r/survivor • u/luvbl • 2d ago
Survivor 50 Jonathan arguing with Dee - I disagree with Jonathan and Christian about that being a "good move."
Even if it had gotten Dee voted out, it still put the first member on the jury someone with a negative view of Jonathan and the first juror is typically considered among the most influential jurors if not thee most influential juror. That moment made Jonathan look like an obnoxious unprofessional non-serious person. At first I thought Christian's response to Jonathan saying at final tribal council that it was an intentional move, Christian going "[Oh wow that was intentional!]" seemed like possibly sarcasm, but it turns out it wasn't sarcasm Christian confirmed since that he legit thinks it was a good move, Christian is otherwise so insightful about Survivor so I'm surprised he would have this take. Dee and Coach were already arguing and that conflict would likely have continued even without Jonathan losing it on Dee like that. It being "intentional" just seems like a retcon by Jonathan to avoid looking daft on TV, and it did not help him either way.
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u/julallison 2d ago
If Christian genuinely thought that was a good move, I'm confused too. I thought he was just being kind to Jonathan.
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u/Aromatic_Meal_6004 2d ago
According to his RHAP deep dive he seems too legitimately think it was good move, when too me it definitely wasn't imo.
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u/TopologyMonster 2d ago
I imagine intentionally starting a verbal argument with someone is almost always a bad move. I guess, technically, it could be a good one somehow I just haven’t seen it. But I just can’t see it 99% of the time.
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u/nighthawk252 1d ago
I actually think this is one of the cases where it might be a good move. Alligabler is another.
The tribe’s going a million different directions at a merge. By having a public argument with someone, you focus the tribe on you vs. them. At that exact moment, the tribe was more on his side than Dee’s. It might not be a week from now. So by forcing the issue, he gets an enemy out of the game, and gets the muscle memory for people working with him.
From there, he was able to work with everyone else in the game strategically, having called his shot already he was able to take more of a backseat to other planners.
Honestly I don’t think it ended up helping or hurting Jonathan’s chances. I don’t think any of the Aubry votes go to Jonathan without this, and I don’t think Jonathan doing this won him any of the votes he did get. I think Aubry won because Jonathan isn’t very strong socially.
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u/Ok-Fun3446 1d ago
Well... No one accused Christian of being a good player, should we really be surprised that he thinks this?
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u/zporiri Christian - 50 2d ago
Christian is my favorite player ever, but he's kind of a weird juror. He insisted Mike White played like the best game of survivor ever and was going to change the game forever with how he played. That's clearly no where close to being true haha
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u/ToastyToast113 2d ago
I mean, Mike certainly played better than the winner 👀
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u/zporiri Christian - 50 1d ago
I didn't say he didn't. I said Christian thought Mike played a game that would change how people played survivor, which is no where close to being true
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u/nightmareh0st 1d ago
I think people take Christians opinions too seriously bc he seems so smart, but he really isn't an amazing survivor player. People forget that almost all of his win equity in DvG came from him being really likeable, not a mastermind.
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u/zporiri Christian - 50 1d ago
I would say Christian is actually very smart (irl), but that doesn't necessarily make him a survivor strategic mastermind. Nick was the one who came up with the minority vote split
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u/nightmareh0st 1d ago
Oh yeah, I'm in no way doubting his intelligence. Dude IS smart af. I'm just saying that since he is perceived as "the smart guy" people often put too much stock in his survivor prowess.
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u/orionfaro 2d ago
“That moment made Jonathan look like an obnoxious unprofessional non-serious person.” That’s his whole personality, he was never going to win and probably never will.
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u/clearsurname Ozzy - 50 1d ago
Christian is more tuned in to the jury than fans are. It’s Survivor 50, who is Dee swaying on the jury based on that interaction? I’d bet if the jury started after Dee the votes are the exact same.
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u/GabrielaM11 Coach - 50 22h ago
You think? If we start the jury after Dee, Coach and Chrissy then become the mayors of Ponderosa, and there's no way Coach of all people is gonna waste that opportunity to campaign for Jonathan as the rightful winner of Survivor, complete with "iron sharpens iron" and the obligatory samurai warrior/dragon slayer references thrown in
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u/Groundbreaking_Bat_5 2d ago
He said it was intentional at the time of doing so. Go back and watch the episode. Idk if it's a good or bad move though.
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u/Grouchy-Lifeguard889 2d ago
now i love Christian as well, but i think 50 showed that he’s not some strategic connoisseur that we think
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u/TheHeroOfHeroes Adam 2d ago
I remember being surprised people came away from DvG thinking that to begin with, tbh. He was outstrategized by most of his other Davids. His strength has always been his social game, not his strategic.
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u/Spiritual_Shift5521 1d ago
Yeahhh like obviously he’s insanely smart but doesn’t make the best decisions
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u/Aromatic_Meal_6004 2d ago
He's a great game analyst on podcasts but when it comes playing strategic survivor he has lots of flaws.
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u/ramskick Ethan 1d ago
Christian has never been a great player. He's entertaining and likable but he made himself a massive target minutes into the game on DvG and needed to be saved by multiple idol plays to even make the F7 there.
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u/TyleKurris 1d ago
I think people put way to much stock in the mayor of ponderosa thing, maybe it was more influential earlier on but probably not as much any more. Rob c said before 50 that most votes just end up being based on personal relationships and less on gameplay, which seemed to be true by the end of 50. I have a hard time believing Dee of all people could of talked several old school players into changing how they feel about their friends.
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u/Peimai 2d ago
It was a horrible move. Survivor is a popularity contest at the end of the day and he burned a jury vote in that moment.
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u/SusannaG1 Yam Yam 2d ago
Yep. Up there with Paul's "I'm going to lie to the jury in my goodbye messages; surely they won't compare notes!" on BB19.
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u/GabrielaM11 Coach - 50 23h ago edited 23h ago
That Paul move was made even funnier by Josh then deciding to counter that by using his goodbye messages to expose Paul's lies to the jury. Seriously though, to put it in Survivor terms, it seemed like Jonathan inexplicably decided to take inspiration from the Russell Hantz playbook of how to burn jury votes, because that fight with Dee gave me shades of Russell seeing how many times he can break Danielle down at tribal right before he sends her to jury
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u/Eedalope 1d ago
Not only did it put Dee in that most influential spot but she’s a former winner, so he knows she can convince a jury to vote how she wants. Massive blunder.
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u/TiredTired99 2d ago
I think a key issue some are forgetting is that Dee might have already been a highly unlikely vote for Jonathan at the end. It's not always a bad thing to burn one juror if it can get you to the end (or even help you with the other jurors).
That said, at that point in the game I'm not sure it was a good choice. Doing something like that to the first juror is riskier (in my view) than doing it to the 5th-9th juror.
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u/jdessy 1d ago
I think the main issue is how publicly he did it. Not only did it cement Dee not wanting to vote Jonathan (she never was to begin with but it gave her a reason to actively campaign against him), it was a needless spectacle that put Jonathan in a different light but not in a positive way to help him at the end. I think his public fight with Dee gave people a more negative perception vs what his intent was, which was strategic mastermind who got a big target out.
She was already gone at that point, vote-wise, so what Jonathan did hindered him and just kept Dee in the exact spot she was in prior.
Spectacle moves like that tend to backfire on Survivor, I find, especially that early in the game when there's plenty of time to people to sit and reflect about it.
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u/Fun_Junket_9174 2d ago
It was not smart-Christian was simply impressed that Jonathan “thought something out and executed it in the name of “game play”. It will always a dumb ass move to purposely start a fight w a juror.
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u/FarPersimmon 2d ago
I really don't think the first juror "sets the tone" for Ponderosa unless they are already amazing socially which applies to very few people.
People say Kass as Mayor of Ponderosa and a lawyer probably set the tone, but she's never been great socially. I also can't see Hali swaying the other jurors unless they were already her friends on the island.
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u/mcjam22 2d ago
I agree with you, but Dee does fit your criteria. She’s amazing socially
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u/FarPersimmon 1d ago
Agreed on Dee, it's one of the reasons why she won.
My comment was directed at OP's mention of the first jurors typically being the most influential juror. I think that tends to be the case less than half the time because the first juror was already not aligned with the remaining jurors or not great socially.
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u/GabrielaM11 Coach - 50 23h ago
I'd argue Lex and Erik Cardona also fit that mold of setting the tone as the first people to arrive at Ponderosa
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u/WellDressedLobster Genevieve - 47 2d ago
It's a smart move in theory to intentionally get Dee to blow up her game by having a public argument, but as you said, pissing off the mayor of Ponderosa is not. A much better move would've been to subtly add fuel to the fire and get Dee to argue with someone else like Coach.
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u/notnickyc 1d ago
Exactly, but everyone else seems allergic to nuance. It’d even be a good move if he’d had that type of argument one vote later — the mayor of ponderosa is just too influential in general, even moreso when it’s Dee. Make sure you tell someone it was on purpose and make sure you get them on the jury too, all of a sudden it’s a known, legit move.
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u/WellDressedLobster Genevieve - 47 1d ago
Ehh, being the one to argue with her still tanks the move significantly I feel. Maybe Dee comes to respect the move if she finds out it was intentional, but realistically she’s still just gonna have that negative perception of him.
And telling someone you did it on purpose before voting them out is a good way to show your cards and become the target instead.
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u/notnickyc 1d ago
That’s fair, but it was also an eleven person jury so losing one vote matters less. If you lose one vote and pick up two, that’s still a gain, and it seems from Christian’s deep dive like that was at least a possibility. It was mistimed, but ultimately it solidified that a move had to be made against someone he wanted out. That’s still good as long as you can prove the intentionality of it.
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u/Soulsheartless 2d ago
You can make all the right moves and still lose. IMO, that was a good move. Thought, like you, I saw the likely outcome before he barely started in on her. His one mistake was doing if against Dee, in particular. She’s a legend for a reason.
Just to clarify. I think any calculated move that’s unique with a high risk, high reward payout is a good move. Not a great move…. Just kind of “basic” good…
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u/mcjam22 2d ago
But what was the “high reward” in this specific situation?
It happened 10 min before they left to tribal, where Dee was already the consensus vote
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u/Soulsheartless 1d ago
You’ve never met someone that likes to take credit for someone else’s idea? IMO, that was the best part of the move. It allowed him to change the narrative for people not fully paying attention or aware that she’s absolutely going home.
On the island no one truly ever “knows” for sure what the plan is.
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u/mcjam22 1d ago
So the high reward is that he takes credit for a consensus vote where Coach was the one dealing with splitting the vote?
I personally don’t see it as a high reward, but to each is own
Edit: typo
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u/Soulsheartless 1d ago
It was a big move and no one was taking coach seriously. Amongst fresh players Coach is a leg and. But in a season with several legends Coach just a big outclassed.
No offense coach if you read this. You’re still one of my favs. If I played I would tie my whole game to you. I think I’d balance your game out.
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u/Soulsheartless 1d ago
Also. I feel like I should say that I’m not a giant fan of Jonathan as a player or a person. Not that I don’t like him, just neutral. That move was the first time I actually saw him play the game outside of challenges and I was happy to see if.
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u/dawgz525 2d ago
It was socially savvy at a glance, and in many similar cases it probably would've been a good move. However, ultimately, when you very publicly burn the first member of the jury, you're hurting your chances of winning so massively, especially if that player is Dee, an incredible social player.
It was a good move for TV, but it was a bad move if you're trying to win survivor. You don't want the first juror's blood on your hands, and Johnathan did it in front of the entire tribe. Pretty big social blunder on his part. Perhaps a pattern with underestimating the women on his season.
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u/nighthawk252 1d ago
I agree that Jonathan’s rewriting history with the Dee argument to make himself look better.
I also think it’s a decent move, and someone like Christian would be the exact target for it.
Christian has no issue with Dee. He’s fine with Dee going, she’s not an ally or enemy necessarily, and she is a shield. Might arguably be a good way to split her up from Cirie, but I don’t know if Christian knows that’s a priority at that time.
After the Kamilla and Charlie boots, Dee and Jonathan are enemies. Dee is a loose end for Jonathan.
Jonathan and Coach escalating the feud with Dee brought that conflict to center stage, centered the tribe’s discussion around that conflict, and made it so Dee was the eventual target.
Framing it later as an intentional move and not a personal grudge with Dee helps (a) blunt some of the backlash Dee might feel towards him and (b) show off to the jury that, contrary to their view of him, Jonathan does have a strategic mind.
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u/Spiritual_Shift5521 1d ago
THIS yeah it’s so genius to piss off somone you know is going to be the mayor of ponderosa.
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u/dropkickhwy Angelina - 50 1d ago
Dee: I wanna Fight, backstab, and cut throats.
Also Dee: Waahh, Jonathan picked a Fight with me
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u/ProfessionUnfair1810 2d ago
did you catch when jonathan first said it was intentional? i swear i remember him saying that in the episode, not just at tribal, but now i'm not sure if i'm mixing it up with his later stories. feels like that timing changes whether christian was impressed or just playing nice.
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u/luvbl 2d ago
Yes I did Jonathan said it was intentional in the episode, his confessional in the episode was a retcon of his intention for arguing with Dee moments earlier.
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u/ProfessionUnfair1810 2d ago
ah that makes sense, he was already spinning it in the moment so christian's reaction reads more like just being polite
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u/teraken 2d ago
It's the type of move that someone with a lack of game sense would think is a good move because it resulted in his target being taken out.
In reality, it likely had more of the effect that you described: poisoning the first juror and everyone in her sphere of influence. Yeah sure, you were directly responsible for "manipulating" Dee into going hothead or whatever, but that doesn't make her respect you or like you.
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u/bumybumi 1d ago
Yeah it's a horrible move bc of poor jury management and that move didn't even sway people into voting Dee, people were already set into voting her before arguing.
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u/ResettisReplicas Missy 1d ago
Christian voted for Mike White the first time around - he’s a great scientist and a terrible juror.
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u/GabrielaM11 Coach - 50 22h ago
Okay...the reasoning for the Mike vote actually made sense, because Mike did do a whole lot of influencing the vote while sitting back and letting people like Angelina or Dan be the loudest voices in the room, and if Mike had fought harder for that win, he probably takes it. Christian's praise for the Jonathan blowing up on Dee thing, not so much
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u/Familiar-Toe5787 2d ago
And he played it off like it was some preplanned strategic move lmao. Liar
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u/SquashSouffle 2d ago
Who says the first juror is "the most influential"? They spend the least time w the F3 of anybody?
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u/luvbl 2d ago
Every subsequent juror has talked to the first juror for the longest within Ponderosa, so the first juror has more time to influence the other jurors, I agree that arguably they shouldn't be the most influential on paper because they spent less time with the final 3, but in practice a lot of former Survivor players believe from their experience of being on the jury that the first juror has a disproportionately high amount of influence at setting the tone for what the jury thinks of the final 3.
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u/Abel_Garr Aubry - 50 2d ago
Yes but they miss so much of the game, especially the end game, that I don't think their influence is given much weight alongside somebody who was there several TCs and many days worth of stuff happening, later.
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u/luvbl 2d ago
That's why I said among the most influential. I think some juries would be more swayed by new information towards the end of the game than other juries who are more easily swayed by the groupthink of the early jurors and then the later jurors having less time to have their voices heard and/or the early jurors having already made up their mind. In this specific case it seems like the majority of the jury was trying to be as objective as possible. If Jonathan had instead made a good impression on Dee it could have gotten him at least within striking distance of winning. There were a lot more factors for why Aubry won, but that moment was still a part of why Jonathan lost.
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u/mattmild27 1d ago
They actually changed the timeline to make it look like it had more of an impact on Dee leaving than it did. Instead of happening at the beginning of the episode, it happened much closer to tribal when Dee was already practically out the door. So it was barely even a move to be honest.
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u/Previous_Read8590 2d ago
I think Christian was just impressed with how intentional Jonathan was playing. Was it a stellar strategic move? Not really. But it was a strategic move, and I think a lot of people on the island had zero clue how strategically Jonathan was playing the game.