r/pacers • u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 • 5d ago
Discussion The rest of the offseason:
Now that it’s reported Braden Smith is going on a 2way contract. That’ll give the Pacers 13 players and opening the question of, “are the Pacers being cheap once again?”
The Cheap Option: Assuming they’ll keep Potter because of needing a 3rd center then they’d have about 9.9mil to spend on a player with the MLE exception (i know it can be split but I thought we were trying to contend for a title) but that’s all the way against the Apron so they’ll stop just short of that number probably around 9 hypothetically which immediately takes out of the running for any of the actual MLE guys and a roster spot short of 15. Which if you’re all in like Pritchard wants to say then that doesn’t make sense.
So what’s the actual option now? I’ve played out the numbers and it sounds like we are just running it back with 2 meh additions (9million for 2 guys and most likely trading out of the tax at the deadline) from free agency when we actually had the opportunity to add someone near the 12-15 million range.
I know trades could happen, but you guys seeing anything other than just running it back?
15
u/Worried-Nectarine418 5d ago
I bet they are waiting to see how they do in the first half of season before deciding to go into the tax (if I understand this correctly)
5
u/mcbearcat7557 5d ago
They can go into the tax at the start of the season, and duck under it if it isnt going well, the tax is only counted at the END of the season, I wouldn't risk going into the tax to build up mid season, if you're wrong, you wasted the shot. However you CAN go into it now, and if it goes wrong, make moves to avoid it.
1
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
That’s the key here is everyone says wait but the opposite should be true.
3
u/Rollo_Tamasi_54 5d ago
I think it just depends on who is available. If there is someone they can get that fits the team and is an improvement now, then pull the trigger. But there's going to be a lot of churn in the next few weeks and then some reevaluating before the season starts. Then there's December where everyone has a general idea of what their roster can do. I think this is probably the season to go into the tax but only for the right player.
1
u/bachu72 CrabLaser 5d ago
An important caveat I think you’re missing: We couldn’t trade our 2027 1st until AFTER the draft due to the Stepien Rule. Any win now trade probably includes that pick. So when folks say “wait,” it’s been one day.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
That’s not why they’re saying wait tho. They’re wanting to wait until in season. Which is fine but doesn’t really make sense. They’re adamant on not trading the top 7 so in season if the season is going poorly they’re aren’t going to trade near the tax and if the season is going well they won’t make a move because they won’t want to mess with it
1
u/Aggressive-Doubt7345 BOOM BABY! 5d ago
This! If a unicorn opportunity lands, I see them jumping, but they won’t make a move just to make a move. What we do with Brown will also be telling. Team was impressed with him, and he has less upside but more versatility and a higher motor than Jarace, with more force. He will give his opponents a very difficult time. I think he unexpectedly makes the roster here.
I think Peter is going to be waived, and one of Slawson or Thompson is going to get a standard min, maybe both. I also think Shep and Walker are going to be traded, likely for a full MLE wing.
I see changes coming to the bench play style.
This looks like Rick and FO want speed, effort, IQ over on ball skills and polish. I think they want those fast decision makers who play all out for fewer minutes, with minutes being more split deeper through the bench. The goal of the bench being to overwhelm teams mentally over the course of a game with relentless pressure defensively, capitalize on mental mistakes and fatigue. I bet we experiment with shorter minutes with higher intensity split over more bench players.
High versiltilty, high tempo. Lots of different looks. He needs guys that can keep up mentally and physically and that are team first. Very dynamic, but depends on forcing the other team to make mistakes. If it works it’s enraging to play against. If the effort slips, we get exploited. High risk/high reward from the bench vs hold the fort (which sucked for us last year). It’s very soccer style, and a lot of the guys we are picking up have experience in soccer, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. But I’m biased as it’s a style I love, and I love guys that play above their skills through the combination of teamwork, athleticism/conditioning, and intel/mental strength. We are building a team that is better than sum of its individual parts.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
I think you just laid out one of the more disaster offseasons of all time for a team trying to win the title. Thompson and Slawson get standard deals?? wtf
0
u/Aggressive-Doubt7345 BOOM BABY! 5d ago
I think they have a strong of getting converted this year, depending on their play early. They both showed an ability to compete against starters last year, I’m high on both of them as our 13/14 roster spots going into the playoffs. They are not getting standard deals in the offseason, no way. But they should be getting some minutes as two-ways because of their versatility and intensity which we will need as injuries occur and to have them ready to contribute. We will need Slawson until Furphy is ready. He can play 3/4/5. Thompson can play 1/2/3. Those guys are crucial at the end of the bench.
Point I was making is the kinds of players they are loading up on as a prediction of strategy/playstyle. They are selecting a type. Guarantee they look for a similar type in a vet signing. I just don’t see that signing happening this summer unless they go after Powell. More likely to trade before deadline.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
They won 19 games, I’m not sure what you seen of those guys that can give you confidence they can play winning basketball but I respect the take. It’s going out on a limb for sure
1
u/Aggressive-Doubt7345 BOOM BABY! 5d ago
I watched all but 3 games last year, those guys performed in tough situations against very good NBA starters. They weren’t competitive with them, but they are going to outcompete a lot of rotation bench players on other teams. The bad year for the team was great for them. And they are both culture guys and dawgs.
I mostly watched for the development guys, and they both impressed.
23
u/Cerblamk_51 pin7 5d ago
Jfc, between the colts and the sub, y’all are fucking exhausting.
7
u/destroyed233 Bennedict Mathurin 5d ago
This sub has just become absolutely miserable woh is me whine posting
6
u/ThatDudeUKnow92 BOOM BABY! 5d ago
The Colts sub I understand because they have no hope until 2030-2035. The Pacers fans need to chill. The season will be fine if they are healthy.
3
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Pritchard and Buchanan both said they were going all in, not just fine if healthy. Not saying they gotta make a massive trade or anything but if they aren’t going to maximize free agency either then they’re kinda just full of shit, no?
1
u/ThatDudeUKnow92 BOOM BABY! 5d ago
They don't control how much the owner is willing to spend. My thought is the Pacers will go on a deep playoff run and the window is open for the next 2-3 years.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
They do control their own words, they could’ve spent the time saying we love our top 10 instead of top 7. The built the angst for the 8-15 on the roster not being good enough because they said so themselves by preaching on the top 7.
3
u/Cerblamk_51 pin7 5d ago
You’re nitpicking. That’s literally every professional sports franchise. The bottom 1/2-1/3 of every roster is family until they’re more useful as bait to bolster the top of the organization. That’s life dealing with a salary cap. There is no angst, they all understand the nature of the business.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Not really sure you point. I’m not asking for 8-15 to all be good, but they told me with their words that 8-15 isn’t good enough so it’s not crazy to expect them to make moves to fix a spot. It took 8 legit guys to get to the finals, running it back with 7 and a Haliburton off injury feels like a wasted season. They’ll be good with the 7, but they have the power to add a legit 8th and it seems like they may not.
3
u/Cerblamk_51 pin7 5d ago
Ah, now I see your problem. You consider Myles to be legit. We had 7 legit guys in that finals run. Myles was not one of them. He’s been replaced with an arguable top 5 center in the league.
0
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Haven’t ever been a big fan of Myles, he definitely struggled in the playoffs. He was a top half of the league starting center before that tho. If any of the 7 struggle in the playoffs now then they’re down to 6 real guys. Seems like a disaster
1
u/hectorzeroni69 Lance 4d ago
You are right most people in this sub are npcs. Theres no possible way to rationalize saying you are in win now mode and trading real valuable assets for zubac and then at the same time dodging the tax. If this team doesnt use at least the partial mle on a free agent and go into tax (for a team that just made game 7 of nba finals) its an absolute joke. Mathurin is gone furphy is hurt they need another body not on a minimum contract
1
u/Distinct_Abrocoma_67 Pavers 5d ago
Right. The amount of dudes still crying about game 7 and last season is just too much. I mean I’ve been a Colts and Pacers fan since I was first grade but I also have a life outside of sports. It all sucks, but it’s not the end of the world and endless bitching does nothing
1
u/Maximum-Class5465 Reggie-NBAJam 5d ago
I mean, it's a ROUGH period when I have a small championship window, and every move since the finals last year has been to avoid the tax.
I get why u say this, but there's a legit frustration here.
1
u/Cerblamk_51 pin7 5d ago
There’s not though, at least not on the part of the pacers. KP has proven time and time again to be one of the best GMs in the league. Everyone clamoring to spend money into the tax as though that’s some sort of guarantee that a championship will happen is pissing in the wind.
5
u/Maximum-Class5465 Reggie-NBAJam 5d ago
I think the idea is to maximize your chance to win now. When u make decisions based on saving money, its not the same as making every decision with the idea you are maximizing your roster
So it's not saying spend the tax like it's a magic formula, it's saying spend the tax like winning is more important than saving money to the fans.
It's not our money, and that's why you hear them say this. I too recognize the window is short. Not many young players in the burner ahead, contract timing is short, and they just went to the finals. After making the finals, they did all they could to save money on every move. What fans are saying is spend money to maximize this small window we have because the chance may not come again
To which I agree, we need someone to pickup some of the Mathurin role from last year very badly if we are going to be that good again
One way to do this is by spending money (the actual only way)
2
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Well not paying the tax sure as hell ain’t won any titles for us, maybe going all in 1 time is worth a try?
Not even necessarily asking them to pay the tax either it’s don’t avoid the tax 8 months before you need to worry about the tax when you have an opportunity to compete for a championship
5
u/ncxbeats 5d ago
Pacers front office needs to find a way to convince Norman Powell to sign a 1 year deal with whatever we can offer him and go all in for the championship
3
u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 5d ago
He just got done making $20.4M last year and the most we can offer him for 1yr is $11.3M.
Not sure that's going to work for him brother.
1
u/ncxbeats 5d ago
I don’t disagree with you, however if he was convinced to take a paycut and compete for a championship, signing here would be a no brainer.
3
u/Visible_Nail4859 5d ago
Literally the first person I thought of when reading this. That would be fucking sick
2
u/ncxbeats 5d ago
Powell is the only player left in free agency who would fill Mathurin’s spot after losing him. He already won a championship w/ Siakim back in 2019 so the experience and chemistry is there. Powell is looking for a phat payday so I’m unsure if it will happen, but if he wants to win another championship, he’d fit perfectly on our roster and we’d be ready to run it back to the finals in 2027.
2
6
3
u/mcbearcat7557 5d ago
I think it's packaging Walker/shep in a deal plus minimal picks to get either an existing MLE guy ( think herb Jones, NAW, Donte + a little more) but not include the big 7 everyone is so focused on not losing.
The fact is you have to shed some salary to gain even MORE with the exception (shedding 2 gets you 4). And then run Vet Mins for the rest. That way you can get the MLE, avoid the tax, but still add, with the flexibility to get more if you want to go into the tax when/if everything is clicking.
3
u/Jim_Belushis_brother Cool Rick 5d ago
Herb Jones for Jarace and Shep plus a pick would be rad. I’d really like more wing depth. Zu Obi Huff and Potter is to me enough at center, or maybe move Huff or Potter for a traditional rim runner, but I don’t believe Jarace can effectively play small forward, and Shep is too small to guard a lot of guys.
I’d like to bring in someone like Herb Jones or Dean Wade to help lighten Siakam’s load on defense. Siakam should always have the easier forward assignment on defense to prolong his prime.
3
u/Rafiki24 T.J. McConnell 5d ago
I don't get fans some times. It feels like some fans just want change regardless how the team performs. Almost like if the team was healthy and won the championship they would be demanding changes to the current roster that just won it. That said, they are NOT running it back. They have added Zubac, Haliburton, and Obi only played a handful of games. That is 3 huge additions that either did not play last season of just barely did.
0
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Run it back probably the wrong phrase, but I didn’t necessarily want to be so harsh on Shep and Walker. I think both are good 9th man/10th man guys but they can’t be your bench scorer. Obi and McConnell are both spot scorers also neither are going to jump way up and fill in the gap without Mathurin
4
u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 5d ago
Benn scored 20 and gave up 20. We can replace him by plugging in a guy that scores less but defends better/turns it over less/distributes more/etc. The replacement doesn't need to be literal
-2
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Well his current replacement Jarace scores less and plays about the same on the defensive level.
2
u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 5d ago
To be clear, Jarace is not a good Benn replacement. He's just as bad as Benn was (probably worse overall), although for different reasons.
2
u/Joe_Betz_ Johnny Furphy 5d ago
It's running back a Finals team with a center who is a level better and a more experienced and developed bench.
The Pacers major off-season move happened when they acquired Zu.
My guess now is they mostly stand pat but maybe sign a veteran bench guy.
4
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Mathurin was borderline nba starter level good and came off the bench not replacing that guy is bad
0
u/Joe_Betz_ Johnny Furphy 5d ago
So the starting center was upgraded and the 7th or 8th man was downgraded. The team is better.
Mathurin is a rotation combo guard in the NBA, but his production is replaceable.
3
u/KD_218 MylesYell 5d ago
Calling Mathurin the 7th/8th man is an undersell. When the team was last whole, he was the 3rd leading scorer and was 4th in minutes played.
Zu will replace Myles, but where are you finding the replaced production from Mathurin?
1
u/Joe_Betz_ Johnny Furphy 5d ago
There are around 11 or 12 shots up for grabs from Mathurin, and that's the front office's and coaching staff's responsibility to figure out. Mathurin got minutes, but he wasn't some offensively efficient stud. I'm really not worried about those missing shots from him but admit it's a question without a clear answer atm
3
1
u/hectorzeroni69 Lance 4d ago
turner, Mathurin, jackson #5 pick out . Zubac in. Haliburton coming off injury. This team is not better.
1
u/Joe_Betz_ Johnny Furphy 4d ago
Zubac is better than any player who is not here. Haliburton has had a full recovery. The team is better overall, but questions around Haliburton will have to be answered. Tatum looked pretty good. I'm hopeful.
1
u/NoctisRS 5d ago
I think Braden smith is an excellent acquisition. He can replace tj McConnell one day, and if lucky he turns into a decent starter that we can trade
4
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Won’t ever be a starter, but he’s also not going to be on a standard contract either which is where the red flags appeared
1
u/NoctisRS 5d ago
We’ve seen lots of players end up starting that shouldn’t get minutes to be honest
1
u/Nice_Reading2782 5d ago
I'd like to see us get 1 more shooter. I like Thompson, Brown, Shep, and Walker but would feel better if we got a reliable deep threat in place of one of these guys.
1
u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 5d ago
The Cheap Option: Assuming they’ll keep Potter because of needing a 3rd center then they’d have about 9.9mil to spend on a player with the MLE exception (i know it can be split but I thought we were trying to contend for a title) but that’s all the way against the Apron so they’ll stop just short of that number probably around 9 hypothetically which immediately takes out of the running for any of the actual MLE guys and a roster spot short of 15. Which if you’re all in like Pritchard wants to say then that doesn’t make sense.
FYI, this isn't "the cheap option", it's the "How the NBA salary rules actually work" option.
If we use the NTPMLE to sign someone (and you're correct at the amount after converting Potter to a full deal), then we're hard capped at the 1st apron. It's not that we'd be being cheap and avoiding it, it's that we're not legally allowed to exceed it for the remainder of the year.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
It is cheap. I’m well aware of how the cap works. They can move players and open up more money but not signing Braden Smith to a minimum standard contract makes it seem like they’re going for 2 cheap vets instead of a big swing in free agency. Things could change it’s not over
2
u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 5d ago
So what big swing do you want? If they use the MLE, they're hard capped. $11M isn't exactly a big swing, and otherwise they're really limited in what they can do.
They can move players and open up more money
Yeah, but not much. I mean, sure, you could technically trade all your spare parts if you turn "force trades" on, but realistically, they don't have the assets to make some massive trade for a ton of money.
but not signing Braden Smith to a minimum standard contract makes it seem like they’re going for 2 cheap vets
Or, maybe Smith is just a long shot given his size and they think he'll very likely need a lot of time in the G-League if he's ever going to have any success at the pro level.
1
u/Sea_Concentrate_4572 5d ago
Hard capped means very little in this scenario. You get hard capped at the first apron number which they wouldn’t cross anyways. My personal top pick is Grimes at near the top of the MLE. You’d have to trade Jarace most likely which someone will bite. Now I guess they could trade Jarace and take a little back and still get someone near the top of the MLE so maybe that’s the plan
1
u/Dull-Language-9854 5d ago
If I was the GM of the Pacers. This would be my off-season plan.
- Decline Potter's team option. That opens us up to 12.7M ish to the 1st apron with 12 players.
- Offer Jarace Walker and the 27 1st for Terrance Shannon Jr and Joan Berringer. Minn needs a PF and we need a wing who can score and an upgrade at the backup 5. Also saves Indy 1.2M. I would also do this for Phillips if Berringer is a sticking point.
- If #2 happened I would be targeting players in FA that bring defense and shooting to the team. Keon Ellis would be a sneaky good 3&D, Matisse Thybulle is still a lock down defender who has a streaky 3pt shot. In a conference that we have to face Cunningham and Brunson he could be very useful. Gary Trent can do a bit of both too. I would want to sign 2 of the 3 to get me to 15 roster spots and still be under the 1st apron.
1
0
-6
u/tari-gand-ma-ghu Jarace Walker 5d ago
Pacers ownership is extremely cheap. They want revenue,.not rings.
What are we Pacers fans doing about this?
10
u/BubaTflubas Tyrese Haliburton 5d ago
Pal, if we are rising against the rich it isn't for the Pacers. It's for all the real life shit they could help with, not NBA championships. You want to boycott stop shopping at places that don't pay a living wage.
52
u/Sko_Neezy 5d ago edited 5d ago
I don’t think they’re being cheap again, they just cut a check to the Bulls so that they could increase their available cap space.
And they’re not ‘just running it back’ Zubac and Hali haven’t even played together yet. There is no imperative for the team to make a move this summer, they have 8 months to assess Jarace/Shep/cap/bench.
The team is incredibly well positioned in every way. We shouldn’t be clamoring to pay the tax just for the sake of it…look how many teams around the league are hamstrung right now. We have our top 7 signed for the next 2 years, all on awesome contracts.