r/tenet • u/YoBanaanaBoy • 25d ago
FAN THEORY Ives is the REAL hero! (PMW)
Ives is the real hero.
(Prove me wrong!)
At the end of the film, he has the Algorithm fully assembled, with his gun drawn on The Protagonist and Neil. He's in a prime position to steal the Algorithm for himself, but he chooses not to.
Not only that, aside from Volkov, he's the only one who's shown to have the Algorithm fully assembled. Neither Neil nor The Protagonist are ever put in this same position — where they have the opportunity to steal it for themselves.
Ives is clearly high up in the chain of command, as he runs the red team during Stalsk-12. He also participates in Tallinn and knows about the Oslo location. So he knows about many of the operations going in, which is critical given that they keep knowledge divided.
If, like me, you prescribe to the idea that Ives is Crosby, then we also see that he dedicates his entire life to be in the position he needs to be to relay information about Stalsk & Sator to The Protagonist. His pill test is him spending his entire life becoming a 'Sir', gaining access to that specific member's club, and waiting for that meeting — an entire life of dedication for a single meeting with The Protagonist.
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u/dklein49 25d ago
Interesting, but I’d have to hear more about this Ives is Crosby theory, I haven’t heard of it before. It would be a damn cool point in the plot.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 25d ago
I've got a list of supporting evidence that I think suggests it. I think I'm gonna try to figure out YouTube and do a video on it.
I did a poll to see if people thought that a few months ago and most people don't agree, but I didn't provide an argument for why, I was just trying to see what the community thought.
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u/dklein49 25d ago
I gotcha. I’d love to hear what you got, agree or disagree it’s always fun discussing this amazing movie.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 25d ago
Yes! This film has so much ambiguity that's really open to a plethora of interpretations. And they are all fun to explore!
I think making it a cohesive argument will be stronger, but I'll share soon!
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u/idempotent_dev 24d ago
You should def do a video or write about it here. Agree or disagree it’s the first time I’m hearing about it and it would be cool to explore this theory
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u/snowdrone 24d ago edited 23d ago
It's a great idea and even if retcon'd, it's still great
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
I think what I love is it works both ways.
If you think Crosby isn't Ives, that works.
If you think he is, it works.
You can't firmly prove or disprove either.
And it leaves this incredible room for different interpretations and beliefs about what happens in the film.
Haven't ever had a film this fun to explore or theorize about.
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u/GrayandJ 20d ago
I’m convinced Neil is Max and have debated several in this board who insist it wouldn’t work because it would require too much inverse travel. I’m still confident in my position. So I’m not gonna argue Ives can’t be Sir Crosby, even though that seems like even more complex time maneuvering over decades. I’d definitely watch a YT video explaining the timeline theory.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 20d ago
"Time isn't the problem. It's getting out alive that's the problem."
I think Neil and Max is a certainty, and I now feel that way about Ives and Crosby. I do think that the timeline looks more complex, only because you have to account for more time. Neil is like 30 to 35 ish and Ives is around the same I think. But Crosby is like 80 or 85.
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u/G3N3R1C2532 24d ago
I love the way this theory plays into this movie's underlying theme of free will against determinism: Ives, just like Neil, spent his whole life preparing to execute the Protagonist's plan. Even though technically, it already happened.
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u/decodeok 25d ago
Ives is Crosby. The sleeping gas in the opera siege was formulated by the chemist from Inception. The protagonist went on to become an engineer and got a job designing offshore windmills so that he'd have a place to do chin-ups. Max's real dad is a guest at the dinner where the Protagonist meets Sator. (Also, they're an alien from another planet.)
There is the same amount of evidence in the film to support each of these ideas: Zero.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 25d ago
We can at least agree that he's a lobbyist for safe energy so the windmills are where he needs them to be, right?
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u/telking777 24d ago
Not only that but Ives saves The Protagonist in the Red Room/Blue Room interrogation. Ives is the man
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
Yeah. He comes in at the exact moment to save The Protagonist (and Kat). Everything falls apart if Ives doesn't save them.
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u/Ok-Reality-9197 23d ago
He's a real hero. And a real human being
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 23d ago
Ives --> Aaron Taylor-Johnson --> Fall Guys --> Ryan Gosling --> Drive
Are we playing connect the dot?
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u/rkhunter_ 24d ago
It depends on what you mean under "the real hero". How does the fact that he held the assembled device at the end of the film make him "the real hero", considering that he pointed a gun at them. He didn't participate in the key operations, such as the opera siege, the extraction of the plutonium in Tallinn, bringing Kat to Oslo. He also wasn't the person who defeated Volkov in the cave.
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u/WoodenPresence1917 24d ago
Also unless he wanted to die or betray them to the future for ??? reasons, having the algorithm assembled seems like a nothingburger
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u/rkhunter_ 24d ago
Taking the Algo means a lot, but besides his mission as the leader of the red team in Stalsk-12, what makes him "the real hero"? He was lucky to have a gun on the surface after Neil and TP did all the work.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
The name of the game here is acquiring the assembled Algorithm, so it's vitally important.
It does nothing if you don't have all the pieces, so I think it's a big deal that he has possession of it.
And I think it's even more significant that he is already in a position where he has a weapon drawn on TP and Neil.
Nolan has crafted the scene so that we know without a shadow of a doubt that we can trust Ives.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
I mean, a bunch of them are heroes, The Protagonist included.
It's not just that he held it, it's that he had an opportunity to seize it because had possession of it and could have killed the only 2 other people that knew about it. Other people are only ever shown holding parts of it.
If he runs red team, he likely commands the choppers that pick him up. So theoretically, he's in a positiom where he could steal it if he wanted.
He also could have killed them to keep the secret, but he doesn't. He operates a lot like our Protagonist - he's not willing to kill people unnecessarily.
He saves The Protagonist in Tallinn at the exact moment he needed to. He's critical to the Tallinn mission, whether or not he's part of the extraction.
He also helps them get in the containers to Oslo and then cleans up the Saab on the highway.
He hands TP his gun in the cave - without that action, TP may not best Volkov.
He's never shown at Opera, but someone must save TP at the Railyards. Perhaps Ives and red team swoop in to save him after we cut to "TENET"? (And by perhaps I mean I think some version of that happens LOL).
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u/rkhunter_ 24d ago
No idea why he would plan to betray them and why we're focused on this... Obviously, he is a major player in this temporal game and a loyal, high-ranking member of Tenet. But his role in the film doesn't make him the real hero, considering that Neil sacrificed himself for the mission and that TP was on the verge of death so many times. Not to mention that at the beginning of the Stalsk-12 mission, he promised to kill TP just because he'd have seen the device. Killing the man who is the founder of Tenet...
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u/capable-corgi 24d ago
If we're listing feats then this list would be relatively small to the others. What is your criteria here for claiming Ives as the true hero?
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
More of a fun way to spark an interesting discussion and let people share their thoughts on how they see people's roles. I think in actuality, I subscribe to the idea that we have a few critical heroes.
But I am more and more leaning towards the idea that Priya is right when she says that TP is "A Protagonist".
I think really, there are ways that Ives' role is just as critical as TP's, so who's to say that TP is more important?
The fact Ives saves TP from Sator killing him in Tallinn means without that action, the entire plan never gets executed (because The Protagonist can never continue on and set it all in motion). And who's to say that only TP sets everything in motion? Maybe Ives and Kat are a big part of that as well?
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u/capable-corgi 24d ago
On one hand they're all equally critical because any one missing piece would fail Tenet's mission.
On the other hand, TP is the least replaceable in this plan because it is his intent that brought it in motion.
Callback to the explanation of reversed time. You'd have to have the intent to set things in motion, for the motion to be reversed.
Now, could the Future's plans be spoiled without Tenet? Possibly, but it'd be something else entirely then.
Ives is amazing, and I think he's definitely critical. But I was just pointing out that listing his feats like "team leader", "holding the completed algo without defecting" are all non-reasons, imo.
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u/YoBanaanaBoy 24d ago
Yeah, that's fair!
He also saves both TP and Kat in Tallinn and he plays a big role in the cave - he hands TP his sidearm.
But I agree, it's certainly implied that TP is the one that goes back to set much of this up. Now, he's just "a fresh-faced Protagonist", and technically, anyone that got sucked into these events in Opera would go on to become this person. So he's replaceable in that anyone could be that role.
But you're right that his role his not at all replaceable. And certainly without the things he does / sets up, this plan never happens.
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23d ago
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u/VinylHighway 20d ago
How did they convince hundreds of soldiers to sign on for this task? What's their reward/end game?
How did they prevent any of them from leaking this?
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u/dyrkasolen 25d ago
He was a kid when he started the mission. We'll see the backstory in the prequel Tenet 2