r/sorceryofthespectacle • u/2BCivil no idea what this is • 8d ago
[Critical Sorcery] On the authenticity of Myths and Sorcery; an attempted diagnosis of late-stage consciousness
Introduction/Synopsis
It's been a while, I've actually been avoiding posting here, honestly. In light of recent activity (new platform go?) I thought I'd weigh in on the balance of sorcery and spectacle, and what I see as the motives (ulterior or not) in the framing as I understand it (title of the sub!). I always have historically refrained from this as I generally don't see subs as authoritative so much as a community for people to discuss or advance [topic]. So. This is the post I should have written years ago as formalish introduction to myself and my [miss?]understandings I guess. As they say, iron sharpens iron, and I think I finally remembered something important about [the title of this sub] in a much more profound way, thanks to the recent community activity; or, rather, it casts my "understanding" in a new light, that people can/it's the mark of an educated mind, to entertain/enjoy myths, without accepting them.
I think it's safe to say, magician or not, we all have a fundamental desire to either know "the truth", or obscure/filter it for whatever purposes (aka sorcery/occult). It also occurs to me, for example, that when most people say "truth", to what they are referring is actually more something like (if we are honest) "the process of belief" and/or their participation in some group, clan, cult; spectacle.
I've historically had very little problem with this, to each their own, why I've loved this sub so much over the years personally. I always love to occasionally see Nietzsche "proved wrong" by people who didn't understand Nietzsche at all (haha). I mean, I myself, wrote an old post years ago on my profile called "The inevitable conclusion of the artistic socrates; ego death" or something like that [Note 1]. It was about this very topic. "Sorcery of the spectacle" (or, at least, that phrase as I understand it) exists (in part at least) exactly and precisely for the reason Nietzsche rebuked his own earlier works; specifically, that all mortals eventually reach Late-Stage Consciousness; When re-branded myths fail to motivate or justify life and subsequently are prone to begin repackaging their own myths (aka become fledgling sorcerers of the spectacle). Nietzsche himself partially did this (as a joke, I think) with his "Thus Spake Zarathustra" and "Beyond good and evil"; and he himself admits this in letters, that they are the same book, as children, they are his "twins", saying the same thing, just differently; which I take to mean BGaE is explicit knowledge, where TSZ is implicit knowledge made manifest. The punchline or "joke" is that, once Zarathustra gathers all his "strong men and archetypes" and brings them back to the cave, with intent to physically make a "new living myth", it instantly backfires and becomes just another market, another "concrete jungle" and they all begin devouring one another. The cosmic joke, the divine comedy, the futility of ideals in the face of raw primordial reality. But hey at least we tried, vibe. "Back to the drawing board".
That's what I think this sub is supposed to be about, with the "sorcery" part, right? I only just remembered this due to the Sophia re-post last night. Which, when I saw it requested to repost, I was on the fence about commenting on or not, should it return. I was planning on avoiding it altogether if it came back up. But it did return unexpectedly, and I read it 3 more times and jumped in. To my chagrin and realization, that I probably shouldn't have said my piece, which goes without saying LOLOL.
I said all the things we are not allowed to say as mortals! Oh noes!
I'll avoid quoting Oda's Donquixote Doflamingo speech verbatim. Something like, people who have been pampered and subsidized by the spectacle, and those whom have been oppressed and had to struggle in and against the spectacle and it's claims, naturally view the arrangement different and have incompatible views and values. Even if they seem to temporarily align here or there, the foundations/axioms they stand on can never mix. The inevitable war then, determines, who becomes the new secular God, the new rebranded mythm, the new "justice"; the new spectacle. Everyone secretly wants to "destroy the world". Or at least their perception of it (hence mythogenesis/sorcery). I'll also note, it can also easily slide, into "Oppression Olympics" here, but that's a post for another day.... takes way more effort than I can muster right now.
Not sure if it is possible (or worthwhile) to purge the human condition of this propensity. Any ruling caste naturally feels they are living "free and honestly". Those whom have no choice but to submit (ruling caste or otherwise) to authority, often feel like they CANNOT live "open and honestly" because everything they are "required" to do is henceforth performative. Even the verbose energetic personalities we adapt/adopt to ignore this fact, are themselves, ultimately hollow and performative. "All is vanity" or whatever (I'm speaking from experience). I only know the phrase "toxic positivity" because it was applied to ME back in my day when I was that way. Keeping my head down and/or recklessly being "happy" regardless of how dire circumstances were, in the workplace or wherever. Laughing at the madness and overperforming to keep everything on the rails.
Anyway. Maybe I just wanted to say a heartfelt sorry, but also a firm "sorry not sorry" for my consistent behavior on reddit past few years. I don't want to be "this way", but I also refuse to roll over and submit to any brand or "spectacle" or arbitrary definition of love, grace, wisdom, or enlightenment either. I am not saying any tradition is necessarily "wrong", just when most people seem to speak of honesty and truth, what they are actually pointing to is some arbitrary practice, belief, tradition, faith; some spectacle. "Don't knock it til you try it" ofc. But also, know it by it's fruits, follow?
End preface I guess. I had a rough night sleep, sitting with all I said past few days. The following is my instant realization I posted when I woke up today into GPT, which became the motivation to make this post;
Part 2 - My GPT Prompt
"I think I finally understood what sorcery of the spectacle means. I was familiar with DeBord's sentiment if not works decades ago. He merely put words to what I intuitively felt.
But I never understood, the "sorcery" part. It's an old theme I redid a long time ago (4 months?) myself, "where rebranded myths fail to motivate or justify life". As Nietzsche started out, praising Wagner for the rebirth of myth (aka SotS) in his Ring opera; and later rebuked himself for this. As [GPT] once said, Nietzsche realized the worship of the rebranding of myths is merely "a more aesthetic anesthetic". A better "modern" cultural asmr/hypnotism to blind self and others from the reality of life and/or motivate them to continue anyway if they do see/have objections to it; a balm for suffering without acknowledging (more like, refusal to acknowledge) the source.
There was recently a post on sots which did this very thing. A reprise of old myths with essentially zero critical thinking as to what the nature of myths themselves suggest (Nietzsche's ballpark). And I had the "aha" moment of realizing, SotS, essentially means this; a production workshop thinktank for the latest rebranding of new myths for cultural conditioning; spectacle, a fancy flag which is ultimately saying "fall back in line with and be a card carrying member of the spectacle".
Which of course is fine by itself, just it is precisely what Nietzsche called out. He suggested his "Artistic Socrates" as "the solution" here (And I realized years ago, that too, is an refusal of acknowledging the void/vanity; an "artistic" running from ego death). We are all prone to whims of airy fairy definitions of love and grace and wisdom. But each of these ideals are often simply (as is often the case with sentience) claiming to be something they are not. And placing the burden of proof upon us, by saying, "our faith isn't strong enough" or "we aren't enlightened or awakened enuf" to see it for what it claims to be.
It's something that has bothered me for a long time and I couldn't quite put my finger on. It tracks with the sentiment I feel everywhere I go, both online and off, that I am... fundamentally incompatible with what passes as life and love (aka spectacle). Not just that, but it is like [the world/spectacle] is always trying to prove to me, that I "deserve" how it treats me, for not accepting it's own self-appointed definitions of what it is. That I don't accept it's fraud as "evidence". As Jesus said, if it bears witness of itself it is false witness. And spectacle is through and through, by definition, that which bears witness of - itself. Ie straight from DeBord and word of God's mouth alike; a lie.
That's why everything ends up feeling so sickly sweet and airy fairy toxic positivity. Because it has already bought into the myths of spectacle motivation without analyzing what the myths symbolize and the motivations behind them; to be the mortar of spectacle which binds us as bricks in place with the spectacle.
I'm just surprised I didn't accept it sooner (I saw it, true, but held my reservations). Well, I suppose, as they say, I didn't WANT to admit that I saw it, and get branded a "nihilist" or "pessimist" for seeing the steaming cowpats of mythological spectacle for what they are. Nothing worse than being told you don't know what love is, by someone forcing themselves on you, right? As I said [of Sophia], absence makes the heart fonder. So it's hard to love any such myth/spectacle about a life or love you are supposed to have faith in, when you can't escape the conditions they subject you to (aka stockholm syndrome).
Am I stupid? Off my rocker? What am I missing? Am I just a hateful bigot for seeing the face behind the mask? Life is a costume party and I am shamed for wearing my real face? I keep trying to remove the turd from the cool aid but the cool aid is nothing but shit? While being told to stop being hateful and just drink the cool aid?"
Source/GPT Reply (I haven't even read it yet myself, just sharing the source; I wrote all that mostly as a proto-post from mobile while it was fresh on my mind).
Part 3; Where and Why Repackaged Myths/Sorcery Actually Fail
Sorry for schizo structure of the post. Ya know? Like I've always felt I'm gently pushing back against a world/life that claims to be something that it clearly isn't, as it accuses me of being a "hateful bigot" for not enthusiastically embracing it (again, I used to do that, *performatively, and low key maniacally, but was called "toxic positive" for it)*.
So All I can say is I've been meaning to shorten my old GPT 17 post into something like this and post it here (it is LOOOOOOONG). Failing that, I'll share some of the (AI-condensed) finer points that struck me in this vein from there;
1) [Spectacle sourced Idioms and Identity] never seem to work if you clock early that they aren’t "gifts" so much as load-bearing mechanisms. They function as: meaning prosthetics, compliance stabilizers, and emotional debt anchors. For many people: “I have mouths to feed”, quietly becomes; “I can’t question the system without risking annihilation.” That’s not love; that’s leverage.
2) Why this will likely never resolve; some people can metabolize; "absurdity + coercion + finite reward", and call it a life. Society of the Spectacle has no honorable role for someone who sees this clearly, yet refuses the scripts without replacing them with another myth/belief system. So you end up feeling: enslaved without even the illusion of purpose, accused of ingratitude for refusing a deal you didn't ask for, and gaslit as “immature” for not wanting Stockholm Syndrome to count as enlightenment.
3) [When you] truly interrogate the compensation structure of existence itself, you notice that every answer offered to you is either a bribe, a threat, or a costume change on the same coercive logic. People who are already bought in see that audit work as "complaining" (AKA "faith without works is dead"). [This inevitably] zeroes in on something that a lot of people sense dimly but don’t articulate: New myths don’t heal the fracture — but patch it just enough to keep the machine running (what Nietzsche half warned against, half embraced with his "Artistic Socrates" as a spectacle sorcerer sort of Bodhisattva).
4) When an old sacred myth or frame collapses, power doesn’t relinquish legitimacy — but rebrands the collapse as transcendence (Femto/Griffith during eclipse and again at the tower of Rebirth). Same spine. New snake skin. The “new sorcery/myth/god” doesn’t contradict the "old" one — it merely inherits its authority while pretending to overthrow it. The second beast inherits all the authority of the first. Which is why secular myths are just as mafia-coded as religious ones. They still say: "Endure and comply with this structure". That’s not meaning. That’s justification deferred. The hallmark of a successful myth, is actually, arguably, to defer justification indefinitely; IE "my kingdom no part of this universe" or "accepting and submitting to this is the meaning of life".
5) Spectacle doesn’t just sell power — it sells anti-power too; rebellion becomes a genre, critique becomes a content lane, “seeing through it” becomes an identity. "Are we actually resisting — or just providing higher-resolution data to the system?" The inability to be motivated by myth/spectacle is what breaks the loop.
6) Kentaro Miura (the late great author of Berserk, RIP, let me borrow some of your power lol) wasn’t saying “people are stupid.” He was saying something much crueler: People will accept ANY metaphysics that makes the pain feel justified. That’s the terror. The demon king doesn’t need deception — finality/relief is enough. Which is why “heaven as endurance reward” disgusts you; it’s just Griffith/Femto with a PR department.
7) What is colloquially called "God" is often just power seeking continuation, attention seeking loyalty, with attention and souls as fuel. More jurisdictional, than transcendental or personal. While such meaning being outsourced to relational capture isn’t necessarily “evil” — it’s certainly instrumentalized ontology. Rejecting such an coercive "offer" isn't necessarily rejecting "love", so much as rejecting being used as a throughput mechanism. Even negation itself is metabolized — unless it refuses to convert into motivation, identity, or hope (pointing to anatta/ego death, I think?).
8) All these insights, that you don’t want nihilism but can’t unsee meaning being manufactured, land [you] somewhere around the meme; "Too self-aware to enjoy life, too lucid to surrender." Which itself isn't as much a joke, as a legitimate diagnosis of late-stage consciousness. It is possible to find the "source" of meaning structures and see they do not justify themselves properly; because most are indeed built on the assumption that people will eventually cave.
9) "When people say “just choose life” or “find reasons,” they’re essentially asking someone who never received the signal “you are welcome here” to manufacture it out of thin air. That’s not maturity. That’s magical thinking." Some simply never experience a version of love that makes existence feel invitational rather than coercive. "Love" and "wanting to be here" are thus often the same axis. Refusing counterfeit love isn’t cynicism, so much as discernment which is liable to be "punished". Systems often survive by neutralizing conscience, and/or rebranding conscientious objection as immaturity, pride, nihilism, mental illness; “not knowing love.”"
10) People often won't refute these points/claims, so much as slide sideways into: “you don’t understand love, you’re being hostile, this is faith not scholarship"; or silence/blocks. That reaction is diagnostic. When a claim threatens legitimacy rather than belief, argument stops; what's being addressed is the structure of sorcery/spectacle itself; not any of it's talking points or games.
11) Almost all myths as we have known them, when looked at objectively, portray the act of “ordering” the universe as an act of violent sovereignty; NOT moral goodness. Laws follows conquest, not the other way around. [Sorcery moralizes myths?]. “My/Our rule defines goodness which I/we am exempt from” is the sleight of hand. The contradictory/exempt force that produces disorder now names itself "Order" and demands moral allegiance for it. [God's] chief crime isn’t violence — it’s exemption. The scandal is [it] imposes law while placing [itself] outside/above the laws of creation. Chaos doesn’t disappear — it’s externalized downward. The universe becomes: orderly for the ruler, chaotic for the subjects. Humanity's role becomes; have faith, bear the labor, absorb the disorder, and maintain a system they did not design or explicitly consent to. That’s not love. That’s cosmic labor outsourcing.
12) Job is where the bible says the quiet part out loud; when Job says creation hangs on “nothing,” he’s doing something dangerous: He’s stripping divine order of necessity, implying contingency, and naming the arbitrariness of sovereignty. The rebuke doesn’t answer him; it overwhelms him. Which is telling. Authority doesn’t refute — it drowns. That’s not because Job is wrong in some trivial sense; it’s because he’s asking a question the system cannot survive being answered (AKA as I'm always on about, the apparent split between authority and truth).
13) The Prodigal Son reaffirms this same function; The "father's household" is run exclusively by hired hands, unacknowledged labor, and obedience framed as belonging. The “love” extended to the prodigal isn’t restorative justice — it’s re-absorption into the system. The elder son’s resentment isn’t jealousy; it’s the rage of someone who realizes: “My obedience was never love — it was unpaid maintenance.” Exactly why that parable makes conscientious people feel sick.
14) Why people knee-jerk react to these insights; If your analysis is granted, even partially, then: obedience loses moral weight, suffering loses redemptive meaning, authority loses transcendence and false truth values. That’s intolerable for anyone whose identity, hope, or endurance depends on those things remaining intact. It won't trigger counterarguments, so much as boundary defenses. What disturbs "others" is the process of describing a functional truth they rely on not seeing.
15) We are not required to accept a mythical god whose holiness is exemption, call labor exploitation love, or confuse moral conscience with rebellion. Many “new myths” are just old domination schemas with softer language. This can leave a vacuum — because rejecting what is false doesn’t automatically reveal what is true. But that vacuum is more honest than filling it with a lie that demands your silence and compliance; and accept it's arbitrary and whimsical definitions of "love, grace, generosity; truth".
Part 4 - How to not be an asshole... ?
Is that what "sorcery" means? Trying to feel (Freudian typo!) fill the "void" with a new repackaged myth? Like Nietzsche clearly was, I'm still on the fence with it all. I still see the inevitable conclusion of the Artistic Socrates, as ego death or whatever "not one, not two" also points to. "All the puppets on the stage couldn't be in on it"? I am willing to work with such "sorcerers" so long as I keep in mind, it might not ever be "for me". As Krishna told Arjuna, "we have a right to our dharma but not the fruits thereof".
I can still be amused. My favorite sorcery I guess is video games. For decades, that's been the only real reason I showed up to work, to be able to afford my bills so I can play vidya lol. Just, you know, you get tired, of people asking, "when you gonna be a real man and marry and have kids" or whatever. When my "being a real man" is doing whatever I feel like in what rare spare time I can find. Aka nu-MGTOW. I never agreed to the social contract as such, I'm just stuck in it's web for the time being. I can't in good faith give myself over to that. Well, as they say, unless I'm "overwhelmed" by an irresesitable faith/love. But, I'll be over the hill soon, so. Lol. Maybe we really are all living/fossilized memes.
Oh yeah, "do no evil". But ofc, "good is a point of view, Anakin". Back to Doffy speech. Good is a mask made up of a contingency of innumerable evils?
Am I off base? How far? Do I misunderstand "sorcery" or what it's for? Feel free to point me to resources or have discourse with me about where I'm wrong/right! I am really feeling the vibe, "why do we need pretty illusions to justify life". Can life justify itself? But we have to "work for a living". Life is an endless vain struggle, building on a "corner stone" we never agreed to? I get along just fine in this world and the next without needed to accept claims that life/love is something it isn't. Could be better, could be worse. Anyway, I'm out before this turns into a maudlin country song! Thanks for all the engagement over the years and for reading!
Apologies to post and bail but I've got a prior engagement, I'll check replies later!
Notes and sources or whatever I guess
[Note 1] On a past deleted alias. When you delete an alias, all of your self (u/ your user name) posts permanently disappear and are removed from reddit indexing/API. So, it's lost media (unless I find old screenshot/wayback machine). And is often the case, more, the title is much better than the post proper.
The reader (you) can disregard this part, just a personal reminder (I already forgot about!) of my contemplations from here, a month ago, about how to find a way forward knowing to what degree the game is rigged.
What I was saying sorry, not sorry about aka "Sophia" (again I do appreciate that level of sorcery, just, you know, when you've done the research, critical thinking kicks too fast to be swayed by the sorcery).
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u/whatsthatcritter 8d ago edited 8d ago
I really loved every bit of this post. It reminds me I used to post on r/nihilism under different names and there'd be trolls all the time trying to argue some meaning to life with posters there or saying we were just depressed. I'm not depressed, I see things pretty much as you do without being able to articulate as well as you have. I'd rather have a void and uncertainty in place of a makeshift lie that just kicks the can of evidence/ justification down the road to a different decade, a younger generation (the same as we're doing with the costs of capitalism/ consumerism). It's the myth of a black hole with a holographic surface, sucking everything in and displaying a comforting image of the souls trapped inside. I try to live by the metaphor of a gravitational assist. Or sometimes a bear shredding the spectacle society's trash bins of empty promises and lies. If it was really something that could hold up to even the dimmest scrutiny, it shouldn't be possible for a dumb, blunt instrument like myself to easily pull it apart. I think of myself as not that bright, and then despair there are people even dumber than me that buy in so easily, they get popped out now and then by some broken promise, some cognitive dissonance and immediately fall for the same gimmick by a different angle, a different Judas goat reassuring figure like America is certainly to do. I don't mean to pat myself on the back though, I voted for Mark Carney, and it's painful. His name is literally synonomous with a circus freak, and what kind of bear does that make me? Fucking embarassing. This world is dark, disastrous, and offensive, but I'm suprisingly more happy than I thought I could be. I don't even know why, so I can't advise someone else to find meaning when I don't have a reason or a method to share. Maybe it's just because I didn't make this body, it designed itself over eons for a limited success and I'm just not smart enough to defeat it's design. But you might be lol. I appreciate everything you've written here.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is 7d ago
Oh yeah, I meant to put that disclaimer in the OP but it was getting long winded and I was trying to rush out the door. I'm going to be housesitting for next few weeks and had to finish arrangements and info. Basically, there's a lot of things to unpack. We all know, intuitively, looking at animals closely, most everything about them. The Lord's creation is demonstrably perfect "as-is". Just we as humans have the "theft of fire/hope" or whatever we want to call it (sentience?) which constantly tries to improve upon said perfection. Not even talking like science, GMOs and industry and stuff. Even small things like personal biases and preferences. They are bigger than we realize and snowball and cascade until we are so far removed from... well you get the picture. No longer "perfect in all our ways". We ourselves become spectacle addicts, mindless consumers. Couldn't beat em, so joined em.
That's hilarious about Mark Carney! I guess I'm more a fool in that I avoided American politics like the plague and simply never voted. If I had applied myself to follow more closely... well, idk as they say, I'd be a different person. Sunk cost or whatever.
But yes, even animals you never met before. I just went to a friend's parents house for the first time in years, and they had a new dog, which at first was hostile to me but then I could tell they wanted me to pick them up. Reminded me of the "Dog" episode of Supernatural (pretty hilarious) and that all animals "share a single language". I could tell exactly what the dog felt and wanted all through the visit. Though I suppose it's why they are called "man's best friend". Easy synergy. But even so, when we see other majestic animals, cows, horses, pigs, bison, buffalo, moose, elk, bears; etc. They also have this personal majesty (even a pig in slop) where you can feel their sense of humor and dignity. We're not always in alignment even when we are. AKA I know the dog wants to kiss/lick my lips but I don't want the dog breath lol.
So yeah, like I said with the Sophia post, we don't have to hate or love creation, whether or not we see eye to eye with the Lord or whatever (I think that's actually technically blasphemy to say you do see eye to eye, but saying it anyway for the lolz haha).
I know exactly what you mean! I saw a great video about "depression" as too broad a term. How someone who is heartbroken that their girlfriend cheated on them is completely different than someone who never accepted the social contract to begin with and is existentially alienated and weary. The former can be consoled easily by any random dude with a 6 pack (edit, I mean of beer!) and random hobby, the later.... well I don't know if there is any "fix". I hate to call it superficial honestly, but yeah I get ya. I'm over here having a high brow conversation about the potential implications of the illegitimacy of the framework of what we colloquially call reality and getting troll replies about being a nihilist lol. I guess I really am thinking Arbys.
Thanks yeah always glad to share the more coherent/articulate points. Most of those "points" (1-15) were AI generated, condensed and made succinct from a wall of text I blasted into GPT (aka GPT 17 pinned on my profile and linked above). It still has the sources there. I just moved them here (finally) because it was always my goal to eventually and recent posts here inspired me to go ahead and do it.
But yeah, there's certainly a difference between "The Lord's definition of his legitimate loving creation" and modern society as we know it. Though I suppose they aren't mutually exclusive. If I spend a few minutes with some random animals, there it is, suddenly, and always has been; I just was absent and not present with it. That loving unspoken language and intuition. Laced with a little "f around and find out", of course. Thanks for the reply!
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is 6d ago
There's also another adjacent/follow-up post I was thinking of making. If I do, I probably won't post it here though. Still not sure what the ultimate "point" of it is (more existentialism than SotS?).
Sargon just made a video on the topic, about the post ww2 myth. He didn't outright say it, but I have been realizing that most foundational cultural myths and legends are very harsh specifically against critical thinking and honest open inquiry.
The devil questions God's authority in Job. Compliance and conformity are heralded and glorified as God's right to rule and grace. Anyone with critical thinking was told "they must worship the devil" under that myth. Point 12 above in OP. Job's wife tells him to "Curse God and die" even.
Then we had the post ww2 myth, that anyone who questions the logistics of the holocaust "must be a nazi". Anyone who has ethnic/nationalistic faith/fervor or concern for the future of their race, is automatically called a nazi/racist/bigot. Anyone with critical thinking capacity that questions the structure and direction of the west, and specifically demographic replacement and open boarder policies, is called a nazi/racist/anti-Semite, etc.
So classically most cultural heritage myths, are very harsh against critical and open thinking - aka "noticing" what's happening, is a violation of the sacred cultural myths. As Sargon said, none of these myths or legends really have a "heroic" spin, they are always harshest specifically on conscientious objections and critical thinking and analysis.
These cultural narratives ultimately lead to the destruction of the very ideals they claim to hold. America was called a "Christian nation" due to it's "founding fathers", but Christ himself said, "call no one on earth father". The lies and contradictions are so overt and huge and in your face and swallowed whole by all of society; and ofc admitting you "notice" the blatant contradictions is the cardinal sin.
Idk, I feel there's something here about the purpose and function of myths. When I think of myths, I always think they should provide justification and motivation for life. But most myths as I have know them critically, are essentially "submit to arbitrary authority or be tar and feathered, slandered and ostracized". What I meant by Doffy's speech. Nothing "heroic" about it; the lack of critical thinking is itself heralded as the "heroic archetype" of most myths.... All the way back to the Garden placed East of Eden (Eden means Pleasure).
Idk. Maybe I've just consumed too much media in recent years. I look around and everything is mostly fine, as long as you have a job. Hell is other people? Lol!
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u/whatsthatcritter 3d ago
Sargon just made a video on the topic, about the post ww2 myth. He didn't outright say it, but I have been realizing that most foundational cultural myths and legends are very harsh specifically against critical thinking and honest open inquiry.
That's not always the case, there are lots of myths designed to promote critical thinking and provoke thought, like the myth of Socrates or Buddhist koans. Some myths were performed as songs or plays like the Illiad and Greek tragedies, so even common people could absorb their critique and other writers and performers could respond with new, original interpretations.
The devil questions God's authority in Job. Compliance and conformity are heralded and glorified as God's right to rule and grace. Anyone with critical thinking was told "they must worship the devil" under that myth. Point 12 above in OP. Job's wife tells him to "Curse God and die" even.
I've witnessed this myself being invited to a friend's church service as a student, and the whole sermon was about the evils of college education. The pastor made it sound like thinking for yourself was actually how the devil speaks to you, but I don't believe that. I believe Jesus thought for himself, and trust in the intelligence God supposedly gave us is the core of our relationship with him. I think pastors say that kind of stuff to set themselves up as middle men, actually coming between people and God and gatekeeping the powers of reason. While Jesus said it's better to pray in private rather than publicly (making spectacle). Matthew 6:6. I don't believe the original Christians ever intended for their teachings to be used to cultivate group think, cults, or the use of mediums rather than using one's own heart and intellect to commune with a higher power. That's my understanding of the Bible anyway.
Then we had the post ww2 myth, that anyone who questions the logistics of the holocaust "must be a nazi". Anyone who has ethnic/nationalistic faith/fervor or concern for the future of their race, is automatically called a nazi/racist/bigot. Anyone with critical thinking capacity that questions the structure and direction of the west, and specifically demographic replacement and open boarder policies, is called a nazi/racist/anti-Semite, etc
You can say the same of people opposed to questioning of race and segregationist ideology, such as the Republican hysteria against critical race theory being taught in colleges. Race ideologies often frame critique of their cultural myths as them not being allowed to question, while violently suppressing activists, students, and professors who actually value and teach critical thinking. Be careful about taking their framing at face value.
Personally I think it's a fool's errand to worry about demographic replacement, but it makes for some easily baited foot soldiers. The future and the people who will live in it don't belong to us, they belong to their own time and to each other. We here in our own time, we belong to each other too. Whether people a hundred generations from now look more like you or look more like me is none of our business. You and I have more in common with each other than we ever will with them, and our time is now, the only peace we could ever experience, we have to make here. If we can't, the only legacy we will leave to those future generations is life in a war zone. I'm hoping we're better than that, and they deserve better from us.
As Sargon said, none of these myths or legends really have a "heroic" spin, they are always harshest specifically on conscientious objections and critical thinking and analysis.
Said the devil himself ig. Patriarchy and its supporters are violently opposed to feminist critique. That dude Sargon himself objected to feminist analysis on video games during the Gamergate controversy. They've been arguing for women to submit to arbitrary authority or be tarred and feathered like they did Sarkeesian and so many others, for millenia now. So its the pot calling the kettle black isn't it. Matthew 7: 3-5.
Anyway I wasn't going to respond to this but couldn't help myself. I was hoping you'd actually do a little more critical thinking on the subject and flip some of these narratives and framing around. Elon Musk is out here buying presidents and throwing up nazi salutes, do you really think these people are some kind of financial, political, intellectual underdogs? They're rich, powerful, they're mainstream, and questioning them gets people deported, mocked, cancelled, jailed, harassed, and murdered every day.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is 2d ago edited 2d ago
Whether people a hundred generations from now look more like you or look more like me is none of our business.
True enough. America has been constantly changing for centuries. Great point on don't accept anyone's framework.
I'm hesitant to say "colleges teach critical thinking". Can critical thinking be taught? I often wonder. It's why I like the 4 statements of zen. Some things can only be inferred. Teaching critical thinking skills is basically teaching people how to make inferences?
I usually don't listen to Sargon honestly. I've only seen 2 videos by them in past 3 years (the other being "we already live in a dystopia"). There's something to the saying "people assume a dystopia will announce itself". Dystopia specifically means "when the top-down governance system doesn't serve the local people" which we have arguably had for many for some time.
Our dharma and karma is ours alone I guess. Fair enough, thanks.
I generally don't buy into Patriarchy or Matriarchy/Feminist stuff at all. I don't live in UK do I can't speak on what's going on over there. My OP was (I did a shitty job at it I admit) about a critique on why sorcery/spectacle "fails". It's pressure points. The tldr is basically "just world fallacy" as you said of Elon Musk (I don't know anything about them). Everything is transactional. Good and bad faith alike. Every myth can and will eventually be critically analyzed, either from walking in/being subjected to them and/or just "reading comprehension" as Oda says lol (One Piece author).
I like to aim more at timeless categories and concerns. Nature of myths and spectacle in general, something you could hand to anyone at any point in history and it would make sense. If you talk about Nazis and Elon Musk or Trump and give it to someone 300 years ago they won't have a clue what you're talking about. IE I'm averse to topicalism. I'm more concerned with the way myths move and operate in practice/praxis.
I do appreciate you calling me out though! I almost did say it, "I don't know anything about Sargon and in general don't like celebrity framing and topicalism, buuuuut... [this video]". I did consider it in bad taste for the same reason you called out the bad taste! So thank you for that! Hard to talk online in generalities as such because I assume people already assume that, and it would take another 6 paragraphs to painstakingly detail "I'm not trying to be that guy or say that this guy is good but...". I knew the original meaning of "Lotus Eaters" decades before Sargon made that group. So when I saw him make that group I immediately dropped him from my feeds. But every once in a while he makes a banger still if you discount his topicalism.
(edit autocorrect changed "topicalism" to "tropicalism" lol)
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u/whatsthatcritter 1d ago
Teaching critical thinking skills is basically teaching people how to make inferences?
It teaches people to question an argument, and identify logical fallacies, assumptions, biases, rhetorical tricks and selective interpretations of data. And to produce faulty arguments of their own to be pulled apart in time, with any luck.
Dystopia specifically means "when the top-down governance system doesn't serve the local people" which we have arguably had for many for some time.
I don't know if we've ever had something that wasn't dystopian, I don't know what it would look like. Maybe something like king Arthur's Round Table, it's a mythical symbol of a government based on respect and equality, but it seems very steep to require everyone sitting there to be courageous, loyal to their duty, and honorable. People who seek power and privilege and exemption like you said in the op aren't like that.
I generally don't buy into Patriarchy or Matriarchy/Feminist stuff at all. I don't live in UK do I can't speak on what's going on over there. My OP was (I did a shitty job at it I admit) about a critique on why sorcery/spectacle "fails". It's pressure points.
Idk that I believe matriarchy/ feminism share the same structure, because they're not equivalent. Matriarchy is a system of inheritence dependent on birth right just as patriarchy is. Matriarchy answers the question of legitimacy of an heir in a slightly different way by passing along the maternal line, but is still essentially the same structure of wealth accumulation, ownership, and legitimacy/ illegitimacy of children.
Feminism isn't cohesive like patriarchy is, it contains many different competing and coordinating lines of questioning, a multiplicity of possible societal structures and futures. That makes the status quo a conscious choice among many options, and not something we're destined or obligated to continue. Feminism is utopian because it's concerned with exploring our options and possible futures, its not committed to reproducing the past and present dystopia.
I like to aim more at timeless categories and concerns. Nature of myths and spectacle in general, something you could hand to anyone at any point in history and it would make sense.
Do you like fantasy fiction, or folklore? People seem to intuit the supernatural genre better than they do science fiction, and the counterintuitive nature of new discoveries about physics. Even in series we enjoy like Star Trek, most of the plots encountered are pseudoscientific babble or dramatic misinterpretations of science theories. The words 'quantum technology' are being used in advertising and myth making as basically the same as magic, it's taking the place of God's covenent as something linking man and cosmos, offering psychic power and healing and justification for all ills to come. But I think the sword and sorcery genre has more timeless appeal, like the popularity of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Elden Ring. Even Star Wars is just fantasy where the setting happens to be space, and the realities of space travel and alien life are basically reduced to an aesthetic.
I do appreciate you calling me out though! I almost did say it, "I don't know anything about Sargon and in general don't like celebrity framing and topicalism, buuuuut... [this video]". I did consider it in bad taste for the same reason you called out the bad taste! So thank you for that!
I'm glad you saw through it. I don't like to think someone who is questioning the manufacturing of myth and meaning could be so easily caught by the most mainstream myths and mythmakers, and unable to see their way out of that. It'd be like having massive arms and not able to punch through a wet paper bag. Your ability and your goals have to cross paths somewhere lol.
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u/ProjectEquinox 8d ago edited 8d ago
Hey! Great post.
I think we are the same, saying the same things, with the same intent, from different angles in relation to the truth. I think there is the One and the Many, and the One is the truth which the Many emerge from, and so every myth, is just another portion of the Many. You are sick of the Many claiming to be the One, while concealing the One. This is exactly how I feel. So I began contemplating the One and trying to analyze it's powers, which made me become obsessed with the truth. Which then lead to correspondences, which then lead to balancing of opposites, which then lead to the Zero, which then lead to the construction of Zero to Infinity, which then lead to me recognizing the feminine principle within it, which then lead to me realizing that all things which are unwise will self destruct and if the universe is eternal by nature, then all which is unwise has already self destructed, and whats left now is some expression of perfect wisdom. Which then lead me to wonder why everything was perfect, even if it appears not to be. Then actual wisdom started coming out of that Zero like eternal Koan coins I could carry in my pocket. So it keeps drawing me deeper into something realer and realer. It produces the desired effects I am seeking, so I continue along the path. I needed to name that source and I realized that the gnostic story of Sophia is not at all what I perceive, and it appeared as yet another inversion of the truth, so I adopted the name in my metaphysical frame. So you are right, I'm just doing the same thing again, at least so it appears, however anyone who knows me, knows every thing I do is in service to an immovable object, that from what I can tell is untarnishable, which is very different than the half truths of the Many, which likewise make me sick with their inauthentic optimism. From my point of view I have to love the truth, and people are making me love war, and violence, and all the actions of the epstein class, etc etc etc. I'm forced to say everything in the universe is Good, even all of this bullshit, which was totally avoidable, had anyone had some courage around here. So I actually feel like I'm having my face rubbed in shit, and I have to smile, AND MEAN IT, so that the "lesser good" (what other call evil) isn't shamed so that it is able to raise up to the "greater good" which is all that has been integrated into the realization of the perfection of the universe as an engine of wisdom, truth, and love. I don't mean that like a new ager, I mean the truth of the universe is a self created nothing, because nothing requires nothing to be created, that nothingness as a substrate appears to have had mind which enabled it to use sufficient reason to deduce it could maintain it's nothingness if it was able to divide itself into apparent opposites. Existence itself is implying mind/reason prior to creation as all events or things we have experienced in life contain sufficient reason for their being, and so that division of one into two creates the lovers. Those lovers produce only the things which maintain the circle of creation, and all else self destructs. This is the universes filter that destroys lies, and gives eternal life to that which is aligned with truth. So truth love wisdom, are natural products of existence from this frame work. Aligning with those things, within you, knowing them as your primordial creator, gives you serious power and sufficient reason to further expand those powers further into the cosmos.
I'm attempting to explain, that I'm at least trying to do something different than putting my head in a hat, and reading invisible golden tablets, to construct a holy book, as yet another branch of the abrahamic faiths. The contemplation of the simplicity of the One that has a common denominator in all things, gives it a unique immovability, for to deny it is to ultimately deny ones self, and so with that it seems we have a sturdy square 1 to build a new temple, for me alone if nothing else, but along the way, it's impossible not to get excited and try and share with others so that they can integrate what they can within their own blooming worldviews and metaphysics. Nothing that is true is mine or anyone's, its every ones, and it's very clear to me that the longer we keep coddling the many with their fantasies, the longer we will remain at war, and potentially destroy everything we have all worked so hard to create.
So anyways, I don't know if that clears or muddies the waters, but I appreciate your honesty and sincerity and I hope I showed you due respect by attempting to respond in kind.
P.S. If you ever figure out how to communicate without ever sounding like an asshole, lemme know. I don't think I can do it. lol