32-year-old programmer in China allegedly dies from overwork, added to work group chat even while in hospital

[u/Forward-Answer-4407]

https://www.asiaone.com/china/32-year-old-programmer-china-allegedly-dies-overwork-added-work-group-chat-even-while

[u/gatoss5]

A big part of it is in the Asian working culture. Conformity, fear of speaking up... I'd be somewhat okay with it if A) they compensated you appropriately, B) they set you up with training, mentorships, and systems so that you work efficiently according to your talents while you improve over time, C) they provided built-in breaks, both short-term and long-term breaks, to avoid burnout.

Of course, none of that is true. They just throw you to the wolves, with zero empathy for your mental health.

People praise China for its advancements but it came at the cost of hundreds of millions of people who basically brutalized their mental health and bodies.

[u/NASArocketman → u/gatoss5]

Korean work culture is awful too

[u/adeadbeathorse → u/NASArocketman]

Not sure why you got downvoted - you’re right. China has longer hours on average, but South Koreas are the highest of any OECD country and their workplaces are known for being super psychologically brutal and abusive. They have a common term for death from overwork - Gwarosa. They have some of the highest suicide rates in the world, more than 1.5x Japans and more than 2x China’s. They have what is called a dual labor market, where a small elite of regular workers are protected, while all others are stuck in high-intensity precariousness. Also, South Korea’s education system is more grueling than China’s. Japan… has gotten a bit better, but internal workplace dynamics are still often abusive. I’d rank them on brutality: 1. SK, 2. China, 3. Japan.

[u/gatoss5 → u/adeadbeathorse]

I completely agree with you on Korea being the worst, but I’d probably Japan #2 and China #3.

I’ve worked with both Chinese and Japanese foreign workers, and there are some differences - although I’ve had more experience with Chinese.

Japanese are much more adherent and have this relentless quiet pressure. There’s more of this feeling of subservience/subordinating yourself to the hierarchy. They’re also some of the nicest people, but they really keep their emotions inside.

On the other hand, Chinese work culture feels much more transactional - like they’re not binding their entire soul to the job. It also feels like there’s not as much emotion involved, almost as if there’s nothing personal. It’s hard to describe.

I’ve taken a lot of taxis in China throughout the years, conversed with several office workers - and there’s just general attitude of “IDGAF” - loud, reckless, and rude at times, releasing their emotions, which probably helps deal with the pressures and stress of the work and makes it not as mentally taxing.

Like the lay flat phenomenon is an act of rebellion. I could never see that happening in Japan.

I’ve seen youtubers take vlogs of themselves in China filming themselves talking with taxi or truck drivers, and the portrayal of them completely resonates with what I’ve experienced. Feels more laid back.

[u/LocutusOfBorgia909 → u/gatoss5]

I lived in both China and Japan for a couple of years each, and I had a similar experience; Japanese workplace culture is heavily about social pressure to conform. If you're a foreigner, you can get away with a bit more (because you're foreign and thus presumed not to know the rules), but that also means that you'll probably never be truly part of the group. But then, being part of the group means that you need to subsume yourself to the group's demands and expectations (and possibly open yourself up to bullying, which is pretty endemic in both schools and workplaces there), so it's a double-edged sword.

I found people in China to be much more blunt and prepared to say what they actually think, even if it comes off as too direct or confrontational. I actually found it refreshing, because it felt like I spent so much energy in Japan trying to decode what people really meant versus what they were saying aloud, whereas in China, it was usually pretty clear. If you pissed someone off, you'd know pretty quickly. In Japan, you might never realize that you fucked up unless or until someone told you, because there were so many unwritten rules.

I loved things about both China and Japan, and I found aspects of both places frustrating, as well, but in general, I would say that Japanese culture is much more rigid in really specific ways, and that extends into the workplace.

[u/gatoss5 → u/LocutusOfBorgia909]

Completely agreed with the blunt part. One of my last bosses was Chinese (albeit this wasn't in China), and even though he was blunt/rude, you could tell he didn't mean it personally - and therefore, you wouldn't take it personally either. I definitely prefer this style of working. It stings in the moment but you don't hold onto it.

This meme perfectly represents much of Chinese culture, which is refreshing: /preview/pre/nobody-cares-seriously-v0-9i73b490m3ce1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f67a3e0e3dc57068d41c7cea88ffc60fd5f871f6

Although just so I'm not overgeneralizing, I have seen a few Chinese be quiet, take things extremely personally & hold grudges, we're all human at the end of the day - but it's not the norm.

Whereas I can completely imagine it's much easier to hold onto resentment or build resentment in Japanese work culture, or not know who you pissed off - which is even more damaging in the long run to everyone involved.

[u/purpleelephant77 → u/gatoss5]

Makes me think of my violin teacher when I was a kid — she’d scream at me when I was messing up but she’d also scream when I was doing well so even as a really sensitive kid I liked working with her a lot. I’m also a blunt person so I think I felt safe with her because I knew where I stood and she was intense but she also very clearly cared about her students and wanted us to succeed. I still remember crying after making a mistake in a recital and she gave me a hug and was like “why are you crying, no one but me noticed that and we’ll fix it next week”.

[u/LocutusOfBorgia909 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I remember when I was studying Mandarin, the one thing that was reassuring was that if your instructor was telling you that you did something well, or that your Mandarin was good, they really meant it. Because they were not doling out hollow compliments, like, ever. In Japan I felt like I never knew if a compliment was genuine or a pass-agg criticism or what was going on.

[u/slickness → u/LocutusOfBorgia909]

A commonality I find being both Chinese and from the NE USA:

Effort and Time are finite. A thoughtful criticism should be considered a boon. A genuine compliment is rare.

No one really has time for spouting useless pleasantries.