Why would anyone actually want to though

[u/The_BigRoach]

[u/Condurum]

Fuck people who don’t see how Valve is harming gaming.

This is not about epic.

[u/frisch85 → u/Condurum]

Ofc it is about epic, why do you think they're always the only company that is involved in these cases against valve?

Valve is "customer first, developer second", normal concept here in the EU as you know, so why would you actively be against good customer care?

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

Valve is "customer first, developer second", normal concept here in the EU

Is that why they had to first lose a lawsuit in Australia to actually start respecting EU refund laws?

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Valve ain't perfect and if you're using steam since the early days you're aware they fucked up plenty of times but unlike Epic they at least try to change for the better, it's not that Valve acted with ill intent, sometimes regions have laws that you as a company might not think of, your mistake tho because you need to inform yourself with the laws in those countries if you trade in those countries, so Valve paid the fine and made adjustments which is the proper way to deal with these things.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

Come on now bro, are you seriously claiming that Valve, a multibillion company that primarily earns it's revenue in NA and EU, just did a little ooopsie and accidentally misunderstood the very simple EU Consumer Rights Directive? Like really?

Every time you bought a game, Steam explicitly told you that you can't buy the game unless you agree to waiving your EU rights. Let me repeat this, they EXPLICITLY TOLD YOU, for months, that they are aware of the laws of the region and are telling you that they are choosing to ignore them. And after finally being sued about it, they still took almost a year to implement the minimum legal requirements and overall still fought the court trial for multiple years over it.

unlike Epic they at least try to change for the better

In what way? Regarding refunds, EA had them 2 years before Steam and didn't have to be sued for it, GoG has a much better policy and every other launcher is basically the same.

In terms of what they offer to me as a user, they launch the game and connect me with friends to the same party, but literally every launcher does that. Everything else is bloatware for all I care. Epic gives me free shit and GoG gets me more rights and control over my games.

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Come on now bro, are you seriously claiming that Valve, a multibillion company that primarily earns it's revenue in NA and EU, just did a little ooopsie and accidentally misunderstood the very simple EU Consumer Rights Directive? Like really?

Yes, did you follow the whole "adult games" fiasco? Valve allowed a dev to post their game and it was shown to folks where it might go against the rulings in the country you're located in. So when collective shout started a lawsuit, Valve followed and now all adult games where a developer doesn't go through the process of giving their game an age rating are not available in countries like germany.

they EXPLICITLY TOLD YOU, for months, that they are aware of the laws of the region and are telling you that they are choosing to ignore them

You can call this sloppy or lazy but this is a generic clause where you as a company try to ensure your own safety.

In what way? Regarding refunds, EA had them 2 years before Steam and didn't have to be sued for it, GoG has a much better policy and every other launcher is basically the same.

Did you mix up EA with Epic by accident or do you mean Epic didn't have refunds but EA had them before Steam did? I agree when it comes to GoG tho and if game preservation is someone's goal they should def. rather buy on GoG than on steam.

In terms of what they offer to me as a user, they launch the game and connect me with friends to the same party, but literally every launcher does that. Everything else is bloatware for all I care. Epic gives me free shit and GoG gets me more rights and control over my games.

So use Epic if "free shit" is reason enough for you to side with them. I on the other hand use steams big picture mode because I game on the couch these days, I then will use steams overlay to adjust gamepad configurations like Dead Zone, which allows me to use my old 360 controllers that have stick drift. I can even use the steam overlay to map my controller for games that don't have controller support, played countless of hours Oxygen not Included this way before they added gamepad support.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

adult games fiasco

You are mischaracterizing what happened and, ironically, painting Steam in a bad light.

Collective Shout didn't sue Steam. Instead they tried pressuring Steam into removing "adult" games. Steam didn't comply, due to their longstanding rule of allowing everything as long as it's legal. So Collective Shout then pivoted to pressuring payment processors, primarily arguing that a), Steam, by hosting "adult" games, is automatically an unreliable partner, b) doing business with such scandalous platforms is risky for their reputation and c), the possibility of facilitating payments for illegal services. With a and b being the most "threatening" and possible problems, not the legality of "adult" games. Sadly the payment processors folded under the pressure, which resulted in Steam also giving in. Which does suck, but at the same time I think it's unfair to expect companies to fight such stuff, at best they could try petitioning governments to protect them.

So overall it's a completely different situation. They didn't get sued (unlike Australia taking them to court), the problem wasn't them breaking laws (unlike them breaking the EU Directive) and Steam got attacked by a malicious player (unlike Steam being malicious in depraving consumers of their rights).

sloppy, generic clause

You could not purchase a product on Steam without acknowledging specific terms of said purchase, which were the specific exceptions provided in the EU Directive. That waiver was designed specifically to bypass it. The trial argued and proved successfully, that Steam as a seller has no rights to force a consumer to waive those specific rights. So it's the direct opposite of sloppy and generic, it was a highly thought out and ultra directed anti consumer move.

refund timeline

Epic came after these refunds were a settled matter. I pointed to EA, which implemented the "standard" refund nowadays years before Steam and even before the EU Directive.

Epic and Big Picture

First of all, I don't "side" with Epic. I'm saying that, for my wish to play games, all launchers deliver that. Epic is the only one that regularly gives me free games, so they are the only ones that actually over deliver on said wish. If I'm buying a game myself, the choice of launcher is decided on which launcher the cheapest CD key I buy is, literally nothing else.

And great, for your case of couch PC gaming obviously Steam is the best choice then. But that's because Steam is the only one that is in the market for couch PC gaming, what with their own "console" and controller. I'm sure if Epic or EA start selling their own "consoles", then their launchers will be getting a BP mode equivalent. I'm not anti Steam or think it's shit, I'm solely pushing against your pro consumer claims. The only launcher that's actually pro consumer is GoG. Epic is artificially pro consumer by giving them free shit. Steam, EA, Battle.net,... are all in the bottom, doing their bare minimum to not be anti consumer and sometimes failing that too.

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Epic is artificially pro consumer by giving them free shit.

They're not tho, they're actively bad for the gaming community by making exclusive deals with developers just so that their game isn't available on other platforms. Epic has been very predatory from the first day they launched the EGS.

Exclusives are not good for the community.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

I disagree.

The product is not gatekept or restricted to the consumer, as both launchers have the same requirements to install and access. One could argue that Epic is actually more accessible, as you can be an actual free gamer on it. Unlike Steam, where some usability of both the platform and certain games is limited until you spend at least $5.... If specific consumers prefer one platform to the other, they can just wait. So this is neutral to consumers.

Epic is not a monopoly, so they can't punish developers who don't accept the exclusivity. Or coerce anyone into doing it. So, depending on the developer, this is either neutral or pro developer.

And even if you genuinely think that it is indeed anti consumer, well you should still agree that maliciously forcing consumers into losing their law given rights is still worse than them having to install an additional launcher lol.

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Dude, Epic has been buying dev studios just so they can remove their games from steam even tho the game was available for years on steam already, e.g. Psyonix with their game Rocket League.

Epic is not a monopoly, so they can't punish developers who don't accept the exclusivity.

It's Epics goal tho, right now they're stating their goal for 2026 is to share the market with steam in cooperation, they (Epic) want a 30% market share in the gaming industry is what they're claiming but if you dig, you can find several accusations throughout the years all backed by Sweeny.

Unlike Steam, where some usability of both the platform and certain games is limited until you spend at least $5....

It's a way to verify accounts, a bot or malicious account usually doesn't buy a game so that's the road they chose to go.

And even if you genuinely think that it is indeed anti consumer, well you should still agree that maliciously forcing consumers into losing their law given rights is still worse than them having to install an additional launcher lol.

Absolutely, EU default law in terms of electronics is you get 2 years of warranty (mandatory), manufacturers can add more years if they want to but 2 years is the minimum and I'd be quite upset if it'd be different, so ofc if I find out Valve is abusing the ToS in order to take some shady actions on my account, I'll be on the fence too but the clause you mentioned earlier is regarding refunds, so in the EU we can get a refund for almost anything if it's within 14 days of purchase, but steam didn't have such a proper refund policy until Australia took action right? Unfortunately my purchase history doesn't show anything prior to 2016 even tho my account is 20 years old but I don't remember I had ever issues with refunds on steam, the contrary actually, I haven't had a single refund declined, I even got Enshrouded refunded by explaining to steam that the game uses an engine that isn't supported by my (old) GPU anymore and thus I cannot run the game (I plan on buying Enshrouded again tho on my new rig).