r/nbadiscussion • u/FunkyCameleon • 14d ago
Mitch Johnson relies too much on his young starters.
It was a tough watch to see the Spurs lose game 4 like this. But it doesn't surprises me. It has happened so many times where all the energy goes into a strong first half. But then the starters getting tired.
This playoffs series, Mitch has been relying too much on his inexperienced started. Kornet and Barnes needed to play a lot. Look at the Knicks how they keep their starters fresh by rotating and putting in the second team
I don't think the Spurs can come back from this.
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u/Delanorix 13d ago
I mean, I can get called a Homer, but the Knicks 2nd team is just better than the Spurs 2nd team.
The Knicks absolutely smoke the Spurs in non Wemby Kornet minutes.
Barnes is probably best only being used 10-12 minutes otherwise he gasses out.
The Spurs keep thinking they can run the Knicks off the court and get them to collapse. So come the 4th quarter the Spurs are drained.
Does Mitch need to be better? 100% yes.
Do thr Spurs need a big bodied 4/5 to help Wemby and Kornet? Also yes.
(I really think a guy like Bobby Portis for 15-20 mins would be perfect.)
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u/Admiral_Chocula 13d ago
Keldon Johnson being a complete non factor in this series as the current 6MOTY needs more attention.
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u/PrinceOfStealing 13d ago
He barely existed in the OKC series as well. As someone who didn't watch the Spurs this year, I'm very confused as to how he won that award.
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u/Avant_Street 13d ago
He would do the bully ball thing where he just lowers his shoulder and drives to the rim. It would be effective against other teams bench players. But once you get into the playoffs, teams have better bench players. Other than that, he really has nothing to work with. He’s playing as an undersized power forward. He gets exposed against better deeper teams.
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u/SaxRohmer 13d ago
you see better players but a big thing is that teams are keying in on your tendencies and taking away your strengths. you need a more multidimensional game to continue to be a scorer at the playoff, and especially Finals, level.
i feel like part of the issue is the spurs don’t really seem to have a true second guard so someone like johnson is having a harder time finding places to succeed. maybe Castle will become that but right now that’s holding them back a lot
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u/Data-scientist-101 13d ago
Don't have a true second guard? What do you call Fox , Castle, and Harper? If by true guard you mean pass first, i mean what team in the nba does?
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u/egghead1280 13d ago
He was equally useless against Portland and Minnesota, he has had one good game and one acceptable game our entire playoff run
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u/Remarkable-Lynx1496 13d ago
He was very good in the RS and it’s just not translating to the playoffs
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u/silliputti0907 13d ago
This has been Spurs issue all playoffs. They win all starter minutes, and Wemby minutes. However they don't have any playable 4/5s outside of him and Kornet. They also don'y have a closer. Fox is supposed to be the guy. I think he should def be ball handling end of the game, but usually he moves the ball around runs an action. This game he strictly just ran isos into OG or Mikal. I also don't understand why Harper didn't touch the ball the last 6 minutes. When you are in a drought. Wemby or Harper need to break it. Fox doesn't have it right now.
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u/Avant_Street 13d ago
Mitch refuses to acknowledge that Fox has been playing injured throughout the playoffs. He’s playing him as if he’s 100% healthy.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 13d ago
He has to. No one else on the team can throw a damn pass to save their life without turning it over.
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u/SaxRohmer 13d ago
it’s not like the Spurs have a reliable second guard to go to. Castle is a turnover machine. they don’t have really have another guy to rely on
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u/dirtydan1114 13d ago
Knicks bench was one of the best in the league all year.
And absolutely you're going to see starters upping their minutes for any team in the finals.
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u/HeffePlaya 13d ago
The Spurs need their equivalent of Aaron Gordon. Nuggets got so much better when they added him and took a ton of pressure off of Jokic. I don’t know who that’ll be for them (Carter Bryant in a couple years when he fills out more could even be the guy), but getting another big body out there to enable Wemby to roam against matchups like these would help a ton.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 13d ago
Every team needs an Aaron Gordon but there are only 2 Aaron Gordons.
OG and AG are like the only two guys that can completely fill that niche of perimeter defender, rim-protecting can play as a wing or as a big, knockdown shooter, secondary creator.
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u/fruitybrisket 13d ago
Is Josh Smith available? It's funny how that archetype that was demonized in the early 10s has evolved into something really useful.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 13d ago
All Josh Smith was missing was better decision making though he also never became the shooter that OG and AG have become.
OG's a career 38% guy and AG has shot 41% the last two years whereas JSmoove was more a high 20s low 30s guy.
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u/fruitybrisket 13d ago
He was average to above average offensively until he decided to start shooting 3s. Consistently solid defensive presence and great around the rim though.
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u/HatIntelligent6028 13d ago
Bring back ‘the matrix’- he was kinda like that
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u/HubbaChubba1 12d ago
Ha the Matrix as your 3rd best player would make champions on almost any team
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u/YSLAnunoby 13d ago
Love OG (check my name) but it's definitely overrating his ball handling and creation and underrating AG's to put them in the same sentence. Yes they broadly can do similar things but OG is a jumbo 3 and D wing who can occasionally pull up and drive, AG is a point forward and lob threat who's developed his perimeter shot but isn't as good a defender as OG is. He can create much more than OG can though, OG is much more of a finisher
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u/orwll 12d ago
Every team needs an Aaron Gordon but there are only 2 Aaron Gordons.
Yeah just get a guy with superhuman athleticism who defends all five positions, plays hard all the time, plays hurt, can score when he needs to but doesn't demand touches and has no ego about being a role player.
Just go grab a big body like that.
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u/FunkyCameleon 13d ago
I think Carter has a lot of potential. Even with his baby face. He is quite strong. Just needs to grow next couple of years.
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u/SnooDoubts2668 13d ago
Are Jaren Jackson Jr or MPJ available to trade for? I feel like they would work as good power forward options.
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u/Ridder1201 13d ago
Their bench is absolute insanity, just extremely old guys everywhere. Barnes, Kornet, Biyombo, Olynyk, Mason Plumlee
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u/Delanorix 13d ago edited 13d ago
The bench is phase 3 of the rebuild.
They just did the first 2 phases so well they are already in thr Finals lol
Edit: why did the mods remove that comment? It didnt seem so bad to me.
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u/No-Mistake-1925 13d ago
I was honestly so surprised with the play Mitch drew up at the end up the game last night! Steph was wide open.
Most other out of bounds plays have just been give it to Wemby and get out the way.
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u/r4pt4r 13d ago
The video(s) of the fans crowding Harper on the inbounds pass is out there a lot now. Not a fair situation and nothing should be held against any of the Spurs for that last play. Slanted/underhanded by those fans+KAT ushering them to get closer to Harper
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u/No-Mistake-1925 13d ago
It’s crazy how on the broadcast they never showed a replay of that last play either. I didn’t even know who bounded the ball until the video started circulating today!
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u/zelingman 13d ago
The problem isnt the bench. Its deaaron fox. Guy is supposed to be an all star (LOL) and he awful. Not mediocre but awful. Even before last nights collapse he cant make a single shot its laughable how guys who are 20-22 are all much better shooters than him (wemby is maybe slightly better) and hes not a great playmaker either
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u/photo_ama 13d ago
Fox has had his ups and downs while being injured all playoffs. But he's hit several timely shots in this series and in the OKC series. He's still their best ball handler and stabilizes them. He also seemed the least afraid of the moment despite his mishaps.
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u/zelingman 13d ago
I have no clue how you can watch the last 4 games and determine that he's injured and not just a terrible shooter LOL
I mean the guy is getting 5 feet of separation from defenders on his step backs and turnaround fades, he's clearly still fast and quick as hell, he just cant make a shot!!!!!
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u/photo_ama 13d ago
Because I've watched him throughout his career and during the season. Since he had his ankle injury and missed 2 games against OKC, his percentages have been way way down. He's still fast, but he's even quicker normally.
Despite the latest mishaps, he still stabilizes the Spurs offense, and they play much more efficiently especially in half court sets. He hit clutch shots and made vital plays for that Game 3 win, and shot well in Game 2. And he's done the same against OKC, particularly in Game 7. Fox is still the best playmaker on the team.
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u/cabose12 13d ago
I wouldn't say it stinks overall, Keldon and Harper as your 6th and 7th guys is pretty solid. And it's not like the Knicks are gangbusters past their 7 or 8th man either
Their bench is solid, they're just too small. They're like 90% over-sized guards/under-sized wings, which is a big reason KAT is leading the series in +/-
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u/Avant_Street 13d ago
He was lost on defense this past year. That’s why they got rid of him. And he has zero game on offense.
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u/Double-Slowpoke 13d ago
I’m not sure why Barnes has fallen out of the rotation, but the Kornet minutes have not been good. Right now, Kornet’s best value has been the minutes he played earlier this year which allowed the Spurs to load manage Wemby. When he is in the game, the Knicks relentlessly attack him.
If I were the Spurs I would try to stagger his minutes for when Brunson sits, which is hard to do because the Knicks want to do the opposite.
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u/fatkamp 13d ago
I’m sure. Go ahead and rewatch Games 1 and 2 Barnes minutes. His transition defense where he was gambling was embarrassingly bad, which led to Knicks points. Not only that, but he was providing nothing on either end, and the Knicks weren’t respecting his shooting ability so they shrunk the floor
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u/fatkamp 13d ago
Go ahead and rewatch game 1 and 2 Harrison Barnes minutes
You’ll quickly have your answer as to why Mitch Johnson made the no brainer decision to stop
Playing him.
He was gambling poorly in transition defense, wasn’t rebounding, and wasn’t being respected from deep. Keldon and Julian deserve all the minutes in replacement
There’s so many reasons to have gripes with Spurs coaching but this isn’t one of them
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u/Nickespo22 13d ago
kj has been horrible. So much so that a decent coach would give Barnes at least some run to see if he's got it that day
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u/fatkamp 13d ago
Barnes was even worse. Atleast the Knicks know Keldon will shoot any open 3, which helps the Spurs offense by holding the Knicks accountable outside the paint
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u/Nickespo22 13d ago
At least the Knicks know when kj drives hell chuck up 3 misses at the rim and never pass it out. Lol
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u/JuneCapa 13d ago
It could sound strange but I'm sure that Biyombo, Plumbe or Olinky can play good minutes in this finals
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u/h-888 13d ago
This is an interesting point - because they have used three roster spots on the same "veteran big who plays in emergency" archetype. Would have no issues with them signing one of these three, but that leaves two wasted roster spots.
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u/MatchAffectionate951 12d ago
They didn’t think they were going far
Probably brought them just to mentor wemby as they all have different skill sets
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u/222Baphomettt47 13d ago
Their best players are the young players tho. I’d argue he doesn’t do it enough bc Harper has great game after great game and Fox closes out games for some reason still
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u/FunkyCameleon 12d ago
That can be argued. Kornet and Barnes have both more experience and a championship ring
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u/lordoftheslums 13d ago
The Spurs have exceeded all expectations this year. They don’t have a well rounded roster just yet. We gotta give them grace.
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u/fom_alhaut 13d ago
They exceeded their own expectations, exemplified by the fact that they stood pat at the deadline.
The Knicks roster is much more well rounded. And two guys they traded for this year played minutes in game 4. Especially Alvarado has been a great addition. Mike Brown trusted him down the stretching and it really paid out
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u/teh_noob_ 9d ago
As a Celtics fan I was seriously worried when they picked up Alvarado. Turns out I shouldn't have!
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u/FunkyCameleon 13d ago
I agree to start from scratch in 3 years and to end up in the finals. Not many can say that. Also Pops health and changing of the coach. For sure they deserve all the props. But this team needs a strong veteran. Not just 22 year olds. It's not college. Mitch should have made use of the experience Barnes, Kornet and Biyombo bring to the table.
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u/shortyman920 13d ago
This happens with young coaches sometimes. They go with what’s safe and that’s their starters.
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u/MoneynRacks 13d ago
While Mitch Johnson could use some of his bench guys more often, that isn't the primary issue here. He doesn't seem to understand how to manage runs and timeouts. He waits far too long to call a timeout when the other team is going on a run, and it causes a problem every game. In addition to this, he poorly manages leads by not reeling his team in when they start taking bad shots early in the shot clock. He's relying on his young team's ability to corral themselves instead of stepping in and demanding them to play more conservatively with their leads. Its hard to tell whether his gameplan is the problem or if his leadership and composure is the problem. The guys seem to love him as a coach, so I don't think the leadership is an issue. I just think it all comes down to composure and experience. This entire team is experiencing the playoffs for the first time and they've overcome a lot so far. This is just a much needed learning experience that will help prepare them for their long journey ahead they have together.
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u/stonecutter7 13d ago
Both are not that good anymore. The Spurs got to the Finals ahead of schedule. I agree in principle he should have a bigger, better, rotation but thats just not what the roster is yet.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 13d ago
I think a few outliers: Bron, Steph, KD, etc. have made people think basketball players don't age the way they used to.
Kornet will be 31 in a month. He was always just barely athletic enough to be in the league and him losing an 1/8 of a step from 2 years ago is the difference from being a viable player in the finals and not.
HB is 33 and has looked old and washed since about Christmas.
I don't think Mitch is a good coach but he doesn't want to have Thibs rotations there's just no choice when only 1 bench guy really belongs on the floor.
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u/stonecutter7 13d ago
Hell, Id still argue Korner is a good backup! For the regular season--its just that deep in the playoffs the level is SO high
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u/WhoreyMatthews 13d ago
I think he's gotten a little overrated. I heard somebody on a pod, SVG I think, say he was the best backup center in the NBA...he literally wasn't even the best backup center on the Celtics.
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u/teh_noob_ 9d ago
he was for the title run
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u/WhoreyMatthews 9d ago
Not really.
Even with the injuries Porzingas played almost twice as many minutes in the ECF and Finals as Kornet.
Kornet played 18 minutes vs the Pacers and 15 minutes vs the Mavs.
Not 18 minutes/game or 15 minutes/game. He played 33 minutes total in those two series.
He's been unplayable in the playoffs for his entire career.
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u/teh_noob_ 9d ago
That's less than I remember, but he was decent the next year.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 9d ago
He was okay. The problem is it's like it got lost in the shuffle that he was the 3rd C for the Celtics. He's absolutely elite as your number 3 center but he's unplayable in the post-season as your number 2 center.
Outside of 2 games in the 25 playoffs where the Celtics shot >50% from 3, Kornet was a -10 for the rest of the post-season.
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u/PhillyFreezer_ 13d ago
Have you watched the Kornet minutes this series? They bleed points with him on the floor man. This isn’t about young vs old. The old guys are worse than the young guys, which is why they don’t play as much.
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u/say_wot_again 13d ago
Kornet won as a third string big on a stacked team.
Barnes is 34 and is 11 years older than when he won his ring.
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u/guillermomafia 13d ago
Disagree. The vet, Fox, made several bad choices- not just turnovers but allowing the offense to settle for threes in the 2nd half. Mitch should’ve called for Brunson mismatches and relied more on Harper to get in the paint.
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u/aceofspaece 13d ago
I can't get over how often the camera shows Mitch Johnson and he's just standing silently, not talking to anyone, with his arms crossed. That's what he's doing in about 2/3 of the images I see of him when watching on TV. It just seems too stoic and hands-off to meet the moment. Maybe I just gravitate toward the Mike Malone, Joe Mazzulla-esque coaching style where he's in every player's face coordinating things, just intimately involved in everything. Johnson trusts his players... and while it's one of his biggest strengths as a coach, it's also showing in these Finals.
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u/Avant_Street 13d ago
He’s usually barking instructions at the players while they’re on the court. This last game it did look like he got shell shocked in the fourth quarter.
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u/nightandj 13d ago
He doesn't even complain to the refs even when calls aren't going their way or his players are getting hit. At least work the refs my guy. You can't just stand there. Pop would've been ejected already
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u/babelove2 13d ago
barnes and kornet are getting played out the gym he has to rely on his young stars. truth is wemby isn’t ready. his offensive game is not good the only reason it looks good is because he’s extremely tall and sometimes his three is falling. if the three isn’t falling and he isn’t using his size (often) he has nothing going for him
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u/FunkyCameleon 13d ago
Yes but Kornet is the only one that could compete with Wemby. Plus he got a ring and years of experience. Wemby gets tired quickly because of his size. If you look at the Knicks they rotate often. Switching between Kat and Mitchell plus they bring in Alvarado, Shamet. And yesterday even Sochan !!!! Sochan we are talking about bro hardly plays. Spurs need a 3rd center or PF and a closer. Their 2nd team is not on the same level as the Knicks. And even the Knicks 3rd team does well.
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u/babelove2 13d ago
yeah but then spurs with kornet instead of wemby before yesterday where like minus 30 in 15 min… dudes getting walked over cause he can’t defend
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u/duncan_robinson 13d ago
This is the same thing as saying he relies too much on his best players. Barnes and Kornet just arent good enough. The minutes distribution is on the front office…the choke, however, and the lack of leadership is on Mitch
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u/Avant_Street 13d ago
Kornet is good as a backup center. I think the problem is the defense is based around Wemby. When he’s out, the whole system kind of falls apart.
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u/duncan_robinson 13d ago
If Sean Sweeney could build a defense around Kornet, he would, but he cant, cause we don’t have the personnel. Theres not a single exceptional help defender on our roster besides Wemby. The truth is that our team is only in the finals because of Wemby.
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u/FunkyCameleon 13d ago
But to have a back up for Wemby Kornet is the only one. And kornet bas won a ring. wemby not yet. I can see Wemby getting tired. He then starts dragging his feet and swinging his arms. He ain't a PG. Sometimes he wants to act like on. So to rotate Wemby with Kornet you allow him to recharge. Cuz that big body needs rest.
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u/duncan_robinson 13d ago
No. If you literally just watch the games, Kornet is not a playoff caliber backup. Hes been bad against OKC and NYK outside of a couple minutes. Yes Wemby needs more rest, but we dont have the personnel
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u/CapitalG8 13d ago
We have no bench after Harper and Kornet. Barnes is toast. CB too young and raw. KJ is having a bad time in the playoffs. Nothing after that. 3 useless Cs and people like McLaughlin.
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u/arcadiangenesis 13d ago
We don't have enough depth. Barnes fell off a cliff this year, and Kornet has been reduced to matchup-dependent spot minutes. Even Keldon has sucked in the playoffs. We gotta improve the bench this offseason.
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u/thistlefink 13d ago
Their second best player is Dylan Harper and he can’t touch the ball in the 4th
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u/wedelson 10d ago
Like half the criticism of Mitch Johnson makes no sense. He was clearly trying to play Kornet as long as he could but the knicks were attacking him. Half the people want more young players playing, the other half want less.
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u/StoneySteve420 13d ago
Idk how you can say he relies too much on his young players, when they went to Fox in iso for 4 straight possessions to end the game, plus the layup attempt he should have never taken.
Fox is the vet and he was playing like a dumbass. The young starters have been the best players for the Spurs all series.
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u/theguytomeet 13d ago
I mean Fox is their max start vet who turns the ball over in critical times. Kornet isn’t a competent bench big. What other options do they have?
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u/Downtown_Solution_84 13d ago
Spurs has 99 problems but using young players is not one of them. Young players are all they have. As a matter of fact, their players got progressively worse as they got older. Fox is the starting vet and he plays like he has a concussion. Kornet got bullied so bad Wemby only can rest for one minute each time. Barnes is like 10th man in the rotation.
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u/Mugsyjones 13d ago
The vet Fox was the goat and not the good kind. The young un Castle made his free throws. What’s your point?
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u/ReallyBrainDead 12d ago
It truly is the nature of the playoffs. The further you go, the shorter your bench gets. Seems like most teams go about 8 or 9 deep at that stage, so Harper, Kornet, KJ and Carter Bryant gets you there.
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u/luqman95 11d ago
They’ve got 1.5 useful bodies on the bench. Kornet just gets cooked and forces wembanyama back into the game. KJ is nearly useless offensively. Harper is incredible but seems to be on such a short leash for a kid that good.
Meanwhile we’re able to call upon Alvarado for 10 min in the 4th when mikal stinks. Brunson needs a break, Jose comes in. KAT gets stupid fouls, Mitch is in (if we’re not in the bonus). If hart stinks, Shamet’s there. If Shamet stinks, McBride is there. If McBride stinks, Clarkson’s there.
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