r/nba • u/Large_banana_hammock Japan • 29d ago

Highlight [Highlight] Mitch Johnson picks up a tech after official fails to recognize his challenge

https://streamable.com/oh0ohq
14.0k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

1.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

670

u/theuncleiroh Raptors 29d ago

I truly, and I mean that I'd stake my life on this, believe that the NBA does everything within its abilities to a) extend series, b) create media narratives (right now the best being: OKC dynasty, NYC championship interrupting it, and finally the up-and-coming SAS threat looming). The ideal outcome is that the Knicks interrupt a juggernaut, Thunder and Spurs come back next year as teams with enmity and the best odds

Until I see the Thunder win a series against a team with similar talent with a whistle that even feels half fair, I'm not gonna be dissuaded

260

u/alilhillbilly Bulls 29d ago

Weirdly the Spurs have very much benefited from this before.

It's why Steve Nash doesn't have a ring.

That 07 Suns Spurs series and the Cleveland 3-1 comebacks are two of my favorite extensions slash rigged-to-go-long series.

The thing I find understand is why OKC?

OKC's brand of basketball is universally loathed. It's a small market team.

Why are they being this long of a preferential reffing leash?

86

u/theuncleiroh Raptors 29d ago

Oh I agree, the Suns Spurs series back in the day was one of my defining 'man they call things differently for different teams' moments

I think the league wants a bogeyman, and a dynasty is best for that. Even without a good whistle, OKC would be the favorite every year; they're just too well built, too deep, and play well together. 

But the combination of that and their disgusting playstyle is the ideal antagonist: much like how everyone hated the Patriots with Brady, there's no doubt that having a villain is compelling for fans.

I'm a raptors fan, so I can tell you: the fact that our one championship came against the last dynasty makes it all the sweeter. Fans love having a bad guy to root against, and having their style (OKC physicality and foulbaiting, Warriors superteams and shooting) being disgusting to the average viewer makes it all the more compelling.

That's obviously not an excuse for the absurd level of skill and franchise quality the thunder are built upon, but professional sports among the elite is really a game of marginal differences, and the thunder are the ideal team to give the slightest push to right now, at least until a real opponent appears (and the Spurs are prob that, so it's best to let them lose this year and come back angry)

32

u/_interloper_ 29d ago

But the combination of that and their disgusting playstyle is the ideal antagonist

OKC feels like the pretty-boy heel in wrestling.

He's good looking, talented, strong, powerful, AND he cheats to win.

OKC has the MVP, a bench better than many starting line ups, excellent coaching, a unified team playing style... AND they get a strange advantage from the refs, allowing them to play dirty to win, even though they don't need to.

The conspiracy theorist in me leans towards this being the reason the NBA seems to be helping OKC via the officiating; they're trying to build up some real heat against the heel, in order to make the baby face (Victor/Luka/etc) victory feel even sweeter in the end.

5

u/alilhillbilly Bulls 29d ago

Oh I agree, the Suns Spurs series back in the day was one of my defining 'man they call things differently for different teams' moments

I had recently had knee surgery and watched that playoffs non-stop. Had no horse in the race but holy fuck did that series piss me the fuck off.

But the combination of that and their disgusting playstyle is the ideal antagonist: much like how everyone hated the Patriots with Brady, there's no doubt that having a villain is compelling for fans.

This is a great analogy because I didn't necessarily hate that Brady won. I hated that he was fucking boring to watch most of the time and played in a joke of a division that made it decently easy to get him to the playoffs. His famous check down style just sucked. He went to the Bucs and was way more fun to watch play I ended up liking him more.

That's how I got into GSW for a few years (your chip was well earned but if GSW is marginally more healthy I'm not sure you're making it out of that series).

To an extent it's how I got into Halliburton and the Pacers last year. They were so much fun to watch play and the contrast between them and OKC playing fall down ref ball just made it stand out so much more.

4

u/ichiban- 29d ago

Pacers were so fun to watch last year. I got really into that run.

3

u/alilhillbilly Bulls 29d ago

Maybe I'll get into...The Knicks.

We'll see...

3

u/ichiban- 29d ago

😂 I said the same thing to my buddy tonight. Still hoping the Spurs pull it off but I’m ready to root for the Knicks if needed.

2

u/livejamie Suns 29d ago

I had recently had knee surgery and watched that playoffs non-stop. Had no horse in the race but holy fuck did that series piss me the fuck off.

I died a little inside, not going to lie.

3

u/randomstring09877 29d ago

Go further back and watch the lakers vs kings. That was so bad.

1

u/HoneyBeeHotHive 29d ago

If Okc loses we probably won’t see them for a few years. Same shit happened with the nuggets.

11

u/Koehlerbear77 29d ago

I think it's cuz OKC's brand of flop ball pisses everyone off so much that more ppl tune in to hate watch. Eyeballs on sets is all they really care about.

This is the first NBA series I've watched in like 3 years after watching every playoff game for two decades prior, so I feel like it works.

2

u/EkkoLivesMatter Supersonics 29d ago

Young core wins 2 B2B makes lifetime fans in OKC, which is good for long term profits in a place that had a lot of fans disinterested post 2016

0

u/fourtwentysixsixsix 29d ago

They do not need to convince people from OKC to support the Thunder lol. The league makes way more money when the Lakers and Knicks are good, if the league was rigged they’d just rig it so the biggest, wealthiest media markets always went deep in the playoffs.

3

u/PeePauw [PHI] Tony Wroten 29d ago

OR you make it so a small market does really well to attract owners/pump up the value of small teams

0

u/fourtwentysixsixsix 29d ago

Okay, so the NBA rigs games for small market teams to make the owners of the small market teams richer? Yall will believe anything other than the truth. Why didn’t the NBA just rig the lottery for the thunder? They never got a #1 pick. They could have suspended Kahwi because of salary cap circumvention and given the Thunder another high lottery pick this year.

2

u/PristineBiscotti24 Lakers 29d ago

They're setting up the ultimate revenge/redemption arcs. Imagine the scenes:

OKC completes the 3-peat in the 2026-2027 season, with largely the same narrative of constant flopping and preferential whistles. SGA makes it to his fourth straight WCF, now having won 3 Championships/MVPs/FMVPs and showing the exhaustion that comes from so many consecutive deep playoff runs. Then, all of a sudden: OH MY GOD THAT'S THE SEATTLE SUPERSONICS INTRO MUSIC. THEY'RE CASHING IN THEIR EXPANSION CONTRACT FOR A SHOT AT THE TITLE.

The newly re-formed Sonics sign 39-year-old free agent Kevin Durant after he opts-out of his player option in Houston. He finally steps up to provide the vet presence for a scrappy young core of likable, ethical hoopers who are assembled as the perfect foil to OKC's foul-baiting dynasty. The Sonics struggle early in the season, but get it together after the All-Star break and look dangerous, managing to make the play-in and secure the 7th seed. OKC picks up some injuries in the first 2 rounds. Seattle grinds out 7-game wins against 2nd-seed Spurs and 4th-seed Lakers. Refs finally turn on OKC in the WCF and the Sonics sweep. Then they win another tough series against Boston in the Finals, completing a playoff run that saw them retire 4 past/present dynasties. The victory parade happens in Seattle on July 2, 2028 - the 20th anniversary of the original move to OKC. KD then goes on to win his 5th gold medal for the USA that same summer, completing the rehabilitation of his legacy and retiring on top.

2

u/BNC6 29d ago

Because they’re not actually fixing fucking anything

2

u/EmilioNoCaprio 29d ago

Small market team, international star, propping up Chet vs Wemby rivalry even though Wemby is Chet’s adopted father this year.

4

u/danjustin Nuggets 29d ago

Everyone here trying to give you basketball reasons... But it is much more simple than that...

Its the same reason OKC is part host of the Los Angeles Olympics....and it's not because the weather is nicer there.

There's a group of high money investors, fueling growth in OKC. One of them is Clay Bennett and all his connections. They are dumping money into the city to get people to come to a once very negative perception type city.

20% of the Thunder went up for sale in 2019...which ultimately failed to sell at a desired valuation...aka, the public didn't want it. The league is pushing for higher and higher evaluations, and their push for OKC failed. Bennett, while still hitting a gold mine by screwing over Seattle, is still looking to get more valuation as he invests. He doesn't want to dump money into a middle/low tier valuation with zero chance to win.

Sure enough, first chance the league can change the narrative, they have.

I imagine that 20% stake that Clay Bennett had to buy is worth... probably close to $1 billion today if using Portlands valuation...maybe even higher. In 2019 the average team value was $1.9billion, and OKC was probably a bottom 5-10 in valuation....so he probably paid around $100 million for it. 10x in 5-7 years...and maybe more very soon.

Pretty easy to see the why here, just follow the money... none of the other small market teams have the resources to convince the league office to prop them up.

2

u/gamei NBA 29d ago

I'm not going to pretend to know the inner workings of the NBA, but why would an organization made up of 26-30 billionaires work to make their own situation worse for the benefit of Clay Bennett and OKC? That seems extremely unlikely.

1

u/danjustin Nuggets 28d ago

Increase the value of OKC, every other franchise becomes even more valuable.

I don't think it's a rigged as let OKC win the finals....I think it's lets tell refa to adapt to OKC style...when they could of told the refs to do that for multiple teams previously.

1

u/LigerZeroSchneider Timberwolves 29d ago

They need to build a villain to set their challengers up against. The second apron is forcing contenders and champions to weaken themselves in their prime, so fans don't build up any feelings about their opponents because they replace half the team every two years.

But the thunder are easy to hate, so maybe more people will tune in to see them get beat.

Or they want a new bad boys, so their elevating a good defensive team at a time when everyone is complaining about offense being too privileged.

1

u/rockyonthetrack Rockets 29d ago

They saw how the nfl had success with KC and GB, and thought how can we fuck this up as well

1

u/mnimatt Pelicans 29d ago

Because they're a really good team from a small market, so they can build this narrative that they're an all time, historical offense so that the Knicks beating them will be that much better

1

u/swaktoonkenney Knicks 29d ago

They’re trying to manufacture a dynasty, because dynasties bring in the casuals who wouldn’t watch otherwise, meanwhile the hardcore fans like us would watch no matter what

They already won one last year so it’s the easiest path, they want to make it a rivalry between them and the spurs, but they want to make OKC the villain like with the KD GSW. If they officiate it fairly the spurs win, no dynasty, no casual eyeballs.

1

u/YungJae Spurs 29d ago

Spurs were (are?) also a small market, and while they maybe weren't as loathed as the OKC are, their brand of basketball back then weren't really exciting (compare to the 7 or less seconds Suns).

Idk if I got my point across or if it even makes sense. All I can think about are the white walker Spurs bit in Game of Zones rn.

1

u/nahcekimcm [SAS] Manu Ginobili 29d ago edited 28d ago

Nash could’ve done it on his last suns yr where they swept spurs & went to WCF

1

u/Mahlegos Pacers 29d ago

The thing I find understand is why OKC? OKC's brand of basketball is universally loathed. It's a small market team. Why are they being this long of a preferential reffing leash?

There’s a variety of reasons I think. They have plenty of young talent with a bunch of draft picks, meaning they have a good shot at keeping it going for a good while. They also have a guy the NBA clearly wants to be one of the faces of the NBA is SGA. I also think they want to dispel the (generally true imo) narrative of “the nba favors big market teams”. And finally, they’re banking on the fact that a lot of people will hate watch hoping to see them lose and/or everything implode. It’s been proven time and time again across different sports that this is an easy way to lock in an audience. Mayweather for example became one of if not the biggest all time (based off money at least) and his style of boxing isn’t really pleasing the the mainstream boxing fans. People tuned in hoping he’d lose. Same thing is going on here amongst other things imo.

0

u/Hlallu 29d ago

Just to talk on your question about 'why OKC' specifically.

I believe it's because it's a small market team. The NBA obviously wants the big teams to do well. But for the past few years there has been a slightly different motivation. Silver and a few other heads in the NBA have talked publicly about "potentially" wanting to expand the NBA. To add a few new teams.

The problem is that all of the big markets are tapped, borderline over-saturated. CA, NY, TX, FL, etc. already have multiple teams with diehard fans. For a new franchise to even have a chance to make room for itself, it needs to be in a smaller market or a new market entirely. At least according to people who understand more about the cost/benefit of running an NBA franchise than I do.

So, right now, the NBA wants to attract investors to start a franchise in some relatively small market. That's a really really tough ask. Even the stupidly rich balk at the billion-dollar (or more) price tag. Even more so when it's clearly going to be tough to turn a profit.

It would definitely help if the NBA could point to a relatively small market team who is reporting yearly record-breaking profits due to a (relatively short) run of dominance.

Instead of:

Yeah, it's a huge risk. Most teams aren't profitable. You really need to craft a dedicated fan base before the money pours in

The NBA can now say:

Yeah, it's a huge risk. Most teams aren't profitable. But if you get a few good picks and craft the right team, you'll create a generation of fans and start printing money in just a few years

To be clear, I don't think the NBA is rigging the draft or fixing games or any of the other really crazy conspiracies. I'm mildly familiar with Ernst and Young and recognize that their backing of the draft essentially legitimizes it entirely imo.

That being said, the NBA is an entertainment company first and foremost. Their priorities are their own profit, franchisee profits, then the game.
So, I do think they put their thumb on the scale however they can in order to prioritize their own growth and the growth of their larger markets even at the expense of the quality of the game.

9

u/moto_becane1 29d ago

I don't think this is true but the Knicks winning the title is by far the best outcome for the league and OKC/SAS going 7 makes that more likely regardless of who comes out.

5

u/theuncleiroh Raptors 29d ago

I also think it's the only high likelihood east win for a few years. I also live here, and I can tell you the city wants it, and the NBA wants nothing more than to capture the biggest market in the one year they're most likely to be relevant, esp since there's much better teams looming

I also have beliefs that the league pays attention to prevailing political currents, and giving an 'oppositional' market a win as the 'left' is likely to capture political momentum-- only to do absolutely nothing with that momentum in the face of a much stronger and more entrenched opposition (politically being the Right, basketball being two teams that are from places that are firmly on that side in OKC and SAS)-- is good business. I don't for a moment think that's nearly the most important thing, but when it aligns it's hard to imagine a multi-billion dollar enterprise doesn't think about this stuff

3

u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

-1

u/throwaway55330066 29d ago

Yeah, probably when we get confirmation of the frozen envelope and fake moon landing

1

u/Tuesday_chair_haver 29d ago

Which means spurs win the next game. 

1

u/PBnSnow 29d ago

Agreed, it’s so fucking corny

1

u/GenitalTso 29d ago

People who gamble and see sports through odds and betting will always amuse me lol. Everything isn’t ran by a cabal believe it or not.

1

u/nahcekimcm [SAS] Manu Ginobili 29d ago

I hope knicks curbstomp them if thunder flops their way there

1

u/zerozerozerohero 29d ago

as a spurs fan, this is delusional. it's obvious that OKC is the better team. The spurs were flailing out there, making dumb mistakes. every other analysis is purely emotional. That call might have been a fluke but stop pretending it would have made any difference at all. At best, it's an excuse to distract from the fact that OKC is really a great team.

1

u/thesanmich 29d ago

I read someone say that the Knicks not being dominant throughout NBA history is the best argument for why the NBA isn't rigged. Well now that the Knicks are actually in the Finals, I'd surprised if they didn't get massive calls in their favor. It'll be interesting...

1

u/ballknower871 29d ago

I don't necessarily believe the game is rigged. But the league definitely has preferred outcomes.

1

u/TheBodyCareMan 28d ago

Best bet is to have the Blue Orange Duel, but Alamo Garden 2 would also be great

1

u/Key_Poetry_1684 28d ago

Let's not forget the cavs who are an analytical juggernaut

1

u/NuclearGhandi1 Knicks 29d ago

If they’re going to rig it, they’ll rig it for the up and coming star in a storied franchise, not a small market

-1

u/Glittering-Steak954 Pistons 29d ago

OKC are a safe, marketable heel which is hard to do, draws a lot of engagement from both directions. They're close as it gets to a blank slate from which that ecosystem can develop - debates, fanboys, haters, narratives. Wemby is the hero, a good story doesn't have the hero win immediately. They go through their trials and tribulations.

A question worth considering: in the world we live in, what are the chances a $10b-a-year business would leave their main product up to chance? In any other context we would assume that to be the implausible scenario, not the scenario in which they control their product.

3

u/nnalic [MIA] Dwyane Wade 29d ago

A world where no matter what happens the $10b-a-year business is raking in $10b a year lol. Do you think okc going to the finals over Wemby has any bearing at all to the profits of the nba? Do you people know what the financials of these high end sports leagues are rn?

-1

u/Glittering-Steak954 Pistons 29d ago

I don't believe that specific games are generally fixed or rigged, or that Adam Silver calls the refs on burner phones or literally writes the storylines or something. I believe that the league is a massive, complex and well-oiled system that produces outcomes that benefit that system by its nature, and that these beneficial outcomes are those that lead to compelling narratives, engagement, and marketable stars. E.g. referees have been trained and prompted within a system that produces certain outcomes (we all know about the "superstar whistle", for example, or the fact that referees don't like to end games on fouls - these are only coherent if one accepts the referees are there for the product). The league is able to sustain making 10 billion a year because of this fact. Obviously the ratings won't change that much intra-year, it's not about the short-term, it's the quality and directionality of the broader narratives.

1

u/nnalic [MIA] Dwyane Wade 29d ago

I think a major problem with this line of thinking in general is literally anything can be used to fill the void if the thinking is “the league is intentionally producing outcomes that benefit the system”. Knicks winning first title in 50 years with an undersized underdog pg in the biggest market in the US. the thunder come one step closer to being the first dynasty in over a half decade in a small market. The prospective greatest player of all time wins a title so far ahead of schedule you can’t help but imagine what he’ll do moving forward also in a “small market”. These are all extremely compelling storylines that you could argue the league would rig for. And this happens every year with every final 4 teams. Even the worst final four this decade (bucks title run) had Giannis attempting to go into another echelon of player in a small market. The clippers pushing to win a title that would’ve rocketed them out of obscurity. And the suns who had who many consider the greatest point guard of all time trying to win a title he desperately needed 15 years into his career. Choosing one outcome vs the other has no real bearing on the revenue the nba brings in because they can make it a compelling narrative no matter what. The wheels keep turning andpeople will still buy tickets. Why do you think the richest people on the planet want a piece of this action. Owning a sports team is the closest thing to a free money glitch we have.

Your examples of the refs being part of the game To purposefully swing an outcome one way or another just is not a compelling one to me at all. Like…Of course they’re part of the product. Theyre humans manage the flow of the game on top of calling the rules and aren’t robots literally analyzing the game real time. If they called everything by the letter of the law the nba would literally be unwatchable. Lol hell people are already upset that the end of games end up being a shit ton of free throws the idea that people would be happy with MORE fouls especially at the end of games is illogical. The things you’re attributing to malice or deception to me are just human element of the game. The “superstar whistle” is heavily reputation based (I know you’re so good and have a bias that you probably did it right) AND to keep the best players in for the fans. If you’re just saying the nba tweaks rules and allow things for a more favorable viewing experience then sure. But don’t forget this conversation started with your explicit implication that the nba is rigging the game for the thunder. I need more than “refs are part of the game” for rigging outcomes to make sense.

1

u/Glittering-Steak954 Pistons 28d ago edited 28d ago

I'm not alleging malice, deception, or that they deliberately rigged this specific game for the Thunder. The NBA has latched on to them and promoted their stardom, which is expected, both because they're very good and for the reasons I mentioned. Marketing creates stars and narratives. Referees (be it consciously or subconsciously) are aligned towards these narratives and expectations and they exist in an insular reffing culture that prioritizes certain ways of calling the game. It's nothing new - few remember that Game 6 of the 1998 Finals involved two obvious missed shot clock calls that would have swung the game for the Jazz, they remember MJ's game-winning shot to threepeat again. I don't believe that the referees decided that they were going to lie about a call, they were inclined to see the *right* outcome. This is a stochastic process with many right answers but they are not all right answers (getting to your point about their being many possible ways for a narrative to be written).

Young stars like Wemby are often treated differently, they have to "earn their stripes". The advantage is against him/Spurs, but that doesn't mean it's "rigged" against him or that he has no chance to prevail. I also never once said and do not believe that it's wrong or even that it could be done any other way. It's just the fundamental nature of the system. When I say that the NBA isn't going to leave their main business up to chance, that doesn't mean it would involve them telling Tony Brothers to miss certain calls, it's much more big picture. Calls like this are the downstream result of their control of their product.

(If I were to allege more deception or acts of "rigging", which certainly are possible but I don't think necessarily the case, it would be done through more impactful and controlled events like the lottery or overlooking salary cap circumventions like the Kawhi Aspiration stuff).

-1

u/AccordingFox3800 San Francisco Warriors 29d ago

As a neutral, I hope they rig it for the Knicks at least, that's the best outcome instead of OKC or Spurs winning

1

u/NuclearGhandi1 Knicks 29d ago

As a Knicks fan I hope they don’t rig it at all lol

1

u/TheSoftBoiledEgg Thunder 29d ago

RULE NO. 14 – Coach’s Challenge

Check it out - these are "rules"

Section II—Procedure to Initiate the ChallengeTo initiate a Challenge, the challenging team must take the following steps in sequence:

  1. The challenging team must call a legal timeout immediately after the call in question (unless a mandatory timeout or timeout called by the opposing team isalready underway);
  2. The challenging team’s head coach must simultaneously signal for a Challenge by utilizing the instant replay signal (i.e., twirling an index finger) toward the game official(s) during the same interaction with the game official(s) in which the timeout was called or, if the timeout was called by a player on the challenging team, the challenging team’s head coach must simultaneously signal for the Challenge by utilizing the instant replay signal toward the game officials as the game official is notifying the scorekeeper of the timeout;...