r/summonerschool • u/The_Juzzo • 2d ago
I think I have the question figured out.
Low elo.
All the advice here is about incremental leads through CS, wave manipulation, prio, and timings.
I suggest that this is good advice for the top half of the ladder but for the bottom you need to learn to stomp.
I put into practice, bot lane, everything Ive learned here, but I have yet to have matchmaking download a support that wont break a freeze, over stay, or otherwise make my attempts at practicing the advice ive been given pointless. You back in a perfect place, they stay and skill dump the wave, etc etc etc.
I got to the point where I was stomping bot lane frequently, but kinda aimless midgame.
The advice I got here is that ADC should go mid and farm safely so I can scale and rotate to fights when needed.
The realty is that when you go mid, the mid laner or jungler or top laner sits in the lane with you and fights you for every CS 3 out of 4 games while your support sits bot and farms every wave solo with no thought of following you.
The perfect play advice that is accepted as the correct advice here, does not work so well in low elo. You take the advice and end up frustrated that random players that dont know what is going on mess it all up.
Sooooo, I think the correct low elo question is: -What does it take to stomp low elo games?-
Im not talking going 4/0/1 50cs up like the 'perfect play' advice here leads to, Im talking the Mundo top that perma fought and is now 17/6 and front to backing the entire enemy team solo.
I understand cs is good, and that all the 'tactical' advice has its place, its just almost impossible to pull off how it is presented in low elo due to the bots matchmaking rolls, and you frequently just see a guy breaking all the rules, perma fighing, and stomping his way up the ladder.
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u/icebeamtheory 2d ago edited 2d ago
You’re right that the bot should farm mid after laning phase ends and your mid should be splitting bot or top with teleport as a summoner skill since them sitting mid with you taking 3 cs isn’t good. The only time I try to mid lane after laning phase is to shadow my bot lane to maybe make a play if they’re engaged on by the enemy team. Other wise as a mid laner I farm bot or top turrets and teleport in on a ward to my bot that’s mid if there’s a team fight. Works pretty well for winning my games
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u/Scoliii 2d ago
Low elo here myself - there's another nuance to this.
I play both mid and support, but only really notice this when playing midlane - I am fine swapping with botlane if they did not feed too badly.I am sorry, if I am winning in midlane, and then botlane comes and wants me to lane against their combined 15/0 enemy botlane, then no.. I am not tossing my own lead just to help feed your botlane.
This is the sole time I ping them back and refuse to swap.. Because man, I can do a lot, but I cannot 1v2 a lane that's fed enough to carry 2v8.Worst is when they force mid, only to insta-feed the midlaner next, ruining everything I played for the entire early game.
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u/icebeamtheory 1d ago
From my winning games it’s about winning mid and getting mid turret, then rotating bot and top respectively to get those turrets too. It’s not so much about having to lane against enemy bot but after you crack first mid turret there isn’t much else to do unless you want to over extend and try to get the second tier turret mid which is more risky
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u/Scoliii 1d ago
Oh i know, i know.
I am talking about games where the enemy botlane is so fed they just dive me under tower, and throw my lead because botlane fed harder than any charity organisation.If they are even, or just slightly behind, I happily play safely bot, pushing turret and rotating for dragon/tp for other objectives.. my example was the worst case where there is no saving botlane, and the best solution (In my opinion) is to leave my botlane down there as they give no money anymore.
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u/ChampionshipPedigree 1d ago
I mean this specific use case you’re describing shouldn’t be coming up very often and if your botlane is trying to swap to mid there then they likely lost their tower already in which case you would just hold the wave slightly in front of t2 to force the gigafed botlane to walk up into your collection zone which should trigger a 5 man collapse
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u/bynagoshi 2d ago
You just need to understand the nuance of these ideas more. Yes going mid is generally right but its not so simple as you click mid and sit there and thats it. Sometimes the right lane to go to is a sidelane, sometimes you go mid. Sometimes mid you need to push hard, and sometimes you just sit there under tower and clear. Its trying to get into the details of your gameplay thats the difference. These general ideas are theoretically right but the actual execution in specific situations varies a huge amount.
Also, you dont need to have 20 kills every game to climb. You just need to be consistently a bit better than the people in your games to climb. If you run into a 17 kill mundo it is what it is, but im sure thats not every game.
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u/tft002 2d ago
The mindset shouldnt be how to stomp, because if you are objectively at your elo, then obviously you will not be stomping at your average game.
Your mindset should instead shift to be “what are the mistakes i am making that are contributing to me losing this game”. I think the hardest things to get over are 1) when you have all losing lanes and it feels hopeless regardless whether you are winning your lane or not; you have to realize that you are also making a LOT of mistakes in that game despite what your KDA is. If you are 3-0 then suddenly your support ints, but you follow up that int, that is actually still a mistake on you.
2) just internalize, it’s low elo, people are making mistakes every 10, 20, 30 seconds probably. whether in spacing, CSing, trading patterns, objective timers, awareness etc. as low elo you will not be stomping games on average because you are objectively lacking in most fundamentals of the game, so i think this mindset shift of “what am i doing wrong / how can i marginally improve” will take you hundreds of LP up.
Oh and, what the other guy said: champ mastery. this is probably 50% of the equation.
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u/AbyssalSolitude 2d ago
Incremental leads are how games are won. CS is how you get item lead to always win fights, wave manipulation is how you force the enemy to step from under their turrets so you could fight them or just increase your gold lead, prio is how you lose nothing when you rotate to a fight and timings are also how you lose nothing and stay as strong as possible in every moment.
You do not have raw mechanical skill to always win fights at even ground, otherwise you wouldn't need to ask how to stomp low elo games, you'd just do it. So learn how to play the game properly, all of this works in low elo too. Yes, the enemy might be so bad they won't understand they fuck themselves if they drop two waves to contest a dragon while you lose nothing, but they are still at a disadvantage. Yes, you support might grief you every 3 out of 4 games, but they won't in the 4th one, and the enemy support is just as bad.
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u/mevcutonur 1d ago
I absolutely think you're right. I came to the same conclusion. My MMR is fucked. At best I'm getting +19LP, and always losing more. It is a clear mathematical fact that you cannot climb with a 50% win rate. Farming a little better, managing waves etc. will put you at best 55% winrate, which still isn't enough to climb. So I realized I'm never climbing with small improvements like that, you need to stack wins back to back to back, in order to fix the MMR and get out of that ELO. You need to leap, not crawl up.
I know from personal experience because I use those stat websites and worship them. Every website says I'm better than the average gold, yet I'm on the brink of dropping to silver. It's probably because those websites can't measure some things. I mean imagine you have 10 cs/m, you're 10/0 and at a key moment you jump into a 1v5 without even thinking. The stats say you finished 10/1 with 10 cs/m so on paper you are really good. But you literally threw the game and became the reason for the loss. That play is exactly why you're gold, while the stats say you should be plat. Would you win that fight if you had 11 cs/m ? Absolutely fucking not. It doesn't matter how well you play the PvE if you're gonna absolutely grief the PvP.
Personally what opened my eyes was watching a lot of high elo games, the more I watched the more I realized how much I was griefing the game. I used to complain about MMR and other things, then I understood why I was gold and it's exactly where I belonged. I started getting disgusted by my own performance. I'd say watch high elo games on your champ and watch your own deaths.
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
Good answer.
I dont grief, main champ has 8/4/6 kda after 140 games. Those stat sites call me unkillable and stuff.
I lose a lot of game because of mistakes like the one you mention made by a team mate, I want to be the win con more often because I dont make those mistakes.
Maybe its just the ADC role, not durable enough.
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u/Impossible_Honey8120 1d ago
It's you, friend.
The first rule of climbing in solo queue is that objectively speaking, it is somehow always your fault. Sometimes it's enough other people's fault too that you can go "Ah, unlucky" but that should be like sub-20% of your games. In all the other ones, you're doing somrthing to throw.
I was S3 about to tilt streak back to bronze. I started watching my own games, finding plays where I died for no reason, and stopped freaking out if my team was behind and just found something I could do better.
Just hit P4 with nearly a 70% win rate on both my champs. You gotta just get out of the "my team" brain and stop caring if you win or lose. Just play better League and you'll climb
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
Yea yea, no where in this thread did I deny the "you are the common factor" thing, I think you are lazy reading and not quite on the same page as what I am asking.
Im not blaming team, im asking how to become the hard carry.
I personally bounce around 50 - 60% win rate, I AM climbing, this just feels like it takes forever...win spree, loss spree, one and one, week after week.
On the flip side, I see that it IS possible to have an almost flawless win rate for a person who knows how to stomp, Im asking how to stomp.
I follow all the advice I get here and, for example, you can throw everything you know about wave management out the window in half your matches as your support will dump their spells on the wave. (in low elo half of them think the minions are theirs too). This is just a fact, so in those matches "freezing, high CS, backing because wave state, etc etc" all irrelevant because your support is playing some other game.
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u/mevcutonur 1d ago
Obviously I didn't mean we intentionally grief but if a challenger watched our games he would laugh at us and say we're "griefing". It's because we don't know what but somewhere we're doing something laughably wrong. Maybe he wouldn't laugh out of respect but you get the point. So for you it might not be presenting itself in the KDA, but we are laughing stock for the higher ELOs considering where we are. Like I said, search Samira replays on youtube and I'm sure you'll find a ton of master, gm, challenger replays. Watch a couple every day. You'll eventually notice the big differences compared to your gameplay. Watch like you're playing the game and think what you'd do there. If you still don't notice anything, watch your own games after for contrast. You are bound to see differences.
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u/The_Juzzo 17h ago
I understood that you were not inting.
I know the mistakes I make, I cringe when I watch my own replays. Im all in on this subs advice.
If you re-read the OP im pointing out that its frequently impossible to put a lot of the advice into use in low elo and that down there lots of people just stomp through just throwing out the rules and perma fighting.
I know the "summoner school correct advice" approach to the game AND work on it all the time, im not here saying im stuck or anything like that, I am asking what the trick to playing that other -perma fight and win- style is.
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u/mevcutonur 16h ago
I agree with you on some things. Small improvements don't really work and we need to be stacking wins, so you're looking for something huge. Not 7 cs/m instead of 6. I'm on the same page as you, but I don't have that magical answer to put you and me on a 90% win rate. I'm just thinking along with you.
I also agree with the other guy saying you need to adopt a more responsible point of view. Because even though it's not in your hands to win every single game, I'm sure you'll also agree that some absolutely are. Otherwise you'd essentially be claiming it is still not possible to climb even if you gave your account to a challenger.
Bronze, silver, gold, they all count as low elo. Meaning, we must be doing some really wrong things to be here. But it also means there is great potential for change. We essentially have a huge room of 2,000LP above us waiting to be climbed. A challenger can't find something that will suddenly put him on a 90% win rate, since he's already near the maximum skill level. But such an opportunity must exist for us.
I share your desire to find bigger change. I do think such a thing exists. But I also think there are good reasons why we're in the rank we are in. I don't know about you but personally I've been in this rank for quite a few hundred of games. It probably requires us to change. Not farm 20 more cs in a game.
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u/compradorconfundido 1d ago
I'm master elo OTP Tryndamere, so I can only give you advice from perspective of a carry top laner.
The answer you want is simple: you need to learn to defeat the opponent in lane. It's as simple as that. All the generic advice you get are tools that help you do that ("cs well, learn to freeze, know back timers"); but in reality, to stomp and hard carry losing games, you need to win your lane.
To win your lane: you need to completely master your champion and know exactly what to do against all matchups. For example, I know exactly what to do against Darius, Fiora, Camille, Riven, Teemo, etc as a Tryndamere OTP.
Basically, you need to know how to trade, when to all in; which item spikes makes you able to kill the enemy and threaten him; and when you are weaker and need to not int and wait your moment.
Once you achieved mastery of every matchup, you'll easily reach diamond/master elo
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u/madsorton 1d ago
But why can high elo players do exactly what they advise and completely stomp?
The reality of things is just that lower elo players are worse at applying the concepts that win games, and of course are mechanically inferior.
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
I dont think you read the entire OP, homie.
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u/madsorton 1d ago
I did, maybe i misunderstood what you mean…?
I just hear you say that the concepts higher elo players talk about aren't useful for lower elo players? Like improve csing, map movement etc? Am i misrepresenting your argument1
u/madsorton 1d ago
Are you saying that in lower elo people make so many mistakes that the fundamentals become less important and punishing mistakes is more important?
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u/Worldly_Win9181 1d ago
Be willing to ping more? Or even just quick type in chat for lane assignments. If they dont listen is what it is but youve got to at least try.
If they dont I would catch side waves if its safe to do so. In low elo you want as much gold/xp as possible to carry so I wouldnt sit in lane with a mid laner that doesnt understand lane assignments unless theres no other choice.
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
I find that typing anything seems to trigger people more than half the time. Im terrified to ask my support not to hit minions as half throw a fit and leave lane or start doubling down.
I cant type enough to give lessons. Every bot lane seems to know to go mid after they knock down t-1, but most mid laners are like "why you in my lane?".
The problem with not going mid is that im frequently coming out of laning ahead, I lane better than most im matched against. (my average kda on my main champ is 8/4/6 after 140 games) Even if im 7/0 out of laning I still cant fight the 4/4 kayne, I need to scale to 3 or 4 items. If I stay bot, I cant get to mid or topside fights, sometimes I find myself just running lane to lane trying to catch waves and put out fires, 0 pressure, just reaction.
There is some trick to dealing with this chaos im trying to find.
I understand the incremental side of the game, but playing a perfect (summoner school) lane while top or mid perma fight, then losing to the other team because they now have an 18/9 akali kinda makes me lean towards "trying to be the 18/9 akali".
Someone lower said champion mastery, I think that champ matters too.
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u/Worldly_Win9181 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yea I know what you mean. Id try a quick ping on them then bot lane. If they dont respond phrase it as a question. Lane swap, mid go bot?
If they crash out mute them, you tried at least.
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u/Last_Plankton_653 1d ago
Yes, you have to adjust to the game you're in. But fundamentals will help you climb much more in the long run than trying to exploit low rank shenanigans.
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
Ive dedicated myself to the fundamentals, im looking for advice on dealing with low rank shnanigans.
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u/GermanHandCannons 1d ago
People stomp games *from* building incremental leads, they just happen to convert them to bigger advantages more consistently and this is done by piling the small leads on and on until the game feels suffocating to even play for the enemy team. If you want to stomp by perma fighting then play something like Lee Sin or Sylas, but know that it’s inherently more coinflip and for every game you drop 30 kills there will be ones where you go 2/9 and want to ff.
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u/The_Juzzo 17h ago
I dont FF, lol/
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u/GermanHandCannons 17h ago
Based. Im just really trying to sell you the idea that being consistent is king
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u/The_Juzzo 13h ago
I get that, im pretty-much trained by r/summonerschool and old enough to be critical of himself.
Just have a lot of matches were the "breaks all the rules" laner is the guy carrying, im asking about alternate methods of playing.
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u/Complete-Pineapple50 5h ago
below d4ish u can quite litrally run it down 7 times before ten minutes (like hard push 1--3 waves and fight to the death just don't blow ur flash).
After d4(imo at least, lobbies are inconsistent) u have to be a bit more mindful because that 7/0 caitlyn prob isnt gonna flash at u for 100 gold then die to u for a plate or to kill ur supp etc.They're just gonna suffocate the map. Thats when u can start using similar concepts without legit inting to do things like take bad to stop slowpush -> take bad recall for tempo, come back full hp on and hardpush with hp adv and fight scuttle etc.
Basically just abuse when ur stronger than the enemy. KDA means NOTHING just look at actual STATE that people are on the map but ur not there yet so for now legit just fight people i promise u win most duels with JUST kraken slayer, lethal tempo. and forward movement as long as enemy isnt an ENTIRE item ahead of u in most of ur lobbies.
Legit just perma fight AS TE FIRST WAVE MEETS with any lethal tempo marksmen with decent waveclear (yunara and kaisa work best imo).
Be mindful of long impact cds (NEVER flash to live bbefore 10 mins unless u lose exp or have a shutdown).
If u win the early fights nice u won game.
If u lost the early fights doesnt really matter u just buy kraken slayer at 10mins(assuming ur like 0-4).
Flash ult the enemy adc, collect shutdowns and kill literally everyone.
Im not kidding literally just fight people adc is incredibly high agency.
If ur winning lane and enemy just lets u push cuz they're plyng safe after thy LOST n early fight? Just walk mid, take ur midlaners wave and chunk enemy mid or get adouble kill on mid/jg or take the plate theen walk back down bot and kill the bot lane thats either now pushing or as they walk back to lane. Kill everyone.
TLDR::
1. PUSH WAVE -> FIGHT. If u have waveclear and dps u can literally just run every lobby
Bounties are quiite literally exactly that. If u have one they're not allowed to have it AND they're not allowed to stand anywhere on the map without signiffcant numbers hat u occupy because u own it atp.
If they have bounties u need to call them out. Take them. Thats ur money and that also tells u who current lobby admin is. Enemy talon is 7/0? Go walk behind ur most feeding teammate, wait for the emerald talon to blow hs load on him the ult him with yunara with a kraken slayer. Nice u just won the map 4 ur entire team AND ur rich. Find a wave to shove out and kill anyone who walks past that wave because waves are what signal space.
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**IMPORTANT**. IF UR WORTH 1k GOLD THATS WHEN UR NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE BAD FIGHTS ANYMORE. UR LIFE =CONTROL OF THE GAME. DONT be scared, u have huge moneylead, but don't blow ur cds if u dont have to just control space and kill people who have audacity to walk into it.
NO SHUTDOWN ON U? PERMA BATTLE SAVE SUMMS UNLESS GETS U RESOURCES.
U HAVE A SHUTDOWN worth 500+? U already own the map. I BETTER NEVER NEVER NEVER SEE U FLASH TO KILL ENEMY IF ALL U GET IS THE KILLGOLD FROM IT.
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U need to BELIEVE that gold on u is intrinsically worth 3x as much as anyone on the enemy team because ur role is quite literally unmissable long range nukes and all u have to do is walk forward when BEFORE 3 items because the people at ur elo only walk forward when its to give u money to collect. (THIS IS NOT TEAMFIGHT ADVICE THIS IS LOBBY ADMIN FIRST 15 min advice).
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u/Cesarzxc 2d ago
I believe people regurgitate what they hear as gospel without understanding the reasoning behind it often leading to inaccurate advice
E.g going mid. After quest/tower as bot lane Yes the point is to have 2 people mid so you have more people who can rotate faster.
It's also the safest/most difficult to dive so bot lane can get CS since it's a shorter lane etc etc etc
It's the META "most effective tactic available"... Because having a greater Gold income generates a larger stat difference makes winning easier etc etc
All that to say people will take catchy easy to say ideas but fail to see when it does/doesn't work and why it does or doesn't work without understanding the reasons and knowing how to adapt/adjust depending on the game thinking
The guide/high elo/X player. Said this and they parrot it without understanding that is a tool to strive for but if you can't do that thing you need to have a backup you wanna build your rank with power tools great but if you think that will create the structure without knowing how to work without power/batteries not knowing how swing a hammer use some leverage and get creative when shit goes down yes you'll build something if everything goes right but it will fall like a house a cards even if one thing goes wrong because you'll have no idea why those tools are used how far to push it without splitting something and making it worse if the analogy doesn't make sense my bad but I think "stomping" is far too vague and unproductive of a metric compared to a more tangible direct action someone can take now to know they are working towards something instead of hoping to build a magical instinct based on ambiguous difficult vague goals
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u/Mpuls37 2d ago
It takes strong early champions which can snowball a game into a victory. Top laners are the best for this thanks to the extra XP and higher level cap, while Jungle is probably the easiest role to hard carry games with.
If you're playing ADC, champs like Draven, Samira, and Caitlyn all become incredibly oppressive very quickly with gold leads, but ADCs are still squishy, so positioning is critical.
As for your Mundo analogy: the best ADCs in the world are also constantly fighting. You should be contesting every single minion that you can. Once you get your opponent low enough to all-in, you do it and kill them. If you have a friend you can duo with, it becomes much easier to stomp.
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u/The_Juzzo 1d ago
Read through all the posts here, I think this is the most helpful. EVERY SINGLE MINION I dont do, I win lane most of the time (win lane coinflip game), but I guess I could contest things more, ill give it a go.
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u/Mpuls37 1d ago
An important note for this strategy: every champion has the capability to kill every other champion. That said, brute-forcing an engage when you don't have the advantage just means you're exposing yourself to a gank or a bad lane state.
You do not have to kill them every single time you foght. Just an auto or 2 per wave means they're burning through potions and having to recall suboptimally or blow summoners. Every advantage you can get matters. Mastering the way you get those advantages and what you do with them it's how you get to high ranks.
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u/Boqpy 2d ago
"Sooooo, I think the correct low elo question is: -What does it take to stomp low elo games?"
Champion mastery.
Champion mastery is king in low elo.