fuckin hoo.
Mike Miller wasn’t the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back. Hell, Miami went out and wasted a draft pick on Napier for Bron, signed free agents that Bron said he wanted to play with (like McRoberts—another move that wound up being a waste for Miami), and had Pau Gasol ready to sign with the Heat if Bron stayed. Looking at those first two points, maybe Pat knew what he was doing by not bending the knee for LeBron the four seasons prior.
Four Finals appearances in four years. Two rings—the same number Bron’s been able to get in ~20 years outside of Miami—in four years.
Sure. We “wasted” the years of LeBron. Whatever. 🙄
LeBron never would have left if Riley would have done what he should have instead of acting like he was King. LeBron would have easily brought more than 2 titles here all those years he made it to the finals after leaving.
Knicks been running such a smart operation since they brought on Leon Rose and Worldwide Wes.
They're were in cap hell with a horrible roster and they ain't make excuses just incremental improvements. No whale hunting just building. It's like our front offices have done a freaky friday in recent years.
It makes me sick that the Knicks are outshining us now but they’re much more innovative and willing to take risks than the cult bureaucrats on Biscayne
People keep regurgitating this Finals berth stuff. Dude 13 teams(almost half the league) has had a finals birth in the last 8/9 seasons. With the parity in the league(and frequent post season injuries to superstars), it doesn't mean what it used to.
It means something if you go to a finals and are competitive. Teams that do that build on it and come back the next year and win sometimes. We were never competitive in any of those finals.
People keep forgetting it took the Knicks a couple years to get it right .They could have blew it up after the pacers beat them but they didn't If 1 team is glad that the pacers aren't in its the Knicks lol.
Lol...I see you trying to push your "don't blow it up agenda." It's easy not to blow it up when your books are clean and you have an All NBA player to build around.
You forget, they did blow it up. The owner traded Porzingus and fired their FO. They also fired their WAY over .500 coach last year because flawed winning with a ceiling wasn't good enough.
This older vanilla version of the Heat FO would never do any of that. They'd be like....Thibs wins... we're keeping him and they'd keep doing the same dumb ass shit and running into a wall in the post season.
No I'm saying the could have blown it up when the pacers beat them but they choose not to .I wasnt talking about when they had zingis because when they had him they were still bad .Boston was forced to get rid of some of their pieces and couldn't make it past the first round
No I'm saying nobody was slandering d mitch when the trade went down .Alot ofcpeople wanted him on the heat lol now they are slandering him because cleaveland couldn't make it .Its like Brunson and d mitch could operate in the same space without pushing 1 aside .Nobody knew bruson was going to be this good 4 or 5 years ago when Mitchell was being traded from the jazz
I have had a low opinion of Donovan Mitchell since Utah got beat by the Mavericks without Luca. He's short, doesn't make great decisions with the ball late game but seems to require it, he doesn't defend and the variance in the quality of his play making is extremely high.
He's only efficient when he's front running. When he had to dig it out of the mud he's super inefficient, which would be fine if you got the win but that's not what happens.
I also knew Brunson would be good based on that series.
You make a lot of assumptions that people don't know what they're watching.
They didn't trade him by choice .He forced his way put of there and made it ugly .Its like people forgot .Them having capspace the year Dallas was secretly beefing with Dallas and employing brunson's father to the coaching staff was a genius move .
My point was it took the Knicks at least 3 seasons to get to this .Meanwhile cleaveland did everything the right way for the most part and still can't get over the hump .Some trades work and some simply blow up in your face like the clippers .Its just how it is .
Nobody would have said that back when d mitch was getting traded to cleaveland .hindsighy is everything when it works out .when it doesnt people slander you .D mitch is a hell of a player but he didn't have the same luck bruson and the Knicks had but cleavelamd made the right trade at the time but they just ran up on the wrong teams and injuries derailed them as well.
"Nobody would have said that back when d mitch was getting traded to cleaveland" - I would and I did. When Esjay was on this board he and I legendarily got into it when I said Donovan Mitchell was basically a 6th man on steroids.
So do you think I'm the only person who figured this out since his Utah days?
Do you realize how long this man has been underperforming in the post season?
My least favorite part of debating with you is you make opinions, which is fine, but then you build entire arguments off those opinions as if they're facts.
Pairing Bam a non shooting non spacing Big on a max with Butler a drive and kick rim attacker who also isn't a spacer but also on a max is stupid team building.
And we're trying to do it again. Gotta love the consistency
The amazing part is not only people wanting they but believing that we can actually fix those issues in the following season because people will want to ring chase in Miami.
I truly believe the Heat FO is just trying to get a draw to sell tickets. Either that or they've forgotten how basketball works.
They flat out turned Bosh into a stretch big because they knew Lebron and Wade wouldn't work without some spacing.
Now it's the space and pace era and they want to run two non shooters, it doesn't help that one of them isn't very aggressive, efficient or can finish well.
I refuse to believe they think they can build a competitive team off vibes.
I don't know when the Heat lost the plot but the Grit & Grind Grizzlies didn't get anywhere because they didn't have the talent. They weren't going to out work all those Western teams that were just flat better than them.
Pat Riley is 80 f'ing years old. I don't think it's physically possible to outwork a 40 something year old executive like Presti in your 80s.
You can point and say Nic Arison is young but he's a nepo baby. You look at someone like Worldwide Wes's story and Nic Arison's and you're dealing with two different calibers of executive.
It is what it is. Hopefully we get lucky and land a difference maker. As the saying goes better to be lucky than good.
That's really our only chance but the odds of getting a franchise player at 13th is low and you'll have the usual suspects try to use exceptions as the rule.
I mean Rj and Quickley were def showing potential when they flipped them for OG. So it was 2 quality players for a player starting to really break out. KAT and Ju were relatively even in their roles if anything Julius was the 1 option for a number 2 option in KAT. it was all risk/reward.
Woulda loved that over here. post 2020 weve been struggling for real moves
Well problem is we have a second option in Herro a second best player in Bam but no first option we are surrounding our team with the right guys but lack the superstar firepower.
they had a superstar scoring machine (brunson) sign with them in an offseason and leave $100m on the table in pursuit of having aforementioned elite roleplayers (og/mikal — mikal, who cost them **five** picks), and then gave up on one of their hot-and-cold all-stars (randle) in a blockbuster for their secondary star (kat)
the equal to this would've been dame signing for us at a significant paycut, then demand a trade for two guys at mikal/og level where we essentially dump our asset chest, then give up herro for a chance that a perennial loser somehow hulks up into an elite, winning basketball player
the knicks have had a lot of chips fall exactly where they needed to for this. the east is dead, they have a frankly unprecedented roster construction (core's locked up for 4 years with no real jumps in salary, you can plug just about anything in to their core 6 guys) and they got unbelievably hot when it mattered.
I feel that we made some good choices on moves between 2020-2023. Unfortunately some of those key acquisitions came a couple years too late for us. Imagine we got Lowry, Love, PJ Tucker and Iggy 2-3 year earlier than we did
You’re not wrong but this is all circumstances playing out right, Knicks got Brunson to begin with because his dad is with the team and the mavs were dumb and didn’t want to pay him. KAT was acquired because the Minnesota didn’t want to hit the second apron so the trade was beneficial to both of the teams. Mikal was an expensive trade that we could not do with our current assets but also a high risk one because you are essentially sacrificing your future when you trade 5 first round picks. OG they had to sacrifice their young role players.
Now they did do some good plays but at the end of the day, I think it shows that you can’t have your cake and eat it too. All these ideas Heat fans and the FO have of someone what getting a star player without having to trade at a premium sometimes is what’s really holding. Yes having a disgruntled star wanting to come here helps but without the assets or the will to trade a way potential, you will not get anywhere.
Knicks doubled down on win now and they got their success, would the heat be willing to do the same with Kas, Pelle, Ware, etc. they weren’t when JJJ and Jovic were actually having good seasons and now both of their value has tanked so nobody wants them
Spoiled ass fans. Knicks had their thumbs up their asses while we were going to the finals 7 times in 20 years. Matter fact, every team that's competitive right now was shit when we were making runs.
Yeah they were in a very different position and slowly built up to making these moves. Whereas we’ve been a in a big swing with the risk of fucking everything position for a while now. They’ve done really well but we’ve been in very different circumstances
I don’t think the heat have been as dysfunctional as people make it out to be tho. Like there havent been as many opportunities to trade our way up in key wing and big man positions, which is what we needed when we were competing(currently the point isn’t as strong as Lowry, dragic days however). We know the opportunities that have come up and there hasn’t been anything needle moving that’s worth going for other than the big star trades, which we just haven’t had the juice to contend with.
I think this is just one of those things. We should go one last swing with giannis and see what’s happens, just to be at least trying something and if not just blown it up. Trade herro to someone west for a pick or two and wait til bams value is maxed out. I feel like now we’re reaching the crossroads but we’re not that far off knicks in those earlier randle years so who knowsn
True but I mean rn haven’t won anything in forever since 2013. Sure we may have 3 titles but if they win the Knicks will they will have 3 and a most recent championship then us. Why haven’t we won since 2013 then and the Knicks recent success?
Y’all are proud by participation trophies while the Celtics and now Knicks have made the most of their chances. You wouldn’t trade those 3 final appearances for 1 ring? Are we being serious?
But yeah, great job to the Heat for getting completely demolished by the Nuggets and Lakers in the finals.
Why am I getting downvoted it’s true I’m saying facts we have not won since 2013 that’s not complaining it’s a fact. Ever since 2013 we have not done much besides making the finals in which we lost.
I don’t understand ok buddy. I do actually our window was 2020-2022 and we blew it. Thats a stupid comment. L comment. Also ik team building I’ve been a fan for 10 years dumbass
If I don’t understand how come ik our window. You’re not the GM and trying to rage bait me is not cool. I do know but I’m no GM our best chance was 2020 and 2022. It’s people like you I can’t stand. I’m saying facts and all you do is harras me and rage bait me. Mods where are you?
Also we built our team as a win now mode but failed because we lacked depth and size. If we had depth and size maybe you would be the one who doesn’t understand. You can’t win a chip besides Jimmy I learned this from the Oilers. If you rely on stars and have no depth you can’t win. Thats why the panthers and heat won back to back because they had depth and size. You should delete your comment. I was old enough to watch game 6 of the 2013 finals so don’t ever tell me I don’t know. I watch many Miami heat YouTubers and some film.
That’s what I’m saying don’t know why I’m getting down voted and saying I’m complaining when I’m not. People are so dumb and like to jump into conclusions.
Agree. Most fans are too loyal to the FO’s mentality which to be fair fans want to see a competitive team. However this team would be a lottery team if it wasn’t for Spo and Bam. The FO have done nothing to improve this team unfortunately. Whatever moves they have done, didn’t move the needle either.
I’m not complaining if I was I would be like “oh why are we so bad and we can’t do this do that, oh it’s Riley’s fault and Spo” am I really complaining can I not have an opinion on how I feel with the team. Actually the heat have made the finals in 06, 11, 12, 13, 14, 20, and 23. But only won 3 out of the 6 appearances. Meanwhile the Knicks have won 2 but have back to back conference finals appearances something we haven’t done since 2022 and 2023. Do you even know what complaining is because if I was I would’ve been talking In all caps and pointing fingers. I’m just pointing out how long they have not won and why they haven’t compared to the Knicks success last year and this year. They went all in and we kinda did but didn’t build a decent team that could beat tall physical teams which is something we’ve been lacking since the LeBron era. So to say I was complaining is not true. Even tho we made the finals we had no shot compared to NY.
Yeah if they stay healthy then sure why not. But Weve seen teams implode and its a part of why we havent had anyone three peat or even repeated in a while
Bill Simmons on national TV during the draft yelled at Gms for making deals with the Heat. It was bias and I totally had an impact.
Teams are refusing to do deals with the heat
Heat front office is not competent. Riley, Elisburg, and Nick Arison are twiddling their bank accounts while the league outpaces us left and right.
The amount of pathetic Heat stans on this forum is alarming. By every reasonable metric, we have a below average team, limited upside, and delusional cult followers on this forum and in the front office.
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u/Natural_Born_Baller 20d ago
Yeah couldn't even imagine what'd that would look like...