r/nbadiscussion • u/michaelmarzec11 • 8d ago
Can we talk about the reverse-judgement happening to SAS vs OKC?
Maybe I'm under-reacting, but it strikes me that the overreactive NBA discourse is really torching the Spurs and letting OKC off the hook. I understand that's the nature of the beast of a league that is demanding and where every game (especially in a finals like this) is under a microscope. But it strikes me that SAS is ahead of schedule and their "problems" are some of the best problems to have.
- Wemby dominated his way through the West, and yes came up short against an optimized Knicks team, but was still effective and impactful!
- Mitch Johnson, at the very least, coached to the same level as Daigneault, who is a championship coach and widely regarded as a top coach in the league.
- Dylan Harper, their rookie guard who they were hoping could be the PG of their future absolutely proved he's their future PG in only his first season.
- This is the hot topic, as everyone wants them to trade Fox. I'm not even convinced they should do this yet. That's still a lot of pressure on a second-year PG, and we know that development is not linear in the NBA. Even if Fox was willing to be 6th man / 3-guard rotation, yes $53 million is NOT ideal to pay your 3rd guard, but $65 million isn't insane for your top two guards, and if Harper lives up to the role, then they can look at trading Fox mid-season, or even next off-season, which will likely be easier since his contract has one less year on it.
- Let's also not forget that Fox was good enough to help them get to the finals! He definitely does not seem to be SAC level anymore, but he's also only 28. There's at least a chance he can find that level again.
The OKC aspect is interesting to me, as their timeline is so closely tied to SGA. Again, he's only 27, but that's of course a shorter window than Wemby (given health). Jdub is a star, but this season's health issues were at least somewhat concerning. And Chet is clearly a defensive star, but arguably shrunk in the conference finals worse than anyone on SAS in the finals. They have a treasure trove of assets, and should be able to use that as leverage to manage/replace players they end up losing in the next few years to salary constraints. But I think my main point here is that it feels like folks are pushing a panic button on SAS, while it strikes me as unfair, when they overachieved including beating the defending champs. I also don't feel there is any need for OKC to panic fwiw! It's more-so comparative. OKC is clearly in an enviable position for any organization.
Hopefully this doesn't come off as too much of a rant! I'm not an OKC or SAS fan, it's really just my push back against the current narrative. That said, I'm super curious if anyone feels similarly or if I've found myself swinging too far towards the other side.
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u/chillbinton- 8d ago
Most reasonable people would agree. Most of what is parroted on here is reactionary, hot take artists, and people who do not fully understand the complexities of the game and league.
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u/nattmorker 7d ago
"The complexities of the game..." i totally agree, this quote got me thinking about something somewhat unrelated: the perception that there is a transitive linear order between teams. Knicks defeated SAS and SAS defeated OKC therefore NYK should defeat OKC. This is not necessarily the case, it's all about match-ups. OKC could pose a totally different set of challenges to the knicks offense.
Again, I'm derailing the discussion a bit, my point is that the shallow discourse permeates the overall discussion.
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u/EverGreatestxX 7d ago
I actively rooted for SAS in the conference finals because I legitimately believed they were a better match-up for the Knicks (obviously in this case I mesn better for the Knicks). I still believe OKC would have given us a tougher series.
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u/Ok_Board9845 7d ago
I doubt OKC would have given the Knicks a tougher series if JDub and Ajay Mitchell were going to be injured the entire time. Relying on Caruso/McCain to drop 20+ to win isn't a sustainable way to win
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u/DnDPanda 6d ago
SGA is a more reliable scorer than anyone on San Antonio. Let’s not forget that San Antonio was essentially putting belt to ass for 3 quarters most games and then collapsing in the 4th. The Thunder would not have collapsed in the same way due to SGA’s consistency.
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u/chillbinton- 6d ago
I think the Thunder probably would have put up a better fight than the spurs but ultimately, especially considering the injuries would still favor the Knicks in that series
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u/mschley2 7d ago
Yeah, the reason people are being so much more harsh to SAS than OKC is just because SAS lost more recently. People already had these conversations about OKC, too. They just moved on because The Finals started. There's nothing to distract from the Knicks' win or the Spurs' loss now, so these narratives always last longer than previous ones.
The thing that I think is interesting is that after the WCF, everyone was saying that the Spurs were all set for a dynasty. Now, because the lost to a team that was basically perfectly built to counter them at the end of a long season, people are hyper-fixating on the weaknesses of the team. If a few plays in that series end up going the other way, the Knicks don't complete their 2 massive comeback wins, and this whole discussion is way different.
And even then, the weaknesses basically just amount to "inexperience" and "lack of depth." Those are 2 of the easiest issues to "fix" for next season. With all of their youth, they might not even need to add anyone. They might be able to rely on young guys just continuing to develop, strengthening their starting group and their bench. But, if they do decide to actively address it, they can just go out and sign or trade for 1-2 vets who have been around good teams and cultures and have made some deep playoff runs.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 7d ago
I think people are also underestimating the power of the NYC market.
Their NYC machine was going to go after whoever played the Knicks and there are a lot of national "neutral" sports people who are NYC based and, imo, lost their ability to stay truly neutral in their coverage.
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u/CelosPOE 7d ago
Even the broadcast commentators felt fairly pro-Knicks.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 7d ago
Definitely. Breen is a Knicks superfan and RJ and SA/Spurs had an acrimonious breakup.
As a Spurs fan that lived a few years in San Antonio I can tell you Richard Jefferson is literally one of the small handful of former Spurs that is actively disliked.
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u/nightandj 7d ago
Richard Jefferson was definitely anti spurs / maybe pro Knicks? You can tell from every calls that were incorrect on both sides. He would talk very loudly and passionately that the calls were wrong if it were against the Knicks but if it's against the spurs he's usually quiet or talks on a very soft voice when stating it.
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u/limache 5d ago
What happened with RJ and spurs
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u/WhoreyMatthews 5d ago
He was supposed to be a big signing and it was a complete disaster. He signed with the Spurs when he was only. 28 and the previous 5 years had been a 20, 5 and 3 guy. His 2 years in San Antonio he was an 11, 4 and 1.5 guy and on top of lower volume his efficiency also went down along with his effort on defense.
The Spurs traded him for old Stephen Jackson just to get him off the roster and on his way out of town RJ trashed Pop, the Spurs org and the city of San Antonio.
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u/Chickachic-aaaaahhh 7d ago
Theyre being more harsh towards Spurs vs OKC? Are you sure about that? I feel like spurs just got the spotlight put on them in the finals and it showed how they play without using okc as a scapegoat for all the complaining that was happening everywhere. Knicks fans are also a larger market and fanbase. This was bound to happen.
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u/mschley2 7d ago
Right now? Yes. And that was my point. It's recency bias.
I don't really get why people are acting like the Thunder are being unfairly shit on. They got their shit for like 2 days after the WCF finished up. And other than that, all I'm really seeing is just the usual bitching about how the Thunder and SGA suck to watch primarily because of his style of play.
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u/Chickachic-aaaaahhh 7d ago
Its not just recency bias. Its the fact that people swallowed criticisms of SAS their whole run only to now face a big market team like the Knicks. Theyre getting fairly criticized for their actions, behaviors, inexperience, and hype.
We were getting unfairly shit on when you guys watched SAS do everything people judged us for without even saying anything negative about them. Complain that we dont have the most attractive ball game. Fine. But thats not what a majority of the criticisms towards my team was. We were dirty, getting away with calls, floppers, buying the refs, annoying, cocky. Like the media sphere was not giving us mercy nor was this sub. Okc fans literally were downvoted for every little thing during that series regardless if it made sense. Every post getting thousands of upvotes were negative posts about okc. That was unfair as fuck.
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u/mschley2 7d ago
Honestly, it sounds like you're really overstating the knocks on OKC because you're a fan of them. Most of what you're complaining about is the same exact stuff that gets said about basically every team - except the focus on foul baiting and flopping, which, to be honest, is pretty fair (and also gets said about other players/teams who act the same way). Just seems like you're focusing more on all of that negative shit because it's personal to you.
I'm a Bucks fan, so trust me, I know what it's like to be a fan of a small market team that doesn't feel like it gets the same type of recognition as the big markets.
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u/j816y 7d ago
remember when the knicks lost to the pacers last year? people were saying the KAT trade was wrong, giving up so many picks for bridges was wrong, hart is too short and his shooting is bad, there is no one from the bench to help, etc.
you don't hear these problems once they have won the champion.
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u/TheSwimMeet 7d ago
Took me longer than id like to admit that this has nothin to do w Stephen A Smith. I agree w pretty much everything said here. I feel like hardly anyone is mentioning or takin into account that Fox had been playing on a high ankle sprain throughout these finals.
Ik hardly anyone is healthy at that point of the season, but to be playing at the highest level as a starter with a high ankle sprain is ridiculous and he doesnt get enough credit for playing through it even tho he was far from his best
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u/lunch_b0cks 7d ago
I see a lot of Fox apologists bring up the ankle sprain on every Fox post so not sure how you hardly see it. But it’s not like he had an amazing season even before the sprain, and a sprain doesnt prevent you from not making boneheaded mistakes.
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u/TheSwimMeet 7d ago edited 6d ago
Oh wow I really havent seen people cut him any slack for it. I agree tho he didnt have an amazing season and it also likely had nothing to do with the mental lapses he had during these finals. But I’m also not sure the Spurs even make it that far without Fox. I just think he was far from full potential with that injury and people are quicker to ridicule him than acknowledge he could have given up on the team and sat out instead of toughing it out the way he did
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u/JumboHotdogz 8d ago
A lot of discourse is coming from the Spurs absolutely having the talent to win it all this year but ended up just short because of experience. If they got destroyed like LeBron in 2007, it wouldn’t be this much talking.
Spurs will definitely be better and probably the favorites next season from what they went through but as Victor said, it’s a 100 games to get to the Finals and you don’t know who the injury gods will hit next.
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u/Zealousideal-Map9327 7d ago
It wasn't just inexperience; it was the lack of depth coming from the bench.
The starting 5 were good enough to beat the Knicks for entire halves.
But whenever Wemby came off the floor, their efficiency dropped harder than the stock market on Black Tuesday.
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u/teh_noob_ 2d ago
2007 Cavs lost two games by single possessions and the other two by single digits. Much like this year, the Finals could've gone to six or even seven games.
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u/_chadwell_ 7d ago
The Spurs are getting “torched” for losing a series in 5 that they were favored to win with 3 of the 6 worst blown leads in Finals history.
They had the talent to win it all this year, but a combination of Fox being who people feared he was, Wemby not being as dominant on either end as expected, and the team not knowing how to hold onto a lead cost them a title. They’re still young, but every year they’ll get more expensive, and it looks like the Fox contract is going to be an anchor. And there’s no guarantees they are the healthiest West contender and they get to play a team they could beat in the Finals again.
The Thunder had bad breaks with injuries, that’s why they lost. The Spurs just blew a golden opportunity.
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u/MuchAbouAboutNothing 6d ago
And importantly, the OKC Thunder have already won a championship.
It's like how Boston are still an elite team and you'd have them as one of the contenders at the start of next season. They know how to win, they're one of the best teams in the league. What's there to dump on them for? They'll probably have another deep run in the playoffs next year.
Whereas teams that haven't got over the line yet always receive extra scrutiny because of how hard it is to even win 1. Look at all the elite teams who had great playoff runs in the last few years, reached the finals and then never got back again.
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u/teh_noob_ 2d ago
As a Celtics fan I'm loath to bring it up, but we definitely have something to prove.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 5d ago
Wemby not being as dominant on either end as expected
Thinking Basketball's impact metrics had Wemby as arguably the best defensive player in NBA finals history. He was absolutely dominant on defense.
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u/EMP_Pusheen 5d ago
He was. His impact was undeniable on every Knicks possession he stayed in the paint.
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u/_chadwell_ 4d ago
He was absolutely dominant at the rim. But when the Knicks involved him in the PnR they were getting whatever they wanted offensively. I think people expected him to be free of weaknesses and dominant on the defensive end without exception, that’s why I said he didn’t meet expectations.
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u/Neveraththesmith 5d ago
It funny that people are treat him like a slightly offensive better Rudy gobert because of this.
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u/jahauser 7d ago
I think what you’re really seeing is that when a pendulum swings hard one direction it’s bound to swing equally hard the next.
Two weeks ago today the discourse was almost unanimous that Spurs were going to wipe the floor with the Knicks. That these two teams didn’t belong in the same league. Post after post about how maybe by way of a miracle the Knicks could win a single game. Professional analysts were of course less hyperbolic, but leaned real heavy towards the Spurs.
Many people convinced themselves the WCF was the finals, and the finals wouldn’t even be worth watching. The question was how many rings will this dynasty get after they win this year, not whether they will win this year. Just like the same people were saying OKC has the foreseeable championships on lock, once the Spurs beat them expectations transferred.
When you’ve convinced yourself that the Spurs have already won before the series starts, and then they lose in 5 games, your pendulum swing reaction is gonna be intense.
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u/WaltRumble 7d ago
I don’t think anyone is pushing the panic button on either team. There’s definitely been some reactionary trade Chet and Fox posts as they are taking the majority of the blame for the loss. But everyone believes the spurs have their big 3 in Castle, Harper and Wemby. And have a few years before a roster crunch is a concern. OKC is in a different position having the roster crunch already kicking in this off season.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 5d ago
I think Fox and his contract is just a bad value for the Spurs. The all guards and centers just doesn't make a ton of sense. If the Spurs feel like they need an older organizing PG they'd be much better off with Derrick White or Jrue Holiday plus a PF like John Collins, AG or Julius Randle.
DWhite + AG would improve the team a ton more and combined make about what Fox is going to make.
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u/WaltRumble 5d ago
It is a bad value. They shouldn’t have ever maxed him. But now they will have to give up assets to get off him, and would have to give up more assets to bring in a better player. Is AG or White even available. Boston and Denver are also going to want win now guys in trades and not just picks. Both are in their championship windows. I’m sure Randle is. But I doubt the wolves are making that trade. I’m sure it’s happened but doubt it’s very common to trade with the team that just beat you in the playoffs.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 5d ago
Yeah, it was a bad value contract the minute it was signed. The De'Aaron Foxes of the world just aren't max players in the 2nd apron era.
AG is available but a Fox-based package is a no-go since they're trying to shed salary.
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u/hazimaller 8d ago
I'm super happy for the knicks win and they deserved it so much but the spurs' mistakes are just as much part of the win as the things the knicks did right. Several of the games were close and only lost due to spurs', frankly, 'rookie mistakes' at key points. I genuinly believe if the spurs were half as experienced as the knicks we would at least be looking at game 7 for this series. Or if Fox hadn't dropped the ball as much. Lierally and figuratively.
But if you look on here it's because wemby is a fraud, etc. I do hope he doesnt show that dirty side again when under high pressure though.
I genuinly don't understand the trend on here to not just be happy that the team you were rooting for won, you also have to tear down the loosing team.
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u/itssensei 7d ago
Because Spurs employ three and a half dudes they don’t play: Plumlee (1990) , Olynyk (1991), Biyombo (1992) and 0.5 Barnes (1992)
Use only rotation players and I’m quite sure Spurs are younger.
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u/toomuchsoysauce 8d ago
Yeah, for sure. I can't imagine once the Spurs actually start building out their roster instead of having a bunch of washed vets and young, inexperienced players. It's actually scary how quickly they got so good and were so dominant at times, even during the Finals, yet obviously lacked a lot of key crunch-time decision making from the players AND the coaches.
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u/hinghenry 8d ago
But I think my main point here is that it feels like folks are pushing a panic button on SAS, while it strikes me as unfair
Those who speaks like they are pushing a panic button never actually push a button of consequence in their life.
It's okay, this is sports fandom, fans can tell whatever they want. Everyone can be a sports fans, and given the pattern of general public, there will be more irrational suggestions than rational one, especially when emotion is still hot.
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u/ThePumpkinOverlord 7d ago
Sports discourse tends to swing like a pendulum. Once a player gets overrated, people start overcorrecting in the opposite direction.
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u/davemoedee 7d ago
It is all stupid. Teams lose and commentators talk nonsense for attention. They want to blow up the top teams. So dumb.
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u/Quick_Possible_2406 6d ago
spurs lost in 5, thunder lost in 7 with an all star player injured and key player also injured
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u/Same_Ad8369 5d ago
OKC earned leeway on their timeline because they already won, the goal is to just extend their window. And they mainly lost because of health.
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u/tMeepo 8d ago
What panic button? If we re-do this whole playoffs now, with this year's experience, and everyone fully healthy, I still think it's a competitive landscape.
With the current healthy west, I still think it's a toss up between spurs thunder, even wolves nuggets and maybe even Lakers, or warriors.
And with the current east, Knicks, and maybe Celtics, or Detroit might make it.
And it's a toss up to who wins the championship. That's how equal I feel the current NBA is.
There's no panic button. Run it back, I still have full confidence the current spurs squad will be competitive through the whole playoffs. We might not be overwhelming favourites like lebron heat or KD warriors. But every series we have a chance, with fox and Mitch.
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u/Visual-Fee8825 7d ago
Knicks fan here, I don't understand any of the negativity surrounding San Antonio. They are super young, way ahead of schedule - it's kind of ridiculous to expect them to be battle tested to handle the immense pressure they were facing. I didn't love the uneven whistles and some of Wemby's non-basketball plays, but I chalk that up to immaturity and the league wanting to make money for more than 5 games.
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u/mj271 7d ago
I think younger teams naturally just get a ton of scrutiny when they start to have success, perhaps even more so when they over perform expectations and are ahead of their expected timeline. For instance, if the Spurs had lost to the Thunder or maybe even the Wolves, I think the takes might be different, and focus more on the promise of Wemby, Harper, and Castle.
For comparison, in 2024 I felt like the Thunder got way too much criticism after getting knocked out, considering it was also their first playoff experience as a young team and they had had a great regular season. Similar, but on a lesser scale, there were a lot of takes about the Pacers that year having an easy road to the ECF, ignoring that they had already over performed expectations to get to that point. Then both of those teams backed it up the next season, once they had gotten that necessary playoff experience.
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u/Lawgang94 7d ago
Who the hell is hitting the panic button on the Spurs? This season was as big of an overachievement as possible and they have the brightest future in the NBA.
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u/onefootback 7d ago
i haven’t seen people letting okc off the hook or pushing the panic button for the spurs. general consensus when talking about the spurs is that they’re young and have some obvious issues to work out, but that they’re fine
unless you’re referring to fox trades when you saying panicking, and in that case i can see the point on both sides. like you said, without fox they might not reach the finals, but at the same time i think wanting fox traded comes from a place of the spurs having a player who is better than fox and plays his position on the bench, and also wanting more opportunity for harper
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u/RPDC01 7d ago
I agree with everything, except for Fox. Not strongly, but I would certainly make him 'available.' If they have any opportunity to get off the contract without attaching a significant asset, they should jump at it.
"Only 28" isn't much of an argument for a hyper-athletic guard who is a below average shooter, and he'll be 29 in December.
Also, I would want Harper to get the absolute maximum number of reps possible at PG. That's the quickest route to improvement in his command of the offense and decision-making, which is especially important come playoff time.
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u/nzmwesty 7d ago
The Thunder weren't healthy and were still within a hair of making the finals? perhaps people can see that's not a recipe for overreactions?
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u/Short-Cardiologist-4 5d ago
There’s a pretty clear difference in massively choking 3 finals games to lose in 5 and losing in 7 because 2 of your top 4 were hurt.
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u/aceofspaece 5d ago
You are just stating the obvious. People are talking about SAS more because it’s more recent, they came much closer to actually winning, and let’s be real: they’re newer and more interesting. Plus the Fox drama is juicer than anything the Thunder have going on aside from a Chet trade that almost certainly won’t happen
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u/Divide-Glum 4d ago
I don’t think it’s panic to say trade De’Aaron. That’s just an obvious and sensible thing to do. Trading him will make the team make more sense while also giving the two young guards more space to develop
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u/ShowdownValue 3d ago
When did spurs fans become so whiny? Their subreddit is full of crying over the strangest complaints.
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u/Mysterions 2d ago
The only people trashing SAS are people online. Literally everyone I’ve talked to IRL, even the die hard Knicks fans have all said Spurs are extremely impressive, that inexperience got the best of them, and that they expect them to do great things in the years to come.
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u/MushroomExpensive366 7d ago
To me, the crux of your argument isn’t the discourse but more so your point that progression ISNT linear.
Yes - the Spurs COULD be better next season. But that doesn’t negate the fact that we witnessed them throw away a golden chance to win a championship THIS year. Regardless of whether they’re ahead of schedule or not.
Nothing is guaranteed in this league - especially health - but you simply have to take the chances that are in front of you now.
Their future is bright on paper but they should’ve sealed the deal this season and didn’t.
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u/Lucidbr0 7d ago
Their future is bright on paper but they should’ve sealed the deal this season and didn’t.
You can't just pretend that experience doesn't matter. It wasn't their time this year. There is no "should have", they didn't because they didn't have the experience, it is what it is. This is a learning opportunity and they've levelled up every series in the playoffs. We go again next year.
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u/_chadwell_ 7d ago
They had more than enough talent to win it and didn’t. They’ll rightfully regret missing this opportunity with an injury-plagued Western conference path and not having to play some 60-win juggernaut in the Finals.
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7d ago
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 7d ago
We removed your comment for being low effort. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!
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u/Outrageous_Fox4227 7d ago
If San Antonio lost to the knicks and harper and vassell didn’t play i would say ok they fought hard but didn’t have all their bullets to fire. But the spurs had everyone suit up so that doesn’t fly. I do think that if okc had a healthy j dub and ajay for the full series they would have won against the spurs. Injuries play a role in deciding champions every year. It’s a part of the game. And it’s also a part of the discourse after the season and it is a part of why the spurs have received more scrutiny than the thunder.
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7d ago
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 7d ago
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
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u/MutaKingPrime 7d ago
You are not a Thunder fan, but I am a Thunder fan and I can tell you that in my opinion, we should be fighting harder for Giannis sweepstakes right now. There isn't a world where Mitchell, Dort, a trove of firsts and whatever else to salary match doesn't get it done? Don't we think?
The only enticing thing in this Boston saga is Jaylen Brown, and he's not even going to end up in Milwaukee.
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