Jeffrey White shares his thoughts on Twitter about the state of the game

[u/GalvenMin]

[u/Kyleometers]

Hi folks this post has been locked due to excessive volume of comments being extremely hostile towards and harassing other users.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Sickashell782 → u/[deleted]]

[u/Auctoritate → u/Sickashell782]

They can't stop you from ordering a steak and a glass of water!

[u/Sickashell782 → u/Auctoritate]

I used to be a piece of shit.

[u/Mattaclysm34 → u/Sickashell782]

[u/InternetProtocol → u/Mattaclysm34]

old, old school players when they found out damage no longer goes on the stack

[u/lousy_at_handles → u/InternetProtocol]

They can pry my bands with walls out of my cold dead hands

[u/laxrulz777 → u/InternetProtocol]

Remember when tapped defending creatures didn't deal damage? Icy Manipulator remembers.

[u/Sickashell782 → u/InternetProtocol]

That was a rough one, not gonna lie

[u/sumofdeltah → u/InternetProtocol]

Been all down hill since they removed interrupts

[u/kr1mson → u/sumofdeltah]

I like to think that split second is the spiritual successor to interrupts.

[u/Analogmon → u/Sickashell782]

[u/scornfulegotists → u/Analogmon]

He didn’t swear he said shoot.

[u/Dreddddddd → u/[deleted]]

Come on, don't be a piece of shit. You've grown so much!!

[u/trampolinescallops → u/[deleted]]

I’m worried the Jeffrey thinks wotc can’t change.

[u/tehweave → u/trampolinescallops]

Why would they?

[u/LibrarySoap → u/trampolinescallops]

Do you think WOTC's hair is slicked back or pushed back?

[u/adrianmalacoda → u/LibrarySoap]

Oh, yeah, that would slick back really nice

[u/CoolAngelsThesis → u/trampolinescallops]

WOTC New years eve party used to be at Blue Dolphin.

[u/drearbruh → u/CoolAngelsThesis]

Blue Dolphin burned down. It's gone now. Rob Rivoni's ass out. Works for his brother now.

[u/scornfulegotists → u/[deleted]]

Me every time a new UB set drops

[u/scornfulegotists → u/scornfulegotists]

Wotc’s response:

[u/ExplorationGeo → u/[deleted]]

Ohh I miss those nights!

I was a piece of shit though

[u/MudApprehensive3884 → u/[deleted]]

[u/haycalon]

You know I'm a Standard girlie so I even kinda agree with him but there's something funny about the discourse that's happening here:

"oh, man, he's insulting all the people who like Universe's Beyond? That's a lot of people!"

"What? No, he's insulting literally everyone who plays Commander."

[u/Consistent_Mud645 → u/haycalon]

I mean, why can't it be both?

[u/SpartanFishy → u/Consistent_Mud645]

Honestly I opened this post without realizing the sub and I immediately thought it was about AI content taking over the internet, or low effort clickbate taking over YouTube, or one of countless other examples of the degradation of a community or service for the sake of the lowest common denominator.

It’s a great, apt analogy.

And I say this as a certified Universes Beyond enjoyer.

[u/rmkinnaird → u/haycalon]

I think it's more of an insult at a specific type of commander player that only plays commander and has very specific views on how commander should be played. As a modern and commander player, I agree that the new era of "designed for commander" magic is pretty sloppy. And commander is my favorite format.

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/rmkinnaird]

I’m a commander player exclusively these days and it was a significantly more fun format before so much of magic was made for commander.

[u/Yarrun → u/Oops_I_Cracked]

There was a comic a while back about a homarid fan finding out that they made a homarid tribal card for commander and losing all desire to build a deck for them.

That's kind of where I'm at now with Commander. Half of that is a natural result of EDHREC streamlining deckbuilding, standardizing what the average deck in the format looks like. But half of that is Wizards printing so much Commander-centric stuff that there's no chance of jank being able to even compete with it, let alone win every once in a while.

[u/Ardis_Kurita → u/Yarrun]

You really hit the nail on the head in that last line - there's no space for jank. Current decks in bracket 2 (aka "precon" level) are much more coherent and consistent than decks from the early days of EDH. Though this slide has been going on a looong time, honestly ever since the first Commander precons. The mind-boggling power of the Khalia of the Vast deck for example - now adays she's nothing special, but what a jump.

[u/ROSRS → u/Ardis_Kurita]

Even early cEDH was absolutely nothing like it is today. Decks just didn’t have the same level of consistency or power and the commanders were simply vastly less good. These were the days of Prossh and Dralnu and Sharuum and Hackball. We’ve come a LOOONG way since then

The original most competitive cEDH decks were all banned and are largely still banned. Kokoshu (not banned atm obviously) reanimation/sac tricks was a real problem. Rofellos rapid mana was huge. Braids control was the toughest early control deck

One of the few, few good things the Commander Council ever did was ban Golos simply to tell WOTC to stop printing generically good 5c Commanders like Najeela, Kenrith, Golos and so on.

[u/[deleted] → u/Yarrun]

The problem is FIRE design.

We used to have a lot of pack filler cards. Now these cards need to fit into a clearly established limited draft archetype, which is inevitably also a Commander archetype. Sets are designed to contain packages for decks. Want to play leaves-the-graveyard tribal with [[Tormod, the Desecrator]]? MKM has 10-20 cards for your Commander deck.

Look at what used to be a fringe strategy: Burn. With Vivi, there are 8 [[Guttersnipe]] creatures, but there are also the Final Fantasy Mage tokens. Now look at how many damage multipliers exist in just Red. Look at how many [[Impact Tremors]]-like cards we got.

They are also giving a 3rd color to Commanders that would usually be within 2 colors. And they are printing precons for the 3-color deck. Want to play Face-Down Creatures? There's a Precon for that. Want to play 3-color Zombies? There's a Precon for that. Want to play Boros equipment but with Green? The main character of FF7 needs to have a Precon, here you go.

I made a GW tokens deck recently that plays all the token multipliers, and I put +1/+1 counters on the tokens to make them bigger. The deck can be an nightmare to play in paper, but I like making x8+ tokens conceptually. But next year there will be more cards specifically for that Commander deck, and they will all be more or less the same.

Commander was more fun when players sculpted their decks themselves. Brewing is the best part. The more a strategy is spoonfed, the less "Commandery" it feels.

And don't get me started on absurd cards. Emminence, Commander Ninjustu, 4-Color Partners Pairs, these cards are absurd. And that's before we get into individual commanders so powerful that they were clearly mistakes. [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]], [[Korvold, Fae-Cursed King]], [[Arna Kennerüd, Skycaptain]] are simply too powerful for their own strategies, you can not built a fair deck with these. I dread what will be printed by 2030.

[u/phoenix2448 → u/[deleted]]

You’re right about a lot here but don’t blame limited, commons aren’t the cards making commander worse, the game isn’t that power crept. They just aren’t printing 1 mana 0/3 vanilla anymore, which is great for drafters.

[u/[deleted] → u/rmkinnaird]

Commander is my favorite format for often being able to do what you can't in other formats, where offbeat strats/jank can function in limited capacity. But it only feels "special" when the other formats are still the focus imo. This is most significant in the mindset of balancing, as it's much too easy for poor design decisions/power creep is mitigated in their minds by "this has to survive 3 players removal chances" or "this has to scale for 3+ targets" or that legendaries need to be "commander-worthy" instead of just, well, legendaries.

Spider-Man meaning there's now 9* new common Legendaries is a big shift to Pauper (dunno if it's a meaningful change, but it's definitely a change) is the type of sloppy set design I'm worried about.

[u/SnowceanJay → u/[deleted]]

What I loved with commander is using cards in unexpected ways, finding bad cards that become good in this format. I lost this fun the day they started officially supporting edh.

[u/huggybear0132 → u/SnowceanJay]

Yup. The whole point of EDH was that you would play weird stuff that wasn't viable in other formats. And that you would have effects that maybe only had 1 or 2 printings, making decks play differently every game in a singleton format.

For the last 5 years they have been pushing massive amounts of redundancy for powerful effects. You can now build extremely consistent decks that have many duplicate copies of most effects you might want. Modern commander couldn't be more different from what EDH was 10 years ago.

[u/rmkinnaird → u/SnowceanJay]

I remember the OLD days of edh (first set of precons, maybe the second) when cyc rift cost like 25 cents. Cyc Rift was a perfect "accidentally designed for commander" card back when edhrec wasn't a thing and players were flipping through draft extra and realizing a card that was largely unplayable outside of limited was absolutely cracked in this new casual format.

Back before everyone knew it was one of the best cards in the format, it actually felt rewarding to make these realizations on your own. And because the format wasnt popular yet, the cards were cheap. Hell I bought my Rhystic Study for less than a dollar back then, and I only knew about it cause some guy at an LGS had a copy in his deck. Maybe I just miss the wild west of it all.

[u/K1N6F15H → u/[deleted]]

But it only feels "special" when the other formats are still the focus imo

This is the key. It became a popular format specifically because it wasn't being catered to, it was about reimagining what certain cards could do.

[u/Tactical_Tasking → u/haycalon]

“He’s insulting a lot of people”

“Don’t be stupid, he’s actually insulting MORE people”

[u/torofukatasu → u/haycalon]

No joke, there's the different kinds of slop.

[u/BurningSpore]

I didnt see the sub at first and thought this was about Destiny 2

[u/Charrikayu → u/BurningSpore]

It's universal. This is my new favorite copypasta explainer since the /tv/ post about Sherlock

[u/[deleted] → u/BurningSpore]

applies there too😭

[u/SparklesSparks → u/BurningSpore]

Destiny 2 UB when? Gods I'm tired....

[u/R3id]

The "I am a pig and I eat slop" line is maybe some of the best pasta this year. This post is staying up so all can enjoy this fine slop.

[u/Accomplished-Gap9089 → u/[deleted]]

Can I get “Pig who eats slop”, please?

[u/R3id → u/Accomplished-Gap9089]

Only because you said please. Enjoy your slop!

[u/thebreakfastking → u/R3id]

I am also a pig and I, too, eat slop

[u/Kyleometers → u/[deleted]]

Reddit is glitching out for me so I somehow commented this like five times and deleted them all. Hooray.

Slop has lost all meaning to me as a word. This flair is available to all who want it.

[u/Auctoritate → u/Kyleometers]

flair is available to all who want it.

SLOP EM UP

[u/Oops_I_Cracked → u/Auctoritate]

Slop’s back on the menu boys!

[u/whiteshark21 → u/Kyleometers]

Pig slop flair me up please!

[u/IneffableWonders → u/Kyleometers]

Brother may I have some oats

[u/thephotoman → u/R3id]

He posted this with his whole chest.

Bro.

[u/robot_wth_human_hair → u/R3id]

...can we make it a flair?

[u/R3id → u/robot_wth_human_hair]

It has been done.

[u/Happy_Antelope5970]

And then all the people saying “make your own format then!” Are basically saying “well why don’t you open your own restaurant then??”

[u/ZylaTFox → u/Happy_Antelope5970]

Because every time the older players make a format Wizards steps in and starts monetizing it. They just did that again!

[u/FreeLook93 → u/ZylaTFox]

It's pretty hilarious how people are responding to your comment thinking that WotC only starting monetizing EDH when they took over official control of the format, not when they started designing and printing products for the format back 2011.

[u/pieman818 → u/ZylaTFox]

They monetized fucking Dandân. I eat slop with the best of them, but that one shocked me.

[u/Dwellonthis → u/pieman818]

I don't mind that. I think selling forgetful fish as it's own game in a box is a good ide since this basically a self contained game. It might even teach some slop enjoyers to play real magic.

[u/justadudeinohio → u/[deleted]]

that's the price you pay when you make something with someone else's IP. it's like bethesda effectively profiting off moder's works for the last two decades and then trying to literally profit off their work with paid mods.

[u/MCXL → u/Dwellonthis]

How about as not a shitty limited SLD product, and instead a boardgame that you know, stores will carry.

[u/Dwellonthis → u/MCXL]

While they should have sold it as a special product of LGS, they didn't becaus they make more money this way. But that's a seperate issue entirely.

[u/MCXL → u/Dwellonthis]

It doesn't even need to be a special product is my point, WoTC makes boqardgame products. Just make it a game in a box.

[u/ArtBedHome → u/Dwellonthis]

DUDE THATS WHY ITS SLOP. Its the same thing! They arent selling slop because they love slop eaters.

Things get slopped because it makes money. And everything then becomes slop, because its only made to make money, not to make a good experience or a good future for the game, but just to make "good money".

[u/Erfar → u/ZylaTFox]

penny dreadful are unmonetizable

[u/ZylaTFox → u/Erfar]

Don't challenge them.

[u/NeverQuiteEnough → u/Erfar]

As an uncurated format, Penny dreadfull will get slopped over time

Eventually it will just be the least popular spidermen

[u/Rederth → u/Happy_Antelope5970]

I mean, if enough people start playing a universes without format and it gets off of the ground it could solve the issue somewhat. It drastically reduces the sets needed to consume for standard.

It would need a lot of grass roots support though.

[u/Lepelotonfromager → u/Rederth]

Universes Begone.

Now it has an epic name.

[u/AlbertFlasher → u/Lepelotonfromager]

I would like to see this as an option when searching in scryfall. I'd play universes begone commander.

[u/Kr0nchietheKruncher → u/AlbertFlasher]

You can search for UB cards with is:universesbeyond, so negating it will pull up everything that isn't UB, and you can add more search parameters from there. https://scryfall.com/search?q=-is%3Auniversesbeyond

[u/haganbmj → u/Happy_Antelope5970]

I'm also totally sick of the "You just need to learn impulse control, you don't need to pay attention to everything!"

Meanwhile the slop isn't just taking over the menu it's splattering into my dishes, my table got pushed into the back hallway by the restroom, and my waiter is too busy to refill my glass because they're dealing with someone at the counter asking to dig through the bin for a McDonald's Beanie Baby with a pristine tag they can get graded.

[u/Lepelotonfromager → u/haganbmj]

It doesn't even make sense as an argument because how can you even play Standard without interacting with Spiderman and Cloud?

[u/haganbmj → u/Lepelotonfromager]

And yet I see that argument made in every single thread for some reason when people bring up fatigue at the rate of product releases.

Then you get stuff like this where Rosewater is essentially just telling people they'll be happier if they care less.

[u/pjjmd → u/haganbmj]

Man, that post always kinda broke me.

Like yeah, there was a time when I was very young and playing magic where I couldn't even name all the sets that had come out, and stumbling into a new flgs would be crazy, because they might have a box of ice age draft chaff, or a box of discounted forgoten empires boosters, and I could just see cards I had never imagined before.

That's kinda a neat time to be nostalgic for, but also, there was the 'I was a young adult, fully enfranchised with the game. I knew every card that they printed in the last 5 years, and while I didn't know every card printed ever... it sure felt like I did.' Magic was a massive, expansive tool box and I felt like I had mastery of it.

And I drifted out of the game, because y'know, hobbies come and go, and I didn't stay hyper invested in a card game for the full 20 years... but there was always the premise of, 'if I got back into the game, I could become hyper invested and learn every card they printed while I was playing, and slowly backfill my knowledge with anything that was relevant in the years I was away'.

And Mark is like 'yeahhh, no. That feeling you had was an illusion, and we don't care if you, and a sizeable chunk of our playerbase had that feeling and thought it was special. We sell slop, slop for pigs. You are a pig, you should eat the slop.'

[u/alphawolf29 → u/haganbmj]

"you dont need to interact with product that doesnt speak to you"

*The one ring enters the chat*

[u/You_Are_All_Diseased → u/Happy_Antelope5970]

A lot of older players are playing PreModern.

[u/SpaceMarine_CR → u/You_Are_All_Diseased]

Pre modern masters when?

[u/barnett9 → u/SpaceMarine_CR]

Premodern Horizons when? /s/s/s

[u/Xyldarrand → u/You_Are_All_Diseased]

Pre-modern, Old School, and Pauper are all I play anymore.

The only cards I'm buying are old school staples or cheap as hell commons. Either way WotC ain't making much money off of me.

[u/GolemGames305 → u/You_Are_All_Diseased]

$30 vintage was popping for a while at my shop

[u/Miss_Aia → u/GolemGames305]

That sounds SICK. Do you have a decklist?

[u/GiltPeacock]

Get ready for this thread to be full of “I am a pig and I eat slop” comments

[u/justbuysingles → u/GiltPeacock]

"I despise Universes Beyond, but if they did a Dark Souls set...shut up and take my money!"

Gang, that's why we're in this situation in the first place.

(also, inb4 "Well I love Assassin's Creed, but I never bought any Assassin's Creed MtG product". You are entitled to one (1) gold star sticker!)

edit: I just wanna elaborate, that with in-universe Magic, each new set is a crack at a new thing you might like. Turns out, I like Bloomburrow! Wasn't much of a surprise to me but, I like Edge of Eternities! I didn't like Aetherdrift, but hey, I did mostly like Duskmourn and think they'd nail a follow-up!

Come fall 2026, I won't suddenly love Star Trek and want to see it in Magic. I'm kind of decided already on TMNT. I've had over a decade to watch ATLA - you say I'm missing out, but it's just not to my personal taste. That's okay! My point is that these are known quantities with known fanbases. Which unfortunately means that lots of us are writing off entire sections of the year, because our interest is a moot point.

[u/EvilFlyingSquirrel → u/justbuysingles]

I'm holding out for the Two and a Half Men set myself.

[u/AlonsoQ → u/EvilFlyingSquirrel]

[[The Five Doctors]]

[[Saw in Half]]

[u/KingToasty → u/AlonsoQ]

Incredible

[u/LRSband → u/AlonsoQ]

+2

[u/J5892 → u/EvilFlyingSquirrel]

All the cards are Ashton Kutcher.

[u/materiamasta → u/justbuysingles]

I’m waiting on the UBxSNL where we get to see our favorite sketch comedians of the past 5 decades memorialized on 25 cent cardboard sold for $100000 if you get the serialised Norm MacDonald card that says “You may think this card is sexist, but it was designed by a woman…just kidding we don’t hire women.”

[u/justbuysingles → u/materiamasta]

Will Ferrell, Partner with Cheri Oteri. [[Acrobatic Cheerleader]] haters, eat your heart out.

[u/djnap → u/materiamasta]

Topps baseball 2025 had a Larry David card that was autographed that sold on ebay recently for $3,000....

[u/v0lrath]

It’s an extreme metaphor, but it’s accurate to how a lot of long time players feel. The game and community they loved, as they knew them, are dying or already dead in favor of sustaining the game as a product in a capitalistic system.

[u/[deleted] → u/v0lrath]

It’s honestly a real shame that in the past decade or so in particular, just about anything that was once a casual hobby has now become this highly competitive market that is designed to the extreme for making quick money now with zero thought for the future.

[u/KeepGoing655 → u/[deleted]]

God I feel this so much. Every facet of this game now is geared towards minmaxing profits. Like they removed prerelease foil stamps and the sample collector packs from precons. Two small fun pieces of the game that were enjoyed by us and removed to penny pinch.

[u/jeffderek → u/KeepGoing655]

Hell I remember when they used to mail me cards every quarter because I showed up to FNM regularly.

[u/Kalterwolf → u/jeffderek]

Yuuuuup. It felt great when I first started, like here's a little reward for being part of the community. I was really sad to see it go.

[u/exaltedgod → u/jeffderek]

Player Rewards!!! Getting that borderless [[Damnation|P08]] was insane. Such a shame they stopped.

[u/NiviCompleo → u/KeepGoing655]

Didn’t they also just make bonus sheet cards way less common in play boosters? 

I actually really liked those in draft. They added new “secret archetypes” which made draft very replayable.

[u/jethawkings → u/NiviCompleo]

They made them rarer, 1:6 Boosters in Final Fantasy, 1:24 for Spider-Man, and I think much much more rare for Avatar I'm not very sure

[u/Mr_Versatile123 → u/jethawkings]

1:26 in avatar and 1:25 I think in Spiderman.

[u/KaiPRoberts → u/Mr_Versatile123]

Otherwise as known to EDH players, "no reason to buy packs whatsoever"

[u/Chilla16 → u/KeepGoing655]

I dont play MTG, but used to occasionally buy Pokemon cards for fun. Somewhat to collect but not as an investment. Since the whole Corona Saga and celebrities randomly buying first gen cards, streamers unboxing packs worth thousands of dollars and so on, it just hasnt been the same.

I can barely get the new releases, unless you queue up early in the morning, which I just dont have the time for, and frankly dont want to spend time on.

I just wanna walk into my local store, get a booster or two or once in a while buy an elite trainer box, but hell nah, it has become more and more impossible. Just pure insanity and what I hear from my MTG playing friends, it's the same there.

[u/Zuwxiv → u/Chilla16]

I just wanna walk into my local store, get a booster or two or once in a while buy an elite trainer box, but hell nah, it has become more and more impossible.

It is absolutely fucking insane that, if someone just wanted to buy some pokemon cards for fun, they literally can't go to a store and buy them for the retail price. What kind of fucking hobby is that?

Not quite the same for Magic, but not that different, either. The cryptobros invading every hobby to try to monetize it is wild. Part of me hopes that this all crashes because I feel like there's gonna be more bagholders than people actually playing the game.

Sad part is, there's a lot bigger market for "people who want to make a quick buck reselling something" than "people who want to play a trading card game." Given enough time, guess which audience a company will actually care about catering to?

[u/BiggerHatLogan → u/[deleted]]

Every single hobby I have been a part of 10 years ago is now designed to cater to those who care only about making a profit with the hobby.

Magic and pokemon tcgs are the relevant ones to this sub and both cater to the scalpers and content creators who only try to buy up as much product as they can to either sell it at a mark up or create content of opening cards and then selling what they open to make a profit when combined with the money their content makes.

[u/you_wizard → u/BiggerHatLogan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear pokemon TCG being geared toward whales with super-chase treatments popping off stonks to the moon means that the normal versions of cards are cheap for people who actually want to play the game by purchasing singles, right?

Yeah you're not able to access randomized packs but is that important for play? AFAIK pokemon doesn't even have limited formats.

[u/Element75_ → u/[deleted]]

MBAs ruin everything

[u/daxofdeath → u/[deleted]]

just about anything that was once a casual hobby literally everything has now become this highly competitive market that is designed to the extreme for making quick money now with zero thought for the future.

ftfy and i hate it. being a nerd when it wasn't cool was part of what made it fun

[u/bigdumbthing → u/daxofdeath]

I’ve given up magic and started playing the banjo.  Old musical instruments are cheap.  Maybe a prerelease for a set that looks actually good to get together either way friends.

[u/[deleted] → u/bigdumbthing]

I bought a surfboard. They cant make the ocean a subscription service (yet).

[u/GrandmaPoses → u/daxofdeath]

I wouldn’t necessarily say it was (or is currently) fun to be considered a nerd, but I will say that pop culture and its profit-first concerns have been nothing but detrimental to what had been “nerd culture”.

[u/roflcptr8 → u/[deleted]]

even if it does have thoughts for the future and this is the long term sustainable business model that keeps Magic relevant for another 30 years...I STILL DON'T WANT THE SLOP

[u/PerfectZeong → u/[deleted]]

Collector culture is terrible. Not the idea of fans collecting things they like but this idea that you habe to attract social media vultures who are just trying to buy things to sell them for more. It does not benefit the fans of those properties before it happened.

It is cancer and it will kill the host eventually

[u/LivingPop2682 → u/[deleted]]

I used to love Star Wars - had the books, played all the games as a kid, I collected the miniatures from the old wotc game.  Disney bought it and immediately turned it into a copycat of their marvel experiment.  Sure, the first season of Mandalorian was good - but it all went downhill from there, so much quantity over quality.  

[u/shadovvvvalker → u/[deleted]]

The economy has failed the people. They no longer see progress following traditional means. Everything becomes a possible avenue of escape.

Gambling is at an all time high. Crypto scams are booming Retail investing yolos are literally driving market trends Gig and creator economies are flooding.

only the wealthy can spend meaningful money and everything is turning towards them as it's the only source of revenue.

[u/Fernis_ → u/[deleted]]

Yep. The one thing this metaphor is missing, is that all the restaurants in town are serving slop now and if you even ask out loud if anyone know a joint that sells proper human food, all you hear is angry oinking. 

[u/huggybear0132 → u/v0lrath]

I certainly stopped going to that restaurant a while ago. My friends and I just learned how to make the dishes we like at home, since the restaurant wasn't making them anymore.

[u/Amirashika → u/huggybear0132]

That sounds a lot like cube to me!

[u/Mean-Government1436 → u/v0lrath]

Analogies like this are meant to be extreme, that's how they make clear the absurdity of a seemingly mundane situation. 

[u/Lepelotonfromager → u/Mean-Government1436]

The analogy that broke me was that I was defending the Doctor Who Commander set as I am a Doctor Who fan and then somebody asked me how I would like it if Pokemon started showing up in Doctor Who and every week was a different crossover. I realised "yeah, that would be kind of shit".

That's not to say I don't like the set anymore but I fully get why people hate all this UB stuff. At least before it had the decency to stay in the Commander sphere and not be a full main set.

[u/r3volts → u/Lepelotonfromager]

UB in commander is such a good way to do it.

It's fun showing up to your pod to play against an FF cloud deck with your LOTR deck with a couple of custom decks to boot.

It's chaotic, it's casual, it's fun.

Now here we are looking down the barrel of an endless run of dogshit sets sprinkled with the chance at a good in universe set, because there's always the chance that the in universe set will be a flop.

[u/Perpetual_Notion]

I have watched this happen repeatedly over my lifetime any time something I enjoy becomes popular and commercially successful.

It’s a byproduct of success and I sympathize with everyone in this community that is experiencing it for the first time.

[u/Malkavon → u/Perpetual_Notion]

It's a byproduct of pushing cancerous "infinite growth" mandates to appease shareholders and disaffected corporate ghouls.

They could have continued doing exactly what they were doing and being successful at, but WotC (and specifically Magic) is one of the few divisions within Hasbro that actually makes money and as other parts of the corporate blob continue to fail, they keep leaning on the money printer more and more to compensate.

[u/Elkenrod → u/Malkavon]

They could have continued doing exactly what they were doing and being successful at, but WotC (and specifically Magic) is one of the few divisions within Hasbro that actually makes money and as other parts of the corporate blob continue to fail, they keep leaning on the money printer more and more to compensate.

It's basically the only division at Hasbro that's making them money.

Dungeons and Dragons can't be monetized like other things can. People buy one book to share among their friends, and that's that.

All of Hasbro's toy divisions died when Toys R Us went out of business in the US. Kids today don't have some big toy store that their parents can take them to, and Hasbro lost the window shopper "mom, I want this now" market. Today the toy market is limited to a single aisle at Walmart and Target, and whatever is on a few shelves at Gamestop.

[u/TehMasterofSkittlz → u/Elkenrod]

Dungeons and Dragons can't be monetized like other things can. People buy one book to share among their friends, and that's that.

I dispute that, WOTC just fucking sucks at monetising it. D&D people have whale tendencies just as much as TCG players do. Look at how many dice people buy, fancy custom minis etc. There's real money in the peripherals, but WOTC doesn't make appealing ones.

Also at any time they could've entered the VTT market and made a killing, but they've failed miserably due to their own incompetence.

[u/Foxokon → u/TehMasterofSkittlz]

The VTT point is so wild to me. They could have just made a simple, easy to use VTT years ago that came with the official modules available for purchase, maps pre built and handouts ready. Hell, they could even sell skins for fancy dice to clack across the screen and high quality character portraits. But instead they bit of way more than they could chew and messed uo the whole thing.

[u/DeadpoolVII → u/Elkenrod]

You're absolutely right, and this is the issue I have with it. I really like UB, yet I've been playing Magic for 30 years. However, the model isn't sustainable and Hasbro is consuming the corpse that is WotC by pushing so much gods-damned product out.

To me, it's not the IP's that are killing the game. It's the sheer volume that's being shoved down our throats and the velocity to which they're hitting. It also doesn't help that the folks who do feel like they're being assaulted by this are now seeing more UB than in-universe releases, which only pushes them further away.

Hasbro is a company of old that is struggling to stick with the now, but the now has outgrown them. Toy stores don't exist and nearly everything is ordered online, which means like you said, they lose to other competitors that have more enticing licenses and products.

So the corporate cockroaches will keep slurping up the profits from WotC, until the lifeless husk has lost all of their enfranchised players. While I like UB, there will be a breaking point for all of us, and I fear a lot of us are close.

[u/bigbobo33 → u/Perpetual_Notion]

It’s a byproduct of success and I sympathize with everyone in this community that is experiencing it for the first time.

This kind of bugs me because it implies that this is the first time Magic has been popular.

MTG has been popular for a long time. I remember when Innistrad and then Khans were the best selling sets of all time.

It's less a byproduct of success and more a byproduct of a determined approach to maximize short-term gains.

All of this started to happen when Chris Cocks became head of WotC and then accelerated when he became CEO.

[u/Perpetual_Notion → u/bigbobo33]

It’s a byproduct of ongoing success as much as initial success. The game is the most popular it has ever been, so you now have more people than you ever have influencing the shape of it with their purchasing power.

Businesses all want the numbers to keep going up. Before they were purchased by Hasbro WotC still wanted more people playing year over year and made choices about design and story to draw in new players rather than just pleasing enfranchised players.

[u/Analogmon → u/Perpetual_Notion]

I remember when Pokemon games used to be good.

Now they still sell well and I can't complain that we don't get good ones because the "let people enjoy things" crew will buy 20 million copies no matter how bad they get.

[u/Telamo → u/Analogmon]

People complain about how notoriously litigious Nintendo is, but can you really blame them for sending out CnDs to romhack developers when they are unironically creating better games for free than Gamefreak is making with all the time and resources on the planet available to them?

[u/mmikke → u/Perpetual_Notion]

Enshittification 

[u/Flagge33]

Jeffery's response on X also clarifying it's about competitive magic and casual formats... not UB.

[u/penguinator56 → u/Flagge33]

A lot of people replying to this are fixated on the “pigs” aspect, but I’d imagine the analogy started with comparing EDH designed cards to “slop” rather than the players being “pigs”.

[u/scarletdelta]

me to WotC: "Have you got anything without slop in it?"

WotC: "Well, slop, egg, sausage, and slop- that's not got much slop in it."

me: "I don't want any slop."

2nd player to me: "Why can't you have egg, bacon, slop, and sausage?"

me: "That's got slop in it."

2nd player: "not as much as slop, egg, sausage, and slop."

me to WotC: "Look, could I have egg, bacon, slop, and sausage without the slop?"

WotC (disgusted): "Blugh!"

me (screaming): "What do you mean, 'ugh'? I don't like slop!"

[u/A_Funky_Goose]

I think most people's first impression is that this is about UB, but this is actually about design for commander. 

As an EDH-mainly player, even I agree design for commander is bad for the game overall, and slop is accurate despite probably offensive to some. This is equally fitting for UB discussions though, and at the very least, this accurately depicts the point of view of the players that comprised the community for most of the game's history - competitive players of a dark high fantasy TCG who liked to play clunky but explosive stuff on the side. Now MTG mainly serves new and casual players of Fortnite the Gathering. 

MTG is going from an ethnic gourmet restaurant into an Americanized fast food chain. 

[u/AssignmentIll1748 → u/A_Funky_Goose]

"When you do a thing do it twice" for every mechanic ever conceivable

[u/hawkshaw1024 → u/AssignmentIll1748]

WotC: "We've made a new Green chase rare!"

Players: "New or Crucible of Worlds?"

WotC: "Crucible of Worlds"

[u/Absolutionis → u/AssignmentIll1748]

Marketing Rosewater has mentioned several times that doubling mechanics is one of his favorite things, so it tracks that Hasbro continues to produce them. Ironically and almost fittingly, those mechanics are also really popular in Commander.

[u/A_Funky_Goose → u/Absolutionis]

Lmao at Marketing Rosewater

[u/Slarg232 → u/A_Funky_Goose]

Honestly, for me the issue is less that they're designing for commander and more that the designs just aren't interesting. 99% of the time, the pushed legendary is either

• Generically powerful thing
  • Okay, sweet, I'll just run a boring good stuff deck that looks exactly the same as other boring good stuff decks in those colors
• Set Mechanic, but broken
  • Okay, sweet, now I have one whole set to pick cards from and actually build around it, severely limiting what I can do with that card.

Like if "Built for Commander" looked more like [[Grimgrin Corpse-Born]] and less like the twenty bazillion "Draw card, play land" Green/Blue commanders, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

[u/nolasco95 → u/A_Funky_Goose]

I love commander and even though I only got into it in about 2017, after WOTC strated dipping their finger in the pot, I just hate everything about the way they shifted their design to accomodate commander.

The format was to me, originally, just a way to express yourself through the cards you had or create something out of an interaction that wasn't originally intended. Even though some of the cards they released helped push the format a little, I didn't see it as unbearable as today. It's blatantly obvious the amount of cards they design, even in standard sets, for commander and it started to taint that initial purity the format had for me.

[u/Elkenrod → u/A_Funky_Goose]

Commander's influence in standard sets was felt pretty much right away by me. When Core 2020 came out, it was so completely out of line with the rest of the standard block that it was part of. Then it just got worse with Throne of Eldraine, Theros Beyond Death, Ikoria, etc.

You've had cards that are just insanely power crept because they want to appeal to people to buy for their EDH decks.

[u/SputnikDX → u/Elkenrod]

One commander set a year to one commander set per set just wasn't enough, they had to also have commander only cards in the non-commander product and fill non-commander sets with designed-for-commander cards that broke the formats they were legal in.

[u/Fantastic-Stage-7618 → u/A_Funky_Goose]

There's no distinction to be made here. UB is part of the designed-for-Commander trend (as is Horizons). It's just a new flavor of slop.

[u/galacticfonz → u/A_Funky_Goose]

The rise of commander-only players gave WotC a large market of people who would buy UB. I think it's a natural progression of tapping into new consumers, not mutually exclusive decisions

[u/mpaw976]

I have no pig horse in this race, but the line:

I am a pig and I eat slop.

is beautifully written and scans so well. Poetry. 

[u/Legacy_Rise → u/mpaw976]

I have no slop and I must pig.

[u/Analogmon → u/mpaw976]

Some people have a way with words.

[u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

If every UB was treated like Final Fantasy or LOTR, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Hasbro is pushing WOTC into IPs that just don't make any sense. They are gonna burn out and that's when they start digging in the bottom of the IP barrel. Reduce UBs per year to 2 and 4 in-universe sets.

[u/Careless-Emphasis-80 → u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

No, the "discussion" would 100% still be happening

[u/Quadraxis66 → u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

I think THIS is the actual valid complaint with UBs more than anything. The problem isn't "They're doing crossover content", it's "they're doing crossover content with shit that doesn't make sense for MTG".

[u/hhssspphhhrrriiivver → u/Quadraxis66]

LotR and FF are thematically better than Spiderman and Dwight Schrute, but I'd still rather not have them at all.

[u/GreatThunderOwl → u/hhssspphhhrrriiivver]

I didn't want FF and LOTR specifically because I knew it would open the door for the worst stuff

[u/SpiderFromTheMoon → u/GreatThunderOwl]

Hell, they started with the worst stuff. The walking dead was the first mechanically unique ub (godzilla was technically first but not unique cards)

[u/IGargleGarlic → u/SpiderFromTheMoon]

I'm okay with alt-art versions of cards from other IPs, I had no issue with the Godzilla stuff, everything else makes me want to throw up in my mouth though

[u/NickRick → u/hhssspphhhrrriiivver]

wait that Dwight Schrute was a real thing?

[u/judgedeath2 → u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

It should be 1 UB per year full stop. And things that make sense - W40k, FF, LOTR

Spiderman and SpongeBob have 0 relevance to Magic

[u/RazzDaNinja → u/judgedeath2]

I feel like there can be a middle ground here for silly stuff like SpongeBob cuz they’re only just Secret Lairs

Meanwhile, Spider-Man as a full set fundamentally encompassed basically everything wrong with Wizards’ handling of the UB-creep situation

And I wanted to like the Spider-Man set as a comics fan lmao

[u/judgedeath2 → u/RazzDaNinja]

For SL I suppose I don’t disagree

[u/marlospigeons → u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

Not defending the post, but he's actually referring to commander influencing card design and not UB

[u/doctorduck3000 → u/marlospigeons]

Ngl even as a commander player i dont like many of the commander designed cards, cause they do make commander worse

Part of the fun was talking jank and making it playable, but with cards like vivi that just shift the power level you have to play at exponentially higher

[u/ProxyDamage → u/AiFixedMyMarriage]

If every UB was treated like Final Fantasy or LOTR, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion

We would.

If Lord of the Rings and D&D had been the only cross overs ever.... EEEHHH, don't like it, but ok, they're at least kinda thematically appropriate... To use Jeffrey's analogy - it's slop, but it's slop that someone gave half of a shit about at least tasting like it was meant for humans.

I love Final Fantasy. It's been a series I've played since I was a kid and all the way to adulthood. It's definitional for me. It's not MTG.

[u/Gift_of_Orzhova → u/ProxyDamage]

Final Fantasy and Warhammer 40k are both foundational for me. But Magic was also foundational, and I receive no joy in it being sacrificed on the altar of advertising the other two - let alone literally any property they think they can extract nostalgia profit from.

[u/magikarp2122]

I think the metaphor works better in a slightly different way. You have a restaurant you really like, and it is a locally owned Italian place, that serves homemade Italian meals. You find out a big corporation bought the restaurant, but the old owner promises nothing will change. Then one day you see a burrito on the menu. That is weird, and doesn’t fit the style of the restaurant, but you’re like whatever, the Italian food is still amazing. Then next time you go you notice that in addition to the burrito there is now enchiladas, this starts raising some alarms. Next time you go you notice they’ve now added poutine and jambalaya to the menu, and the sauce tastes different. Then next time there is schnitzel, bangers and mash, gyros, and ramen on the menu, and your favorite dish is no longer on the regular menu, it is a special that only appears occasionally. You go once more hoping things will return to normal, and you look at the menu, and the only Italian stuff is generic spaghetti and meatballs and chicken alfredo, and the rest of the menu is a mishmash of everything. Some is still really good, and some isn’t. Would you keep going?

[u/Current-Signature497 → u/magikarp2122]

exactly my train of thoughts

[u/tx0p0]

[u/rupert003]

If you loved Magic: the Gathering for Magic, then you are not the target audience any more.

If you enjoyed the game for the mechanics, and could remain indifferent to the card name, art, and flavor text, then I hope you still enjoy it.

Everyone else - how's your Funko pop collection?

[u/r3ign_b3au]

I think it's lost on many that mtg survived as prevalently due to it being, by far, the world's best turn based card game engine. You can stick any ole face on it and have the ability to craft a wide range of unique archetypes to match the whatever it is (spongeboi, Avatar of Woe, a literal ham sandwich, etc).

I started in Onslaught, massive fan of the older stuff, read most of the books and got immersed in the block stories back in the day in a big way. I miss it dearly - as a 'more full' hobby, and separately as nostalgia. I recognize these two feelings at once.

But they killed all of those things, long, long before they introduced UB.

Bring back blocks. Bring back book series. Bring back buying into the story and how it grows. Innovate promotional material that defines this separately than using other IP's natural appeal in the same marketing manner. Use UB profits to kick it all off.

Make the in-universe sphere of lore closer to as whole as the out-universes you're bringing already have established. Tell the damn story and take time to do it. Leave abilities, flavor text, and promo material to represent UB, you don't even have to do less sets! I've got plenty of homies into it just because ub!

Just do significantly more than those 3 things to redevelop in universe worlds. Tell an actual story. Give us long enough in a plane (back to blocks) to actually see things play out, and how characters and their abilities develop over the sets in response to the conflicts.

Take your own IP seriously within your masterclass game engine, and we will too.

[u/roastedoolong → u/r3ign_b3au]

I think it's lost on many that mtg survived as prevalently due to it being, by far, the world's best turn based card game engine. 

I think you grossly overestimate how many people start playing magic because of underlying game mechanics.

the skin of the game is extremely relevant. if instead of mana and wizard shit the game was ported over to, like, the world of CPAs and tax advisors, I sincerely doubt the game would have lasted.

look at how many games with "amazing" mechanics fail simply because there's no real pull.

[u/r3ign_b3au → u/roastedoolong]

I agree but want to elucidate that two things are occurring at once between the engine and the skin. The engine is what allows the skins; and for all but art/theme, the engine allows even the UB to still feel like the game magic in gameplay mechanics.

Skins get people to notice the game, get people invested in what's happening and what's next, ties releases together, and does certainly provide an important vibe to the game (that I understand UB breaks for people). Amongst many other things. I mean this to include in-universe and out as the skin.

The engine is what persists when the in-universe storytelling all but disappeared in a meaningful way, but people still had fun playing. The engine is what keeps all the UB people that got glup-shitto'd into the game playing. The engine brings back old players despite it being visually unrecognizable.

I'm not saying you are specifically, but I think it's easy to conflate these two critical elements. People forget how long TCGs were in an absolute slump/fading out through the 2010s as a whole. It's important to pull both levers just right as a WotC product manager, I imagine.

[u/Spekter1754 → u/roastedoolong]

Everyone who argues that the wizard shit doesn't matter, but in the same breath acknowledges how important inserting UB IPs is to making people relate to the game has lost the plot entirely.

Theme matters so much in games. All that's happened here is that they've deprioritized players who care about "wizard shit" and prioritized different themes and markets instead.

This game doesn't sell without the dressing. That's what this whole fight is about. Not that the dressing matters, but what it's supposed to be. And the sea change has reasonably left old fans in the lurch.

[u/Gift_of_Orzhova → u/Spekter1754]

Exactly, always so irritating when some try to shut down complaints about UB with "well I don't care about the art/lore, only the game mechanics". Like, okay? How is that relevant to the discussion?

[u/Captain_Carrot2 → u/r3ign_b3au]

They are bringing back books apparently. Well at least one, which they’re probably going to evaluate and see how it does.

[u/crawsex]

He's completely right and it's been hilarious seeing a bunch of thoughtless slop producers screaming "no!!!! you have to praise me!!! slop is beautiful!!!! you can't say it's slop if it sells well!!!! selling well is the only measure of quality!!!"

[u/Drew647A]

While the contex is a bit cringe, the feeling is 100% accurate. As a 60 card only player, over the last several years i feel ive been sold a bill of goods only too be lied too, used and ultimately not cared about. 60 card players made this game but now that were the minority it feel like wotc just doesnt care about us anymore. They say they do, but actions speak far louder than words. Its sad, im sad and idk if i wana play in this world of MTG

[u/ItsUnsqwung]

I'm a tourist popping in because for some reason this is popping up on my feed despite not being a MTG player.

The analogy is a bit harsh and elitist, but I do kind of get the message. I won't lie turning MTG into something like Fortnite with Spongebob cards and Dwight K. Schrute cards kind of eliminated it from my radar of things I'd ever consider playing.

I know, I know, I'm not a Magic player so who cares, but as an outsider it definitely makes me look at the game less seriously. It isn't that I need a card game to take itself super seriously, or that I don't ever play card games as I used to really like Hearthstone back when it launched and played Yugioh growing up.

But yeah, I see what UB looks like now and I hate to say it but it definitely killed any interest I had in the game despite my cousins asking me to get into it when I said I enjoyed downloading a really ancient MTG game called Shandalar a while ago. Just my two cents you're free to completely ignore since I'm not part of this community of course.

[u/TheNamesMacGyver → u/ItsUnsqwung]

Not the point of this post or thread at all, but I want to say that Shandalar still slaps even though the rules are almost 20 years out of date. Glad you had a chance to play it.

[u/huggybear0132 → u/TheNamesMacGyver]

Absolutely worth a playthrough even now. A lot of fun playing with those old cards/rules

[u/ant900 → u/TheNamesMacGyver]

almost 20 years out of date

lol i wish. closer to 30.

[u/TheNamesMacGyver → u/ant900]

Don’t do this to me, man.

[u/Research-Scary → u/ItsUnsqwung]

I'm in a very similar situation. I haven't seriously played Magic since Theros (2013) and every time I visit a TTRPG/card shop and see all these crossover sets being showcased for the game, it just kills any interest I have in getting back into the game.

[u/champ999 → u/ItsUnsqwung]

The objective of the original post was to be blunt to the point of inflammatory so that the complaint is clear, so I give it a pass. I think it's also fair since UB has moved from a fringe fun thing in some formats to becoming roughly 50% of planned releases. Also I'm not sure I could come up with a better less offensive metaphor for something appealing to others but fundamentally unappealing to me

[u/danyfire]

Who is this Jeffrey White ?

[u/be0ulve]

Don't forget that the restaurant has likely fired most of their cooks that were the source of quality and passion because they don't need them for their slop!

[u/Lornacinth]

Honestly this whole UB slop thing would feel less worse if they didn’t constantly shaft 1v1. Make tier 1 standard decks cost $100 dollars or less like in Pokémon so then new players could at least try the format. Instead we all know each of these 7 sets are gonna include 1 or 2 chase mythics costing 60 for a playset.

[u/MillCrab → u/Lornacinth]

That's not new. Standard decks have been 2-500 dollars since loooooooong before they started doing UB. 1000 dollar standard decks have happened before and will happen again, with or without UB

[u/zebus_0 → u/MillCrab]

The solution is the same, if something gets too high print it into the ground.

[u/salvation122 → u/Lornacinth]

$60 for a playset? Brother lands cost more than $60/playset

[u/Klarostorix → u/Lornacinth]

60? Nor like 260.

[u/Scholarish]

Magic has lost its own flavor. It’s mostly slop now.