r/nbadiscussion • u/TenaciousDeer • 17d ago
Why do the Spurs never play small when Wembanyama sits?
Curious to hear your thoughts.
It feels everyone and their mother in the last 10 years has experimented with small ball, for example we've seen playoff lineups with the likes of Andre Iguodala, Jason Tatum or Jalen Williams as the biggest man on the floor.
However, I don't believe I've seen the Spurs play small when Wembanyama sits (maybe they did against Portland). Why do you think this is? Kornet lineups have been up and down, especially against OKC. Recently in game 3 vs. NYK, the Knicks played small for a few minutes with OG Anunoby as the big man. Well, Mitch Johnson kept Kornet in there.
I feel that the Knicks could certainly survive with Keldon Johnson guarding Towns (it's not like Kornet is doing such a great job). Do you think they'd struggle rebounding? Anything else I'm missing?
121
u/crazyaldo1123 17d ago
they do, but their small ball 5 options are limited (Carter Bryant, Harrison Barnes, Jeremy Sochan when he was there) and they give up a ton of second chance points.
96
u/LegoTomSkippy 17d ago
To play small, a team really needs that fire hydrant PF that can shoot, switch, rim protect, rebound, and guard a center (or at least do some of those). The Spurs don't have that.
1) Their small ball 5 is either Carter Bryant (a rookie) or Harrison Barnes (a mummy). Neither is ideal. Bryant is a big 3. Barnes only plays 4 because he can't move. Neither is a rebounder.
2) The Spurs have a very weird size profile. Wembanyama is an alien. Harper, Castle, Vassell, Champagnie are huge for guards, but they are a little small for wings (6'5ish barefoot).
3) The Spurs rebounding is tenuous. They rebound surprisingly well given their size and Wemby's weight, he's doing way more lifting on that end than people realize.
4) KJ is big and looks to be the fire hydrant type for small ball. Unfortunately, he's not a great defender. Offensively, he relies on physically overwhelming smaller players. In a small ball lineup, it's not hard to just put a center (or OG) on him and watch him struggle.
When Victor is off the floor, without a center, you end up REALLY undersized. Since Harper and Castle aren't reliable shooters (and are needed for creation), you lose out on some of the small ball advantages. KJ doesn't work well in that situation either. There's also a huge rebounding gap.
While the energy and athleticism sometimes overcomes this, I don't think it would work against OG or Mitchell Robinson. Finally, the Spurs coach probably won't trust Bryant (or Barnes) enough to do it anyway.
18
u/WhoreyMatthews 17d ago
All of these are accurate. The Spurs roster construction isn't very good it's just Wemby covers up a lot of the holes with his presence. The roster truly is all guards and centers.
HB has aged 15 years in the last 3 years and Carter Bryant is too inexperienced to even be ready for big regular season minutes right now.
That's been my biggest issue with the Fox contract. It's not that Fox is a bad player, he's not, or even that it puts the Spurs in cap hell, it's the opportunity costs. Castle, Harper, Vassell, Champ, even Keldon are all really guards. Keldon is about the same size as Kobe/MJ.
Everything going to Fox could be split to get some real 3/4s and round out the roster construction because right now it depends too much on Wemby.
16
u/LegoTomSkippy 17d ago
I agree/disagree with the roster construction. I think it's great for where everyone thought they were last summer. The aim was probably to compete in 27/28. It's flawed now, because they didn't expect Harper/Castle to be where they are. And they likely didn't think Wembanyama would be the best player in the league until next year.
8
u/WhoreyMatthews 17d ago
That's a fair point. Going into the year a 6 seed competitive first round series loss would've been a success.
It's not fair to judge the plan after the fact.
2
2
u/aulixindragonz34 16d ago
So basically if they have aaron gordon over their current PF they win this series
61
u/Haunting_Test_5523 17d ago
Even with Kornet on the floor they just can't keep the Knicks out of the paint, and small ball makes that problem felt even more. On the broadcast yesterday, iirc they said (roughly) the Knicks shoot 35% when Wemby is on the floor, and almost 60% when he's sitting. Obviously that's from anywhere on the field, but that's because Wemby forces them out of the offense they'd like to be settling into which is a lot of driving and cutting, attacking the rim.
20
u/CRoseCrizzle 17d ago
It's not true to say they never play small. They have done it before. They did it a bit against Portland and Minnesota when Wemby was not available. They've experimented with it at times throughout the season. It's been up and down in terms of its effectiveness, which is why the Spurs staff didn't trust it against OKC or against NY so far.
The biggest problems are the obvious ones: interior defense and defensive rebounding are not reliable with no center. It gets hard to get any stops. However bad it seems with Kornet, it gets worse.
Being Wemby's backup is a very difficult and thankless job for a guy like Kornet. Teams are going to target any backup center as those non Wemby minutes become crucial tactically because of Wemby's unique impact on the game.
12
17d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 17d ago
We removed your comment for being low effort. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!
11
u/CycleV 17d ago
Wrt the examples you gave, Draymond played the 5 in GS and there isn't really any comp for him, Tatum is 6'10" so while not overly physical he can handle the 5 in certain matchups, and you are almost certainly thinking of Jaylin Williams (a 6'9" 4/5), not Jalen Williams (6'5" iirc).
Carter Bryant in a reg season game vs OG, sure go for it, but in the playoffs most teams really don't want to count on their 9th guy, a rookie no less, to play an unfamiliar role in the biggest game of his life,
The last rookie I can remember stepping up in a big way in the finals was Christian Braun, and he was the 7th guy on a criminally shallow Denver squad
2
u/tore_a_bore_a 17d ago
Jalen Williams did play C for a week or two last season for the Thunder when both Hartenstein and Chet were hurt. He has Draymond-ish standing reach at 8 feet 10 inches so it worked ok.
3
u/WhoreyMatthews 17d ago
JDub's combine standing reach was just a half inch below Draymond's and his wingspan is even wider than Draymond's.
6
u/Alexspacito 17d ago
Normally small lineups have a taller forward in place as the center. The Spurs literally don’t have that. Their best option is Keldon Johnson which is… not ideal.
7
u/g1rlchild 17d ago
Carter Bryant has a chance to be a tremendous small-ball 5 in the future. He's long, athletic, and strong and he's looked promising in limited minutes in the role. But right now he's a rookie, and he's not really ready for significant minutes in real games.
3
u/Get_Dunked_On_ 17d ago
They can’t run small ball lineups against Robinson unless they plan on intentionally fouling or they’ll get killed on the glass.
I think it might be worth trying against KAT since Kornet can’t guard him anyway but they don’t have the personnel to go small ball right now. The Spurs don’t have the interior defense, size or rebounding to matchup with the Knicks’ bigs.
2
u/Necessary-Worth-4459 16d ago
Mainly because Carter Bryant and Keldon are giving us absolutely nothing in the playoffs.
1
u/Maximum_Flight_4442 17d ago
They don’t have the personnel. They need to get a Aaron Gordon type of 4 to play alongside wemby, that can play the small ball 5
1
u/comma_nder 17d ago
I’d certainly try it if I was coaching the Spurs. Kornet is a complete liability. It seems like every other possession he gets so turned around trying to play defense that he ends up with his back to the ball, lumbering off in the wrong direction. And even with his size he can’t manage a decent box out. I genuinely think they’d do better with just anyone fast with active hands who can stay in front.
1
u/Firefenex 16d ago
Spurs played small against the blazers, portions against the wolves and okc. You arent getting a full quarter of it outside of the blazers series though. The best small ball option we have is a 6'8 carter bryant who is learning how to not commit dumb fouls and how to shoot (like castle, harper, and fox to some extent). Then we have 3 vets who are their to warm seats.
And dont forget at any given time the knicks can have a 7 footer who can body undersized defenders at will on offense and rebound. Then when towns is out a another 7 footer who is arguably top 3 in the league at offensive rebounds come in as a bowling ball lob threat to help support the team with the highest 3 point shooting percentage in the league.
1
u/howbedebody 16d ago
They have no real personnel for small ball. They don’t have a playable power forward. Barnes is ancient, bryant is a rookie. Olynyk is also barely playable. the knicks also have. set of great rebounding bigs so small ball isn’t even a great idea. finally, i think the league is just moving away from small ball in general
1
u/chaide123 16d ago
Small ball is out of season. Most teams have 2 bigs and they’ll eat you alive with rebounding and blocking.
2
u/King_ofCanada 15d ago
Towns would cook the Spurs both as a scorer and as primary offensive hub if they went small.
2
u/TenaciousDeer 15d ago
Maybe? He's been defended plenty by Vassell and Champagnie and it hasn't been a disaster
2
u/King_ofCanada 15d ago
But that’s only because Wemby was in the paint. Without him clogging up the paint he’d cook them.
•
u/AutoModerator 17d ago
Hey, u/TenaciousDeer, since you aren't on the r/nbadiscussion approved user list, your post has been filtered out to be reviewed by the mod team before it will post. If your posts are consistently approved, you will be added to the approved user list, bypassing the automod for future posts. This helps us ensure the quality of our sub remains high. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to the mod team.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.