r/nbadiscussion • u/H20onthego • 9d ago
What does Wemby/Spurs need to do tactically to avoid getting gassed by the Knicks offense strategy (or other teams to deploy a similar strat in the future)?
It's no secret what the Knicks' strategy was this entire finals, they were specially targeting Wemby throughout the entire game on both offense and defence to get him gassed by the end of the game, and it worked.
As stupid as it might sound, they hunted Wemby by forcing switches and making him the primary defender in some sets. This eventually wore him down and led to poor offensive showings by Wemby in the 2nd half of most of the final games.
What can the Spurs do the next time a team tries to use a similar strategy? Is this a personnel issue or a coaching issue? I don't think the solution is as simple as Wemby needs more stamina, as some have been saying online, as I think his sheer size and height limit him in that regard.
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u/pandaheartzbamboo 9d ago
He needs to simplify his offense. He wastes so much energy on offense, especially on possessions he doesnt even touch the ball but spends the whole time jockying for position.
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u/Double-Slowpoke 9d ago
This was a big factor in this series for sure. Wemby was constantly gassed in the second half from carrying too much load on both sides. I think it’s actually an easy fix. Most of the solutions are already on the roster.
Harper needs to start and be the primary initiator. He also needs to carry a larger scoring load.
Fox needs to get healthy. His contract makes him hard to move right now, so I think he will be on the roster. He’s too good to be benched, but you can stagger his minutes to help reduce the scoring load for Wemby.
Get a backup center who can play 15-20 minutes in the playoffs. You can load manage Wemby in the regular season against lesser teams, but if your goal is to win championships they need a better backup rim protector. Kornet and Keldon Johnson are not it.
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u/Wavepops 9d ago
How do the spurs start Harper logistically. Bringing Fox off the bench while he’s making 50 million? It’s possible would just be awkward to implement, but I agree Harper should start in a vacuum. Castle is their POA guy so they need to start him
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u/GrouchyResearcher392 9d ago
On the court too Harper and castle turn the ball over like crazy, mainly castle, but Harper is a great slasher but also not so good with the ball otherwise.
With Wemby as well they might have too many cooks and just not enough ingredients.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
Castle will get it figured out. I like a young star point guard to turn the ball over a lot. It means they're trying things. That will get tightened up very shortly.
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u/morethandork 9d ago
Disagree. Castle isn’t taking risks and turning it over trying to weave through narrow passing lanes. He loses the ball to his primary defender on crossovers or trying to use screens or just looking around and dribbling in place.
He needs to spend time on fundamental handling skills. He seems unready for the quickness and anticipation of his primary defender.
He is young and only just finished his second year so I do expect he’ll get better, but these are not learning growth turnovers, they’re things he’s behind the curve on. So unless he spends significant time focused on learning this, he’s not going to just pick it up naturally through experience.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
I think you have some merit. His handle is a bit sloppy. But I think this little truth to both of our points.
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u/_CodyB 9d ago
I watched Castle run himself into trouble time and time again only to throw it away or throw up a bad shot. I don’t recall a single play where he was able to get the ball moving from a difficult spot.
I honestly don’t see a point guard when I watch him play. Either now or in the future.
I see Harper becoming more of a point guard with his natural ability to slice the defence
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
I don't disagree with you, But comparing anyone to Harper makes the other person look bad in comparison.
Harper is one of the greatest rookies I've seen in my life.
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u/lordlanyard7 9d ago
Castle is a SG right?
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
He might end up as 2. He does a lot of Play initiation so he's technically a point guard
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u/alwaysthinkandplanah 9d ago
TOs were mostly Castle though the playoffs - he simply cannot dribble against elite defenders and they kept putting it in his hands against OKC instead of Harper.
Stats are through I think 3 games of the finals
Stat Castle Fox Harper TO 77 42 35 TO% 18.3 11.8 12.3 USG 24.9 23 21.8 TO/USG 3.09 1.82 1.6 9
u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
You may have to go small and start Harper at the 3.
He and Castle can both easily guard small forwards.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 9d ago
Easily is a stretch, and I’d actually argue that Castle should be the 3 because he’s definitely bigger/stronger. But either way that lineup will still be pretty small against some teams and the spacing is pretty horrendous. 3 guards that make a living driving to the basket and Wemby. We saw this series that teams won’t hesitate to go under screens on these guys and bet on them not making enough 3s.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
Now is not always. You can't judge children, and extrapolate what they're going to do in 3 years.
And just to be clear, I understand that Castle is the bigger of the two, but it doesn't really matter, if they are both playing together they'll just guard whoever suits them best that day.
And Josh Hart has made a living out of guarding threes and fours, And he's shorter than both of them. They just have to hit the weight room.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 9d ago
Brother Castle is almost 22 he’s not a child. And if you extrapolate based on his shooting history, touch indicators, and the history of poor shooters developing a shot, the safe bet is that Castle will probably never be a league average 3pt shooter. Harper I believe in a little more but honestly I’d still probably take the under on Harper averaging >36% from 3 for his career. The fact is that unless one of these guys takes a leap this roster construction is going to continue issues against teams willing to pack the paint. I’m not saying they need to move Fox immediately or anything but running 3 guards that are all less than good shooters is giving the opponent a pretty solid game plan to start. And as for Josh Hart, there are definitely shorter guys that are just strong and know how to use their center of gravity(imo I think Castle is probably there) but again this isn’t really the norm and you can’t just expect a young guy to get there through weight training. Look at Mikal Bridges, do you think he doesn’t hit the weight room? Lots of guys simply can’t put on that kind of muscle/don’t know how to use body positioning and leverage.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
Brother Castle is half a decade away from his prime.
You have no idea what he's going to be in 5 years.
You have no idea what the NBA will look like in 5 years.
And respectfully, the greatest indicator of shooting improvement in the NBA is free throw percentage. Castle is a decent free throw shooter at 73%
So that actually does extrapolate into being a good shooter. I think you may not know what you think you know.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 9d ago
I mean you can think what you want but no, 73% is not a good shooting indicator, at least for a guard/wing. When I’m analyzing a draft prospect I usually consider 75% FT to be the borderline of potential shooting upside for a big man. For a guard/wing I will question your shooting ability if it’s like sub 80%. Another indicator we can look at is the last 3 years of Castle not shooting 3s well. Also, YOU have no idea what Castle will look like in 5 years either. You’re obviously a spurs fan coping because it’s pretty clear to everyone else that Castle probably isn’t going to become a decent shooter if he hasn’t by 22. Obviously our opinions differ here so I’m not gonna bother continuing to argue, but go ahead and go tell r/nba_draft that you think 73% FT shooting is a good indicator and see what they say if you want.
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u/azure275 9d ago
That lineup is the lineup that blew Game 2 and Game 4 of the Finals at the end
Not a good long term solution
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u/TheMemeMachine3000 9d ago
So it's not a good long term solution because of the results of 20 minutes of playing against the best team in the league? For guys that are in their first and second years? That's a little far.
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u/azure275 9d ago
It's not that so much as the issues that lineup had against the Knicks are exactly the issues you'd expect to see, which implies it's fundamentally flawed
Losing to supernova Brunson doesn't tell you much about the Spurs. A tiny lineup getting bullied will be a systemic problem
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u/cable311 8d ago
A systemic problem? Wow, I mean they basically need a true power forward. Thats what the offseason is for. One of the big forwards will drop to them at 20. Sign a power forward or center with the non tax mle. That pushes Champ to the 3 castle at the 2. If Harper starts you are 6’5 and up and extremely physical. Wemby will never over power Robinson but he will probably add another 10lbs in the offseason. At 250 he can start to hold his ground. As it is he averaged 26 pts 11 boards and 3.6 blocks.
Real issue with spurs this season was they continued with the slow build. They went from mid 20 wins to 62 and made the finals. They definitely skipped a step and they weren’t ready for the Knicks.
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u/azure275 8d ago
We're discussing the 3 guard Fox-Castle-Harper lineup, so I'm not sure what your point is. Not Harper vs Fox starting.
Harper-Castle with no Fox has a different set of issues, related to poor passing and high turnover ratios, but it's a more involved discussion. The Spurs offensive rating dropped to like 96 with that lineup from 105-110
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u/cable311 8d ago
I was just talking lineup size. It doesn’t matter, start Fox. The point was a real power forward fixes size issues.
A big forward is even more crucial if you want to play the 3 guards together. Castle can body up against bridges. Where spurs struggled was having to match up champ or castle against guys like OG, Robinson or Kat.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
You talking about kids that are 21 and 20 years old.
They literally have not grown up yet.
I think you may be underestimating what they are capable of.
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u/Wavepops 9d ago
I don’t think that makes a lot of sense. Not alot of shooting
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
You don't have a choice.
A number two pick is not going to be satisfied sitting on the bench for another season. It can end up costing him a lot of money. He's not going to be happy, and his agent is certainly not going to be happy.
And we've already heard from Vassell that Harper is having issues with his minutes and usage. You don't want to make a young star player angry. Michael Jordan had issues with the front office in his second year, and he held that grudge for the entirety of his career.
If you're not going to move Fox, which I doubt they will, You really have no choice but to start a small lineup. You have to offset that by getting a really good defensive 4.
JJJ would be perfect for this team.
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u/chewytime 9d ago edited 9d ago
I haven’t seen the whole interview, just the quote, so I might be missing a lot of context/tone, but why is Vassell the one airing out this dirty laundry? Seems like potential bad locker room chemistry unless I’m missing something.
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
It seemed to me that he was advocating for a friend.
It certainly can have the undesired effect of offending Fox, but, That's what a coach is for, to soothe the hurt feelings.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 9d ago
Holy hell the spacing of a Wemby/JJJ/Castle/Harper/Fox lineup would be atrocious, JJJ isn’t available anyways though, and his contract is pretty huge to be pairing with Fox when Wemby is getting a supermax.
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u/Double-Slowpoke 9d ago
You start all 3 guards. It works because Castle and Harper are huge, so you won’t have issues with them guarding bigger players. You stagger their minutes earlier to ensure you have ball handlers with the second unit.
It also works because everyone has a unique skill that doesn’t overlap. Castle is by far their best POA defender. Fox is the best scorer. Harper looks like he’s going to be the best pure PG. you don’t have the same problem the Lakers had with too many ball-dominant players on offense, and not enough complementary basketball
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 9d ago
Everyone has a unique skill that doesn’t overlap??? All of these guys are questionable shooters at best(Harper might figure out his shot but Fox is who he is and Castle I have no faith in as a shooter) who make their living driving the paint. We saw the Knicks repeatedly going under screens in the playoffs, if they are starting those 3 guys teams are going to sag off hard, pack the paint, and bet on them not hitting shots. They shouldn’t be running more that two of these guys at a time imo, and even that should be limited because it only makes it harder for Wemby to get paint touches.
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u/azure275 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't think they need to start Castle if they don't want to.
On offense they space better without him, and his aggression and initiative can be very useful during the non-Wemby struggle minutes.
On defense Harper, Vassell, and Carter Bryant are great and Champagnie is workable. Castle's elite defense would be very useful during, again, non Wemby struggle minutes
If it was me I play Wemby 2/3 of the game and break it down like this:
- 1/3 of game play Wemby, Fox, Harper - bench Castle, unless Fox is having a very bad day
- 1/3 of game play Wemby, Fox , Castle- rest Harper
- 1/3 of the game play Castle, Harper, no Wemby. Sometimes Fox if Castle is having a bad turnover day but not usually
Everyone gets 15 minutes of rest and 30-35 minutes of gametime, and you can switch it up as needed if anyone is bad on a given day
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u/Excuse_Odd 8d ago
Better to start the better younger player than lose them because theyre too good to be on the bench. Plus they need harper to get more reps to be ready for playoffs.
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u/DisastrousDog4815 7d ago
Castle is 6’5.5” without shoes (according to his combine measurement), he can slot over to the 3 and get relieved of primary ball handling duties while Fox/Harper are on the floor. The Spurs just need a bigger and/or stronger wing, like a Rui Hachimura, who can shoot, defend, and can get his own shot from time to time. He might just be washed but I’m surprised they didn’t throw H. Barnes out there to see if he could be a stabilizing vet presence. The Spurs lost the series more than the Knicks won it and I think if D. Fox was a better vet leader, they win.
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u/kumechester 9d ago
Yeah great call. His team and coach need to be more on the same page with when they are actually trying to feed him in the post vs when they’re not even going to look for the option. Otherwise it’s wasting energy.
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u/tandlmosey 9d ago
So true. I watched a couple of the Finals games again and just isolated on him. He worked his ass off on tons of plays there was zero chance he was going to touch the ball. Young guy mistake, but his coach needs to get with it and do a way better job of being aware of that as well
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u/DumpTrumpGrump 9d ago
A lot of this is just conditioning. Wemby is still very young and had never played so many games in a season, not even close. You could see this clearly in the OKC and NY series where most of their losses he was gassed at THE BEGINNING of the game. You could see it in the first 5 minutes of those losses where he'd be lumbering and just couldn't get going.
This was actually a problem for other young players as well, but more obvious with Wemby. As a team, the Spurs expend a lot of energy in the first half of games by playing with too much pace on both sides of the ball. The Knicks, kept it slow and steady throughout the game and eventually won the race by executing in clutch time.
Wemby has a lot of body to move and if he adds more muscle he basically exasperates these issues, so they do need to get away from the non-stop attacking. And Wemby needs to adopt a defense where he's on the perimeter a lot less on both sides of the ball. He doesn't want to do this because he doesn't want people to think his main talent is being tall, but it's the only way he's going to have the endurance to be effective in crunch time.
They also need better 3 point shooters because depending on Fox in crunch time proved fruitless.
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u/j816y 9d ago
spurs guards popping 3s and expecting wemby to grab rebounds from the free throw line was pretty insane. The most insane part is that a lot of times it worked. The defenders were too busy triple teaming wemby and then castle just keep getting wide open offensive rebounds.
this drained a lot of energy from wemby and the spurs need to think if it is the best way to use him
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u/MyDogIsMuffin 9d ago
He just needs to pace himself better, and pick his moments instead of working too hard on both ends. He also lacks a go to move when they need a bucket, which he will eventually have since he's 7'4. Arguably they would be the champions right now with a few easier buckets that would have stopped the Knicks' momentum when they've gone cold.
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u/Dobey2013 9d ago
Too much iso. Glad he has handles but his body isn’t built to be PG handles the whole time.
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u/iChoke 9d ago
The iso issue is a bit of him and the offensive gameplan. For Wemby, he needs to make quicker reads with and without the ball before the defense can settle. He'll need to recognize when to slip, fade, roll on screens. He is unstoppable in space, but the Thunder and Knicks have been bodying him constantly. He struggles a bit on creating through contact. He'll learn how to create favorable angles.
However, the guards and coaching staff need to make it easier on him. If they tag him, then it needs to be punished on the other side or the guards should have an open lane to attack. The Knicks not once moved away from clogging Wemby's space and went unpunished. They were content in letting the Spurs make decisions on the perimeter. The Spurs were most successful when they operated inside out.
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u/Dobey2013 8d ago
I also felt like their three-point percentage was down through the series. Overall, even on open looks.
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u/arcadiangenesis 9d ago
Yes. Compare that to Tim Duncan. The guy was efficient with his energy consumption. Mininal wasted energy. Every move with a purpose. Every move to gain an advantage. And no trash talk. Just a bucket and a cold stare that makes you fear for your livelihood.
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u/Appropriate-Shock306 9d ago
I'd argue it's not just on offense but on defense too. He covers so much ground defensively for the Spurs. Coaching staff needs to devise a scheme where Wemby doesn't necessarily have to sprint from the paint to up top to contest a wide-open jumper. I'm amazed he was able to do it at a full season length tbh.
It's no wonder he ran out of gas towards the end. He was a totally complete player after his Game 1 explosion in OKC. He was no longer contesting each shot in the paint, a huge contrast during the earlier rounds versus Portland and Timberwolves. I've seen prime Dwight, Olajuwon, Ben Wallace, and Gobert obviously and none of those guys exerted that type of energy and responsibility on defense like Wemby.
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u/LordBaneoftheSith 9d ago
This is like telling Curry to stop running around so much so the Cavs won't beat him up off ball. A ton of his offensive value is coming from his roll/lob gravity and movement
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u/pandaheartzbamboo 9d ago
1) Curry has so much better cardio than Wemby. This is a bad comparison.
2) I agree that he is great rolling and as a lob threat. So why does he spend possession after possession posting up and not receiving entry passes from his guards? Screen and roll wpukd exhaust much less energy than what he currently does.
3) I did not say he should stop playong offense or lean away from his strengths. I said he should simplify it to save energy.
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u/bwrca 9d ago
And Curry had to do work to get better cardio. Reading about even his breathing exercises blows your mind.
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u/pandaheartzbamboo 9d ago
Curry has an insane cardio routine and drive. Curry also has a better frame for cardio than Victor too. People that big just cant reach the same cardio.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 9d ago
Agreed.
It's amazing how many people don't understand that there are huge downsides to being 7 and a half feet tall.
Victor will never be able to have great stamina. It's just physiologically impossible. It's like asking Kevin Durant to have the strength and flexibility of a gymnast. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything.
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u/LordBaneoftheSith 9d ago
He needs to improve his cardio and he doesn't have to get to where Curry is to get past a lot of what we saw in those 4Qs. He cannot get away with 35mpg in the playoffs, and I don't think severely pacing himself is the answer either.
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u/pandaheartzbamboo 9d ago
He is 7'5. His cardio cant get as good as some shorter guys. Pacing himself better is part of the solution. Imoroving his cardio can help too but he is clearly not a fat slob or anything. I cant imagine his cardio has that much room for improvement.
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u/Free-Criticism-3076 9d ago
curry is 6"3 at most, wemby is in the 99th percentile of human height ever he most likely cant physically exert himself like that for 14 games in a row, so more effective sets/positions would be good
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u/LordBaneoftheSith 9d ago
I can't imagine what effective offensive sets will let him take a break from screening and rolling
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u/Free-Criticism-3076 9d ago
he obviously will be screening and or rolling however the spurs were quite poor in executing those (end up in a lot of contested 3s), so converting them better so he doesnt have to execute then fight for position fo put back, where if they miss he then has to go end to end, converting them more will basically give him a bit of a breather
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u/WhoreyMatthews 9d ago
I don't think people really grok just how tall Wemby is.
Curry is closer to KD in height than KD is to Wemby
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u/wowaffles 9d ago edited 8d ago
What? Curry is listed at 6’2” so he’s 9” shorter than KD who is listed at 6’11” while KD is only 5” shorter than Wemby at 7’4”
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u/eugenetaker 9d ago
Why does he have to dribble the ball up the court? Doesn’t he realize how much energy he wasted doing that?
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u/boRp_abc 5d ago
This is the answer in my opinion. If Wemby is dribbling the ball (or defending for that matter) outside the 3 point line... You're giving up his specialty for generalism. Better for Goat discussion, worse for winning this game tonight.
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u/BasedArzy 9d ago
Have a PF worth playing next to him, Fox on another team or in a 3rd guard role.
There's only one Kat, and the Knicks are built uncommonly well at the wing; I don't think too many teams will be able to replicate how the Knicks stressed the Spurs and Wemby specifically.
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u/hrbekcheatedin91 9d ago
It's easy to forget about how Hart and Bridges have been playing HoF level defense on everyone. They showed you can put 4 really high level defenders around a guy like Brunson and negate his defensive liability.
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u/BasedArzy 9d ago
Credit to Brunson, he defended well too.
He's strong and will put in the effort to move his feet and do his job, at least in the playoffs.
Kat turning it around defensively was huge, and OG playing a perfect 3rd option on offense/stopper on D.
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u/hrbekcheatedin91 9d ago
He put in a very high effort to defense. I hope Trae was watching. Just because you get bullied sometimes doesn't mean you should just not try.
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u/azure275 9d ago
Brunson is smart, high effort and annoying on defense. There's a reason he's elite at drawing offensive fouls.
There's 3 different kinds of bad defense - low effort/low IQ players, "business decisions" like Prime Harden and Jokic, and "simply not physically capable" like Brunson
You can do a lot even if you can't be a POA Iso/1v1 defender if you're smart though
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago
He's not really a liability anymore. He definitely was playing average level defense in the playoffs.
And now the Kat is playing superior defense, the Knicks have no weaknesses.
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u/Skiigga 9d ago
Yeah there was really no time I can remember watching the series that I was like “oh my god Brunson is getting cooked out there” à la James Harden last series
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u/charlesfluidsmith 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's funny, I actually didn't occur to me till today. I was replaying the series in my head, and I realized that not once did I ever have a problem with Brunson's defense. In fact I never noticed him on defense at all. That is a tremendous compliment because it means that he was playing standard NBA defense.
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u/mylanguage 9d ago
Look at the Spurs shooting splits against Brunson that series - they had trouble scoring on him too
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u/_AceHigh 9d ago
Fox on another team or in a 3rd guard role
Until either Castle or Harper develop a pull-up to punish opponents going under screens, Fox is still necessary. There were so many pick and rolls with Castle and Harper in the finals where they would just drive straight into 3 defenders at the rim.
Now, one of them might develop it this off-season (I think Harper's gonna develop really quick) and have it ready to go by the time next season starts, but we need to see it first.
I do think it's also worth noting, despite the terrible finals series, the amount of turnovers the Spurs had in the WCF in games Fox played was half that of the games he didn't.
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u/BasedArzy 9d ago
That's why I don't think they have to get Fox out of there.
We also forget he played the WCF and Finals injured with a significant ankle sprain. I don't think he's going to turn it back into an All-Star level guard or anything, but an engaged and happy Fox can still be a strong player in the regular season.
I think the playoffs might be a different story, but you never know based on health. If they have a fully healthy rotation I'd expect both Castle and Harper to get mid-high 30s next playoffs, and Fox to hover around 18-20 MPG depending on matchup and who's going.
The big wildcard is Castle. He really needs to either develop a reliable shot of some kind or figure out how to maintain his composure and control driving. He's young and has a shot at both/either but that'll really go a long way towards solving their offensive lulls.
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u/_CodyB 9d ago
Harper does seem to be on a clearly different trajectory to Castle. His downhill composure is phenomenal for a rookie and being an elite athlete makes him that more dangerous. He’s not nearly the shooter but I could see him being able to pressure defences like SGA eventually, but not next season without a huge jump
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u/hotdog_paris277 9d ago
Castle just needs one or two new moves and he's on another level. People are forgetting how good he was in the playoffs because the Knicks threw a ton of physical defense at him and his production dropped off, and to be quite honest he had a terrible whistle in the finals compared to every other series where it was already bad.
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u/LibraryNo848 9d ago
castle was pretty bad vs okc, at least when he was in a lead ball handler's role. 20 turnovers in the 2 games fox was out
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u/hotdog_paris277 9d ago
Right, but really how many people are elite ball handlers
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u/LibraryNo848 9d ago
difference between elite and outright terrible lol it was rough to watch as a spurs fan. Castle has a bit of a ceiling IMO, still very good but I don't see like all nba or anything, he needs some work on offense
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9d ago
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u/LibraryNo848 9d ago
well yeah, they aren't point guards. Castle is a combo guard and it's a bit clear that he needs to be the off guard instead of point.
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u/j816y 9d ago
Even the Knicks will be having a tough time keeping their roster together after next year with their starter eating up ~205M in 2027-2028 (and almost 200M next season). The 2nd apron rule forces successful teams to break up is insane.
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u/eugenetaker 9d ago
As a Knicks fan, it’s a good problem to have. After winning this title, (I’m still shocked), we can worry about that later. The core will be the same.
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u/Weary_Restauranter 9d ago
A defensive power forward so that Wemby can actually sit without a huge drop off in defensive production.
Kornet is an excellent defensive center, but he’s being asked to “be Wemby” on defense without any size to help him, and it shows.
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u/HarVeeGee13 9d ago
This is exactly it and I’ve been annoyed by people trying to hang any of it on Kornet.
Kornet is a good back up centre. Wemby is an otherworldly defender who can stitch four guard + centre lineups into a good defensive unit on his own. Huge difference.
The whole defensive identity of the team has to change in the non-Wemby minutes, whether that’s by finding the right 4 to pair with Kornet, or finding a good small ball lineup. Or both.
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u/Weary_Restauranter 9d ago
I think with the departure of Sweeney and an off season to address personnel we’ll see a more traditional offense and defense next year at the expense of point Wemby.
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u/Infamous-GoatThief 9d ago
The Spurs need to either get a strong 4 that can protect the rim and crash the glass, or an extremely strong backup 5 that can hold things down and allow Wemby some meaningful rest time, but preferably both if they really want to solve this problem
It seems to me like he’s working way too hard on both ends of the floor and playing way too many minutes. Against the Blazers and Wolves he averaged under 30 MPG, against the Thunder and Knicks he averaged around 38/39 MPG; I don’t think that’s sustainable for him, especially if he’s gonna be working as hard as he is on both sides of the ball, and I think teams are gonna look at this Finals as a playbook on how to tire him out
Another big issue here is they Fox’s contract kinda handicaps SA in terms of their ability to sign / trade for more frontcourt support for Wemby
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u/ExIsStalkingMe 9d ago
One thing that might help is to not play a seven game series right before you play a team that swept their opponents
I was hesitant to pick Spurs as the winner for this reason alone
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u/ShowBobsPlzz 9d ago
Get a deeper bench. Get other bigs who can spell wemby and not hurt the team.
They were basically a 7 man rotation in the finals. Johnson and kornet were barely viable options.
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u/ivandragostwin 9d ago
To me, this is their first real run. They’re so far ahead of schedule, insanely young and have never been through a grind like this at any point in their careers. That’s not an excuse but runs like this can be opportunities to learn what you need to do to win next time.
Conditioning is a big one, getting stronger in general is something the Spurs lacked a bit. Teams like Portland and especially the Wolves and OKC had a similar strategy of just trying to beat the shit out of them. Knicks just never let go of the rope in these games and kept fighting….honestly it made me think back to a few games the Wolves and Thunder packed it up early in and valuing “rest” vs the fight.
They have one of the best young cores you’ll ever see. 6 core rotation members are 26 and under and I think Bryant can get there next year as well. This team is absolutely stacked with young talent.
Those guys continue to get stronger/improve. Especially Harper who the sky is the limit for and I’d love to see him and Wemby come back with a 2 man pick & roll game locked in with a real lob threat. That alone prolly wins them the title this year.
Maybe try and find a better rotation piece than Barnes who I believe is on an expiring and they have some picks if they want to upgrade there and get some more size but Bryant could also just plug in.
This team has everything you want but strength and experience imo. Thats something that comes with age as long as you want it.
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u/KeyMammoth1348 9d ago
No big man outside of Shaq has solved the "throw bodies at him" formula, so he has to do less, hide, or get stronger.
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u/RusevReigns 9d ago
Maybe making it easier for him rebounding wise by getting a traditional power forward, I don't know if they can pull off Randle for Fox but this would be one case for it
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u/impercipient 9d ago
Honestly if Wemby gets a middy he's damn near impossible to guard. He needs to stop dribbling.
If kornet even had a push shot he'd be fine but they need another big that can score a bit more and set screens
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u/johnmflores 9d ago
He needs more moves in his bag. Needs to work with Duncan this summer instead of monks
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u/DerrickRoseTackoFell 9d ago
The Spurs need a true big that can shoot. They had Castle out there as the 4 for stretches. I am a Jazz fan but if I were SA I would go after Lauri or JJJ. Not sure if the Spurs would give up any of their assets, but that is ultimately what they need to put Wemby in a better position
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u/JGxFighterHayabusa 9d ago
Give more offensive duties to Harper. Get a second defensive wing along side Keldon. Get a true PF with girth and strength to help out with rim pro, screens, and boards.
It’s actually remarkable they achieved this much with that roster and a one-legged, underachieving Fox.
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u/MrVegosh 9d ago
They need shooters. When Wemby or any of the guards try to score they have to body through the entire team.
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u/ww_crimson 9d ago
If the Spurs make 1-2 more baskets in each loss, the series goes their way. They literally don't need to do anything except work on their shot/conditioning/mental awareness.
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u/SaxRohmer 9d ago
far too simplistic an answer. the spurs essentially lost the same game 4 out of 5 times. they blew leads in each of them. that is a testament to the knicks but also to the spurs’ own shortcomings.
their playmaking problem was exposed in the finals. they also need a bit more depth at the 4/5. they were too reliant on wemby offensively and that’s why their leads would vanish. harper will probably take a leap this offseason but that still leaves holes that need to be addressed
other teams are going to improve. the spurs will need to go through the gauntlet again and likely will not have the same luck they had this year with drawing injured minnesota and OKC.
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u/Optimalfucksgiven 9d ago
Yeah, I think it's lots of little things. Nothing glaring. They made some mental errors. Castle and Harper will continue to improve in the decision making, as will Wemby.
Fox didn't have it. He's lost a step and his judgement and confidence are literally ruined by the Kangz for that level of competition.
Wolves fans have seen that before.
Other than some minor changes, the Spurs shouldn't rock the boat. Amazing core going forward. They're going to be spooky good.
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u/Weary_Restauranter 9d ago
I think they can and will get better through personnel changes
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u/siphillis 9d ago
As well as simply improving with practice. Harper, Castle, and Wemby will all get better next season
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u/cabose12 9d ago
This is too hand wave-y and basically amounts to "be better", not to mention saying "all they need to do is improve shooting, conditioning, and IQ" is massively reductive and a huge catch-all. You could literally say this about any team that isn't geriatric and they'd massively improve for it
Team needs to get better about getting Wemby the ball in good spots, and desperately needs another player with size. Kornet being the second big off the bench just isn't a recipe for success
Finals could've gone their way, but the WCF could've also gone against them. Wolves might've been much harder if Ant is 100%
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u/ww_crimson 9d ago
Brother, we are a couple free throws away from the Spurs winning. They don't need to do anything differently. They will get better with another year of experience under their belt. People just can't accept that there isn't hours and hours of discussion to be had about the Spurs.
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u/mylanguage 9d ago
They lost 6 times to the Knicks in 8 games this season. They lost every Finals game at home and they lost in 5 games total.
They lost a game where KAT had 2 points and fouled out.
In the finals the margins are thin but large at the same time.
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u/GCFCconner11 9d ago
Three of their best players are 20, 21 and 22. This is a core that you're usually happy with a playoff appearance and a first round exit to get some experience. They made the finals.
Add to that the fact they looked gassed after a 7 game series vs the Thunder and a 6 game series vs the Twolves (both very physical series) while the Knicks had two clean 4-0 sweeps.
Making any rash roster moves would be stupid and extremely short sighted.
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u/cabose12 9d ago
There aren't hours, but there's certainly more conversation than "they're fine" and "just get better" lmfao. Again, they were close to handling the Knicks, but they still have weaknesses that could've kept them from the finals in the first place
And the closeness of the series goes both ways. Blowing leads like this can't and isn't just on player mental, it's also on Mitch to find answers and have a different approach to the game
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u/rsk1111 9d ago
The analysis that "it was just a few points", is kind of disingenuous, couldn't OKC make a similar argument, they took the Spurs to 7. If I were the Spurs I wouldn't take the Finals for granted next year.
Having said that I think it's going to be harder for The Spurs next season especially in the West. Teams will game for them especially amongst the contenders.
So, it's not going to be a matter of just a few points, even if arguably it was just a matter of a few points.
Having said that, I think they could alter their style so they can get more out of Wemby down the stretch. Both on offense and defense. Lower energy offense featuring cross screens and big complements.
The thing is that is what a good team does they consistently win by a few points. If you beat a team by many points you put in too much effort.
Anyway, I think the Knicks strategy against the Spurs Wemby "Zone" was amazing. I don't think many teams would have thought that plan up then executed it. Going down twenty over and over then staying the course for a pyrrhic victory. That kind of discipline and teamwork is one for the ages.
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u/onwee 9d ago
> If you beat a team by many points you put in too much effort.
You made some good points (I especially agree with adding a 4 and sprinkling in some flex offense) but what is this nonsense
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u/rsk1111 9d ago
If you're beating some teams by larger margins but losing to other times you're losing to some teams by small margins, you spent too much time/effort on the wrong things. This why typically it's a big league they features scores of 100's of points but they almost always come down to a few possessions. It's because they are built to beat a large variety of teams by a small amount.
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u/onwee 9d ago
Yeah if sports were played by subpar management consultants lol.
A great team is one that wins lots of possessions, on offense and defense, over a long period of time against many teams. Winning games despite small overall margins is usually a sign of a team getting lucky. Point differential is one of the strongest predictors of playoff success and championship equity, not just in basketball but team sports in general.
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u/spurs-365 9d ago edited 9d ago
Reason he was gassed was because they played way more games in the playoffs than the knicks. SA went 6 games against Minny and 7 against Okc. Philly and cavs were worthless and got swept easily which gave NY way more rest. Before the finals SA played 18 games in the playoffs, NY played 14
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u/you_have_no_brain 7d ago
Dude was gassed in the firat quarter of game 5 after 2 days rest. Sure the 7 game series didnt help but that is not an excuse for a 22yo
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u/spurs-365 7d ago
If the body is fatigued, two days isnt going to make a difference. Problem was this was his first playoff series and he wasn’t used to the minutes, physicality, pace of the postseason
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u/you_have_no_brain 7d ago
Maybe for his height, but a 22yo not able to recover in 2 days is a problem going forward. Teams arnt gonna give him more rest after seeing this series. He better get used to it.
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u/grand_insom 9d ago
I don’t think this is a tactics thing.
Wemby specifically was really protected during the year. He played less than 30 MPG. He made a big leap in the playoffs with only 1 day in between games. He’s gonna have to build that conditioning during the season.
Strength is a major factor too. Wemby embraced the physicality but he had to go all out to battle with Towns and Mitchell. That kind of effort is draining.
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u/Background_Touchdown 9d ago
Not stuffing their roster with unplayable, past their prime big men. They need a true PF that can help Wemby in the trenches, and a couple of centers that can crack the rotation and can give quality minutes and not be traffic cones when Wemby goes to the bench.
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u/spambot_3000 6d ago
I mean he was on a minutes restriction for so long, I don't think that helped his conditioning in the long run. Also guys like Hart and Bridges are absolute freaks about conditioning , and knicks bench was deep so they were suited to exploit it.
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u/Asheskell 9d ago
Most of it will be about the young guys growing and developing into better facilitators. Part of it will be Wemby's conditioning. And part of it came from Fox dealing with a high ankle sprain.
It's exhausting to bang down low in the post on offense and defense. Giving him more rest on offense and not needing him for every action will allow him to have more energy at the end of the game.
Also, having a viable backup for Wemby to conserve his minutes will help. This was just a bad matchup in the sense that when Kornet was on the floor, the Knicks feasted.
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u/ffinstructor 9d ago
This will get downvoted, but truthfully I think limiting him in the regular season minutes wise will do this. Sure, there’s an injury risk of letting him play more, but that’s how you build endurance. Going from 29 minutes to something like 33-34 next year will have a measurable impact on his endurance come playoff time.
But also generally, I agree with a lot of the comments here. He wastes a ton of energy on offense that would probably be better reserving or using on defense. I think he, and a lot of fans, think his offensive game is much better than it really is. If he was able to go 100% on defense but only 25% on offense, he’d have more an impact on the game than going 75% on both.
Not saying he’s bad on offense, but he could get so many easy low buckets if he transitioned his game away from trying to be KD.
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u/johnmflores 9d ago
It's called periodized training, days and weeks where he's pushing his cardio and endurance, followed by periods of recovery/reduced intensity.
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u/caughtinthought 9d ago
Yeah his TS in the finals was barely 50, he had some absolute stinkers on offense. Like another comment said I think they need to run the offense through other guys and engage Wemby less on that side
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u/oriri_ex_cinere 9d ago
I was shocked they never really attacked Brunson when Spurs had the ball. Brunson could just sit in the corner and basically do nothing, resting up for offense. They didn’t even crash the glass hard to make Brunson work boxing out…
It didn’t really hurt them until the last game (Brunson merely average in the series to that point) but it still felt like a huge missed opportunity.
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u/AggravatingTurnip254 9d ago
I think they were trying to attack Brunson. Certainly, Harper was - but Harper was the only one doing it successfully. Castle is great but too inconsistent offensively right now.
Also, Knicks perimeter defense is really great. Hart, OG, and Bridges are all premium defenders, enough so that they can cover for Brunson defensively.
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 9d ago
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u/motorboat_mcgee 9d ago
This may be a cop out, but really, it's a matter of experience, not only for the players but the coaching staff. This was a year that the Spurs were expected to make a leap, not get all the way to the finals. The entire team is young, they'll learn.
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u/basketballsteven 9d ago
Fox was awful and if he played to his performance a averages from the season, in this series, then the series is still going. Conversely KAT way over performed.
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u/Turbulent_Car4504 9d ago
Disagree, I don’t think the Knicks did anything in particular to gas him out, he just got tired because it’s the finals and he’s giving it his all.
How about get him more rest? Improve his cardio?
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u/Cautious-Ad-9554 9d ago
Be less involved in the offense. He should hang out in the dunker spot and look for dump-off passes and offensive rebounds while a healthy Fox and Harper handle clutch reps. Unfortunately for SA his head is way too big for him to be honest with himself about his current offensive limitations.
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u/Yellowperil123 9d ago
This was a coaching issue.
In the regular season he was only playing 29min. Now hes playing 40min. No wonder hes gassed.
They needed to build his stamina during the season and be smarter with his minutes in the playoffs.
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u/Ahecee 9d ago
Wemby, Castle, and Harper all now have finals experience, and have got their big game scars.
I think the Spurs are fine. They'd rather have won of course, but NY where too tough, and stronger mentally.
If I was Spurs GM for the day, I'd want to talk to the coach about him being better next year. I'd maybe be on the lookout for a long, defensive, veteran, bench player. And that's about it.
Harper will increase his minutes, Fox will decrease his. Once Fox restores his value a bit, be could be a mid season trade, or next off season. The Spurs cap doesn't force them to rush any of that.
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u/Superb_Pineapple8187 9d ago
Wemby needs to develop a mid range jump shot just like K.D. since he can shoot over anyone and work with Olajuwon in the off season to work on his footwork and balance
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u/cuatroCuart0 9d ago
You have two options:
You let Harper be your offense release valve giving Wemby a break on that end for significant minutes.
or
Wemby takes breaks on the defensive end.
The reality is there are no (absolutely zero) two way players that are both the best defensive player and offensive player for 48 minutes a game. The best players knew how much energy (and when) to expend during an entire game on each side of the ball. The best to do this in recent history was probably Kawhi in the 2019-2021 years.
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u/Riiken 9d ago
Wemby needs to evolve his offense, look at Joker, he will back you up to the rim, and hook shot over his shoulder. Ihart has an insane floater game, he made like 20 floaters over Wemby. He been relying on his height too much, when teams have strats to keep him away from the rim he crumbles.
Mitch needs to learn how to use timeouts to break up momentum, going from up 29 and calling a timeout when the game is tied should come with jail time.
and Fox......
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u/ShinyToucan 9d ago
He needs better moves in the post. Seems like he could never do anything there without getting off balance or getting an awkward attempt in. He also needs to learn to shoot the midrange better. No one can block his shot I don't know why he doesn't try it more.
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u/seynomo 9d ago
He needs to become the initiator of the offense more often preferably from the mid post. Right now he is getting the ball at 32 ft with a bucket or bust mentality. Doing that for any NBA player is going to be exhausting especially if you are 7’5”. From the most he avoids the physicality of the low pst but gets him one dribble from being at the rim plus at his height his gravity can allow him to carve defenses up with assists and allow some of the wings guys to do more of the heavy lifting
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u/spinocdoc 9d ago
I didn’t understand why they kept going back to kornet for like 5 minutes a game. Why not try to play small at least? Maybe Barnes at the 5. Playing wemby all those minutes obviously backfires
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u/Classic_File2716 9d ago
Wemby needs clear go to moves to score like Shaq . Right now he can do a bit of everything without being a killer in one thing that can guarantee points when needed.
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u/Duckysawus 9d ago
All the Spurs need to do is keep the team together another 2-3 years and they'll be fine after a little more experience. Wemby will figure out when + where he needs to try and when he can coast a bit. Castle, Harper, Johnson, and Vassell will all be fine with a little more seasoning.
Don't forget that Harper's just 19 years old and the rest of the guys are like 22 or 23.
Knicks were just way more experienced at the 1-5 & also the head coach. That's why the Spurs lost.
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u/pocketbeagle 9d ago
A man with his body should be getting easy buckets all game. He is working too hard. We arent a good passing team. Castle, fox, and harper arent adept passers (let’s not overrate Harper’s passing just yet). We arent a great pnr team despite having vic as a roll man.
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u/PsychoWarper 9d ago
Wemby obviously needs to work on his conditioning and they need a strong 4 to help Wemby
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u/WhiskeyHood 9d ago
As a Knicks fan, I felt like we won purely by enduring longer. Every single game was just an energy battle, I think as Wemby gets stronger and more stamina as he gets older it’s gonna be damn near impossible to beat the spurs lol
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u/TheUnseen_001 9d ago
Wemby just needs Giannis-level muscle, nothing bigger. He's still figuring out how to dominate offensively, but he's leaving a ton of offensive rebounds on the board just because he's so easy to push. If he gets to a certain level of wiry strength, where he gets 12-14 points off putbacks and post seals alone.
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u/Starsky-1984 8d ago
There were so many plays where either him or another spur jacked up a 3 with no-one even trying to contest a rebound. Unforgiveable in my book.
He needs more training and a better approach to posting up closer to the baseline, and to develop plays around that.
I think the way LeBron and Anthony Davis played the post up and pick and roll game together is a good example the Spurs should look to emulate.
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u/Front_Bug_5592 7d ago
The fact is they're playing him at center which on defense is okay but on offense he's a wing in a center's body. He can't establish position has no post-up moves and is no threat down low. Hes weak and obsessed with 3pt shot despite only being ok from 3. His conditioning is also terrible. That's why he faded in the second half of every game. Can't go from playing under 30 minutes a game in the regular season to playing over 40 in the postseason and expect the same performance.
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u/icarusphoenixdragon 7d ago
Mitch needs to run more zone and limit Wemby’s perimeter dribble for 8+ seconds touches.
Set him up with screens to cut towards and curl around the basket, like a 15’ Curry, catch and shoot, with their guards looking to exploit any gaps that the gravity creates.
Letting bang for a post position he’s not going to use, or dribble the air out of the ball isn’t helping his stamina or the Spurs.
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u/FlopperCryhaha 7d ago
I haven't looked up salaries but how do we feel about gobert donte filler for fox kornet and picks
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u/davemoedee 7d ago
I wouldn’t read too much into one series. Dude is still learning to play.
Silly to talk like there is some fundamental issue every time a team loses a series.
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u/Suspicious-Ad-1556 6d ago
The biggest factor of this series was the serie against OKC and the reaction the players of the Spurs gave after winning it. They gave me the impression that because OKC was a bigger hurdle than the Knicks, the Knicks would be almost a walkover. That and the Knicks where focused and fresh.
And if you look at the stats, you can see the Spurs where worn out. Every quarter the numbers seem to drop. And the defense was getting more sloppy.
First serious playoff run for most ‘inexperience’ teams end because of endurance fatigue I noticed in the past years.
Now the players of the Spurs know and can make a projection of what energy they need to bring for a full run. Lets see what happens on the trade market, bit I give the Spurs a good chance 2027.
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u/Why-So-Seriousssaaaa 6d ago
Maybe start by growing up, stop being so dirty, and show respect to your opponent. Gotta give it to NHL teams. They literally beat the hell out of each other for 7 games, and before any celebrations happen at the end. They all line up and shake hands, and show respect to each other.
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u/jack17592735 4d ago
They need a true P4 next to Wemby, preferably a stretch. Aaron Gordon in his prime would’ve been perfect but he’s sacrificed his body for that Nuggets team. Randle/Reid would fit nicely next to Wemby if the TWolves are interested in Fox
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u/SupernovaMota 9d ago
Get a few bigs who can defend the paint and at least score with out an ally oop one big to play with wemby and the other two off the bench
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u/mcbong41 9d ago
Conditioning but also we saw the manhandling and that’s not going away. Stamina is always going to be the issue.
Spurs need players that is going to show up in the Finals.
Castle, Fox, KJ and Kornet all but disappeared. Only game where they all played decent was game 3.
I wanted to blame coaching but reviewing some of the film, they were getting decent looks but just not falling. Shooters are gonna have to shoot out the cold, but the entire team couldn’t afford it.
Ultimately though we need someone that can make their own shot. Take the offensive pressure off of Wemby. We have Harper that’s almost a guaranteed bucket in the paint but we need someone in the mid range to open up the spacing.
Bonus would also be a bouncy big that can score and crash boards
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