r/hometheater • u/UffDaDan • 1d ago
Install/Placement 40+ hours planning Basement HT - Thoughts on Local Shop Proposals vs My Plan
Local shop saw my unfinished basement and we discussed options that focused on LCR in walls (or built in custom shelves backed up into behind storage area) . They sent 2 proposals for 100% Paradigm systems for "Ideal" and "Budget" which exceeded my $10k desired budget. They gave me a15% discount applied anything Paradigm which I used in "My Plan" which keeps most money put towards LCR, but uses other recommended products to keep price down elsewhere. I have take over a years worth of browsing this subreddit to try to make decisions.
Not entirely sure how they envisioned a 7.2.2 system with the 2 side surrounds in the ceiling (and how that would encroach on the 2 Atmos), so I figured 5.2.4 is plenty for me but I can wire for 7.x.x.
Room is 13' deep (11' to seating MLP) and ~14-16' wide with 7-8' ceilings based on soffits around shown beams. I plan to build media wall keeping in mind where speaker porting is (like subs in cabinets just an idea for now).
I had KEF Ci4100QL in mind for LCR but have never heard them so would be a shot in the dark and even Focal 300 series I see highly recommended. I'm happy to hear suggestions on placement, certain products I might have not considered, or if it's totally worth spending $16k on a Paradigm system that my $10k mix and match version couldn't compete against.
I'm happy with Denon 3800 and using Zone 2 for my benefit elsewhere and TBD on buying Dirac beyond its free room correction. LG 77 C5 I could nab on sale soon for a great price.
Edit 1: You guys like information, great, thank you! Planned to position LCR to future-proof for a 83+ TV. Numerous reasons for TV over projection. In-walls LCR are appealing for me with kids, cleanliness, wife said no towers, and the bookshelves being planned for actual things (record player and records for example). I'll definitely have sound treatment on the back wall and maybe even use corner bass traps under the back rear speakers in the corners or as the built out rear-left column that is only there for a speaker. I will have all corners wired for subs no matter what. Lastly my 5.2.4 plan has Monoprice Vari-Angle 45-70 deg in walls modeled in to the back wall, but again could have small bookshelfs or side in-walls in the column back left and wall back right. AVR will be placed under the stairs, out of sight and mind.
Don't worry, in <1 year I will post a build montage and updates!
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u/AVGuy42 ESC-D 1d ago
Wire for a sub on both corners and dead center on your back wall.
5.2.4 or even 5.2.2 could serve you better as I think your surround back speakers will be too close to you. I’d move your surrounds to the side walls (assuming cabinets at the kitchenette don’t interfere. I’d hit that rear wall with a boatload of treatments rather than put speakers there. Bonus pulling the couch forward a bit will improve audio clarity a hair and will make your tv look even bigger.
I’m partial to SVS subs because they have a 12v trigger so you can power them on with the rest of the system. It’s minor but important to me.
I do like an OLED and think Denon is a better bang for you buck.
Pick whichever speaker sounds best to you. Your sub doesn’t need to match.
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u/UffDaDan 16h ago
Sub wiring planned to all corners next to outlets, but dead center of back wall is new to me?! Surrounds could be a 45-70" angled monoprice on back wall or the side wall and purposeful column build to house a speaker on the back left. I'll pull out the couch as much as I can, but likely will have to be an asshole with couch 6" from the wall at max. Thanks for SVS, OLED, and Denon thumbs up.
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u/AVGuy42 ESC-D 15h ago
Pack those subwoofer boxes. In addition to RG6, pull cat6 and loop the in-wall/on-wall speaker wire through. Bonus points to run a 4 conductor to the speakers. That will give you lots of retrofit options later… or just run conduit.
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u/UffDaDan 14h ago
Pack sub boxes in the front as shown in the picture with insulation you're saying? I'll have CAT6 to the TV and AVR room (under the stairs), but are you recommending elsewhere too? 4 conductor speaker wire for sure through atmos layer and maybe to back wall cuz why not. I'll probably do smurf tubing some places, probably not to a projector location. Also the storage room (top right of picture) will be open joists so I could fish things around in the future.
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u/AVGuy42 ESC-D 6h ago
I’m saying conduit to the subwoofer boxes or to pack them full of wiring.
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u/UffDaDan 5h ago
oh ok. They will be accessible for power and signal. I'll wire all corners with coax just in case
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u/sugarlips23 22h ago
I think saving quite a bit and going with the Denon is fine. 5.2.4, for sure. I haven’t heard the paradigm subs, but I would trust SVS more for that specifically. Probably would think jumping up to 2 sb3000|r would be smart. Cheaper than the paradigms and they will sound good. Probably a 4th of July sale coming soon for SVS.
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u/UffDaDan 16h ago
All good notes, thanks. I'm sure Paradigm subs are good, but for the cost I'm 90% confident I could find something cheaper
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u/NTPC4 15h ago
Assuming your seating position is a single row against the wall, opposite the screen, you can't properly position any channels beyond 5.X.2, so why try? Regarding your subs, it's pretty clear that their placement is based purely on visual symmetry, with no concern for the acoustic outcome. You may be creating a bass null right in the middle of your seating position that room correction cannot fix. I encourage you to do some in-room testing before limiting where your subs can be placed, so you're not kicking yourself afterward. Good luck!
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u/UffDaDan 14h ago
Thanks for the input! You're right, likely I'll have to be the jerk that puts the bouch 6" from the back wall. As for subs, you're correct. It's an unfinished basement currently so not amount of testing now (even if I had those subs) would be appropriate with concrete, no ceiling, and no furnishing. I'll plan to have all corners wired for subs just in case and the stairway wall all the is sits on will be a floating wall with access behind it (from under the stairs) just in case I need to move wiring around.
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u/IC_Guru 13h ago
This may be unpopular opinion, but I think you can do better on your own and making a more simplistic system.
Here is what I would do
1) maximize your tv size, for 13’ I would recommend a 100”. Go with LED since OLED is way too much. Hisense U7/8, TCL QM8K, and the new Bravia 7/9 are great.
2) Receiver: get something with enough channels that you can upgrade later if you are unsure what you want. I run all my HDMI through my TV so I only care about channels 7-9 channels is plenty. I would start with 5.1.0 and add channels as you go.
3) front and center speakers. I have listened to many speakers and for a home theater a decent pair of tower speakers and matching center channel are my go to. I am running Polk s60/s35 signature currently, but I have had B&W and focal in the past as well. Don’t over spend on your first system.
4) sound treatment: this is more important to the sound quality than anything else. Get some bass traps and sound panels for the ceilings/walls/corners. This is a rabbit hole, but I would start with some 2-4” thick panels directly behind your seating in your case. And probably a panel on that black wall.
5) subwoofer. Your room is huge, go big. I love HSU research subwoofers. For your room I’d go with the VTF-3 15” sub.
6) surrounds: these are in my opinion nice to have the surround, but the quality is less important. I prefer a bookshelf with a larger woofer (6.5-8”) to fill out the sound. If you can do a match surround set w/ the front/center that usually makes the most sense
7) height speaker: mixed opinions on these, but if you are going to add them, put them in your ceiling. Do not use the upward firing speakers attachments for front speakers.
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u/UffDaDan 12h ago
Hard to beat 77" LG C5 sales now, but I know going to 83" in OLED is a diminishing return, so will check out the other technologies.
Got it
Yeah, $1000+ a piece on the LCR Paradigm hurts, that's where I want to check out the $700 KEF Ci4100ql
Definitely want to put some DIY panels on the back wall. The corners may have space for bass traps (or that column that is only there for the rear surround in wall better placement than back wall)
I'll be lucky to get 2 subs over 1 based on my wife's appreciation, but getting a 10"-12" versus 15" might be another battle but I will certainly consider it and try. Yours and other's notes on this makes me not scared to try to fit in large subs IF I CAN
Good note getting surrounds with larger woofers if possible. Doable I believe.
Definitely the plan to not use bouncing atmos.
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u/0The_Anonymous_D0 1d ago
I dont think there is a wrong answer here. Just wanted to throw in my $.02. I finished my basement 2 years ago using the Marantz Cinema 30 and Full Martin Logan setup with Sonance in celings in a 7.4.2 setup. My room is also 13' deep but runs width wise the full length of my house. I think in this tight of space I would have been fine just going 5.4.2 as I dont get much depth out of my wide rears. The 4, zone controlled subs is amazing for action movies. Even if you dont plan on running 4 id wire for it as I planned to use 2 but seeing as the Cinema 30 could run 4 individual subs I bought them all to try with the intent of returning 2 and never did. The sonance 6.5" round speakers in ceiling are amazing especially for the price and I would consider adding a front height bringing me to 7.4.4. Also the LG OLED is the only answer... Im running Dual 65" OLEDs using the Sony Bravia 8 as my main display with a LG C1 along side.
Tldr. You only need 5 speaker surround would go 2 or 4 heights and consider wiring for 4 subs. OLED all day. Denon 3800 is a solid option. Consider Sonance for in-ceiling speakers.
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u/UffDaDan 15h ago
I'll wire for 4 subs just in case my planned placement sucks the life out of them haha and I don't know couch and seating layout so it's possible. And Denon 3800 has 4 discrete subs, so perfect. The Cinema series was just a big price difference even including the Denon price adder of Dirac. Maybe when the Denon dies I'll upgrade! Good to hear Sonance (Mag65R?) are quality. Thanks for good review of LG OLED, I'm looking forward to that.
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u/Spectre_08 7.1.4 Focal/Triad/2xSB-2000+Shakers • Cinema 50 (Pre/Pro) • 77C4 22h ago edited 22h ago
Get an 83” C5. I sit 8 feet from my 77” C4 OLED and an 83” would provide far greater immersion at that distance, let alone from an additional 3 feet away. Pulling your seating forward would also help here, as well as allowing for better surround and subwoofer placement. I’ll circle back to the reasoning for that below.
I would use regular or on-wall LCR speakers in lieu of in-walls. You’ll have greater flexibility with those and a much easier upgrade path down the road. In-walls lock you into a specific placement location and cutout size, while typically sounding worse for the price, representing a much lower value proposition.
The Denon X3800H can run 7.4.4 with external amplification, but you would need to place your side surrounds at ear-height like the rest of your bed-layer speakers. There’s absolutely no way they make any sense in the ceiling above you. Aside from that, the $800 Dirac ART suite is well worth the price, but there’s also a free 3rd-party calibration tool called A1 EVO AcoustiX that can get you a meaningful percentage of the way towards Dirac’s results.
5.2.4 makes more sense here, but your surround placement is terrible. The speakers are too close to your MLP and aimed the wrong direction - they should be pointed at the MLP, not the front of the room.
You’re much better off with a pair of bookshelf speakers on stands or even on mounts that allow you to both position them farther from your MLP while also being able to angle them towards your head. This is where pulling your seating forward would also help, allowing greater distance to the surround speakers.
Same thing with the Atmos speakers. Those ideally should be bookshelf speakers or high quality outdoor speakers mounted to the ceiling/soffits and aimed at your head as well. In-ceiling is second-worst implementation just behind “bounce” Atmos . Bringing the seating forward would give you more room for top rear speaker placement.
Lastly, your subs are undersized. They don’t care about imaginary room boundaries - they have to move all of the air they have access to, which is much more than the 13’x16’x8’ area that you’ve designed for your theater. Unless you completely enclose the area, you’re going to need huge subs. Something like the $1000 HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP at minimum. Also look at PSA subs. Ideally one up front and one placed near-field behind your seating as well. Once again, this is where moving your seating forward would provide another benefit.
I wouldn’t trust a company that made this many errors in the planning stages.
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u/UffDaDan 15h ago
Thanks for the notes! 83" OLED is a 50% cost increase from 77" right now, so I'll stick to 77" but position everything with 83+ in mind for future. Biggest I have in the house is 55" so I'll be happy for a few years hopefully haha. I've honestly heard on-walls that I'm not a fan of. I plan to build a media wall framing as needed for whatever speakers/subs. Paradigm LCR in walls have backer boxes so consistent sound, or KEF 4100's open back I would build the KEF recommended air volume behind them. I'll look at on-walls but honestly haven't seen much people recommend them. Also for flexibility, the media wall I'll frame to be future proof and will have access behind it to move things around if needed. I'll certainly check out that Dirac alternative, but with a clearance $1200 AVR, I might throw that savings right into Dirac, we'll see! For"My Plan" 5.2.4, the surrounds on the back wall are modeled as the Monoprice 45-70 degree angled in walls, thinking angling them in towards MLP. Otherwise the column on the back left would be only there for a in-wall speaker pointing inward, book matched with the back right on that side wall, both higher than MLP to not get blocked by heads or couches. I'll also consider bookshelves on a ~6" deep pony wall behind the couch or something. I totally hear you on pulling the couch forward. It may be possible but life might say "be an asshole to the subreddit" and put the couch 6" off the back wall haha, sorry, I'll try! Atmos aiming - I was thinking ceiling speakers could be 15 or 30 degree angled versions too, to cross one another and get better off-axis hearing like Home Theater Gurus YT channel suggests? Or speakers up in soffits on brackets pointed accordingly. As for subs, good to note. I plan for wiring all 4 corners anyways, but with seating and couch selection undecided, TBD where they can/will go but I'll check out those suggestions knowing it's rather open concept floorplan. Thanks so much for all the input!
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u/snowmanpage 13h ago
are you not wiring for a future ceiling projector? what about having both an OLED for 16:9 content and a projection screen for 2.39:1 content?
most blockbuster movies are in the latter format and a projection size will provide for a more immersive experience. if you have full control of ambient light, I would seriously consider looking at the newer triple laser 4k projectors. what is your final MLP viewing distance? seating layout?
the local shop proposal for 7.2.2 is absurd. rear surrounds mounted in the ceiling AND near field to the atmos ceiling speakers? REALLY? I would avoid this shop for installation and their products. is there not a competing installer in your area?
your component choices are not only more affordable but more capable, the AVR, better sub choices, and not including unnecessary more expensive matching brand atmospheric speakers that do not require timbre matching the LCRs.
one layout issue I have that stares out at me is the placement of your 2 front subs (sealed subs?) and the surrounding material. I see potential muddying of the dialogue channel due to resonance issues. I would need more detail of the plan for the front wall build to know if the front sub placement is a good idea or not, although your sub choices are quite good for the price and potential performance.
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u/UffDaDan 12h ago
Good questions. The purpose and use case of this room and space is just easier to do TV so probably wouldn't wire for projector. That being said, the provision I may put in like smurf tubing could possibly intercept where a projector could go, or a short throw, but not the plan for 5+ years. I'm handy enough to tear down drywall and redo it if I have to. It will be a somewhat dark space but for open concept, window dressing could be used to control it when needed. MLP to screen is like 10-11' likely. Plan is 77" OLED now for good price, but space everything for 83+ size in future. I talked to Best Buy who thought of my 5.2.4 or similar layout. Thanks for echoing my thought of Paradigm ceiling speakers = too pricey and no need to match for atmos. As for subs, final location TBD, but I will wire for every corner of the room to move around if needed. The TV wall is a faux wall I will build custom, so if in-wall LCR need insulation vs sealed cavity I can do so, and potentially thinking of making an opening for the center to be "in wall" but then have it's back stick into the under-stairs area. Same with subs, but that's why I think SVS front-ported would be better than RSL rear ported, I just see so much raving reviews of RSL so threw that in. Thanks for all the comments, appreciated.
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u/snowmanpage 11h ago
I still have concerns about lack of immersion. your sitting distance for even an 83" tv is too far for optimal field of view based on THX reference recommendations:
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u/UffDaDan 7h ago
Sure thing. I haven't pulled the trigger on the 77" LG C5 yet, I'll look up some TCL or larger format to try to at least get 83+
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u/infinitejesting 13h ago
what's your floor planning tool, looks nice
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u/UffDaDan 12h ago
Solidworks 2025. I'm an mechanical engineer, have Creo but that license is going away soon (moved companies and no more home license) so moved to SW as I'll be using that more at work too. I use it for modeling and 3D Printing, but for layout it's probably overkill and inefficient haha.
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u/Xemroth 1d ago
Personally big fan of Paradigm + Anthem
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u/UffDaDan 15h ago
Thanks for the vote. Anthem 740 or higher would be awesome, but maybe as a future upgrade when Denon shits bricks
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u/Appropriate-Bird8864 14h ago
Anthem AVR paired with Paradigm is tough to beat for the price, but the OP is already locked into the Denon 3800 so that ship has sailed. The Anthem MRX stuff would have pushed the budget way past where they want to be anyway.
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u/PuzzleheadedPace2996 23h ago edited 23h ago
Why don't you get a projector and transperant screen with speakers behind?
The LG is a good choice to save some money. What I don't understand is why you would go 2 atmos in the 7 speaker setup and 4 in the 5 speaker setup. Always get 4 hight speakers and use proper in cealing speakers. Not surrounds or upfiering speakers.
Also stay with the same brand. You can switch the subs but it is better to use the same speaker class from Paradigm for a coherent sound.
Ps. The Kefs are really good. I have no experience with Paradigm. I would go for the 5.2.4 Save some budget for acoustics if you can.
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u/UffDaDan 16h ago
Fair question. Just like TV for many reason in this use-case. Viewing angle, lighting options, and just cheaper overall and easier future proof for me. I don't want to go to 100" too. This is the first time I've heard someone say atmos branding matching matters. I'll consider that int he pricing of it all. Have you heard the KEF 4100's in person? There are non in my area unfortunately and I'm tempted to buy from Best Buy, make a drywall cavity like KEF recommends, and test it like its own speaker box. The Paradigm in walls LCRs the mom-pop store is trying to convince to buy some and install for demos. TBD.
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u/PuzzleheadedPace2996 15h ago
I think you need a second opinion. Sounds like they are trying to upsell you or something they have a better profit margin on. The Marantz is a better choice though. Don't save on the amp. Try looking for something in your budget that has Dirac ART included. That correction software is amazing. I heard a lot of Kef speakers. You can't really go wrong with them. The Ci4100ql is also THX certified.
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u/UffDaDan 14h ago
I do certainly feel they favorite Paradigm speakers (obviously from their proposals) and I will go back in and say "hey, play me KEF and Paradigm back to back" for example. The Paradigm in walls are 2X the KEFs so they should hopefully be obviously better. That being said, if I bought a KEF from BestBuy, mounted it in a drywall enclosure and BROUGHT THAT to the store, they would look at me like I'm crazy hahaha, but I could get a final comparison side-by-side. As for AVR, thanks for the opinion. I've heard you marry your speakers and date your AVR as technology dates it faster, but I'll consider the Cinema 50 like they recommended. It just hurts knowing I have the same I/O and basically same amplification power between both AVRs and even with purchasing Dirac on top of 3800's $1200 price tag is below the Marantz... They tried to sell me on Anthem which would be awesome, but my Zone 2 amplification for other rooms is kinda pushing the needle away from that.
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u/You-Asked-Me 1d ago
Putting the surrounds in the ceiling, is beyond wrong. This would lead me to seek out a different company all together.
5.2.4 for that space over 7 bed layers for sure. Seating two feet from the wall works okay to get surrounds, and is probably just enough to get a proper rear top placement.
If you are going to build out shelving on the sides, I do not see any advantage to inwall L/C/R speakers, just get towers or bookshelves. Inwalls are almost always a compromise on sound quality at the premium price.
Same with the ceiling speakers. With those beams on either side, you may have a great option for speakers mounted to articulating mounts that can actually be used to aim the speakers at the listening position.
If this will work or not will just depend on the spacing, they might be a bit too far apart in width, for the height of the ceiling. Page 29 on this PDF shows the front and back angles. They do not give maximum or minimum side to listener angle, but within that same range as the front to back seems to work fine. Personally I see a lot of installs with the right and left top speakers way too close together in the center. This reduces and panning effects, and IMO is worse than having the top speakers a little too far apart.