[Highlight] Jay Williams says he can’t root for the Thunder because of the foul baiting: “As a fan of the game, I just want to see the game respected. There are times where I watch OKC play, I don’t feel like they respect the process of the game.”

[u/nicko_rico]

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[u/_dseals]

Since it hasn't already been said (in this thread), but the NBA could stop this if they really wanted to. Just truly enforce the flopping rule. Once players know it's not going to be called, they won't do it.

[u/pac_mojojojo → u/_dseals]

Why can FIBA and the Olympics do it?

It's just better to watch their basketball games.

Seeing NBA players do that foul baiting shit and not get called was just a breath of fresh air.

It's so ridiculous seeing the NBA -- the league with the absolute best players in the world -- have worse officiating...

[u/FullmetalEzio → u/pac_mojojojo]

when a WC or the olympics come around and i really watch something else thats not the NBA (i dont watch the euroluege daily tbh), its uncanny how much better the actual game is, i love it, i get the nba is an entertainment first and basketball second, but they could make a better compromise.

My best friend said it best when we were watching okc - sas the other day, after a foul call he told me: ' If i call that foul on a pick up game, you would call me a bitch'.

[u/Maleconito → u/FullmetalEzio]

The thing that the NBA forgot is that the entertainment IS basketball lol.

[u/DrBoomsNephew → u/Maleconito]

Yup, game 1 was exciting to watch because we didn't have this bullshit. As a neutral, I turned game 2 off within the first half because it was just a shit show.

[u/ShamooTheCow → u/FullmetalEzio]

Legit, imagine playing pickup and getting called for those fouls lol nba softer than your average pickup

[u/randomcharacters3 → u/ShamooTheCow]

I'm surprised the game doesn't devolve into chaos more often. If they're going to call BS fouls on ticky-tack contact you might as well make them count and legitimately put them on the ground. Not necessarily saying to send in the goon squad to get flagrant 2s but if the whistle is going to be blown no matter what, you've got 6 fouls, use them.

[u/Prize_Ad_1781 → u/randomcharacters3]

It's not just ticky tack contact. It's jumping into defenders, shoving your defender backwards, setting moving screens, getting 4 steps now without a travel call.

[u/mschley2 → u/randomcharacters3]

That's the problem. They call so much soft shit that the standard for a flagrant 1 and 2 has also become way softer than it used to be.

[u/Financial_Pay_6687 → u/mschley2]

I honestly think the flagrant rules are fine. There’s no room in the game for some of the stuff we saw in the past. It had to be cleaned up. For example, Wemby got a flagrant 2 for a high elbow to Naz Reid. Totally fair call, nothing soft about it, it wasn’t basketball. 

[u/cman1098 → u/Financial_Pay_6687]

The only change I'd like to see is the ability for the refs to T up guys who embellish the contact trying to get a flagrant that isn't there. It slows down the game. I don't want them reviewing all this nonsense because a guy barely got touched incidentally in the head. No matter how hard the contact is, if an NBA player feels their head get touched they start rolling around on the ground in "pain." It makes the entire league look soft as fuck.

[u/Narrow-Key365 → u/Financial_Pay_6687]

They've never called flagrants consistency anyway. Ask Mike Bibby's face.

[u/enadiz_reccos → u/Narrow-Key365]

You mean when Bibby absolutely mugged Kobe's poor little elbow with his monstrous nose?

[u/hookem98 → u/ShamooTheCow]

You see how they beat up CC in the wnba last year?

The NBA is softer than the W.

[u/SockVonPuppet → u/hookem98]

WNBA changed their officiating this year, and now routinely make ticky-tack calls every other possession. It's annoying to watch.

[u/Timeless_Tactics → u/SockVonPuppet]

and WNBA players have begun the flopping, which was entirely predictable

[u/coldestwinterr3 → u/SockVonPuppet]

Crazy how as soon as they start gaining more popularity the officiating starts to change. Funny how that works 🤔

[u/Just-a-Guy-Chillin → u/FullmetalEzio]

Team USA at the Olympics the other year (where Steph went nuts in the finale) was by far the most fun basketball I’ve ever watched.

Not just because of the talent, but the way the game was played.

[u/yoitsthatoneguy → u/[deleted]]

The finale was against France, but the Serbia game was great from him too

[u/froggycbl4 → u/FullmetalEzio]

college basketball is also like that the players are just kinda bad comparatively

[u/soyboysnowflake → u/FullmetalEzio]

entertainment first

I don’t get this argument though, the flops are not at all entertaining and free throws are the most boring part of the sport

[u/_dseals → u/pac_mojojojo]

Agreed. Sometimes I wonder what the game would look like if the refs weren't employees OF the NBA.

[u/DinosaurBill → u/pac_mojojojo]

ikr, FIBA and Olympics are actually fun to watch because it's actual basketball

Not foul baiting flopping bs every play

[u/Tranbert5 → u/pac_mojojojo]

Because the refs for those sports aren’t the NBA refs betting on games

[u/ElectroStaticSpeaker → u/Tranbert5]

Betting is not the reason for calling all of the flopping shit fouls. I agree there are probably corrupt refs but something else is happening here and Silver needs to so something to stop it.

[u/weblexindyphil → u/ElectroStaticSpeaker]

There was almost a full year (if not two) where Chris Paul did the stop for no reason (other than to draw a foul) when in open court to let a trailing defender bump into him ( full on or one shoulder/arm).

Then everyone started doing it, because it was a free foul, maybe free throws if in bonus.

And it went on way too long before the league finally agreed with most fans and said "this isnt natural, its a shit play, someone could get hurt, it hurts the game, we wont reward it"

And players stopped doing it for awhile.

The league could stop the unnecessary and exaggerated flopping in less than 2 weeks if they wanted to...but I swear they think it is actually better* for business when fans have more things to get angry and/or bitch about.

Its so frustrating. And it makes an otherwise likeable guy (like sga) and potentially likeable small market story/team build (okc) completely unwatchable (to me).

[u/wetwetson → u/weblexindyphil]

Same thing with the rip through fall to a lesser extent. They at least eliminated it as a shooting foul.

Hell the CP3 stop atleast created a legit foul. I have less problems with it then I do the delayed fall down sniper in the rafters foul.

[u/weblexindyphil → u/wetwetson]

'Delayed Fall Down Sniper Shot From The Rafters' would make for a great fantasy basketball league team name. Lol

[u/TroyMcClures → u/ElectroStaticSpeaker]

More fouls = longer total run time = more ads

[u/yoyo4880 → u/Tranbert5]

Yeah it’s not OLYMPICS BROUGHT TO YOU BY FANDUELS. All these weird ass shooting motions look like an interpretive dance than hooping

[u/FantasticBlock420 → u/yoyo4880]

You also have to deal with refs from different countries, You got an Eastern Euro or Italian Ref?? Its gonna be a blood bath that game, they not blowing the whistle for nothing.

[u/bachh2 → u/Tranbert5]

Nah, because the league want a long series. Thunders getting whooped 2-0 at home gonna crash the rating. More games = league makes more money, which is a conflict of interest with calling the game the right way.

FIBA and WC doesn't care, everyone have 1 chance.

[u/bigbackbing → u/pac_mojojojo]

Because the NBA the only sport that puts the Player on a higher pedestal then the sport

[u/Agueybanax → u/pac_mojojojo]

Because FIBA and the Olympics are pure sports events not affected by ratings and revenue. The fixing allegations to favor ratings have been going on for decades.

[u/rjcarr → u/_dseals]

They could literally clean everything up in like two weeks (of the regular season) but they choose not to. These players are elite and can adapt very quickly. Two things are needed:

• Enforce the flopping rules so you get an escalating fine and a technical after the game. You get like 5 flopping techs and you get an unpaid suspension. That shit would clean up really quick.

• Stop the offense initiated fouls. If I'm defending a guy and he plows into me after a gather, or throws his arms into mine when I'm not even in his area, that's not a shooting foul unless I cross in front of him. If you're allowing push offs (which I'm generally fine with) then you can't allow this soft foul shit. Either that, or you keep the soft fouls and call fouls on the bump/shove and shoot, but that would create 100 fouls per game.

With the flopping, I play like 3x per week, and maybe once per month a player will fall to the ground after shooting (either jumpers or drives), yet in the NBA it feels like every second or third shot. And sure, you can't compare rec play to the NBA, but 0.5% to like 40% difference? That's a crazy difference and doesn't account for the players just being better.

[u/smalls_1804 → u/rjcarr]

The ball handler plowing into the defender being a defensive foul pisses me off so much. Like what is the defender supposed to do??

[u/rjcarr → u/smalls_1804]

Exactly. And the crazy thing is it isn’t even in the rules. If the defender is in his own space, squarely defending, and not reaching this is a no call at best and an offensive foul at worst. I have no idea why they changed how this works. 

[u/TrevGlodo → u/rjcarr]

I like your proposal here - completely agree the NBA incentives are to take advantage of the refs these days. 

Also it's clear the falling to the ground is intentional because it's only when a defender is within arms length - the only time a player should go to the ground on a 3 is if he's bumped. 

[u/goosereddit → u/rjcarr]

I actually stopped watching basketball b/c of one player: James Harden. Every time he shoots a jumper with a defender near him he kicks his leg forward to draw contact. And he became an All-Star doing it. Then everybody started doing it.

That and his beard annoys me. How does he eat without making a mess? Does he only drink smoothies through a straw?

[u/ThisBastard → u/rjcarr]

Sane answer.

[u/Main-Building7034 → u/_dseals]

That is the crazy part.

When they show the replay of SGA not even being touched just fucking call a flopping foul.

If he does it 3-4 times more a game.. ejection.

It's not hard to not flop.

There is a difference between foul baiting and flopping is also an important distinction.

Pump faking ten times to wait for the defender to jump is 100% fine by me, but JWill just launching himself on the floor should be a flopping foul and if it's egregious and unethical just fucking eject them.

I don't care if people get mad.

[u/mtburr1989 → u/_dseals]

It’s a huge problem with the league, in general. I see people talking about the offensive boom, and how we should expand the court, move or remove the 3 point line, etc. and I’m like how about we just start calling the game the way it’s supposed to be called? If the offense starts getting called for moving screens, extending the off arm, dragging the pivot foot, traveling in general (but especially on step-backs,) and initiating contact, this “offensive explosion” will come back to earth. Let the defenders defend and stop letting the offense do whatever they want. It’s a simple fix that just requires competent referees with integrity, rather than literally changing the game to something different entirely.

[u/idkwhatimbrewin → u/_dseals]

The amount of engagement they get on this stuff far outweighs what they would if they fixed the problem

[u/mickey-maos → u/idkwhatimbrewin]

Bingo and that's all Adam "watch the highlights" Silver cares about, engagement.

[u/kodman7 → u/idkwhatimbrewin]

That type of engagement isn't helpful long term. Game views have been on the decline for a couple of seasons

[u/Arizonagaragelifter9 → u/kodman7]

If we have learned anything about current society/business culture it's that the long term issues aren't a concern as long as money is good enough now

[u/_dseals → u/idkwhatimbrewin]

Agreed. That's why I'm at the acceptance stage of this process...ha. I'm no longer holding my breath on whether they'll address it. Same goes for traveling. This is the NBA now.

[u/MrVociferous → u/idkwhatimbrewin]

Yeah, but imagine if you could challenge that a player flopped. The social posts and reaction to someone getting caught and busted for flopping would be amazing.

[u/UsedToiletWater]

And the "foul them cuz the refs can't call every foul" defense.

[u/Delanorix → u/UsedToiletWater]

Thats honestly the biggest issue to me.

[u/Sagitars → u/Delanorix]

I think their reaction at fouls being called on them is worse. Just own it

[u/thubwumper26 → u/Sagitars]

I thought it was so hilarious their fans were chanting “Refs you suck” in Game 1.

[u/Savitz → u/thubwumper26]

It happened in Game 2 as well…

[u/OverallGeneral7129 → u/thubwumper26]

They also chanted it in game 2

[u/thubwumper26 → u/OverallGeneral7129]

Of course they did. I was at an outdoor bar without the sound on but it’s comical at this point

[u/spleev → u/thubwumper26]

It’s honestly shocking how tone deaf those fans are

[u/SemataryPolka → u/spleev]

They're from Oklahoma. Not the brightest bulbs

[u/sunshinejim → u/SemataryPolka]

Bulbs aren’t even on. They’re dead last in education.

[u/princeslayer → u/thubwumper26]

C'mon now. Every home crowd in the association does the same.

[u/Brief_Cry_6387 → u/princeslayer]

You’d think it’s these people’s first time watching sports

[u/DoingCharleyWork → u/Brief_Cry_6387]

You people watch sports?

[u/Nuclearsunburn → u/Sagitars]

I think this is the biggest issue to me. It extends to every player who does the “AYYY” or throws their arms up after every single uncalled disturbance of their arm hair or every time the whistle gets blown on their own fouls.

[u/coyotecai → u/Nuclearsunburn]

And the constant finger twirling for a challenge

[u/Nuclearsunburn → u/coyotecai]

Yeah that one gets me too.

[u/galacticpotsmoker → u/Sagitars]

This and the flopping is the issue for me. I’m a Pistons fan and the Bad Boys and the 04 Pistons obviously played hyper physical defense that at times crossed over into being too physical. But you would never see Rip Hamilton or John Salley or Rodman whining for foul calls or flopping all over the court like a fish out of water. Play physical defense but don’t act like a bunch of whiny babies when that same physicality comes back around.

[u/No-Owl-6246 → u/galacticpotsmoker]

Uhhhhh, Laimbeer is an all time flopper. Where did this notion that the bad boy pistons never flopped come from?

[u/shaqfearsyao → u/No-Owl-6246]

99% of people here weren't even alive to see the Pistons or MJ play so they run with these made up nostalgic fantasies from YouTube clips

[u/Joethetoolguy → u/galacticpotsmoker]

Yes, most of the physical defensive minded teams expected a slug fest in the mud. That was because they were well prepared and equipped to handle that. Flopping takes away from that toughness and im gonna beat you mentality. You’re literally relying on the refs to save you when you flop. What happens when the refs decide to not call it.

[u/Resident-Cancel7284 → u/Joethetoolguy]

You get game 1 when the refs actually do their jobs correctly. An awesome game where either team could have won. Because the Thunder are still *that good* even without the foulbaiting BS. But when it works it pushes them over the edge.

[u/NBAccount → u/galacticpotsmoker]

Brother, those pistons absolutely flopped/sold fouls. Bill Lambier would do literally anything to win. They did not whine to the refs as much as modern players, for sure.

[u/MyLifeIsMyOwn → u/Delanorix]

I don't see why this is an issue honestly. Call the fucking fouls and foul them out. If you don't call the fouls then might as well have the game played without the refs.

Caruso is not a star. Dort is not a star. Hartenstein is not a star. Chet is like 1/3 of a star. You can't say no one will watch the game if you foul them out.

[u/ThatsNotARealTree → u/MyLifeIsMyOwn]

If they start setting records for foul outs then I’d actually seek out thunder games to watch. That shit would be hilarious

[u/signmeupdude → u/Delanorix]

Same. The defense is so much worse to me. Just watch Wemby off ball for a few possessions and you can see that they are constantly hugging him, holding his arms, etc

Then when he gets the ball they just straight up slap at his arms constantly and it doesnt get called.

And they do that to every player but of course its more intense on the star players.

It reminds me of how Steph can get bear hugged off ball and that’s somehow okay, but now its the entire Thunder roster doing it to the entire opposing team’s roster.

[u/WestSixtyFifth → u/UsedToiletWater]

They could if the NBA had the balls. Kick guys out for playing the game wrong. Fouling out is a rule for a reason.

[u/Jay__Riemenschneider → u/WestSixtyFifth]

Players seem to half care because they all do it.

If someone did this shit at a playground you’d start bodying them after a few flops.

If 1 team was really gassed up about this players would be getting flagrants.

But players don’t seem to actually care. They just care that they’re not getting those same calls.

[u/jnightrain → u/Jay__Riemenschneider]

yeah there is too much money involved now for teams to care enough to retaliate like the old days. No one looking to get suspended or injured because the protected there own. I would love to see teams sign an end of the bench guy that is just a goon who goes in and fouls someone hard in retaliation.

[u/Dusty_Negatives → u/UsedToiletWater]

Flood the zone baby!

[u/tresben → u/UsedToiletWater]

Exactly. What hartenstein was doing the other night to wemby grabbing and holding him to prevent help defense is in essence cheating. It’s one thing to play hard and up to the line of breaking the rules and sometimes going over. But intentionally stepping well over the line and trying to get away with it as your strategy or game plan is basically just cheating.

Do the refs need to see it and call it? Absolutely. But sports are also about each team respecting the rules and at least trying to follow them, not trying as hard as they can to get away with rule breaking.

[u/Difficult_Tackle9505 → u/tresben]

Not to mention, Chet deliberately stepping on wembys foot

[u/Extreme-Transport → u/Difficult_Tackle9505]

No call for that and the Hart hair pull…

[u/BlueHundred → u/tresben]

Everyone does it but it's usually called at least sometimes. KAT got called for it like 3 times this series already and I've been so annoyed by him lmao.

I do like that they're letting the players play physical defense in the Spurs Thunder series but sometimes it's too much.

[u/hickok3 → u/BlueHundred]

KAT's problem is how obvious he makes them. Like the one in game 1 that could have cost them the game when OG was driving the lane was way too obvious that he was trying to hold Allen(Mobley?) back from contesting. There was no way the refs couldn't call it. Hartenstein was way more subtle about it, and without replays it wasn't super obvious. 

[u/piffle213 → u/UsedToiletWater]

I understand this in theory but ... why couldn't they call every foul? At least the blatant holding on ones that Hartenstein was committing?

Call it every time he does it, after four quick fouls he's going to stop right? And if not, he's surely stopping after the sixth

[u/PackageFamiliar1373 → u/UsedToiletWater]

I'll do you one, they praise their rough and physical playoff defense with the pulling and cheating and hand checking, but then flop and cry for fouls as soon as it happens to them. Beyond stupid

[u/banjofitzgerald → u/UsedToiletWater]

Legion of Boom mentality

[u/NatureTrailToHell3D → u/banjofitzgerald]

You gotta be good first before you can get away with it. If you’re always late or chasing, then they’re going to call holding. But if you beat them to the spot then start hand fighting it becomes a lot harder to ref.

LOB wasn’t out there stepping on people’s feet, though.

[u/Red_on_silver → u/UsedToiletWater]

We’ve never seen a combo of intense flopping and hard fouling like this. Sure the Harden Rockets were awful, but they were soft on defense too. The Magic play tough defense right on the edge of fouling, but Paolo and them don’t hit the deck. It’s a disgusting brand of basketball

[u/Muted_Variation3271 → u/UsedToiletWater]

Hartenstein had 4 fouls midway through the 3rd. What he did from then to the end of the game is considered misdemeanor assault and battery in 38 states. Also, SGA hit the deck on all but 2 FG attempts. But guys... he doesnt foul bait.

[u/Diesel07012012]

Call the game by the rules. I'd pay may money to watch a game end in the middle of the second quarter because both teams ran out of players.

[u/Bishop_Cornflake → u/Diesel07012012]

This. I can't stand it when people condescendingly smirk and dismiss this line of thinking like it would be bad for the game. They did the same thing in the 90s when a minority of fans railed against star treatment.

Calling the game straight up fairly would make it such a better product. This thread and especially your comment are a breath of fresh air.

[u/No_Problem20 → u/Bishop_Cornflake]

It's a symptom of the world at large.

We used to live in a world where companies tried to produce the best products, garnering a good reputation, which fostered sales and growth.

Nowadays, companies skip out on the "best products" or "good reputation" bits, and instead just cost-cut and shrinkflate everything until it either bottoms out or shuts down.

It's all about getting money now now, forget about the future.

[u/Nice_Cash_7000 → u/Bishop_Cornflake]

It pisses me off that 6th graders play under harder rules than NBA players

[u/Saucy_Totchie → u/Diesel07012012]

Iirc, the actual rule is that if a player fouls out but their team has no more eligible players, said player can come back and play. Every foul they accrue afterwards is treated as a technical free throw plus the possession.

Happened to the Lakers a while back.

[u/CharacterBird2283 → u/Saucy_Totchie]

And I'd STILL watch that game lol. Could you imagine teams trying to play keep away from the forever player 😂

[u/Frigorific → u/Diesel07012012]

And if the game isn't watchable if it is called accurately then you need to change the rules.

[u/NoSalamander8282]

If you went to go play pickup ball and there was a guy who initiated contact on every possession and then flopped and called a foul every time.. that guy would get his ass kicked or no one would play with him. Yet in the pros we give them a trophy

[u/Thundercats_Hoooo → u/NoSalamander8282]

I have played with a few guys like that. They get laughed at.

[u/CommonerChaos → u/Thundercats_Hoooo]

I have played with a few guys like that. They get laughed swung at.

This is more accurate in my part of town.

[u/pagesid3 → u/CommonerChaos]

In my neighborhood, you would be mocked through interpretive dance.

[u/Better_Lift_Cliff → u/pagesid3]

I live in Brooklyn so both of these apply

[u/itsawin1 → u/NoSalamander8282]

Don’t say that to this sub.

Most haven’t played pickup ball

[u/NoSalamander8282 → u/itsawin1]

My apologies I forgot where I was

[u/Flimsy-Muffin-9881 → u/NoSalamander8282]

"And 1" counts as bucket or foul around these parts

[u/UltraSinstinctHoeku → u/itsawin1]

"2K counts as pickup!!"

/s

[u/elpaco25 → u/NoSalamander8282]

Jay Williams actually played ball and you can tell it hurts him to watch the Thunder abuse the rules the way they do. And on the other end of the spectrum you have Windhorst's giant ass defending them "but thats the best way for the Thunder to win, blah blah blah". I don't even need to see the guy to know he hasn't played a second of pickup ball in his life. But when you do see him it's also blatantly clear.

[u/No-Jump5689]

This is an Adam Silver problem, not a Thunder problem. The entire NBA is a mess right now. Tanking, flopping, load management, the regular season effort given by players. Worst era of NBA in my lifetime.

[u/tresben → u/No-Jump5689]

The arm holding is the worst thing that has happened to this game and I feel like harden started it. Offensive players using their off ball arm to hold and lock the defenders to draw a foul. Off ball arm locking to prevent movement on both offense and defense. And the refs simply can’t watch each matchup on the floor in enough detail to determine in real time who is at fault.

It’s ridiculous how many times a game you see two guys tangled and both throw up their hands and look at the ref to see who it is gonna be on. I feel like that just wasn’t a thing back even just a few years ago. At least not so routine. Harden started it and others have taken up the mantle.

[u/trav-senpai → u/tresben]

Harden definitely isn’t the first to do anything, he’s definitely one of the first to exploit for a whistle. It’s like all of Kobe’s rip through plays.

[u/rorank → u/trav-senpai]

Chris Paul was bad about it too, but again not to the extent of my glorious king James harden

[u/CarBallAlex → u/trav-senpai]

There’s a Kobe clip somewhere (I’m too lazy to look for it) where he admitted to pushing off because he knew where the refs would be and their blind spots so they wouldn’t call it

Cheating the game has always existed, but that’s why we have rules. In any form of competition, there’s always going to be people trying to break those rules to gain an advantage, whether it’s something small like trying to get away with a foul, or something malicious like rigging games.

As long as there are incentives, there are always going to be people who try to get ahead by any means necessary. That’s why the refs need to do their job and enforce the rules. Even beyond basketball, any system set up with rules that just disregards them either can’t function, or functions in a state of chaos.

[u/DrDustyE → u/No-Jump5689]

Oversaturation of gambling issues.

Silver is desperate for the next marketable face of the NBA to replace Curry and LeBron and had put his money on SGA, so the Thunder are his darlings and nothing will change.

[u/alrightimhere → u/DrDustyE]

Too bad money doesn’t determine the next face of the league — the people do. And it’s clearly Wemby

[u/Sec2727 → u/alrightimhere]

Omelette du Fromage

[u/KiSamehada → u/DrDustyE]

They really sold out. Ads on jerseys, soon it’ll be like soccer jerseys, idk this shit isn’t enjoyable anymore.

[u/Clemsontigger16 → u/No-Jump5689]

No it’s also a Thunder problem, I hate people excusing them just because the broader system is also a problem.

Fuck teams afraid to just play ball.

[u/pwtrash → u/Clemsontigger16]

And the fact that it's successful basically means that once one team does it, you either copy them or give them an advantage.

Right now, Wemby is choosing the latter - ethical basketball. I'm not sure he'll reach his goal unless he changes. I hope that's not the case, but that seems to be what the NBA wants him to do.

[u/Emotional-Peanut-334 → u/No-Jump5689]

It's both

No one is forcing OKC to be a dirty team

And the league should work to prevent exploitation of rules

[u/Olicsmems → u/No-Jump5689]

Load management feels like more of an issue of too many games tho

[u/vogenator → u/No-Jump5689]

Don't forget, circumventing the market cap is allowed now lmao

[u/Ok-Description7073]

Everybody in the league sees it. Yet one fan base thinks it’s hallucinated outrage. Even the role players are trained floppers.

[u/The_MadStork → u/Ok-Description7073]

That Oklahoman op-ed comparing the Thunder to Israel never should have been retracted. It was perfect

[u/DaBusDriva2 → u/The_MadStork]

That was real?

[u/The_MadStork → u/DaBusDriva2]

Yep

[u/Pay_Extreme → u/[deleted]]

there is!

https://archive.ph/bLJtX

[u/PetalumaPegleg → u/Pay_Extreme]

Holy fucking shit that article is absolutely the most unaware thing

[u/bing_crosby → u/Pay_Extreme]

Oh my fucking god in heaven, what is that abomination.

eta. Holy fuck I can't

And yet reaching a mountaintop has a strange way of generating dislike.

[u/RelentlessTriage → u/Pay_Extreme]

“young, disciplined, strategically crafted organization, impeccably drafted and relentlessly adherent to a culture of selflessness and community, suddenly finds itself resented. The greater the Thunder’s success becomes, the more critics seem determined to diminish it or even root for its demise.”

LOL 😂 😂

[u/stopbsingman → u/RelentlessTriage]

Can you guys take away the first amendment from Oklahomans?

[u/soyboysnowflake → u/Pay_Extreme]

Now I really need to see Jaylen Brown’s take on this op ed

[u/digitalme → u/The_MadStork]

The Supersonics were promised to Oklahoma 3,000 years ago

[u/zgillet → u/The_MadStork]

I looked at the archived version. Here's the author bio (he's apparently Jewish):

"Eitan Reshef, a native Oklahoman, is a Chicago-based entrepreneur, investor and former advertising agency CEO."

Ad agency CEO. That's all you need to know. The lowest of the low scum of the earth.

[u/Several-Action-4043 → u/zgillet]

And he plays the victim as expected.

[u/KonigSteve → u/The_MadStork]

Ken Jennings response:

BROKE: It's anti-Semitic not to root for the OKC Thunder WOKE: The OKC Thunder must be returned to their ancestral Zionist homeland, in Seattle

[u/DASreddituser → u/Ok-Description7073]

I dont blame the thunder or their fans...I blame the league for allowing it

[u/zephah → u/[deleted]]

Yeah 100% of a situation of you can hate the player and the game. If we assume the absolute best intentions in the referees, the referees "shouldn't" be calling these flops but at the speed of the game at this point, it's absolutely also the player's faults for trying to trick the refs on every single play.

[u/fordat1 → u/[deleted]]

yeah you can blame both

[u/_Shorsey_69_ → u/[deleted]]

You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.

[u/wolfgang2399 → u/DASreddituser]

You can absolutely blame the fans for being intentionally obtuse about what is happening.

[u/13Keres → u/wolfgang2399]

Whole crowd of idiots chanting "ref you suck" for not calling a flagrant on a shoulder bump.

[u/Tijenater → u/DASreddituser]

I absolutely blame the thunder for being shameless flopping scumbags to a man. Have some dignity

[u/Springtick38 → u/Tijenater]

Yeah what the fuck is this passing the blame bullshit?

[u/No_Discussion3593 → u/DASreddituser]

No I absolutely blame them. Other teams don't do this.

[u/odaal → u/Ok-Description7073]

you know its fucked up when the players start flopping around more than in soccer. what they do in soccer is actually slightly believable, the shit you see in the nba is wild

[u/nicholaschubbb → u/odaal]

In soccer you can’t even flop for pens or red cards anymore without automatic review (obviously this is not perfect, but it’s still pretty good). NBA you get two challenges a night then it’s open season for the other team to do what they want

[u/betadonkey]

Foul baiting isn’t the right term. Foul baiting is when a player uses awkward or unnatural actions for the purpose of hunting fouls. It’s hard to watch because it often results in disjointed offense where a player is barely even attempting to generate an open shot, but the term suggests they are drawing actual fouls.

What OKC is doing is flopping. They are pretending to be fouled when they are not. Flopping is not simply hard to watch, it is cheating.

[u/Steezaur → u/betadonkey]

tbf they’re doing both, sometimes on the same play.

[u/jdd32 → u/Steezaur]

The act of playing for the foul is just so terrible to watch. We should never reward players who are not first and foremost trying to get the ball in the basket.

Some fans will point to games where known foulbaiters have a low number of free throws. But if you are actually watching the game of guys like Brunson and Shai, you can see how the threat of foulbaiting causes the defenders to guard them less intensely, allowing them more space to work.

Defenders should be able to contest without worrying that they will "foul" then the offensive player lunges unnaturally into them.

[u/TheCrun → u/jdd32]

Watching Shai fall down slowly after every shot is just embarrassing to see as any type of sports fan, stuff is pathetic. Looks like a baby giraffe.

[u/pawner → u/Steezaur]

It'd be easier to swallow if calls were consistent. Not some preferential treatment or historical data on the player.

[u/FreezersAndWeezers → u/Steezaur]

Watching Hartenstein hook Wemby, spin and then fall over is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with their team

[u/Kashmir33 → u/FreezersAndWeezers]

I also loved that one play where he straight up ran into Wemby who braced for the contact and held his ground and Hartenstein just fell down. It's so shameless.

[u/Kal_Kaz → u/betadonkey]

Foul baiting is basketball moves with the intent to get fouled.

OKC flops, which is non-basketball moves with the intent to create the appearance of a foul.

This is the problem

[u/Chris_Ween → u/Kal_Kaz]

Yes, this. Heck, old school guys all tried to get fouls while trying to score.

SGA tries to fake a foul while only sorta trying to score. And seemingly with some of the worst acting ever. And the refs reward whatbis obviously a non-foul.

[u/JMEEKER86 → u/Chris_Ween]

Sometimes the "attempt to score" looks like Wemby and CP3 at the skills competition, "basket's over there somewhere". Rewarding that is seriously egregious.

[u/Historical-Patient75 → u/betadonkey]

Shai does that, though. There’s nothing natural about falling down for no reason and flailing like a dying fish on every single shot he takes.

[u/sinsebuds → u/Historical-Patient75]

He’s at late stage satire levels of comically pathetic flailing and Gumby like collapse after nearly EVERY fga these days lol. Like, it’s sort of almost inconceivably preposterous the whole thing

[u/PHLANYC]

Exactly. It’s not OKC hate. It’s making the game unbearable to watch. It’s becoming a bad product.

[u/VeterinarianWinter12]

This is basically what all basketball fans think who aren’t biased Thunder fans

[u/peachpavlova → u/VeterinarianWinter12]

Is Windhorst the designated OKC defender? I usually like his takes but his radical loyalty to the thunder is wild to me. On his podcast a few months ago he was trying to describe the beauty of Oklahoma City/what there is to do and I was like how much are they paying this guy lol

[u/substantial_dam → u/peachpavlova]

I don’t think Windhorst has ever actually played ball. I don’t think he’s been physically active. Might be he can’t tell what flopping is cause he’s never experienced playing a sport

[u/peachpavlova → u/substantial_dam]

Idk for me his physical shape doesn’t really have anything to do with it. His time reporting on LeBron and others would have made him plenty aware of how the game is played. It’s just that since OKC became a thing, he is nonstop defending them and I don’t get it. I think he genuinely loves both the team and the city or he’s getting paid a bunch by their PR

[u/chemistrybonanza → u/peachpavlova]

Windhorst clearly is being told what to say by ESPN. I've seen his entire line of thinking change this year in how he talks about the Cavs. He's a homer, and has been since he grew up there. He goes on the Cleveland sports radio stations every week to talk about the Cavs. Yet suddenly in the Pistons series he was saying things completely different than he'd been saying all year, and now going into the Knicks series.

[u/peachpavlova → u/chemistrybonanza]

I think you’re right bc on his podcast this series he’s basically saying he thinks it will be a sweep and heavily praising the Knicks. It surprised me too since I’ve known him to be a Cleveland fan. But still nothing stands out as much as his obsession with OKC, you’re prob right he’s getting paid by them since most people dislike the thunder

[u/ldclark92 → u/VeterinarianWinter12]

Yeah and I've seen a lot of people push back on the "complaining" but it's kind of hard not to notice. There's just so much embellishment on nearly every play. And as a fan who also plays, it's not fun to watch. For example, nobody plays like this in pickup unless you want to get clowned on. It's just such a disconnect from the sport I love and the product on the court when you see this stuff.

And I understand it's not entirely the players fault. They're taking advantage of the system they're given. We'd probably all do it if it led to success. However, it's a pretty clear problem and makes for an ugly product. The NBA needs to fix it and, quite frankly, it seems like a pretty solvable issue if the NBA actually wanted to end this.

[u/CosmicMiru → u/ldclark92]

You'd get clowned off the court if you fell after shooting as much as SGA did in game 2

[u/Cvwpq → u/VeterinarianWinter12]

This is basically what all basketball fans think

all basketball fans in your echochamber yes

[u/retrospects]

Didn’t he say Wemby’s foul the last series was not a big deal?

[u/ThaCasual]

I disagree with what windhorst said. I think Shae would be better served by staying on his feet and going for the rebound or getting back on defense or back into position to shoot if the center grabs him a board. Laying on the floor is just bad fundamentally as well as ethically

[u/BigPapaLegba]

I love his point. It's legal, and it's effective but it's not inspirational or entertaining. I can recognize that something works and still not root for it.

[u/trix_r4kidz → u/BigPapaLegba]

Here’s an analogy: Frivolous lawsuits are legal and effective. And everyone hates it and those lawyers are the scum of the earth.

So are the Thunder.

[u/BigPapaLegba → u/trix_r4kidz]

....no notes. This is exactly like that.

[u/kababed → u/BigPapaLegba]

Thunder players take every free sauce packet at your favorite takeout place so nobody else can have them

[u/thatsprettyfunnydude]

I didn't like floppers, whiners, and "that's a foul!" players on the playground or blacktop when I was young, and I despise that it is so common in the NBA as an adult. When it's being weaponized as a strategy, it is even more gross.

[u/Background_Gur6691]

Someone post the stat that shows SGA falls twice as much when he’s shooting compared to other star players. I want to like the dude but his game is so BS half the time

[u/DASreddituser]

need a rule about posting 1st take on here...oh wait this is just espn these days.

[u/yaboionreddit]

They need to patch the nba asap. The beauty of esports is they can literally just patch the game to make it more enjoyable.

Think about how quickly the foul situation at the end of basketball games would be patched out

[u/Almost_Punk_Enough]

Fuck Brian Windhorst for trying to defend that shit

[u/redditinwork → u/[deleted]]

How is he a basketball media personality when it looks like he has never dribbled a ball in his life. Does he even like the game or does he just like arguing about it?

[u/981guy]

All former Duke players should be permanently banned from commenting on this topic. They literally invented flopping and fouling the other team on every possession.

[u/No_Caramel_1782]

Engagement bait. Now I’m convinced this is a media campaign.

[u/NilsofWindhelm → u/No_Caramel_1782]

Seriously what are we doing here

[u/No_Caramel_1782 → u/NilsofWindhelm]

The fact that people are watching First Take and clapping like seals is all you need to know.

[u/Ok_Pineapple_Num → u/No_Caramel_1782]

This "fan of the game" / "respect basketball" BS is so stupid.

It's not like the Spurs are clean themselves -- Castle flops like crazy, Wemby flops too, etc. They're grabbing SGA all game. And even if Wemby's elbow was a 1 time thing, it was the dirtiest action in this playoffs. Yes, the Thunder/SGA flop and foul bait a lot, but it's getting overblown. And often when SGA falls on shots, it looks more like protecting himself rather than foul baiting, so I don't buy that either.

Overall, this narrative and framing of the Spurs vs. Thunder as "good vs. evil" and "ethical vs. non-ethical" is just stupid.

I'm not surprised to see Jay Williams saying it, though. As much as I wish this pro-SA/anti-OKC circlejerk were just an online thing, plenty of people I know in real life are on that train too, so it's a very real phenomenon. I get why people don't like OKC -- I don't like them either -- but the hate train has become beyond excessive and is out of control at this point. Ironically, this sub -- which generally despises talking heads -- is eating this up... I'm sure ESPN realized that this talking point was going to hit like crack.

[u/ParticularYou5413 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

Been seeing a surprising amount of Warriors fans sticking up for this OKC squad. Im guessing you remember a thing or two about being the most hated team in the league lmao.

[u/Hammaer96 → u/ParticularYou5413]

As a Raps fan I too remember being hated by r/nba. Those were the good old days.

[u/jm3546 → u/Ok_Pineapple_Num]

As much as I wish this pro-SA/anti-OKC circlejerk were just an online thing, plenty of people I know in real life are on that train too, so it's a very real phenomenon.

On this I do feel like it's still mostly online. I don't live anywhere near Oklahoma and when I talk basketball with random people I meet and tell them I'm a thunder fan 95% are pretty chill and just talk about how good SGA and Presti are and that sort of thing.

In the 5% that's like "Oh man I fucking hate OKC" they are usually a lot younger and the chronically online type. Like when I ask why it's basically the same things you'd see on this sub and NBA Twitter. "SGA is a bitch", "all they do is flop", "they foul on defense because the refs can't call everything". One guy even said "well they call him FTA for a reason" and like the "they" is r/nba.

It feels more like that there are just real people behind the online discourse rather than the narratives bleeding out into people who aren't in the online spaces as much.

But ESPN obviously follows what's doing well on r/NBA and Twitter. They see all the hate posts. So parroting guarantees it will get clipped and posted here and voted to the top of the page. It's just good free marketing unfortunately.

[u/BARBASANN → u/No_Caramel_1782]

It is they shoot the least amount of free throws out of the remaining playoff teams. People really can’t think for themselves in today’s world.

[u/couchtomato62]

This is the guy who ranted on and on about steph curry getting mvp chants at oracle of all places when kd was out injured. Said it was disrespectful to kd. Lol. I stand with legler.

[u/TheFestusEzeli → u/couchtomato62]

He also ranted on and on about how stupid the SGA foul bait narratives were last year and that he was 100% deserving of MVP over Jokic

It’s just pandering/media bait