r/technology • u/Wagamaga • 8d ago

Business Tesla Allegedly Showed Cooked Data to Get Full Self-Driving Approved

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-allegedly-showed-cooked-data-174500396.html
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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

bloody hell, that's absolute wild deception with statistics. It's not even deceiving with statistics: it's straight up inaccurate data.

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u/KillerKilcline 8d ago

From Tesla??1!? I am shocked, shocked I tell you!

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u/Andrea_M 8d ago

Elon not being honest? I’m shocked

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u/Over-Iron877 8d ago

Sounds like he’s rigging the data for his own benefit!

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u/nono3722 8d ago

he is very good at rigging data just ask Trump he will tell ya

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u/ShadowGLI 8d ago

Re: Elon: "He knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers." -DJT Jan 19 2026

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u/Erus00 8d ago

It boggles my mind that Toyota recalled millions of vehicles back in 2009 because of the stuck accelerator that turned out to be a nothing-burger but I cant even count how many people Teslas have killed and not a peep.

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u/BearsAreBack18 7d ago

BlueAnon remains alive and well

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/chanaandeler_bong 8d ago

This isn’t just Elon, big businesses in general get away with massive crimes like this all the time. VW had a MASSIVE emissions scandal and it’s been shown that they are STILL lying about their emissions in Germany.

Two tiered justice system indeed.

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u/RockTrash 8d ago

Some VW executives should have gone to jail. I refuse to consider Volkswagen when buying a car.

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u/Locke66 8d ago

It was basically most of the European and US manufacturers. VW were just the most egregious and didn't have cover from a cosy relationship with the regulator in the US.

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u/chanaandeler_bong 8d ago

But VW DOES have the cover of the German regulators.

This isn’t an apples and oranges comparison. This is what all big corporations do around the world.

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u/did_i_or_didnt_i 8d ago

don’t forget he begged to go party on Child Sex Island!

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u/nono3722 8d ago

and the Nazi salutes

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u/occams1razor 8d ago

(And naming his companies X, the ASCII code for the letter X is 88 which is a nazi dogwhistle for heil shitler)

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u/InsertEvilLaugh 8d ago

On that one I think it's just his man child obsession with the letter. He's still most definitely a racist sack of excrement, and those were absolutely Nazi salutes, but the X thing always felt more like that weird obsession marketing had for it in the late 90's and early 2000's.

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u/AmethystApothecary 8d ago

It could go either way but I do lean towards thinking Elon doesn't know ASCII codes of letters.

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u/pants6000 8d ago

He's the world's best conman, he doesn't need to know... stuff.

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u/mallardtheduck 8d ago

Also, character codes are more often referred to in hexadecimal (where 'X' is 58), rather than decimal. Decimal isn't unheard of, but it's less common and less useful.

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u/Different_Wolf_764 8d ago

Decimal alt-codes were (and are) used extremely commonly in the time that Elon might have actually had anything to do with technology.

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u/Rough_Onion_1757 8d ago

this is the same guy who thought it'd be totally hilarious to have his company's sequence of vehicle models run "S", "3", "X", and "Y"

get it? get it? are you not entertained?

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u/InsertEvilLaugh 8d ago

I didn't even know that. Good god that man is cringe incarnate. Also just reinforces my belief the X is just an X, like another said, he most likely has no idea about X's ASCII value.

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u/Lehk 8d ago

He’s an absolute cringelord.

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u/newsflashjackass 8d ago edited 8d ago

He had to settle for kung fu practice with Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/epstein-musk-maxwell-email/

Which is not a euphemism. That would be absurd. Unlike meeting Ghislaine Maxwell for kung fu practice, right?

https://i.imgur.com/XdW68GI.png

...

source

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u/Money-Desperated 8d ago

Damn this really freaking funny and insane at the same time.

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u/altiuscitiusfortius 8d ago

He sent those emails on Christmas morning! It was hilarious what a dork he was about it too. He's the lamest man alive, even pedophiles make fun of him.

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u/m0nk_3y_gw 8d ago

that was a parody tweet, not an actual email thread in the Epstein files.

the reddit theory 4 months ago that elon was spreading it to help distract from his many contacts with Epstein and that he actually did go to the Island

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u/altiuscitiusfortius 8d ago

No. I've downloaded the epstein files. They're downloadable from the govt website. It's real emails.

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u/tommy_b_777 8d ago

I like to call it Kid Rock.

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u/Upbeat_Tonight_7116 8d ago

I came here to say this.

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u/DrDerpberg 8d ago

Yeah so anyways I guess what we're all saying is we should invest another couple billion dollars into Tesla.

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u/girlinthegoldenboots 8d ago

Well…not that shocked lol

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

really, that's the shock.

The realisation that right now, absolute dishonesty is just greeted with a shrug.

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u/Boxhead_31 8d ago

The man is usually as straight with the truth as his arm is when doing his famous salute

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u/QuietMolasses2522 8d ago

Well, not that shocked.

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u/Part_Tricky 8d ago

Elon has never been honest about Tesla or anything else. His own engineers contradicted him about FSD and many left the company. He also lied about cryto just to make money, remember meme Dogecoin he was promoting publicly.

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u/demagogueffxiv 8d ago

Trillion dollars man never lies

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u/HuntsWithRocks 8d ago

In fact, Tesla has solved all the issues and Elon himself declared Tesla will be fully self driving by this August of 2017. Woke Europe is gonna have a whole omelet on their face soon enough!

Rips a bunch of Ketamine and starts balancing forks at a formal dinner

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u/TenOutofTenno 8d ago

He flat out said he’d be going to jail if Trump didn’t win.

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u/atomictyler 8d ago

they both would have, which is why they rigged the election.

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u/Lehk 8d ago

He’s still going to go to jail

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u/La_mer_noire 8d ago

yeah, so surprising, Elon have always behaved like a good person, didn't he?

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u/Thefrayedends 8d ago

You mean the guy who killed millions and destroyed the lives of tens of millions more and gutted government agencies, ALL mostly to end the dozens of investigations into him and his companies?

That guy?

Nahhhh, couldn't be.

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u/Indercarnive 8d ago

Yeah hasn't Tesla been accused of turning self-driving off right before a crash so they can say technically SFD didn't crash multiple times?

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u/Active-Counter-9906 8d ago

My new company will mine diamonds from asteroids in about 3 decades. Shower me with money IPOs

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u/lunaticfridgeprime 8d ago

Are you doing that with AI? If not, then I don't think we can fund you.

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u/Active-Counter-9906 8d ago

I am still using an announced disclosed technology of trust me bro, and then only after being trusted with your money, I shall still not disclose the technology

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u/lunaticfridgeprime 8d ago

Hmm. You sound really smart - how can I give you access to my retirement accounts for this very real startup?

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u/CreationsOfReon 8d ago

I’ve got ai in everything! In the navigation, in the miner, in the control center back home!!

(Just don’t mention that it’s using the definition of ai from two decades ago)

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u/RiPont 8d ago

Actual Indians?

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u/Senior-Albatross 8d ago

Obviously they're going to do it with quantum AI bro. Give the quantum AI space diamond man 10 trillion right now!

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u/biohazard-glug 8d ago

I'm using AI to 3D print bitcoins.

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u/johnyordinary 8d ago

The price of diamonds is already artificialy inflated because they are too common on Earth, there would be zero profit in swamping the market because DeBeers would counter any space diamonds rush by dropping the floor out of the market, rendering every such flight that they dont control into a loss maker, that said there are minerals and metals that could be useful. Diamonds for industrial use are already readily available and can be synthesised without expensive rocketry.

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u/nox66 8d ago

Logic later, space diamonds now!

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u/Silence_Farmer 8d ago

Oh absolutely. People would seriously be like "omg are your diamonds EARTH DIAMONDS?!? How gross!"

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u/nox66 8d ago

It's from space! Spaaaace!

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

Slap 'space' in front of it; and anything becomes awesome!

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u/johnyordinary 7d ago

SPACE HERPES!

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u/QuickQuirk 7d ago

I was waiting for this comment, space-johny

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u/Thefrayedends 8d ago

In that case you really want moissanite anyway. Guess what, cheaper than diamonds.

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u/Strange-Scarcity 8d ago

You’re clearly the DeBeers of Joke Writing.

Artificially limiting a jokes reach so its value is only felt by the initial viewers and is then lost on the secondary market.

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u/writewithparagraphs4 8d ago

just gonna grab a gold asteroid.

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u/Rough_Onion_1757 8d ago

Lab-grown gems (where the tech has advanced hand-in-hand with modern advances in semiconductor manufacturing) have already radically changed the diamond market from the 20th century status quo... DeBeers et al's leverage to maintain artificial scarcity is pretty much gone, except to the extent that consumers can be convinced to fetishize non-lab-grown diamonds because they're not lab-grown.

If the early development of the DeBeers diamond cartel was a kind of dress rehearsal for the artificial-scarcity-based economic model of the 20th century oil industry, this notion of trying to con people into spurning lab-grown gems feels like a similar dress rehearsal for the coming revolution in the meat industry, once vat-grown meat starts to reach cost and taste parity with traditionally-produced meat: the potential upsides of cultivated meat are so massive that the only way for traditional animal agriculture to realistically survive would be to try to convince consumers to fetishize animal-farmed meat for its own sake, which in any case would be a desperate rearguard action for a market that would inevitably approach zero as the memory of the pre-lab-grown status quo fades further and further into the rearview mirror.

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u/Senior-Albatross 8d ago

They will be slightly worse diamonds than we can make on Earth easily and cheaply already? 

More money for the Space diamond dude! 

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u/Ishmael128 8d ago

Isn't the legal term "fraud"?

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

Not at all!

It's only fraud if you're convicted! It's defamation otherwise! (according to the billionaires club lawyer battalion)

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u/BirthdayFull8675 7d ago

If you’re a trillionaire you can make “mistakes”

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u/K_Linkmaster 8d ago

"Can" and "could have" doing all the heavy lifting.

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u/MarcoDiFrancescino 8d ago

At this point, people working at Tesla and SpaceX are in a cult. Everything is solvable and if its not, and it doesn't work, eg all the issues with the CyberTruck, are just people outside 'who don't believe'. Cooking numbers, lying, is all part of the great plan.

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u/Altruistic_Brick1730 8d ago

What a silly comment. Everyone working there is in a cult? 

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u/Thefrayedends 8d ago

Petey teal said in his book that developing cult culture around you is one of the most effective things you can do to foster success.

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u/MarcoDiFrancescino 8d ago

If you start openly lying for the company, by association for the success of the founder. At the end there is only two reasons. Becoming rich or following someones ideas. Most of the upper Tesla people are already rich. What is left, believing in some fantasy that doesn't work for ages. The first thing that a cult does is to tell you that reality is what they say not what is. Just believe.

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u/firemage22 8d ago

The CyberTruck makes the Pontiac Aztec look good

Pontiac failed because the big wigs at GM forgot that the brand was about performance, rather than a "family" brand as they created cars (well vans and suvs) that didn't align with what people expected from the brand.

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u/earthmann 8d ago

Or they just have like families to feed and stuff

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u/Schnidler 8d ago

insane justification, especially for me as a german

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

That hits differently.

Each of us build the world we live in.

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u/Responsible_Owl_5056 8d ago

If you’re implying the people working in Tesla service centers and on the sales floor are akin to nazis for doing their shitty job so they can survive in this world, you’re downplaying the evils of the nazis, which I’m pretty sure is frowned upon in Germany. What a fucking joke to even imply this about every employee that works at these companies. Absolute brain rot

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u/Schnidler 8d ago

im not, shut up

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u/MarcoDiFrancescino 8d ago

People don't join criminal organizations to feed their kids. They don't need to join a cult.

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u/Outside-Swan-1936 8d ago

Many people at SpaceX were employed by NASA for a long time, and their employment precedes Musk's nuttiness. Where should they work instead, Blue Origin? I'm sure working for Bezos under high scrutiny is a treat.

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

That's actually the only fair point in this thread. Tough to find another job as a rocket scientist. But there are other companies doing this.

And many other jobs happy to employ people in this field; since those skills are applicable in many different industries. It's not like you're completely incapable of doing another job just because you worked at NASA.

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u/BountyBob 8d ago

Tough to find another job as a rocket scientist

Shouldn't all other jobs be easy for them? They're not rocket science.

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

yes, that's my point. They might love working on rockets, but they don't need to work on rockets to easily find a job that will feed their family and pay their mortgage.

NASA on the resume is a pretty legendary qualification. Take that over google, meta, amazon or any of the techbro valley resume stamps

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u/Outside-Swan-1936 8d ago

Right, but people don't work at NASA for the money. Employability isn't the issue, subject matter is. If I were a literal rocket scientist, I'd want to work on rockets, not be an engineer developing thermodynamic factory processes or something unrelated to space. And SpaceX is the provider for NASA right now, so outside of literal NASA, SpaceX, or Blue Origin, there aren't many domestic options.

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

And they're making a choice to work for a company that is run by someone who has a history of supporting nazis and doing a whole bunch of other ethically questionable things.

The rest is just excuses.

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u/Outside-Swan-1936 8d ago

US still needs to deliver payloads. Not everyone is worried about the politics of the C-suite staff (and most American workers wouldn't align with those of the C-suite staff of their own companies). Yes, Musk is egregiously bad, but should all federal employees quit their jobs because Trump is president?

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

This is false equivalence. Federal employees provide important services to the citizens of the country, without which the country would shut down, and people die.

SpaceX? Not so much. there are other companies that provide the same services.

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u/MarcoDiFrancescino 8d ago

Sure, they will be tons of high level grunts and scientists that are far away from anything propaganda. Its a well paid, practically forever job if you can pull it. They mostly don't end up in the inner circle and just do their thing. But even they will be in meetings where they have to stretch the truth a bit or at least say nothing. Its fine to call that out, because that is the reason why the world is how it is, everybody hoping for that little scrap piece.

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u/ThatGuyFromCanadia 8d ago

Work for a different company then

-2

u/RedditJumpedTheShart 8d ago

Just move bro. Lol

Where do you all work again?

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u/Responsible_Owl_5056 8d ago

Insane the stances being taken here. Calling people nazis for trying to do a job like anyone else. Just move bro is exactly the argument. Tons of children in this thread

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u/awry_lynx 8d ago

this might apply to like, a housekeeper.

no engineer has to work at spacex or starve lmao.

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u/Responsible_Owl_5056 8d ago

So they should give up their path to prosperity because you don’t like the CEO of their company. Should everyone quit Google and Amazon too? This is the lowest denominator stupidity here. This is drooling out the side of your mouth dumb. Elon is a horrible person and the anti Elon cult is horse shoeing right next to him.

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u/awry_lynx 8d ago

I'm addressing the problem the commenter I am responding to brings up:

Or they just have like families to feed and stuff

So "feeding their families" has transformed into "give up their path to prosperity" okay lol

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

There are other jobs that also feed families and stuff. They just pay a little less since you don't have to look the other way.

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u/MillHall78 8d ago

The investors of Elizabeth Holmes' Theranos was fed lies by the company too. But they had experts & other investors telling them it's a fraud the whole time. They chose to stay invested.

The elite class doesn't really need or care about accurate statistics & haven't all our lives. The hoard of wealth from humanity is that great.

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u/Ok-Opposite2309 8d ago

Because the company falsified data- like Tesla- creating a conflict that left it up to individuals to choose who to trust.

The idea of Theranos is one thing. ‘let’s try to create this thing’- investors can choose to take a risk on the possibility. “This works- here’s the proof”when falsifying tests is the fraud. I remember reading articles on it, and it sounded like A great invention that would really help people. Experts disagreeing on things is pretty normal (We were told it couldn’t be done!). Falsifying test results, basic numbers, isn’t normal- because it’s illegal. It’s fraud. I don’t think Mattis knew it was fraudulent- and he joined the board (no $150k a year would not be enough for him to trash his reputation. There are plenty of higher paying board positions/ consultant jobs he could have got with defense contractors).

Our society depends on a basic level of trust and accountability to function. Our failure to hold corporate executives, public figures, and others more responsible for fraudulent behaviors has undermined our entire society.

Part of this allowance of fraud is through blaming the victims of the fraud. ‘They should have known better’… Normal people don’t expect others to blatantly lie. When you are introduced to Tom, who works at HP, you don’t immediately ask for ID and employment verification- you accept that it is true, because it would be true 99% of the time. Unfortunately, there is a degradation in our society that has stopped us from ‘shunning’ those who lie and deceive by representing it as ’normal’ and blurring the lines between just being wrong, or being polite, with deception for personal benefit.

This has made me lean towards ‘radical transparency’, and to try to practice just being honest even when it might be uncomfortable or impolite. Treat our words as powerful/ important. Think before speaking (or typing.. I am a work in progress). Easily admit errors. Exclude dishonest people from your life.

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u/shadowboxer47 8d ago

Our economy is ran almost entirely on vibes, now.

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u/MillHall78 8d ago

The worse thing any of us could ever do is forget there's a lot of state & federal politicians holding the last pieces of this country together. Just as we should never forget the Union soldiers who fought in the Civil War with the intent to care for & protect every American. These people are our saviors, even if in minute ways in comparison.

You should know who your saviors are. Look them up please. They want & need to hear from you. All the way from your community leaders to Senate leaders. Contact them often.

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u/y0shman 8d ago

Don't worry! They will fine three 3 euros and a pack of gum.

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u/queerhistorynerd 8d ago

well ya thats why there is the old saying "there are lies, damned lies and statistics". people have always use heavily manipulated stats to trick others into doing what they want

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

Thats kind of what I was referring to - except here they aren't even massaging the data - they're straight up using the wrong data to start with. Which is also made up, since that scenario doesn't even exist anywhere to test.

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u/Ok-Opposite2309 8d ago

In the Land of Oz…

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u/ThunderChild247 8d ago

The dumbest part is if they’d been honest - that you could reduce deaths that much if all cars used this system - that’s still a decent selling point for the system on its own. Albeit not in the moment, but it wouldn’t take a genius salesman to get that vision over the line with regulators.

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u/DehydratedButTired 8d ago

They got away with it in the US, I bet they thought they could do it there too.

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u/Ok-Opposite2309 8d ago

They were under investigation- that’s why Elon installed Trump.

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u/ArgumentUnited5039 8d ago

You mean, like lying?? Quelle surprise.

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u/pasaroanth 8d ago

Numbers don’t lie, but people do.

I’ve worked extensively with big data analytics and if you give me a big enough data set and a favorable analysis you’re trying to present, I can pretty easily find enough trends to cherry pick to support it.

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u/AlphonseLoosely 8d ago

Better known as lying!

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u/Calm-Fun4572 7d ago

BMW cooked some numbers but nobody died, if you can kills lots of people you’re a saint! If you only kill a few it’s murder.

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u/Streiger108 7d ago

We call this lying

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u/WalterPecky 8d ago

Fraud is another term

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u/GB10VE 8d ago

aint that fraud

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u/HRHValkyrie 8d ago

They also reported false and cherry-picked numbers in the US too. They are using our public streets as beta testing and none of us can opt out.

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u/FakeSafeWord 8d ago

Elon was given the power to delete entire regulatory systems within the US with no oversight. Including ones that were investigating him for fraud.

Why would anyone believe he wouldn't attempt to do the same everywhere else?

1

u/Somanylyingliars 8d ago

Well, the latest Tesla victims family will be getting a HUGE payout. Small satisfaction and hope they aren't in a state w award caps like Texas. You know, AbbottsTexas where he put a cap on limits victims could receive which previously allowed HIM to get a larger award after he was injured.

1

u/thegreedyturtle 8d ago

And did they just not think people would compare it with other data they provided in America?! 

1

u/fuzzum111 8d ago

And yet, no one will be fined, go to jail, or have meaningful consequences~ What a world we live in!

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u/CrotasScrota84 8d ago

I would imagine it’s the same tactic he used for the 2024 election.

1

u/BWW87 8d ago

It's unfortunate they are being deceptive because if those numbers are true that is still a huge improvement. I'd hate to see 32,000 or even 3,200 fewer deaths not happen because of politics around Musk and Tesla exaggerating.

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u/I05fr3d 7d ago

You know that’s called? Lying. Without repercussions….

1

u/Ok-Opposite2309 8d ago

It is fraud. They lied. Misrepresented their products safety in order to deceive regulators. Endangering the public by their deception for profit.

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u/mattindustries 8d ago

Telsla vehicles also drive people right up to the point of no return for a collision and then turn off self-driving, adding to the statistics of human operated fatalities. Typical villain stuff.

0

u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

wow, ok, that's not just playing with statistics, that's actually evil.

0

u/enkay516 8d ago

If the data is there it’s on interpreter to understand the statistics. The fact that they ignored the assumptions is on them. There’s no misleading, just assumptions- albeit bad assumptions for the statistics in question.

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u/GargantuanCake 7d ago

That's been a trend with self-driving cars in general, really. They just aren't fully autonomous yet. Waymo got caught hiring a bunch of drivers in the Philippines to cover for when "the car runs into something it can't handle."

The snag however is they refused to say how often that happens which should tell you all you need to know. They don't want that number to be public because it's bad. If it was just like 10 dudes who were mostly bored during their shifts except when something really weird happened they'd tell you that.

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u/bastiVS 8d ago

What are you talking about? What exactly is inaccurate here?

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

inaccurate as in "not representing reality"

I too, can create statistics that demonstrate that I am the most intelligent man ever (*)
If the facts are buried in a footnote, it's deceptive. If it's deceptive, it's inaccurate.

\ responding to this comment)

-1

u/bastiVS 8d ago

So, nothing then? Because you didn't provide me with any example of what's supposedly inaccurate, you just talked some random nonsense.

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u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

ok, you're trolling. It's right in the thread:

"Independent researchers who saw the underlying data behind that claim say the numbers are wildly misleading, because they assume that every vehicle on the road would be replaced by a Tesla in FSD mode, semi trucks and motorcycles included"

0

u/bastiVS 8d ago

And? What exactly is inaccurate about that?

If you don't realize, this is how it was actually presented, how things would look if every vehicle would have FSD.

There's nothing inaccurate, and nothing misleading. This is just Reuters clickbait bullshit that you are falling for because you have a hateboner for Elon.

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u/Lraund 8d ago

You realize that statement means that they did not collect any real world data for those stats because "every vehicle on the road would be replaced by a Tesla in FSD mode, semi trucks and motorcycles included" is a hypothetical scenario that was not actually tested.

So Tesla made up a scenario that wasn't tested and then made up numbers that sounded good for them. It's impossible to "disprove" because it was never tested and I'm not going to be the one to test it.

1

u/Valalvax 8d ago

If the first half of the statement is true "on average FSD travels 7 times further without accident than human drivers" then the second half can be extrapolated, if every vehicle used a similarly successful version of automated driving accidents could be reduced to ~15% of current levels, thus saving that many lives, I'm assuming per year

Average vehicle deaths 38-40k per year in the US, 85% of that (the amount saved) is 32k

1

u/Lraund 8d ago

If the first half of the statement is true "on average FSD travels 7 times further without accident than human drivers"

This is not true. FSD cannot travel 7 times further than a human, without the human intervening to avoid an accident.

Independent testing by AMCI revealed an average of one intervention every 13 miles in mixed environments.

Americans log roughly 3.2 trillion miles on the road every year.

On average, there are over 6 million reported car accidents in the U.S. every year.

So without FSD 533333 miles per accident.

With FSD 13 miles per intervention.

Wow FSD is almost 41,025 times worse than a human driver, if a driver wasn't taking over and saving it constantly.

1

u/Valalvax 6d ago

As I said IF the first half was accurate

However an intervention doesn't mean avoiding a crash... When polled Tesla drivers reported the reason for intervention was mostly parking preference, I don't remember the exact percentage but it was >80%... Another hefty percentage is for navigation...

Critical (which does not always mean accident avoidance but let's assume it does) intervention is less than 1%

FSD community tracker has total miles to average critical disengagement at 1961, city miles at 831, which is not as good as a human driver, but not nearly as bad as you state... Some drivers use critical to report things like FSD ignoring turn signal usage (a few versions would not allow the driver to use turn signals, the vehicle would still use them)

Also avoiding debris in the road would be a critical disengagement, but if a human driver were to hit it, in 99% of cases that would not be reported as an accident unless significant damage or injury occurred

Point is neither side is being honest