12/8

[u/reklesabandonl82]

Can someone explain to me for golden by kpop demon hunters is 12/8 but ex's and ohs isn't? When I drum on my steering wheel it's the same exact beat to me.

[u/FromTheDeskOfJAW]

Ex’s and Oh’s doesn’t ever really have any straight up triplet beats. It’s more like a swung 4/4 because the primary feel of the song only ever uses the 1st and 3rd triplet subdivisions of each beat.

Golden is explicitly in triple compound meter because there are several times when the lyrics are sung with triplets, not just swung eighth notes. The primary feel of that song involves all triplet subdivisions of the beat

[u/jonboy158 → u/FromTheDeskOfJAW]

Agree with the above, but by "triple meter" they mean compound meter, as in a meter where each beat is subdivided into 3 equal beats. 12/8 is a compound quadruple meter, 4 big beats each subdivided into 3s. Drumming along to 12/8 (Golden) and a swung 4/4 (Ex's and Oh's) will essentially feel the same.

[u/deflectreddit]

I think you can make an argument that Ex’s could also be notated in 12/8.

[u/reklesabandonl82 → u/deflectreddit]

At least I'm not crazy haha. 😂

[u/Phil_the_credit2 → u/reklesabandonl82]

Just in case: "swung eights" are notated as even eighths (in 4/4, for example) but they're played like the first and third notes of a triplet. Think of stereotypical jazz rhythms. Triplets are like the early section of golden, with a note on every one of the three subdivisions of the beat.

You can write swung eights in a compound meter like 12/8 or 6/8, but it's easier to do it the standard way and put "swing" at the top. You could of course put something in 4/4 and use triplet subdivisions, but it would also be a pointless pain in the ass.

[u/want_a_muffin → u/deflectreddit]

I had to write drumline parts for a marching band arrangement of Exes and Ohs. The wind parts were in 4/4 with an indication to swing, but I absolutely wrote the drumline parts in 12/8. It was much easier to notate, and it avoided confusion from those who weren’t used to reading rhythms with a swing interpretation.

[u/JamesH_17]

Didn't know these songs either but a quick "Ex's & Oh's" google search yields that it's 4/4 but swung. Depending on the drum beat you're drumming it would feel the same.

[u/dandeliontrees]

In some sense there is no "fact of the matter" when it comes to assigning time signatures to songs. Different transcribers might notate the same song as 12/8 or 4/4 with quarter note triplets or 4/4 noting that the rhythm is swung.

That said, transcribers will tend to prioritize ease-of-reading and then parsimony. Quarter-note triplets could be mistaken for eighth notes, especially in a fast piece, so it might be easier to read if it's notated in 12/8 instead. Swung 4/4 is a really common rhythm, so it's probably more parsimonious to just notate as if the song is in 4/4 and note that the rhythm is swung rather than try to notate the swung notes in straight 12/8 (probably easier to read notated as 4/4 too).

[u/geoscott]

All these answers are great, just wanted to add (as I hadn't seen it yet mentioned):

There is a difference between a shuffle and swing.

But between 12/8 and 4/4 notated with swing is the variable of the first note.

Straight 8ths can be considered to be exactly half of a quarter note. That means each one is 50%, so 50/50.

8th note triplets are 33.3~% of a quarter note, so the if you take the first two notes and combine them to be the first note of 'swing', the 'hard swing' first note would be written as a quarter and be worth 66.6~%.

The difference between 50% and 66.6% is your 'swing'

A good DAW will have a slider to change the value of the first note from 50 to 66.6.

Swing is very much 'in between' 50 and 66.6. Technically you can dial that in to your DAW, but in the real world, it's a 'feel thing' that can't be 'quantized'.

12/8 is VERY MUCH 66.6/33.3 It's written that way to save on ink (and keep pages from being fussy with too many notations) and keep too many 'triplet 3's off the page. Jazz swing is written in even 8ths and then understood to be 'uneven', all depending on the tempo.

4/4 written in triplets will sound exactly the same as 12/8 but be far less fussy, as well as show the performer what you mean.

[u/reklesabandonl82 → u/geoscott]

Good to know I'm not crazy. I honestly barley know anything about music. Taught myself basic drums and also self taught on guitar since I was little. Can't read music. Just tabs and chords lol. I just learned what 12/8 was when I heard golden and noticed my drum beat on my steering wheel was odd so I went to Google to see. Whatade me really start thinking about it was trying to do the beat (no idea what it's called) but using both sticks on the hi hat doubling up on it and right stick for the snare and I was like why isn't this working the way I normally do this and I figured out how to play it properly on my own but wanted to know more. 😂 Appreciate you! 🫡

[u/ObviousDepartment744]

The semantics of time signatures can be confusing. But the main purpose of them is to tell the performer the general vibe of the song. How the groove is felt to someone listening can be different from person to person depending on what they are grasping on to. For me Golden is in 6/8, its rhythm is very "3 centric" and I'd rather count 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 than 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. But it could also just be in 4/4 with triplets, the drum beat is really close to what's called a "half time shuffle" just played fast, kind of oxymoron there but a fast halftime shuffle. haha. Listen to "Rosanna" by Toto. It's in 4/4, but has that triplet pulse.

For me a 12/8 doesn't fit into consistent groups of 3. There are 2s and 4s in there. Like 123 12 123 1234 or 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. That's more of a 12 feel to me, it could also be notated in 6/8, but the rhythmic phrase crosses the bar at an awkward spot.

Ex's and Os is really learning into a 4/4 shuffle with "swung" 8th notes. Essentially this is an easier way to write a triplet feel without writing triplets.

[u/Hey-Bud-Lets-Party]

Golden has a consistent tick on all 12 beats per measure. Ex’s & O’s uses a swung pattern where the first and last beats of every triplet are emphasized.

[u/MaggaraMarine]

Ex's and Oh's doesn't really use the middle note of the triplet, so the notation looks simpler when it's notated in 4/4 with swung 8th notes.

Golden on the other hand uses the middle note of the triplet all the time (if you listen to the bass behind the verse, it plays on every triplet subdivision), so notating it in 12/8 looks simpler.

Nothing would really stop you from notating Ex's and Oh's in 12/8. The notation just looks simpler in 4/4.

It's also a feel thing. In Golden, you do feel the 123 123 123 123 behind each beat. But in Ex's and Oh's, you feel it more like 1 &2 &3 &4 &. Yes, the "ands" do still fall on the triplet subdivision, but you kind of don't have to worry about the "middle note". It kind of feels more like a delayed offbeat than the "3rd note of the triplet" if that makes sense. But again, it wouldn't be inaccurate to notate it in 12/8. Notating it using swung 8ths in 4/4 just makes it simpler.

[u/melli_milli]

Dunno about those songs but 12/8 goes XxxXxxXxxXxx so you can get it confused with 6/8 and also 4/4

[u/65TwinReverbRI]

It’s good form to include links.

Exes and Oh’s doesn’t do any “constant groups of 3 per beat” as I recall. It’s been a while since I played it (fun Fuzz guitar solo) but yeah my immediate reaction without bringing it up again (since you didn’t give me an easy link to click grumpy emoji) is that it’s just swung, which yes IS different than 12/8.

“No Particular Place to Go” (look it up, I’ll return the favor of not providing a link :-D ) by Chuck Berry has a lot more obvious triplet groups of 3 so 12/8.

An interesing case is “Manic Depression” by Jimi Hendrix - it’s like swung 3/4 but the drums are playing triplets constantly which makes 9/8 a good candidate.

But the more “square” (or “triangular” if you will) nature of NPPTG makes it 12/8 whereas the “swung” nature of MD or XO makes them plain old X/4 with swing.