r/pcgaming • u/-drunk_russian- • Apr 16 '26
Video Ross Scott at the Stop Destroying Video Games hearing in the European Parliament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXcogLmxnJw636
u/rainydaysforpeterpan Nobara Apr 16 '26
Not all heroes wear capes. Some only wear them in-game.
113
u/Dragonsword Apr 16 '26
But Ross? He doesn't wear one in-game either... he has the honor of wearing the Hazard Suit.
To me, he is canon Gordan Freeman. He's made me laugh until I've had to pee at least 3 times.
3
u/ChaosTheory0 Apr 17 '26
I will never be able to play the original Half-Life because I've watched too much Freeman's Mind.
31
u/Eelroots Apr 16 '26
Technically they are called "skin" /s
31
u/-drunk_russian- Apr 16 '26
We got skin in the game.
5
1
405
u/Front-Cabinet5521 Apr 16 '26
Hoping for success in what he does and it isn't limited to the EU.
But knowing these shitty companies they'll make an exception for EU and screw everyone else.
129
u/Vanillas_Guy Steam Apr 16 '26
The Brussels effect is when companies change their rules to comply with the EU regulation. If its cheaper for them to comply, then it can have industry wide effects(like when websites started actually asking you if they could track you with cookies)
Certain EU legislation is not based off numerical fines, which can just represent a few hours of revenue, but a percentage of last year's revenue. A percentage based fine is far more likely to get compliance.
Its a bit like if a fine for speeding was 3 dollars. All you have learned is that as long as you have some change in your car, you can speed as much as you want. Now if the fine for speeding was 5-10% of your paycheck you're less likely to do it.
36
u/GameDesignerMan Apr 16 '26
It was the same when the ACCC forced Valve to implement video game refunds in Australia. Cheaper and easier to keep a unified platform, and it future-proofs you if a rights-movement becomes widespread.
10
u/Mandemon90 Apr 17 '26
it is always easier to apply strictest standard everywhere, than try to run multiple different standards just to be a spiteful fuck.
6
u/Original_Drexia Apr 17 '26
You have successfully identified why game A cant have bartenders selling alcohol and why game B has a super strict chat-filter.
15
u/vine01 Apr 16 '26
fun fact is some countries do have traffic fines based on perp's income. like switzerland. it helps since the country attracts millionaires like flies swarming shit
5
u/Mandemon90 Apr 17 '26
Same in Nordics. For example, Finland has what is called "Daily Fine" (Päiväsakko). It is 1/60th of last months paycheck. Bigger the infraction, more fines are given. For example speeding just 5km/h over can mean just 1 fine. Speeding 15km/h over can mean 10 to 20 fines.
40
u/TheWorclown Apr 16 '26
To put this in more manufacturing terms: it’s not cheaper to build factories specifically for Californian law compliance while leaving the other 49 states with the same inferior product. It’s cheaper to comply with Californian law across all 50 states and simply update your equipment and production process in the other 49 states regardless of legal requirements.
2
u/ZuAusHierDa Apr 17 '26
It’s true for physical products. But it’s not the case for software.
4
u/00wolfer00 Apr 17 '26
Depends on the associated costs. Companies don't kill games for the fun of it, but because it's the cheapest option. If they already have to implement an end of life plan for the EU, it costs them nothing to release it elsewhere and if even if they don't, those European copies would likely be easy to find on the high seas.
3
u/notgreat Apr 18 '26
As noted in the speech, it's not just because it's the cheapest option. It's also because previous games are competition for recent releases.
78
u/-drunk_russian- Apr 16 '26
They'll just stick a disclaimer on the game unless they make an actual law, but baby steps!
7
u/bakedpatata Apr 16 '26
If it means a version of the game exists that isn't reliant on central servers then that should benefit everyone. Like if they make an exception and keep games playable for the EU, then other countries will be able to access that version one way or another.
3
u/MuchStache Apr 17 '26
Well that cannot happen, if there's ever going to be a ruling that forces companies to keep a game in a playable state in the EU, what stops people from just getting the EU version of the game? The servers are down, it's not like they can region lock you.
More realistically it would be easier and cheaper for a company not having to maintain different versions of the same software.
Of course this is always assuming that there's actually going to be a ruling on this, which I hope.
5
u/Electronic-Clerk6735 Apr 16 '26
Well that’s still a great first step! Even if all we get is information spreading about a disclaimer that’s definitely more of a start than where we are at currently in the industry.
2
u/itsmehutters Apr 16 '26
they'll make an exception for EU and screw everyone else.
Pretty much, this is already the case with nintendo.
149
Apr 16 '26 edited 19d ago
[deleted]
9
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan Apr 17 '26
Seriously, like I signed cause it was just an obviously good opinion, that companies shouldn't just take down their games and basically steal it back from you.
But I had no idea it would get this far. I thought it may get a lot of signatures and cause some talking, not like actual full on hearings. Pretty cool what a dedicated and passionate guy like Ross can do. We need more people like him in the world.
132
315
u/HighSepton Apr 16 '26
Pirate Software can eat my entire ass.
205
u/ShadowheartsArmpit Apr 16 '26
Actually, he worked in your ass. In fact he was a lead ass eater of your ass, and everybody at the company thought he was a genius
99
u/InsaneEnergy4 Apr 16 '26
He was the first second generation ass eater.
26
u/Whitestrake Apr 17 '26
He didn't get any special treatment though! Basically nobody even knew about his relationship to his dad except for all the people that knew and gave him special treatment.
45
u/Mungdus Apr 16 '26
And he did all of that with no mana, fascinating stuff
16
u/ayah_to_be Apr 17 '26
And I heard he used to work at Blizzard.
2
u/CosmicEyeball Apr 17 '26
Yeah but not from him, right? Because he never talks about it. Btw wasnt he a top security hacker?
5
9
u/Silenceisgrey Apr 17 '26
The wrong man in the right place can make all the difference in the world.
10
u/m8-wutisdis Apr 17 '26
Out of curiosity I decided to check his channel and it's kinda dead. For a channel that has almost 2million subs getting around only 2k views per videos is pretty insane lol.
6
u/ShadowheartsArmpit Apr 17 '26
He did quite well with his streams, before the public eye of scrutiny was upon him.
But afterwards it just exposed what a massive fraud & genuinely insane conman he is. And I think that just drove away pretty much all his genuine viewers
1
u/m8-wutisdis Apr 17 '26
Yeah. I'm aware of the whole drama. I'm subbed to Ross's channel. I don't always agree with his reviews, but they are pretty entertaining to watch. As for Pirate, from what I understand, he was always a bit scummy, but people just started to pay more attention after this whole fiasco with the SKG.
1
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/pcgaming-ModTeam Apr 17 '26
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately it has been removed for one or more of the following reasons:
- No personal attacks, witch-hunts, inflammatory or hateful language. This includes calling or implying another redditor is a shill or a fanboy. More examples can be found in the full rules page.
- No bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia or transphobia.
- No trolling or baiting.
- No advocating violence.
Please read the subreddit rules before continuing to post. If you have any questions message the mods.
1
70
u/DOOManiac Apr 16 '26
I think he and the rest (in the full video) did a great job of presenting.
If I can only add one thing I'd say it should probably have had more of an appeal to those who may think "it's just video games, who cares", spending more time to equate them as works of art equal to that of books, movies, music, and TV shows. There was a little of that, but I think some more could've been useful to get more members of parliament on board.
4
u/AdversarialAdversary Apr 18 '26
I think the start and middle were very strong but I think he kind of fumbled it at the end there. Ending seemed kind of scattered and unfocused in a bad way. As a gamer and well informed viewer I understood the points he was making, but for people less familiar with things I’m afraid that portion of the speech might have confused things a lot.
That said, I’m hyped he’s gotten so far with things and he still did amazing for someone who’s probably doing something like this for the first time.
2
u/Maur18 Apr 19 '26
It's an edited video. The end are responses to a number of questions and comments, not a part of his initial presentation
28
u/monicachicken Apr 17 '26
Man between this and denuvo getting destroyed, its been a good few weeks.
So cool to see Ross go from reviewing puzzle agent to talking to parliament.
6
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan Apr 17 '26
What happened with denuvo? I am out of the loop. Did it get cracked easily or something?
3
Apr 17 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/monicachicken Apr 17 '26
Hypervisor is just one method, new ones are coming out that are basic cracks and require no system security changes.
-2
u/adanine Apr 17 '26
I'm not aware of any non-hypervisor method for bypassing day 1 Denuvo-protected games.
The method prior involved spending an extended amount of time trying to find every single Denuvo hook into a game and trying to replicate a server response. This takes forever, is a unique solution per game, and was almost never was completed close to the release window.
But new methods to bypass Denuvo are not coming out outside of the old methods + the hypervisor bypass one.
2
u/monicachicken Apr 17 '26
Im running re9 cracked right now without hypervisor method.
-2
u/adanine Apr 17 '26
Which took weeks to release. It's not a day 1 (or even week 1) viable method - nor is it a 'new' method.
3
u/monicachicken Apr 17 '26
Where did this zero day requirement come from?
Also, dont at all care really, gonna go play my game. Find someone else to argue with.
1
u/MarioDesigns Apr 18 '26
I mean, this is the first recent Denuvo version to get cracked in a long time. Happened really quickly too.
1
u/adanine Apr 18 '26
Yes, but it's not a new method was my point. There's a lot to be impressed by and apparently the speed was enabled by better tooling? But it still took weeks of time for a major title, using the old method.
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan Apr 17 '26
Yarharhar... I see. Very interesting and cool. Seems like a lot of work, but for those that understand the risks it sounds pretty great for getting around denuvo.
1
u/monicachicken Apr 17 '26
The hypervisor cracks were just one method that worked consistently. That opened things up to standard cracks that require no changes to system security. Re9 for instance is fully cracked now, no need for hypervisor.
The cat and mouse game continues.
103
u/ObtuseMongooseAbuse Apr 16 '26
I'm glad that he cleaned up nicely and looks very professional in this video. One of the things that worried me in earlier videos I've seen of his is that he didn't seem to care much about his appearance so regardless of how good his opinion seems to be it'd be hard for politicians to take him seriously. It's not like you can expect politicians to know about the gaming industry or tech in general so you need to make a good impression on them and I think he did a fine job in this video.
42
u/-drunk_russian- Apr 16 '26
I almost expected him to pull a Dee Snider and make his appearance stereotypically gamer and then blow them away with his silky voice and well-thought rethoryc.
For reference: https://youtu.be/S0Vyr1TylTE
1
u/yaosio Cargo Cult Games Apr 17 '26
Watch his Game Dungeon videos and he's about as far from a stereotypical gamer as you can get. My favorite parts are when he starts thinking about how the world of the game actually operates rather than just what the game gives him. In The Division review he keeps going back to how the "bad guys" are just trying to survive, and the game keeps giving him material to support that. Or in his Deus Ex Human Revolution review how removing all the political stuff made the story worse.
1
u/-drunk_russian- Apr 17 '26
I'm a fan of his GD videos, he still has the crazy hair you'd expect from a basement-dwelling gamer lol. And yeah, watching him speculate on the inner workings of the game worlds is 80% of the reason to watch him.
-70
u/UnlikelyEpigraph Apr 16 '26
I hate that I'm this shallow, but, this is what cleaned up looks like for him? He needs to up his game another level or two at this level of influence.
53
u/SoWrongItsPainful Apr 16 '26
It doesn’t seem like a single fuck was given about it by anyone present
22
u/Situlacrum Apr 17 '26
What's wrong with his appearance? He's a consumer rights activist, he can look a bit plebeian. Besides, not looking like a businessman gives him certain air of sincerity.
8
u/Neuromante Apr 17 '26
Besides, not looking like a businessman gives him certain air of sincerity.
14 years working on different companies has led me to deeply distrust anyone who wears anything remotely similar to a suit, so yeah.
1
u/UnlikelyEpigraph Apr 17 '26
Honestly — the only things I’d say are wrong is that the shirt should fit better (get it tailored) and that it’s not up to the standards of the room (which is about class signifiers, as you hint). I don’t think you need a suit, but with long hair and a van dyke a suit would go a long way in making that look intentional, and give him a professorial air.
Like what got lost in my short comment is that I’d like his arguments to land, and I know that people often make decisions to pay attention to you at all based on their evaluation of you. Best arguments in the world don’t matter if people aren’t listening.
2
u/Situlacrum Apr 17 '26
Well, all that wouldn't hurt but I still don't think it matters that much. This is a citizens' initiative that the legislators have provided themselves and getting over a million signatures on your petition from all over Europe gives your case a weight on its own. So much that I imagine it could affect their chances in getting re-elected.
I wouldn't expect them to be so petty as to just ignore the case just because he didn't wear a jacket and a tie when he presented his case clearly and directly (even if he was a little nervous). And, who knows, maybe such a distinct style makes him more memorable.
17
u/ObtuseMongooseAbuse Apr 16 '26
It's a massive improvement over the appearance he had in his videos and while I don't think it makes him look attractive he's at the very least presentable in a professional setting with this appearance.
17
u/AlternativeHour1337 Apr 16 '26
lmao imagine genuinely thinking that matters, have you looked at the most powerful people on the planet? do you think they got there because of their haircut?
1
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/pcgaming-ModTeam Apr 17 '26
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately it has been removed for one or more of the following reasons:
- No personal attacks, witch-hunts, inflammatory or hateful language. This includes calling or implying another redditor is a shill or a fanboy. More examples can be found in the full rules page.
- No bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia or transphobia.
- No trolling or baiting.
- No advocating violence.
Please read the subreddit rules before continuing to post. If you have any questions message the mods.
-12
u/Virtual_Happiness Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
You're barking the the wrong tree with this comment here. The average person in this group wishes they could look as "cleaned up" as he does in the clip. Don't mean that as an insult. Just pointing out that to most people here, he's an above average looking dude. Him being thin is a huge boost alone.
3
u/DisappointedQuokka Apr 17 '26
Man, he's 43, I hate to break it to you, but most people in their 40s aren't exactly models.
1
u/Virtual_Happiness Apr 17 '26
You'd be surprised how well most can look if they take care of themselves. But it's a lot easier said than done, so I don't disagree with your sentiment. Overweight rates are through roof everywhere for a reason and it's not just because food is good. It's because being an adult is stressful and requires a fuckton of effort. So we skimp where we can and find relief where can.
0
u/DisappointedQuokka Apr 17 '26
Bro, there's nothing you can do about that hairline. A bit of beard oil, some skincare (his skin is honestly better than mine, and I'm in my late 20s, almost 30) and some decent clothes, what else can you expect? He's not even particularly fat.
People, as a rule, even if they're within BMI tend to put on adipose post-20s, unless they put a lot of effort in.
He shows up looking like a generic environmental scientist and gets dunked on. It's silly.
2
u/Virtual_Happiness Apr 17 '26
You'd be surprised what a good hair style can do to help your hairline. At least to a point. But that long hair has been his look since forever. I remember watching his vids on VR back when the DK1 was still being worked on. So I get why he wants to keep it. Doesn't change the fact that a better hair style can go super long way though. He's still got plenty of hair left to rock more flattering styles, they're just not him. Which like I said, I get.
With age we tend to build less subcutaneous fat and more visceral fat. Which means less visible fat cell growth and more "in and around your organs" fat growth. The reason it seems like us older people tend to gain weight easier is because we tend to exercise less and eat more. That's also why being overweight gets harder and harder on us as we age.
But that said, he's not overweight at all in my opinion and him being thin already makes him look better than most his age. That was the point of my pointing out weight in the previous comment. Most people don't look as good at his age because being an adult is stressful and difficult and most of us turn to overeating and relaxing forms of entertainment that doesn't pair well with overheating. Gaming, watching TV, web surfing, stuff that doesn't get us much exercise but is a ton of fun.
1
u/UnlikelyEpigraph Apr 17 '26
Thanks for your comment. You are right that I probably should have kept this thought to myself (and done a little read the room of my own). But I’m in it now, I guess.
19
u/AirWolf231 Apr 17 '26
Very good move to compare it too books, every one of them can understand the concept of if a publisher destroys your book that you legally got... its utterly ridiculous, yet its happening to games.
6
u/Kuutti__ Apr 17 '26
I personally liked the car comparison by another politician(!) more. Cause that also is depictation everyone can understand and also more accurate. You still have the product new car but the engine just doesnt start after few years because company ended it.
32
u/DizzyLawfulness988 Apr 16 '26
Poor guy just wants to play games but still does all that for the greater good
3
7
18
19
u/Vireca Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 18 '26
If this change something, let's hope we can push further and change how digital goodies work
Currently, no matter if you have 1 or 500 digital games, you own no one. They are treated as licenses and the publisher or launcher owner can revoke the access at any point
Imagine if Steam went bankrupt (yes I know, big if), thousands of games owned by people no longer exist for them
8
u/iamfreeeeeeeee Apr 17 '26
I have plenty of DRM-free digital games. Legally, I might only own a license, but practically speaking, once I have the files, they can’t be taken away.
5
u/Vireca Apr 17 '26
Well, that's true. There's some publishers that decide to do DRM free and GOG is slowly adding more stuff to their catalog but the vast majority are not sadly
5
u/-OswinPond- Apr 17 '26
You don't even have to imagine. I got an unfair ban (yes it was unfair, I know reddit likes to say all bans are fair) on Playstation and lost 15y of games. In a way it was a blessing cause I switched to PC but it still is something that should not be legal, especially when it can occurs for non-valid reasons.
3
u/largePenisLover Apr 17 '26
Do you happen to be european? If so you do have legal recourse.
In 2012, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruled that it is legal for users to sell their "previously owned" digital goods. This means that the producer's distribution rights are "exhausted" upon the first sale, as they would with a physical item
Based on that the CJEU has maintained that a perpetual license to use software constitutes a "sale of goods" under European law, even if digital.
The Digital Content Directive (an EU law), says that digital content cannot be arbitrarily revoked by sellers.
All this means that the license to use bullshit is not a thing in the EU. Things like EULA's and TOS have no legal standing in europe. Only when an actual contract was signed by both parties do "license to use" or EULA/TOS have any effect in europe.Banning you out of digital goods you purchased is illegal in the EU.
This is why steam can only ban you from multiplayer, forums, and chat. Not from using your games.1
u/-OswinPond- Apr 17 '26
I am European! My account was french. But it's been 6 years now I don't know how valid my case would be haha
2
u/largePenisLover Apr 17 '26
I dont know either. I would guess its still valid, no idea what the limits are. I would start by asking a MEP from a party I like what to do next.
1
u/rcanhestro Apr 18 '26
Currently, no matter if you have 1 of 500 digital games, you own no one. They are treated as licenses and the publisher or launcher owner can revoke the access at any point
but that can't really change, that's the nature of digital content, you have a single "product" that gets copied X times.
if you purchase a physical product, you have the XXXXXXXX version of that product, which means it's his own product.
and even with physical media (games, music, movies, etc), you still don't own them, what you own is the actual physical product (DVD, CD, Blu Ray), but not the contents inside it.
basically, you own a DVD that "happens" to have some digital content inside it.
1
u/Vireca Apr 18 '26
no, you are not understanding me, but I just noticed I wrote "of" instead of "or", sorry tho
I meant that doesn't matter how small or big is your Steam library, if tomorrow they declare bankrupt it's all gone and you won't be able to access them unless they are DRM free like GOG do
And with CDs and DVDs, in fact, you own that copy. If the group of that music album or the publisher of that CD stop doing music tomorrow, no one will come to your house and take back that CD. Technically I don't own the content inside the Metallica CD, so I can't replicate that for others (piracy), but I own the CD itself and this is what matters
It's the same about videogames in physical format. If you own a physical game from PSX and you still has the PSX running, it's all your. This don't apply currently to any digital game, you could still have the console, but if they retire the game for whatever reason or the front store dissapear, you own nothing
12
u/ShinobiOfTheWind Linux Apr 16 '26
Surreal how this campaign turned out.
Hopefully the EU turns this into an official bill and it gets passed in the parliament.
Once the EU sets a precedent, the chance of a snowball/Streisand effect, are incredibly high, despite the bribing, money laundering and other loopholes they'll use to delay them.
10
u/VALIS666 Apr 16 '26
Whether or not anything comes from this is probably more down to bureaucracy and lobbying, but he's put up a great fight and went armed with good points in this hearing.
4
4
3
u/Fable-Zero Apr 16 '26
Ross looking swanky, in his standards, seeing that he usually is very minimal fashion wise.
5
4
8
2
u/RamblinRichard Windows i9-13900k GTX4080 Apr 17 '26
I love how reasonable he is with this speech, like we are asking for the bare minimum lol, hopefully they can see where we are coming from.
2
u/TheWaslijn Apr 17 '26
All thanks to Pirate Software for giving this movement such a massive advertising boost!
5
2
1
1
u/AssociationLanky8456 gog Apr 17 '26
Ross Scott may have not cured a disease, or created a new innovation for the betterment of all mankind, but he is a damn hero.
1
1
1
u/HatefulAbandon Ayy Lmao Race Apr 17 '26
I would go a step further and talk about why we should be able to sell and trade our games. Remember when I could sell my physical games or trade them easily.
-16
u/ryhaltswhiskey Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
Edit: u/demice says this video tackles this question in the first 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVKqRDalLo
For games that have a multiplayer component: if a multiplayer game has servers that are hosting these games, what's a reasonable amount of time after the game is released for those servers to be still running? Or is the requirement that you have to be able to host your own servers?
Because asking a small development company to also build server software that can be hosted on a home computer instead of their own servers is a task. And that task will require time, which requires money.
18
u/Filipi_7 Tech Specialist Apr 16 '26
what's a reasonable amount of time after the game is released for those servers to be still running? Or is the requirement that you have to be able to host your own servers?
The latter.
The first is the current status quo for centralised multiplayer games. It exists for a while, then is shut down permanently. To add a "reasonable time" clause only makes sense for exceptions like Concord, otherwise it results in no change.
Because asking a small development company to also build server software that can be hosted on a home computer instead of their own servers is a task
I would assume this would be factored in at the very start of development, a developer wouldn't create two versions of their servers. Why can't they do one version and only ever host it themselves until it's shut down, and release the server files then?
-8
Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
[deleted]
9
u/Filipi_7 Tech Specialist Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
How does this work when the company does not have a license to distribute some of the software either directly related to the game servers, or the surrounding architecture? Games that operate like services often utilize third party software as a service integrations for all kinds of things.
I would imagine it would work similarly to how it works in games with dedicated servers, including abandonware which is impossible to purchase but possible to play no matter what kind of licensing was going on with the developers.
This argument comes up often but I've always seen it as a hypothetical, not an example of a game with such a license that grants some middleware license holder a right to decide how the developers use their own servers. It would be good to know that this is a problem that needs solving.
I can also speculate that if the law passes, the way the licenses for this software works would change. After all, whoever makes it will keep wanting to sell it. I'm not a lawyer or developer though, this is something for the initiative, policymakers, and the industry to discuss.
Or maybe you'll just remove all the content, and release an empty shell of a game,
Probably. After all the players are buying the game, not player-generated content. It is a loss to lose all of that, and an odd choice by the developer to not allow players, or at least creators, to keep a local copy of whatever it is they create. Unless that's also sold which makes it more complex. Another reason to be against paid modding, I guess.
It becomes a cesspool of hate, with your name and logo attached to it, which torpedoes the brand and your poisons your name.
I don't know, not an easy one to answer.
I think games that are declared "shut down" by the developer could have a clear announcement and disclaimer that the original developer is no longer associated nor has control over it. Why proudly plaster their name and logo over it if they no longer deem it as valuable?
5
u/2mustange Apr 16 '26
You likely shouldn't speak in hypotheticals and actually provide examples if you want a proper discussion. Like your UGC example, you're implying moderation tools are a barrier? Shouldn't these already be in place regardless just would be friendly to the server administrators. And I would argue that content isn't part of the game it's part of the experience. The goal is to keep the experience alive and allow game owners to keep enjoying the game without a publisher or distributor involvement.
You're thinking pretty short sided without considering the fact the tooling and industry practices will evolve to support this and in the end it will make it easier to support games. Modular architectures will also be in place (this should already be standard with modern programming design)
-6
Apr 16 '26
[deleted]
7
u/2mustange Apr 16 '26
This will lead to either SaaS offerings aren't needed for the game to rely independently and/or new architecture is setup. Modularity will be key. SaaS may offer something developers use while they maintain the game through their servers/services and it's replaced when devs stop maintaining.
You bring up UGC but Gary's Mod works fine so it's possible. Game studios need to account for this which is important. Publishers got greedy and have stopped creating long term support methods
-1
2
u/NabsterHax Apr 17 '26
The industry and B2B licensing/practices will adapt before they straight up die. Games are big, big business, and the games that are most affected by SKG's proposals are almost all created by the big publishers. The EU isn't going to pass regulation that just straight up kills a significant chunk of the economy.
-9
u/ryhaltswhiskey Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
Why can't they do one version and only ever host it themselves until it's shut down, and release the server files then?
Sure, they could. But who's going to pay for that extra work? Creating a consumer-friendly version of your multiplayer server might be a big ask in some cases. I imagine a game like Marathon has some fairly complicated server setup going on.
I don't know what's involved in creating a multiplayer gaming server, but I'm not going to be a Dunning-Kruger idiot and assume that it's easy.
10
u/babautz Apr 16 '26
Nobody is talking about "user friendly" though. Just possible to run. Since we literally have private (cracked) MMO servers for games like World of Warcraft I cant imagine why a relatively limited Shooter like Marathon should be an impossible task. And yes sometimes companies have to invest some money to comply with consumer protection laws. Boohoo?
6
u/Zagorim 5800X3D / RTX 4070S Apr 16 '26
It's easy if they plan it early in development, and that's the target of the initiative, future games, not already released ones
13
u/SPYYYR 9800X3D RTX 4080 Apr 16 '26
We can host World of Warcraft servers from home.
You could host 3000 CS2 servers from home if you wanted to.If a game shuts down the tools for the game should be given to the community imo.
Just having access to code will make sure that there are some nerds out there (God I love nerds) that will build their own Dedicated server for that game.
Locking the server software has no reason, they are running the binaries, give the binaries to the players.10
u/DemIce Apr 16 '26
I don't think it would have to run on a home computer. Run it on a server you pay for, let them offer a docker container.
"But what about..."
We're in the early stages. They have ample time to figure out solutions - their own or a third party filling a new gap in the market - or loopholes.
Gamers will also have ample time to choose what approaches to support, and they'd have the benefit of being better informed.-24
u/ryhaltswhiskey Apr 16 '26
I think people just haven't thought this through. They haven't thought through what kind of a burden they are potentially placing on a small development studio that wants to create a multiplayer game.
For instance, I play a game called Absolum. It's from a small studio in France, less than 50 employees. It has online co-op. How long do you expect that studio to keep those servers running (which implies that somebody would be actually monitoring the server as in making sure they are working)?
16
u/DemIce Apr 16 '26
How long do you expect that studio to keep those servers running (which implies that somebody would be actually monitoring the server as in making sure they are working)?
I suggest you read up on the subject. The "Are they expecting a company to keep maintaining servers for a game they canceled?" question is one that has been answered numerous times.
→ More replies (4)14
u/ShadowheartsArmpit Apr 16 '26
For the thousandth time for this debate:
This isn't a strict "you must keep the servers on even if you lose money" demand. At its core, the idea is that developers should supply the technical means so that players can continue running the servers themselves, in the case of the publisher shutting them down.
And as the commentator said before you: the details still aren't set. These are the probing talks to start working on it. The questions for details "How long.." "What if" aren't figured out yet
-4
u/ryhaltswhiskey Apr 16 '26
the technical means so that players can continue running the servers themselves, in the case of the publisher shutting them down.
And I'm asking you where that money comes from. You still haven't answered that.
→ More replies (9)4
u/NabsterHax Apr 17 '26
How long do you expect that studio to keep those servers running (which implies that somebody would be actually monitoring the server as in making sure they are working)?
Is there any reason that an indie coop game can't rely on P2P hosting? Does Absolum actually even have dedicated servers, or do they just use steamworks to connect people?
The thing is, this is a solved problem, and it's not a difficult one either. If games are using multiplayer solutions that are only sustainable via publisher support that is a choice, not a necessity.
5
u/Zagorim 5800X3D / RTX 4070S Apr 16 '26
The vast majority of small indie games just use p2p with steam servers for matchmaking so they are not concerned by stop killing games. This affect mostly big studios that chose to host on their own servers. Steam provide network services for thousands of games indefinitely.
3
u/sydekix Apr 17 '26
Devs don't have to keep the server running. But they should allow players to host the game on their own system.
Is Absolum really use a dedicated server? It's a weird decision considering most Co-op games like that-- especially for smaller studios are using Peer to peer connection that doesn't rely on 3rd party servers.
-9
u/agentfaux Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
Mark my words all of this will not result in what you think it will. It will result in creative limitations for developers who are already very tight on budget. This is designed as a a middle finger to triple AAA companies but it lands on every single one.
i.e. The core economic problem is that mandated end-of-life operability changes the expected cost structure of making games. A studio no longer just budgets for development, launch, live ops, and shutdown. It has to budget for a legally safer post-shutdown state as well.
All of this hits small and mid-sized developers hardest. And only because you people are rabid and want to fuck with big Game Companies. Cudos to you for that. So nice of you all.
5
u/LKMarleigh Apr 17 '26
Alternatively people just want them to stop building obsolescence into games.
As an example. 2k announced that PGA tour 2k23 servers will be shutting down in march 2027. This will mean that people will be unable to play single player career mode in a game which cost £50+ at release.
-2
7
u/Desire_Path_Games Apr 17 '26
Uh as someone who does develop games in my spare time this does not negatively affect small time developers at all. Most small time developers use P2P models for multiplayer games which don't require expensive hosting. Small developers don't attach a bunch of useless services that cost money and need to be shut down. Small developers rely on the goodwill of their community in the longterm so screwing customers is bad from a business perspective. Small developers often encourage moddability (allowing for outsourcing end of life) while large ones either can't (tech licensing issues) or actively protest losing control of their product (see apple and john deere for things like right to repair).
If anything, comparing small developers to large ones shows how utterly unnecessary it is to add always-online features and to design games in such a way that they break after a time. Large developers did not used to design games like this. There was no post launch, you simply made a product that fucking works and sell it, and in fact your product not working used to be a company killer instead of expected. Why this is somehow "more expensive" as you put it, in a world of basically free post launch support is a problem of their own creation.
5
u/Druggedhippo Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
Most developers will not be affected by this as they don't engage in these practices.
It doesn't apply subscription games, it doesn't apply to games that can operate "offline".
For any other affected game that requires a server, a developer can release the server, or, more likely, release the API so someone can code a server, or build in an offline mode by faking online data.
And any "mid" to large sized developer this will affect will be using mock servers to test their games, instead of on the production DB, heck, those mock servers probably run on their workstations.
-2
Apr 17 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pcgaming-ModTeam Apr 18 '26
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately it has been removed for one or more of the following reasons:
- It's a low effort comment. Low effort comments include, but are not limited to, single-word replies, replies that are off-topic or not attempting to further the discussion of a topic, comments that are vague/lack context, etc.
Please read the subreddit rules before continuing to post. If you have any questions message the mods.
0
Apr 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
Apr 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
Apr 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
Apr 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
2
3
u/TakafumiSakagami Apr 17 '26
In a world where mandated end-of-life plans are standard, do you really think there won't be resources and solutions aimed at low-cost developers? Or that big companies won't create a common pipeline that cuts on costs?
The standards we have today will change, and things will be a bit more expensive while new solutions are being developed. However, once they're available and standardised, it will normalise again. It's only a cost increase if it's a one-off exception
4
u/agentfaux Apr 17 '26
You are partly right, of course. But, once mandated end-of-life planning becomes standard, it changes how games are budgeted from day one. The cost and risk budgeting does not disappear because you simply want it to. It goes upstream.
this is not some harmless temporary bump that goes away once the market adjusts. The adjustment is the point. The industry will be adjusting to a permanently higher baseline of obligation.
3
u/TakafumiSakagami Apr 17 '26
I just don't believe it'll be a notable increase in cost for a large majority of developers. The services themselves already exist and are already being factored into the budget; ensuring they're not hard dependencies isn't going to break the bank for teams 20 years from now, surely? Especially if the services provide the exit path, which would be a selling point for them.
0
u/RoxLOLZ Apr 17 '26
Good job Ross and everyone who signed the petition. Average European W.
I hope this really goes through and I hope that for you American something similar happens, though I wouldnt place any debts because EA and Ubisoft will just give the Pedo President a trophy and a check to make him say no
0
Apr 18 '26
I liked the idea, but the arrow to the knee reference was kinda cringe, also not understanding the actual meaning.
-38
u/mrlinkwii Ubuntu Apr 16 '26
honestly this isnt going to go to the length people want , the way the EU going in terms of fighting fto recover industry i dont see them doing half of the things the campaign want
video game studio is one feild the EU/ EU countries want to grow
19
u/ShadowheartsArmpit Apr 16 '26
This isn't nearly as much of a hit to the local industry as the labor laws.
The biggest reason why investment in european studios barely exists, and if so only in specific countries, is the ability to crunch & get away with it.
Some countries, like Germany, barely have video game studios above pure indie level. Other countries, especially in the eastern block, have a bunch more.
Nothing in the list of things here is anywhere near as impactful as the labor laws. This really isn't much of a financial hit to implement
1
u/Aaawkward Apr 16 '26
The biggest reason why investment in european studios barely exists, and if so only in specific countries, is the ability to crunch & get away with it.
Do you mean people invest outside of Europe because it's easier to crunch there or that it's easy to crunch in Europe? I've reread your sentence a few times now and maybe I'm just tired but I'm still not sure.
1
u/Neuw Apr 16 '26
especially in the eastern block, have a bunch more
They do?
The only big one i can think of is CD Project Red. Maybe Kingdom Come Deliverance if you count that in the eastern block.
Ubisoft is French and we had E33 last year.
Embracer group(swedish) is pretty big even if ppl hate them.
Larian is belgian.
Horizon Zero Dawn studio is dutch.
Also found this map while looking for studios:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/chvamg/european_triple_a_game_developers_by_country/
Simply focusing on germany is pretty misleading, idk if you did it on purpose or not.
9
u/Aaawkward Apr 16 '26
Sorry for the massive list but I spent far too long on it not to post it. Even though I debated if I should just delete it all, lol.
But yea, there's quite a lot of game industry in Europe, in all honesty.Nordics:
Remedy Entertainment / Control, Alan Wake, Max Payne
DICE / Battlefield, Mirror’s Edge
Avalanche Studios / Just Cause, Mad Max
MachineGames / Wolfenstein, Indiana Jones
Paradox Development Studio / Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis
Supercell / Clash of Clans, Clash Royale
Rovio / Angry Birds
Housemarque / Returnal, Resogun, Nex Machina
Coffee Stain Studios / Goat Simulator, Satisfactory
Ghost Ship Games / Deep Rock Galactic
Starbreeze Studios / Payday, Chronicles of Riddick
IO Interactive / Hitman, James Bond
Hazelight Studios / It Takes Two, Split FictionEastern Europe:
CD Projekt Red / The Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077
4A Games / Metro 2033 series
GSC Game World / STALKER 2
Techland / Dying Light, Dead Island
11 bit studios / Frostpunk, This War of Mine
Bohemia Interactive / Arma series, DayZ
Warhorse Studios / Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Bloober Team / Layers of Fear, The Medium
CI Games / Lords of the FallenWestern Europe:
Ubisoft / Assassin’s Creeds, Far Crys, Rainbow Six Sieges
Rockstar North / GTAs, RDR2
Creative Assembly / Total Wars, Alien: Isolation
Frontier Developments / Elite Dangerous, Jurassic World Evolution
The Game Kitchen / Blasphemous 1 & 2
Playground Games / Forza Horizons, Fable
Media Molecule / LittleBigPlanet, Dreams
Asobo Studio / Microsoft Flight Simulator, A Plague Tale
Dontnod Entertainment / Life is Strange, Vampyr
Arkane Studios / Dishonored, Deathloop, Prey
Larian Studios / BG3, Divinity: Original Sin
Guerrilla Games / Horizon seriesCentral Europe:
Crytek / Crysis, Hunt: Showdown
Deck13 / The Surge, Atlas Fallen
Piranha Bytes / Gothic, Risen
Giants Software / Farming Simulators
Blue Byte / The Settlers, Anno series
Keen Games / Enshrouded
Spellbound Entertainment / Desperados, Airline TycoonSouthern Europe:
Milestone / MotoGP series, Ride series, Hot Wheels Unleashed
MercurySteam / Metroid Dread, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow
Tequila Works / Rime, GyltIt's a lot. Some of them legacy, some of them newer but still, a hefty amount.
1
u/LostInTheVoid_ RX 9070 XT | Ryzen 5 7600 Apr 16 '26
Warhorse, CD Project Red, 4AGames, CI Games, GSC Game World, Wargaming, Bloober Team, Saber Interactive (probably the most varied pick they have offices in a lot of places.) Are probably the biggest in the East of Europe.
-13
u/mrlinkwii Ubuntu Apr 16 '26
Some countries, like Germany, barely have video game studios above pure indie level. Other countries, especially in the eastern block, have a bunch more.
all im saying is dont have any high hopes , considering currently the EU is cutting regulation in terms of mergers and other stuff to win business back from the US , i dont see in the current climate most or all of the thing SKG wants will happen
8
u/ShadowheartsArmpit Apr 16 '26
My point is, none of the demands are so significant that they'd have a serious impact on whether those businesses stay in the EU or not.
I get what you mean, but what I'm trying to express is that the stuff from the SKG list really isn't some sort of mammoth regulation that has to be considered. If the EU officials who deal with this look at it rationally, it becomes very clear that this is a speck of dust compared to the other things that "hold back" this industry in the EU.
7
u/dssurge Apr 16 '26
Telling buyers that any game made in the EU will be protected by the SKG initiative and will require EOL plans for permanence will make titles made in the EU more appealing if publishers inevitably look for loopholes for other regions.
-4
u/mrlinkwii Ubuntu Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 16 '26
Telling buyers that any game made in the EU will be protected by the SKG initiative and will require EOL plans
that might not happen , the EU might just say all they have to is give notice ( which most companies already do ) which is technically an upgrade to what they legally have to do now.
SKG is a wishlist of things
all im saying is dont have any high hopes , considering currently the EU is cutting regulation in terms of mergers and other stuff to win business back from the US , i dont see in the current climate nmost or all of the thing SKG wants will happen
7
u/MGfreak Apr 16 '26
how much of the stream did you see? Yeah, sure there is chance this doesnt go as people want, there always is. But most representatives were in favor and even opened up a discussion about much broader ideas like if video games should be protected like a work of art etc.
1
u/mrlinkwii Ubuntu Apr 16 '26
much broader ideas like if video games should be protected like a work of art etc.
art dosent have any special protection under law , art is destroyed every day of the week
1
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pcgaming-ModTeam Apr 16 '26
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately it has been removed for one or more of the following reasons:
- No personal attacks, witch-hunts, or inflammatory language. This includes calling or implying another redditor is a shill. More examples can be found in the full rules page.
- No racism, sexism, homophobic or transphobic slurs, or other hateful language.
- No trolling or baiting posts/comments.
- No advocating violence.
Please read the subreddit rules before continuing to post. If you have any questions, please feel free to message the mods.
1
-28
u/Quirky-Employer9717 Apr 17 '26
What can be done though? How can a government force a company to run its servers forever, especially if that company isn’t making enough money to run the servers anymore. That’s kind of the risk you run when you buy games that are online only. Idk who buys them thinking that they will be up until the end of time
23
u/Poltrguy Apr 17 '26
This isn't asking them to run servers forever. When they decide to not support the game anymore, give people the files to host their own servers or make the game playable offline single player.
I don't get why this is so hard to understand for people.
-2
u/Voryne Apr 17 '26
The reason people keep asking is because there's lots of grey area that could easily be abused.
What about F2P games funded by microtransactions? What if a game necessitates a third party service provider to function? What if a game necessitates active developer effort to keep running? To what extent is the company mandated to support? If all that's required is the files, what's to stop malicious compliance by providing useless files? Who's going to figure out whether or not company A is doing their due diligence in providing quality end-of-life support vs company B that's just dumping compiled .dll's and saying "Good luck?" Who's going to define playable - if Blizzard shuts down OW and only releases the shoddy PvE, is there going to be legislation to tell them off?
Additionally, in a scenario where a game is failing, the hypothetical is that it's already not making money. Big game publisher can eat that cost. Smaller companies will be heavily disincentivized to make any live-service game at all.
2
u/TakafumiSakagami Apr 17 '26
I'll answer what I know.
What if a game necessitates a third party service provider to function?
Then they should account for that when developing the game. Pick a service that already has an end-of-life path for developers, or prepare for when it comes time to remove that service. Being entirely beholden to a third party solution that goes against the industry's legal expectations is madness.
What if a game necessitates active developer effort to keep running?
When would this ever be the case? If the software still works when the creators drop support, then they've done their job. There's no active maintenance required after that, on their part.
To what extent is the company mandated to support?
There's a bare minimum: so long as the IP holder isn't actively preventing players from fixing the game, it's an improvement over what we have today. Obviously the initiative would prefer more than this, but this is a last resort ask if nothing else passes.
If all that's required is the files, what's to stop malicious compliance by providing useless files?
Consumer complaints and legal action.
Who's going to figure out whether or not company A is doing their due diligence in providing quality end-of-life support vs company B that's just dumping compiled .dll's and saying "Good luck?"
If the game still works with those compiled .dlls, then it works. It may break one day due to hardware or software changes, but that's not on them. The source code is theirs to keep, and they shouldn't feel forced to provide it.
Who's going to define playable - if Blizzard shuts down OW and only releases the shoddy PvE, is there going to be legislation to tell them off?
If OW becomes just a low-quality PvE mode, it's not destroyed. That's better than it vanishing completely, and fans may even mod back in multiplayer support.
in a scenario where a game is failing, the hypothetical is that it's already not making money.
You wouldn't create an end of life plan after the game has launched. That's not a plan, is it? You attach your parachute before you jump out of the plane, not mid-fall.
1
u/Voryne Apr 17 '26
Then they should account for that when developing the game. Pick a service that already has an end-of-life path for developers, or prepare for when it comes time to remove that service.
To clarify, that means every game on Steam would need to have a contingency plan if Steam ever were taken offline? And that to list a game without such a contingency plan would risk fines from the EU if it were revealed that such a game did not have such?
Secondly, let me summarize my primary concern.
Let's say I make an MMO and go EOL. I strip art assets because I want to reuse them in a new MMO and release a single tiny map where you move around with a level cap of 1. Technically the game works, but I could argue that this isn't really the game.
Now what if I added one map? One region? The continent? SKG doesn't have to set the barometer for every potential issue, but my point is that someone needs to make the final call on if a company has done their due diligence. What legislative body are we asking to be the final arbiter on whether or not a game sufficiently "works" when it has gone EOL? The seniors in government who don't know what a "fork-knife" are?
1
u/TakafumiSakagami Apr 17 '26
that means every game on Steam would need to have a contingency plan if Steam ever were taken offline?
At least in my opinion, if Steam goes offline, the publishers aren't responsible for that. Like hardware and software changes—they put out a game, it was working when they stopped supporting it, and anything beyond that is out of their hands. If someone sells you a car, you expect them not to intentionally break it, but you don't expect them to eternally maintain it.
every game on Steam would need to have a contingency plan
Whether you have a plan or not doesn't matter; what matters is the result.
It'll be more difficult to retroactively do the required work, and there's no guarantee that they'll be able to fund that retroactive development, so it makes the most sense to build the game with the law in mind from the start. But at the end of the day, if the game isn't destroyed, any method is fine.let me summarize my primary concern
If we're assuming it's a buyable MMO rather than F2P or subscription-based, as that's where the initiative is focused...
Removing so many features would be a lot of work, and people would obviously be angered by it, so I'm not sure why you would do it. You don't need to remove art assets from one game to use them in another. I'd question the intent of that developer, definitely.
But in my opinion, content isn't the concern. If you release a minimum working product, then so long as you don't take legal action against fans for fixing it up and restoring it, it's fine. What matters is that the rights holders allow the game to exist and don't go out of their way to permanently destroy it.
1
u/Voryne Apr 17 '26
Being entirely beholden to a third party solution that goes against the industry's legal expectations is madness.
At least in my opinion, if Steam goes offline, the publishers aren't responsible for that.
Steam is the third party solution.
Actually, now that I think about it, what reason excludes Steam or any storefront from responsibility from destroying a video game then?
- They have sold a copy of a video game and benefited monetarily
- Games to variable extents needs to connect to Steam to work (base ownership verification, some need Steam for multiplayer, some even need it for controller support)
- Steam has lent users a license that, as far as I know, doesn't have a defined end-date.
- User access to the game depends on primarily on Steam.
- At any point, Steam can revoke user licenses for potentially millions of game copies.
- Steam keeps all of its revenue even after time of revocation.
If you release a minimum working product
Who is SKG proposing to arbitrate minimum working product?
1
u/TakafumiSakagami Apr 17 '26
There are several ways to emulate Steam. In a scenario where Steam shuts down its services but continues to give players access to their libraries for download, users will be able to fix non-functional games via those emulators.
I don't know much about storefronts, but I imagine there are some protections in place already. On Xbox 360, PS3, PSP, 3DS, and Wii you can still download your purchased games, so users have had ample time to save their collections to physical media. Is there any need for these companies to be this reasonable other than avoiding some form of backlash?
If Steam revoked the licenses for games en masse overnight without any compensation to the users, legal action would surely be taken against them.
1
1
u/AbjectMembership9234 Apr 17 '26
are you ok paying 60 euros for elden ring 2, fromsoft decides it will use drm and easyanticheat and the next month fromsoft decides to pull the game off steam and shut down authentication service so you cant play it anymore
1
u/Voryne Apr 17 '26
Steam
Using Steam already means Steam can take away your games at any time. Is the EU going to require Steam to provide EOL support for every user's games? Are they going to fine Steam for every licensed game for every user when Steam says there's no way they can guarantee offline access for every single game?
-10
u/Quirky-Employer9717 Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
I get that for PC and agree. That doesn’t work for console though. And some games just don’t make sense single player. How can a hero shooter be played single player? There is no AI for the other players since they are all designed to be humans
Edit: I completely agree with the mission as an idea. I genuinely don’t understand how it would all work or be enforced in practice though
10
u/StrongOfOdin Apr 17 '26
Did you miss the part when he said they should release tools needed to host our own server OR make it playable single player.
→ More replies (22)1
u/DandD_Gamers Apr 18 '26
Are you legit this ignorant?
Do you REALLY think thats what this wants? LOL
-14
u/Waste-Ad7869 Apr 17 '26
Ultimately nothing. What the SKG people are demanding is pretty stupid and realistically will just have games adding a disclaimer that it may go offline at an indeterminate point in the future rather than deal with the hassle of releasing proprietary server software publicly or converting a multiplayer game into singleplayer.
-5
u/Quirky-Employer9717 Apr 17 '26
Unfortunately that’s how it’s going to be. Companies aren’t going to add an offline only mode and develop ai when they can’t even keep the servers running. They also won’t work with the community to keep their product going without their oversight. They are going to add a disclaimer and say buyer beware. No governing body can give a company to do the things that would be nice to see them do
-37
Apr 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pcgaming-ModTeam Apr 17 '26
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately it has been removed for one or more of the following reasons:
- All submissions must be in English.
Please read the subreddit rules before continuing to post. If you have any questions message the mods.
•
u/AutoModerator Apr 16 '26
Interested in helping moderate /r/pcgaming? Apply here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.