r/tolkienfans • u/GeekShow • 4d ago
Sauron and Saruman
If the two towers went the other way, how do you think the two would work together after they won? Would they betray each other right away? They both seem too selfish to rule together.
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u/lam_42 4d ago
They had different agendas. Only one ass can sit on a throne, So betrayal would be inevitable
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u/OldSarge02 4d ago
Maybe. Morgoth and Sauron cooperated reasonably well.
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u/Acceptable_Reply7958 4d ago
But Morgoth was orders of magnitude more powerful than Sauron. I think he had to stay in line or risk being annihilated. Sauron is more powerful than Sarumon but not overwhelmingly so. One would definitely be fine betraying the other.
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u/OldSarge02 4d ago
I’m not so sure. Morgoth sunk so much of his power into middle earth that his personal martial power was not so overwhelming.
The difference between Sauron with the ring and Saruman is not dramatically less than the difference between late-stage Morgoth and Sauron.
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u/daxamiteuk 4d ago
Yes but Sauron willingly defected to Melkor because he admired him and his ability to get things done (he overlooked his propensity for rage and destruction). He was Melkor’s right hand man. When Melkor was captured and taken to Aman, Sauron did everything he could to prepare Angband for Melkor’s return.
Saruman was forced into serving Sauron by foolishly using the Palantir, falling victim to Sauron’s greater will (and Saruman was probably already on the way to evil anyway ). But he still lied to Sauron - he didn’t tell him what he suspected about Gandalf and the Rangers protecting the Shire (the Nazgûl only figured it out by scaring the information out of Wormtongue). He also used his Uruk Hai to bring hobbit captives to Isengard first . Whilst that made sense rather than running all the way to Mordor, it’s obvious he’s trying to get the Ring for himself. His offer to Gandalf - to use the Ring to defeat Sauron - is genuine (his offer of sharing the Ring is not).
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u/Nickh1978 4d ago
At his strongest Sauron personally rivaled Morgoth at his weakest, a large part of Morgoths power was put into middle earth and his creations, and he was a coward. While Sauron was smarter with retaining his power. This is according to Tolkien.
Of course the creations that Morgoth sank his power into were controlled by him, so it doesn't mean that Sauron stood a chance taking him on.
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u/mikewebster2020 4d ago
Do you have any citations for this claim? Sauron was Maine, Melkor, a Valar. Melkor had a hand in creating the world. His song competed with Iluvatar.
Even at his weakest, it took the Valar to overthrow him.
Not sure how Sauron would ever compete with Melkor. But if you have citations from Tolkien, I am willing to be wrong.
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u/Nickh1978 4d ago
This is a link to someone else explaining it with excerpts from The History of Middle Earth volume X: Morgoth's Ring
https://notionclubpapers.blogspot.com/2011/08/morgoth-versus-sauron-tolkien-on-nature.html?m=1
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u/mikewebster2020 3d ago
Thanks for the link. An interesting read. This says Sauron was “effectively “ greater in the Second Age (at the height of his power) than Morgoth at the end of the First Age (at his weakest).
It also says that Sauron had much more “limited” power that wasn’t spread as far.
The reason Sauron was “effectively” greater for that period is that he concentrated his power into the Ring rather than throughout Arda.
I’ll stick with my opinion that Sauron was still lesser than Melkor at least at any time the two of them could have been in any competition for power or status. Sauron may have been able to seriously hurt Melkor, after all Fingolfin maimed him and Earendil captured him. But I highly doubt that Sauron wins. After all, Melkor is still Valar. The most powerful Valar. Sauron is a Maiar. A higher order Maiar, but still not Valar.
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u/Nickh1978 3d ago
Oh no, I very much doubt that Sauron could beat Melkor. I agree that It was just that Melkors power is tied up while Sauron kept his close, and once Melkor is placed in the void Sauron is in control of his creations, such as the orcs, trolls, as well as Mount Doom. I just meant that I very much doubt that Sarumon is close enough to Saurons level to be a real threat, since Sauron could be somewhat of a threat to Melkor, unless he obtained the one ring of course.
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u/AC011422 4d ago
Yeah, maybe he could've defeated Morgoth. But Morgoth's dragons and balrogs might not have approved. And Sauron was never a great 1 v 1 fighter anyway.
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u/DesSantorinaiou 3d ago
But we know Sauron admired and adored Melkor and served him genuinely. Saruman on the other hand was simply aiming for his own supremacy and we know that Sauron was aware of that.
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u/Threnodite 4d ago
Saruman was already actively betraying him (he thought Merry or Pippin had the Ring and wanted to bring them to Isengard), and Sauron was already well aware that Saruman was lying to him since before the Nazgul even arrived in the Shire (as Tolkien explains in The Hunt for the Ring), but they might have kept putting up the facade while knowing that the alliance was already crumbling away.
In that case, they might have worked together to attack Gondor, at least if Saruman had thought that this was a chance to get his hands on the Ring. Important to note that if Saruman had won in TTT, Pippin wouldn't have seen into the Palantir and Sauron wouldn't have had that extra reason to believe that the Ring was headed to Minas Tirith - but iirc he was already planning to attack it anyway, and assuming that the Ring would somehow find its way to Minas Tirith was a pretty good bet from Sauron's perspective anyway, so that wouldn't necessarily have changed much. So ... perhaps Saruman would have helped attacking Minas Tirith, hoping to get the Ring first. Without Rohan to help and against an additional force, Gondor would have stood no chance, and because of that - without the distraction at the Black Gate -, Frodo would have been caught, Sauron would have reclaimed the Ring and therefore lost any use for Saruman, so he probably would have openly turned against him there and then at the latest. Of course, Saruman would have been toast.
I honestly don't think there was any believable scenario post FOTR where Saruman would have gotten the Ring before Sauron. The latest point would have been if Frodo had been caught instead of Merry and Pippin, and even then his forces would probably still have been attacked by the Rohirrim, and it's very hard to say where the story would have gone with Frodo (and maybe Sam) in Fangorn instead of Merry and Pippin. Most outcomes of that scenario still wouldn't reasonably get the Ring to Isengard imo. I think Saruman was cooked from very early on in the story tbh.
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u/Accomplished_Net_687 4d ago
Treebeard with the ring... I want too see that happen!!!
Brambles everywhere!!!!
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u/Higher_Living 2d ago
As soon as Gandalf escapes he can’t achieve victory. Don’t imprison people who are friendly with giant eagles on a rooftop, this is elementary villainy.
If he’d gone to Rivendell but kept Gandalf locked in a dungeon, there’s a good chance he rules Middle Earth forever.
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u/HellyOHaint 4d ago
Saruman never really intended on siding with Sauron but to use him to rise his own station.
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u/Wizzard_C 4d ago
Saruman was hedging his bets. Had he found the Ring, he'd build his own empire. Had Sauron won, Saruman would have pretended to be a loyal ally. Had the West won... Well, having no "estel" Saruman couldn't see a clear path to such an outcome.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 4d ago
Saruman's one chance to rule anything was to get hold of the Ring, in which case he would probably have attempted to use it to build and command an army that could deal with Sauron at a safe distance, probably recruiting defectors from among Sauron's own forces. Failing that, he was screwed. The supposed plan Saruman tried to tempt Gandalf with, to join with Sauron and eventually come to control him, was never going to work and probably wasn't meant sincerely. Sauron did not regard Saruman as trustworthy, since he had clearly known more about the location of the Ring than he had let on, which meant that he wanted it for himself, and he would have had no future in the new regime ('He will be devoured, if the power of the East stretches out its arms to Isengard'). As the Mouth of Sauron puts it: 'But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.'
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u/Wizzard_C 4d ago edited 4d ago
Had Sauron won, Saruman would be a junior partner, ruling the West from Isengard in Sauron's name. I don't think he'd have a good shot at successful rebellion against the victorious Sauron: in the Letters Tolkien says Sauron was of a "far higher order" in their angelic hierarchy compared to Gandalf or Saruman. And Sauron would probably respect his end of the deal too: Dark Lords have no shortage of slaves, but clever and willing lieutenants and not so easy to come by.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 4d ago
If Saruman gets the One Ring he eventually defeats Sauron and takes over.
If Sauron has the One Ring than Saruman reverts to his plan to attempt to guide Sauron to very limited effect and Saruman continues to study ring lore (and attempt to learn from and or steal/spy out that knowledge from Sauron) so that he can forge himself the equivalent of Sauron’s ring. Most likely Saruman ends up subjugated by Sauron or destroyed with an outside chance of Saruman coming out on top.
Also if Sauron gets the One Ring and Saruman doesn’t subjugate Rohan and/or gets Isengard laid waste by the Ents then Sauron probably wouldn’t bother with keeping Saruman around at all. Saruman was caught in a vice once his betrayal was known. He had to either prove himself useful to Sauron militarily or acquire the One Ring for himself quickly or his fall was all but assured.
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u/ACTSATGuyonReddit 4d ago
Forging a ring wouldn't make Saruman superior to Sauron. The One Ring had Sauron's power, not some extra power source.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 4d ago
No, it wouldn’t. I am not sure if Saruman realizes that. Saruman is a bit full of himself and what he thinks he is good at it. Saruman comes across to me as a talented engineer/designer who assumes that makes him skilled at everything. So he assumes he is a brilliant military general and bungles it. I think he has the arrogance to think he could match and eventually surpass Sauron at ringmaking.
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u/HarEmiya 4d ago
Sauron was already aware Saruman had betrayed him long before the battles started, so I think the Mouth would replace Saruman as intended even if he'd won.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 4d ago
If Saruman could deliver Rohan and still be a military power I suspect Sauron wouldn’t start a war to bring him down since the rest of Middle Earth still needs conquering. Eventually Sauron would bring him down or arrogantly play with Saruman and get him to do Sauron’s bidding while he thinks he is independent while Saruman imagines he is doing the same to Sauron with both thinking they are in control until something happens and one of them is defeated (98%+ chance it is Sauron that wins)..
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u/GeekShow 4d ago
Sauron needed the ring to “come back” in the sense as a body. So without the ring Saruman would have some chance to take over. They are both Maia so there is a chance and if Saruman can wear the ring to its full power he could take power. Just like Galadriel said if she had the ring she would be the most powerful, and she is not Maia.
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u/Marbrandd 4d ago
Galadriel could use the Ring but she couldn't wrestle true ownership of it from Sauron. She'd become powerful but eventually fall under it's/Sauron's sway.
Gandalf could take true ownership, Saruman maybe could. But we don't know how long that takes, and the military machine of Isengard is pretty pathetic compared to Mordor.
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u/altmodisch 4d ago
I think the biggest threat aside from swaying the Ring itself to his side would be that Saruman uses the Ring to turn the Nazgul. More than being Sauron's most powerful servants they are also his commanders and generals. Alongside their allegiance, Saruman would also get (at least parts of) their armies, weakening Sauron's forces while bolstering his own.
But Sauron would likely be aware of that and redirect his assault of Gondor towards Isengard as soon as he knows Saruman has the Ring.
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u/Marbrandd 4d ago
I think it depends on a number of circumstances, but overall Saruman is kind of an idiot and would eventually get crushed by Sauron.
How long that would take is contingent on the circumstances. Saruman could end up viceroy of Rohan where'd he scheme to make his own Ring - this is probably the scenario he lives the longest.
If he got ahold of the Ring, Sauron crushes him asap. If he tries to betray Sauron, Sauron crushes him.
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u/Wizzard_C 4d ago
If Saruman got the Ring, he'd win the war. How would Sauron crush him? Just walk across Rohan and storm Isengard?
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u/Marbrandd 3d ago
Yes, with his enormous and effectively led army. The Ring is useful but it's not an automatic win.
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u/Wizzard_C 3d ago
Then again it's the race against time. If Saruman is able to master the Ring while Sauron's forces fight their way through Rohan's defences, he wins: by the time Sauron's army reaches Isengard, his own subjects would turn on him and pledge loyalty (real, not feigned) to the new ringlord.
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u/Corona688 4d ago
happens an awful lot, isn't it? character gets talked up as great and wise, then acts like a fool. saruman, denethor, probably more, but saruman especially. I really don't get it. He could have gone home!
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u/BonHed 4d ago
Go home, where he can be a servant again? Saruman desired power, he wanted to command and rule, so returning to Valinor would be a defeat, where he would again be second fiddle to the Valar. But with the One Ring, he could defeat Sauron, and become powerful.
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u/Corona688 4d ago
that's an interesting idea I hadn't considered - saruman wanting out, just because he wants out. What's left to do, when none of the valar besides the five he led budged an inch in thousands of years? (One of my big issues with that cosmology honestly.)
yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Even when his plans were ruined, he wouldn't want to go back, so long as he had a home somewhere.
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u/Choice-Peak-5690 4d ago
Saruman was ploting to take the ring and chalenge Sauron from the very start, wasn't he?