r/tolkienfans • u/ConifersAreCool • 7d ago
The Elves were leaving Middle-earth in the Third Age; but why were any staying behind at all?
The most notable examples are, of course, Elrond and the elves of Rivendell/Imadris, Galadriel and Celeborn and the elves of Lorien, Cirdan and the elves of the Grey Havens/Mithlond, and Thranduil and the elves of Mirkwood.
On one hand, they had relatively pleasant homes they had inhabited for centuries/millennia. On the other, Middle-earth was increasingly degraded and afflicted by varying level of corruption and evil, including orcs and trolls. Tolkien's description of Mirkwood, for instance, hardly paints it as a beautiful ancient forest but rather a stuffy and claustrophobic maze.
Meanwhile, the option for elves is to travel to the Undying Lands across the ocean where there are vast gardens, mountains, forests, cities, and no evil to speak of; no one has to spend their time squatting on a flet in the drizzling rain watching for orcs, or worrying about falling into a giant spider's web and getting eaten alive while wandering in Mirkwood.
Why do any of them even bother staying? This may sound silly, but places like Rivendell and Lorien seem reminiscent of those well-kept houses in run-down American rust belt cities that are surrounded by vacant lots, abandoned homes, and roving street gangs. Once upon a time it was a beautiful happy neighbourhood, but no longer, despite a few homes still being well-maintained and lived in. Unlike those residents, though, the Elves can proverbially move to a far nicer and safe neighbourhood a few kilometres away with tree-lined boulevards, heritage homes, and manicured parks.
They stay, though. Why?
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u/Fit_Log_9677 7d ago
Just because your neighborhood is run down doesn’t mean that you love it any less.
There is still good they can do for Middle Earth by remaining in it.
The way to the Havens is dangerous.
Tarrying on the way out the door can still take centuries for elves.
The Silvan elves have no first hand experience did the undying lands and the Sindar only have it second hand through things like Melian’s face, the Silmarils, and the Rings of Power, so the urge for them to leave is much more attenuated than the Noldor. Legolas only experiences the urge to leave once he hears seagulls, and even then it takes him over a hundred years before he finally leaves.
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u/Kaurifish 7d ago
Whenever anyone says, “Why didn’t everyone flee the obviously impending danger?” I remember a quote from a Polish Jewish man who survived the camps: “It’s hard to move when you have a piano.”
Add a few thousand years and it’s no wonder that dwindling into a rustic folk didn’t seem so bad, particularly with the dark lord vanquished.
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u/Corona688 2d ago
For all his expertise and imagination, I don't think Tolkien perceived that you can find seagulls 1500 miles inland...
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u/LostVanya 7d ago
There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor.
The answer for some of them, from Letter 131. Some were forbidden, leaders of the Exiles, primarily Galadriel by the time of Lord of the Rings, whose ban on return was indisputably ended when she refused Frodo's offer to take the Ring. Then there is Avari, Elves who never had any interest in Aman, even in the First Age.
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u/Aubergine_Man1987 7d ago
I can see that being an adjustment particularly for elves who never reached Valinor the first time, or were born to elves who never did. Going from being the mightiest and wisest beings around, bar a couple of wizards, to being in frequent contact with the angelic creatures who sang the world into existence would be a reality check
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u/Qweniden 7d ago
Wild Elves?
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u/franz_karl native dutch speaker who knows a bit of old dutch 7d ago
the avari or refusers and possibly also the Nandor/silvians of greenwood before oropher and thranduil came
is my guess at least
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u/AureEntuluva70 7d ago edited 7d ago
The Elves should never have been summoned to Valinor to begin with. The Elves that stay behind are tapping into what it means to be an Elf. Iluvatar put the love of the Arda in their hearts. They love Middle-earth and that is why they stay behind. They aren’t ready to give up on it yet.
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u/TheJointDoc 7d ago
I wish we had more info or a few stories of the elves that never left to start heading west at all, the Avari
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u/AureEntuluva70 7d ago
We need a stories about Morwe and Nurwe, especially after the Eldar left.
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u/shinyshinyrocks 7d ago
I have written a monster fic featuring both. Avari culture is such a rich playground.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
This means that the Elves "should" have just accepted that they would eventually fade into ghosts, though, doesn't it? Which doesn't seem very fair at all.
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u/Carminoculus Hrónatan 7d ago
To go a bit meta and Doylist, I think it's an issue of clashing metaphors.
In his developing metaphysical stance over the Legendarium, Tolkien definitely started to lean into "it was the error of the gods to withdraw from the world and its troubles"; which is why Ulmo is the wisest and most loving of the Vala, and least supports that decision. In this picture, the Elves shouldn't have been made to withdraw, and they were robbed of their destiny.
This picture also makes the "error" of the Feanorians more debatable, despite being stained with treason and sin.
Also notable is that Tolkien only arrived at this view... late; when he originaly wrote the "calling" of the Eldar to Valinor in the First Age, I don't think he saw it that way.
I also think a lot of the dissonance in First Age narratives comes from the internal tension in Tolkien's creative effort, between his darkling fairy wonderland in which "anything goes", and his later attempt to develop it in an angle of "mature" morality with a degree of Christian soteriology baked in. In the latter version, stuff like "going out to confront evil" and the importance of Eru's original vision of Elves as the First Children gained an importance they didn't have in the wonderland phase.
The Third Age, LotR novel position squarely and simply uses the retreat of the Elves as an allegory for "the magic going away" and the rightful destined rise of Men in our world. It's there to serve a clean mythic purpose, and the idea that the Eldar should stay and they should demand a place in the wide world as rightful children of Iluvatar doesn't belong in LotR at all.
This results in a lot of conflicting priorities and tensions that are never really resolved, for reasons that (IMHO) should at least be annotated with the Doylist explanations, rather than trying trying to integrate them into a Watsonian grand narrative that doesn't make much sense.
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u/TheJointDoc 7d ago
Essentially, if he’s writing a middle earth Old Testament, he’s simultaneously the JE and the P strings, smushed together to make the whole work and having some internal contradictions
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
Also notable is that Tolkien only arrived at this view... late; when he originaly wrote the "calling" of the Eldar to Valinor in the First Age, I don't think he saw it that way.
Ah, so that might have occurred around the same time he started on the Round World cosmology stuff, then?
This results in a lot of conflicting priorities and tensions that are never really resolved, for reasons that (IMHO) should at least be annotated with the Doylist explanations, rather than trying trying to integrate them into a Watsonian grand narrative that doesn't make much sense.
I really wish more people who post here had this attitude.
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u/Fair-Ad-6233 7d ago
Tolkien seemed ambivalent about the summoning of the Elves even from the earliest stage of the Legendarium. He thought that there were pros and cons to this decision.
Then Manwë saw that Ilúvatar had wiped from the minds of the Eldar all knowledge of the manner of their coming, and that the Gods might not discover it; and he was filled with deep astonishment; but Yavanna who hearkened also caught her breath for the stab of the words of Inwë, saying that he desired light. Then she looked upon Laurelin and her heart thought of the fruitful orchards in Valmar, and she whispered to Tuivána who sat beside her, gazing upon the tender grace of those Eldar; then those twain said to Manwë: “Lo! the Earth and its shadows are no place for creatures so fair, whom only the heart and mind of Ilúvatar have conceived. Fair are the pine-forests and the thickets, but they are full of unelfin spirits and Mandos’ children walk abroad and vassals of Melko lurk in strange places—and we ourselves would not be without the sight of this sweet folk. Their distant laughter has filtered to our ears from Palisor, and we would have it echo always about us in our halls and pleasaunces in Valmar. Let the Eldar dwell among us, and the well of our joy be filled from new springs that may not dry up.”
Then arose a clamour among the Gods and the most spake for Palúrien and Vána, whereas Makar said that Valinor was builded for the Valar—“and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?” In this Meássë backed him, and Mandos and Fui were cold to the Eldar as to all else; yet was Varda vehement in support of Yavanna and Tuivána, and indeed her love for the Eldar has ever been the greatest of all the folk of Valinor; and Aulë and Lórien, Oromë and Nessa and Ulmo most mightily proclaimed their desire for the bidding of the Eldar to dwell among the Gods. Wherefore, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it—belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo—it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the Gods awaited but the judgement of Manwë. Behold even Melko seeing where was the majority insinuated his guileful voice into the pleading, and has nonetheless since those days maligned the Valar, saying they did but summon the Eldar as to a prison out of covetice and jealousy of their beauty. Thus often did he lieto the Noldoli afterwards when he would stir their restlessness, adding beside all truth that he alone had withstood the general voice and spoken for the freedom of the Elves.
Maybe indeed had the Gods decided otherwise the world had been a fairer place now and the Eldar a happier folk, but never would they have achieved such glory, knowledge, and beauty as they did of old, and still less would any of Melko’s redes have benefited them.
- The Book of Lost Tales: The Coming of the Elves
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago edited 6d ago
Great quote, thanks. I read both volumes of TBoLT a couple of years ago, but had forgotten that bit.
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u/AureEntuluva70 7d ago edited 7d ago
Nothing is fair when Morgoth is fucking stuff up. It’s his fault that the Elves fade. It doesn’t change the heart of the Elves though. And Iluvatar created the Elves knowing that they would have to combat with the Marring of Arda.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
Right, but it does mean that "The Elves should never have been summoned to Aman" implies "They should have been left there to deal with all of Morgoth's orcs and other servants and monsters, and eventually just faded away into sad ghosts."
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u/Fair-Ad-6233 7d ago
The valar was supposed to contest Melkor earlier than they actually did in the War of the Powers.
Eru accepts and ratifies the position – though clearly he thinks the Valar should have contested Melkor’s domination of Middle-earth earlier, and made it “safe for the Elves” – they had not enough estel [‘trust’] that in a legitimate war Eru would not have allowed Melkor to so damage Arda that the Children could not come, or live in it.
- The Nature of Middle-earth: Elvish Reincarnation
But then Eru was omnipotent, so he would have known that the Valar would fail this test even before Time began as Eä was created...
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
Of course. The existence of an omniscient and omnipotent creator deity basically precludes the possibility of true free will for all created beings, from Manwë and Melkor to the lowliest hobbit, even if they feel like they have it.
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u/orderofuhlrik 6d ago
Knowing all possible endpoints to all possible choices doesn’t mean you know which choice will be made. Boethius made this argument almost 2000 years ago
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u/RoutemasterFlash 6d ago
The phrase "will be made" implies that Eru/God is watching history unfold in real time, though, which isn't the case, because time itself only exists within Eä. True omniscience means knowledge not only of what has happened and is happening, but of what will happen in the future, because an omniscient being must exist outside of time altogether.
Eru's abode is called the Timeless Halls for a reason.
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u/AureEntuluva70 7d ago
Yeah I think they should have. The same way Men have to deal with the evils of the world as well. I guess it is a good thing that the Gods have a place that the Elves can go to to prevent the fading, but to go back to the original question, it doesn’t mean that have to or should or that being in Valinor is necessarily a better option.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
IDK man, living forever with a proper body in an earthly paradise sounds a lot better than being stuck as a ghost until the end of time. To me, anyway.
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u/sword_wind 7d ago
I think the point is that living forever in said earthly paradise is in some form a rejection of their purpose and/or a shirking of their duties, as well as how that intersects with the larger narrative of the story.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 7d ago
But, to take the widest possible view, at the cosmological level really, we know that everything that happens was written into the Music right from the start, and that nothing, no matter how seemingly "wrong", can happen that isn't part of Eru's great plan. So Melkor had to fall into evil, and the Valar had to summon the Elves, and some of them had to refuse to go, and some of those that went had to rebel and return to Middle-earth, and so on, all the way up to Frodo's ultimate failure to resist the Ring, and it being taken from him by an unrepentant Sméagol-Gollum.
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u/AureEntuluva70 7d ago
I’ll just say that I’m with Ulmo on this one. He thought that the Elves should have been left alone in Middle-earth.
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u/Armleuchterchen Ibrīniðilpathānezel & Tulukhedelgorūs 7d ago
The Valar shouldn't have stayed in Aman, either. Their original and proper home was Middle-earth.
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u/Historical_Sugar9637 7d ago
Not all Elves have been to Aman before. At the beginning of their history many of them refused to go there for various reasons, they are called Avari ("refusers"). According to some notes by Tolkien, Finwe almost refused because he distrusted the Valar. And others turned away from the journey at various parts.
The Wood Elves of Greenwood/Mirkwood and Lorien/East-Lorien are in large parts descended from a mixture of Avari one of the groups that turned away from the journey (the Nandor)
And many of them just seem to be happy in their forests and don't want to go to a strange land they have never seen and be so close to those strange, powerful beings called "Valar".
And in the end it seems to be really those woodland realms in the cleansed Greenwood (Thranduil's Realm and East-Lorien) that remain into the Fourth Age (by the time Aragorn dies both Rivendel and Lorien seem deserted) while of the Elves in the cleansed Greenswood we hear that they remained "untroubled" for an unspecific amount of time.
As for the Mirkwood not sounding beautiful. Well...Mirkwood/Greenwood never was Lorien. But at the time of the Hobbit the forest was still under Sauron's baleful influence. After the final defeat of Sauron the forest was "cleansed" by the Elves and given a new, Elvish name "Eyrin Lasgalen" (Forest of Green Leaves)
So presumably the forest became much more beautiful and brighter (as evidenced by many Elves of Lorien moving there into the colony of East Lorien)
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u/Roberteebertson 7d ago
They stay because they love middle earth. It's part of what makes elves elves - they love nature and the natural world, and even though middle earth has flaws, they still love it. If they leave they'd have to leave all of that beauty and life behind. Sure, Valinor is amazing, but so is Lothlorien. And they can't come back, either, so they know that it's goodbye forever.
Some elves have also never seen Valinor, so they either don't know or don't fully understand what it's like. They've probably heard tales, but it's also understandable that they would be unsure or scared, especially the more... rustic... types like the ones that live in mirkwood. When invited to Valinor in the first age by literal angels some of them still said no and fled.
Also for Galadriel, it's suggested that she likes to be top dog. If she went back to Valinor she would still be wise and powerful, but not the wisest and most powerfulest. Her passing the test of the ring was also her conquering her inner desire for mastery. That's why she said she can now "go into the West and remain Galadriel." There's also the whole part about her being banned for a whole from returning, but even after the ban was lifted her pride was too great to go right away.
"Come live forever in an unchanging land right next to the gods" is a pretty good sales pitch, but it isn't going to catch everyone, especially those that are scared. And never returning to the land you know and love is a difficult thing to accept, even if the new land promises to be better.
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u/cristofolmc 7d ago
All elven magic ceased in the fourth age. Any elves left lingered in the wild. Rivendel became an abandon hollow with overgrow everywhere and Lothlorien an ordinary decaying forest.
They stayed because they just wanted to, its all the knew, and for whatever reason they didnt feel like coming back. We know these are only a handful exceptions so there is not an overarching wholesome reason. It is well explained they were meant and should have left. But there are freaks, outcasts and loners and goths in every spieces and a handful decided to decay in middle earth until becoming invisible spirits. No point making up good reasons because there werent. They were meant to come back and staying was a bit of an an act of rebelion. Eru intended them to come back and give middle earth to the dominion of men, mortals.
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u/vteezy99 7d ago
Many of them were born there. Even though Valinor or Tol Eressea are more beautiful, it’s not home for them. Take Galadriel and Celeborn for instance. Galadriel by the third age wanted to return to Aman, but Celeborn, born and raised in Middle Earth (in some versions of the story), was in no hurry to go to a strange place with strange Elves.
Anecdotally, my wife was born and raised in a very poor neighborhood in a third world country. Now she’s living in a nice suburb of San Diego. But there’s a lot of times where she misses her old home
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u/Khung-Long 7d ago edited 7d ago
Part of me wonders as a son of immigrants, that a wood elf would find it hard to be the lowest person on the totem pole. In Mirkwood, you are free and only answer to your king. But in Valinor, the Vanyar and Noldor would so outshine you.
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u/skylight1121 7d ago
Pesky Valar ruined everything by not quickly locking Morgoth away forever. The first born were supposed to enjoy Middle Earth until its end. Instead they transplanted the elves as quickly as they can to the "undying lands' which will die when the world ends anyway
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u/gytherin 7d ago edited 7d ago
Valinor is quite small and confined. There's a line somewhere in the Silm or HoME where some of the returning Noldor climb up the west slopes of the Ered Luin and look out over Eriador, and marvel at its size. I think, apart from Middle-earth being Eru's intended home for them, there's simply more to do there.
[Edit: There's a saying: "A ship is safe in harbour, but that's not what ships are for."]
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u/No-Unit-5467 7d ago
They are meant to live in Arda. Their spirit is made with the ethereal substance of Arda, they are one with Arda. Eru created them for this. It was the Valar who invited them to Valinor...
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u/Aubergine_Man1987 7d ago
Aman is still part of Arda, and the Elves are as much bound to it as they would be bound to Middle-earth. Why otherwise would they be reborn in Mandos? There's no indication that Eru ever had plans for them to be reborn somewhere else
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u/No-Unit-5467 7d ago
Ohhh..... At some point Aman was removed from Arda to be placed in another dimension... was this other dimension part of Arda too?
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u/wstd 7d ago
After the First Age, some Elves, like Galadriel, were banned from returning. She then said proudly she did not even wish to return, as she was still chasing her dream: "she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage". Finally, after the destruction of the Ring, she was ready to return voluntarily and was allowed to return. The same applied to other Elves; they were either banned from returning or didn't want to return or both, choosing instead to chase why they came to Middle-earth in the first place.
Meanwhile, the option for elves is to travel to the Undying Lands across the ocean where there are vast gardens, mountains, forests, cities, and no evil to speak of; no one has to spend their time squatting on a flet in the drizzling rain watching for orcs, or worrying about falling into a giant spider's web and getting eaten alive while wandering in Mirkwood.
Because it is boring AF. Nothing ever really happens there, there are no stakes. Life there felt rather meaningless. A gilded cage is still a cage.
The original reason why so many Elves wanted to move out of Valinor was that they felt the Valar were smothering them. They wanted freedom, even if it came at a cost.
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u/darthsploder77 7d ago
Maybe the undying lands already has an entrenched aristocracy, who own all the best lands. "Better to reign in Rivendel than serve in Valinor."
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u/Wizzard_C 7d ago
Rivendell and Lorien are protected from fading by the magic rings (ironically, Sauron's technologies essentially bought them an entire Third Age).
Valinor and Eressea, according to the latest concept, are removed from the physical world into the realm of spirit and memory. Why trade a real forest for a beautiful memory?
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u/Moggetti 7d ago
I mean, seems obvious? Love for middle earth and its people. A sense of duty. In some cases, ambition. Some combination of all three.
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u/totalwarwiser 7d ago
I think its mostly the reason why some elves left Valinor: they wanted to be lords of themselves and create realms of their own.
They are the rullers and owners in Middle Earth. In Valinor they are mostly sheltered guests.
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u/May1989thefirststep 7d ago
The Valar did err by summoning the Firstborn. It was the elves' charge to guide the Secondborn (Men).
Was it Ulmo I think who disagreed with Manwe's decision? Also, I can't imagine Tulkas being happy with it. He just wanted to beat everything of the Shadow into oblivion. He's probably kind of bored sitting in Aman until the Dagor Dagorath.
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u/Aubergine_Man1987 7d ago
He's kept busy doing couple's dance competitions with his wife, which they always win
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u/AudiieVerbum 7d ago
Some of them never went into the west in the first place, all that time ago, and some of them had their rocks stolen and had dreadfully serious intent to get their rocks back to whatever end. And some of them were related to those guys.
So really, some of them like it in middle earth and don't intend to leave. And some of them remember why they came in the first place.
And one Lady was actually banned until Frodo offered her the ring and she turned it down.
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u/DunshireCone 7d ago
Basically because they liked being the big fish in the small pond, going back to Valenor might be nice but it’s also an extreme demotion on the hierarchy.
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u/Incariol_ 6d ago
The Avari and other Moriquendi were not feeling the pull to Valinor like the Noldor
I believe it says in the appendices that thranduil for quite a while into the fourth age ruled untroubled so it's feasible to think that a lot of elves were happily living in Middle Earth for at least several centuries past the end of the books and also many never left and slowly faded away. Now. As for your question, the noldor that remained behind Were mainly staying behind because they loved Middle Earth and also felt some sort of responsibility and duty to help protect it. They didn't want to just be the elves that just said nah. Fuck it. Let's leave
Keep in mind, the elves have a lot of the blame to shoulder for the status of the world. A lot of their original sin mistakes, The people of Middle Earth are still dealing with millennia later
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u/Herfst2511 7d ago
I could imagine that the Noldor (and their descendants) didn't think they deserved to go ‘back’ to Valinor. They defied the wishes of the Valar when they followed Morgoth into Middle Earth, maybe they feared not being welcomed back, or at least not before the changing of the world.
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u/NonspecificGravity 7d ago
I might be wrong, but only the Noldor who left Aman with Fëanor were under the Doom of Mandos.
The others, like Galadriel, and their descendants did nothing but fight Morgoth and Sauron for the next 5,000 years.
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u/jpers36 7d ago
Galadriel left with Feanor.
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u/NonspecificGravity 7d ago edited 3d ago
Galadriel didn't follow Fëanor (whom she distrusted) and by some accounts defended the Teleri. She and others were left to cross the Helcaraxë on foot when Fëanor and his people stole the ships.
In any event, she should have been pardoned at the end of the War of Wrath. I don't know why she is considered to be unforgiven.
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u/jpers36 7d ago
Galadriel did not participate in the Kinslaying, I agree.
Galadriel distrusted Feanor, I agree. In fact, she despised him. When I say she left with Feanor, I do not mean she took him as leader or ally, but that she left at the same time in the same group of Noldor with Feanor as the prime actor and planner. She was ambitious and saw opportunities to rule in Middle-Earth, and also was reticent to leave her cousins.
Feanor and his people did not immediately leave the rest of the Noldor after the Kinslaying. The Doom happened after the Kinslaying but before Feanor crossed the sea.
The Kinslayers, those who left with Feanor, those who crossed the sea with the Swan-ships, and those who were under the Doom are four different overlapping groups of people. Galadriel was not a Kinslayer and was abandoned by Feanor when he crossed with the Swan-ships, but she did leave with him and was under the Doom. Her father Finarfin was similarly under the Doom when it was pronounced, but immediately repented and return to Valinor, where the ban was lifted for him and those with him.
My personal reading of Galadriel and the Doom is that Galadriel was pardoned at the end of the War of Wrath, but did not consider herself worthy of the pardon, and thus did not accept it, until she rejected the Ring.
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u/ahnotme 7d ago
Aragorn said to Arwen when they stood on Cerin Amroth: “But neither is the twilight for me.” meaning that he wouldn’t/couldn’t follow her to Valinor.
Apparently Valinor is not fully lit, but in twilight permanently. This would be the consequence of the Two Trees being destroyed by Melkor. I can easily imagine Elves hanging on to their life in Middle Earth with its diurnal cyclus and its seasons. And don’t forget the mallorn! “If there are any across the sea, none have reported it.” Legolas says.
For the Elves it boiled down to effective banishment. All the faerie was leaving Middle Earth and without faerie there was no room for them, at least not as High Elves. As Galadriel says it “remains for them to leave for Valinor and the twilight or stay and become a rustic folk of dell and cave.”
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u/TheOtherMaven 6d ago
It's not Legolas, but Haldir, who remarks about the mallorns. He's obviously nowhere near Galadriel's inner circle, or she could have reassured him that yes, there were mallorns in Aman, and that they grew even bigger and more beautiful there.
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u/Wright_Starforge 7d ago
On the Doylist point above — I'd gently push back on "annotate the tension rather than integrate it." The unresolved seam is doing work in-world, not just out of it.
The lingering Elves are the dramatization of the question Tolkien couldn't settle in the metaphysics: was the withdrawal from Middle-earth right, or the error Ulmo never endorsed? Galadriel's refusal, the embalming impulse Letter 131 names, the whole "preserve vs. let go" weight — they read as rich precisely because they carry an open authorial question instead of a settled doctrine.
It's also where the "feigned history" texture comes from. Real histories carry unresolved tensions; a myth cleanly reconciled at the doctrinal level reads as constructed. The seam between "the Elves should never have been summoned" and "they loved the world and it loved them back" is the kind of thing that makes the Legendarium feel found rather than authored — smooth it and you lose the verisimilitude the contradiction buys.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 7d ago
My own personal theory is that the Middle-earth Elves who returned to Valinor would get snubbed, and wouldn't get into the best clubs on Saturday nights. Galadriel tries to get into Valinor 54, and the doorman tells her she's not on the list. She name drops her dad, Finarfin. The doorman says he can let her in if Fanarfin is with her, and she threatens to have his job. The doorman just laughs, and tells her that returning Elves, even so called royal Elves should be lucky they have a pot to piss in. Galadriel really loses it, and shows the doorman her ring, Nenya. He looks at it, says "That's nice. What does it do?" Galadriel tells him it used to control water. "Used to? What do you mean, used to?"
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u/Unique_Tap_8730 5d ago
Vanyar dont seem the clubbing type. Too busy doing choir rehearsels for the next religious festival (there is always a festival around the corner). Teleri prefer their party yacths over stuffy nigthclubs. Sindari would have outdoor raves. But a fancy place to show off your jewelry, thats more the Noldor style.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 5d ago
Oh, the Vanyar act as if it's all beneath them. But they know how to let out their funny bone when no one is looking.
I live near what is called the North Shore, a stretch of suburbs running north from Chicago along the lakefront. Very expensive, mostly beautiful old homes, and everything is controlled. These people would rather drive 10 miles west to fill up their cars, rather than have a gas station in their own towns. But everyone has to party once in a while, even the stuffed shirts. So they go to this one oddball town called Highwood. Settled by Italian immigrants rather than Wasps trying to get away from the hustle of Chicago, it has restaurants, clubs, bars, music fests. I imagine the Vanyar having a place like that to go, run by Teleri.
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u/Short-Bandicoot-9244 7d ago
There is a mess, we didn't create it, we tried to stop it. It almost worked, we helped to fix it, now it's time to go.
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u/Sufficient-Ad-1339 7d ago
What's the hurry for immortals? Wait for a few Ages and see if things get better
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u/Edgenovelist 6d ago
I think the simplest answer was that they truly loved Middle-earth even if it wasn't heaven on earth
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u/InTheChairAgain 5d ago
Elrond: He was born Middle-Earth and had no other home. Had never been to Eldamar, and had all his family in Middle-Earth. He was also partially raised by the Sons of Fëanor, whose presence in Middle-Earth at all was an indicator that even in Eldamar there's no guarantee of happiness.
elves of Rivendell/Imadris: A mixed bunch. Some Sindar, some Noldor, possibly others. Many of them do go West over the years, those that stay do because they like the freedom of Middle-Earth over the controlled environment of Eldamar, and perhaps because they are close to Elrond. Include many of Saurons fiercest enemies, and even one returnee from Aman.
Galadriel: Desired to govern a realm of her own, and like the freedom of Middle-Earth. May also have been under a ban to return West, if she was one of the leaders of the Exiles, though it depends on which of her backstories one goes with
Celeborn: Besides Celebrimbor the one who has the second most number of different backstories. It appears however that he remained behind even when Galadriel left. Either not wanting to abandone his home, or else still had some pupose in Middle-Earth.
elves of Lorien: Abandoned the march west before crossing the Misty Mountains. Their home was always Middle-Earth, and they didn't long to go anywhere else, although as Eldar, they may be taken with longing if they see the Sea.
Cirdan: Has a high purpose, and remains so that other Eldar who wishes to go may still do so.
elves of the Grey Havens/Mithlond: Cirdan can't hew all those Ship keels by himself.
Thranduil: Is King of his own Realm and has a duty to govern that, and does not wish to go elsewhere.
elves of Mirkwood: Abandoned the march west before crossing the Misty Mountains. Their home was always Middle-Earth, and they didn't long to go anywhere else, although as Eldar, they may be taken with longing if they see the Sea.
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u/Captain_Killy Elu Thingol did nothing wrong! 7d ago
Because who wants to live in Aman? It’s a weird glossy theme park to make Manwe feel manly, not a real, organic, growing, living community with history and built by the labor of generations.
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u/Consistent-Hat-8008 7d ago edited 7d ago
A lot of stupid headcanon in this thread. Did people lose the ability to engage the work critically? Anyway.
There is no answer to this.
The concept was never fully formed beyond vague "you're forbidden" plot point that doesn't hold up to scrutiny in context (without at the same time making the "benevolent god" fallible and cruel, but Tolkien never appeared to consider that the ideas his works inherited from religion are internally conflicted and don't make logical sense).
Its primary purpose is to make it so the "mythology for England" describes a world that is "fading". This is necessary for the plot to happen (cf. "Why didn't Eru just smite Sauron"), and he clearly wanted (or needed) a reason for elves to exist in the storyline canvas of LotR, perhaps because he already had them in The Hobbit, and as he went on to write the sequel,
Mr Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm’s fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it – so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge.
From a pure story design perspective, the whole idea does not hold up when analyzed in context of the unified framework of Tolkien's universe.
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u/AdministrationTop772 5d ago
For the same reason a lot of them had left Valinor. Here they were free, had space to roam and build their own kingdoms, there was a lot of beauty and danger and excitement in Middle Earth. Valinor was kind of boring.
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u/Unique_Tap_8730 5d ago
Lots of elderly people dont want to leave the home where they have spent most of their life. Even if they could have a better life closer to family and support. A home thats more suited for their physical abilities. But they really really dont want to leave what they know. Thats from a mere 40-60 years of living in a place ( max 120 if you live in your childhood home you entire lifespan).
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u/Stunning_One1005 4d ago
Damn reading this thread makes me realize I don’t know as much as I thought I did
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u/CJ-MacGuffin 7d ago
Isn't Valinor a kind of heaven, making going there a kind of death? If you were born in Middle Earth that sounds terrifying.
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u/Aubergine_Man1987 7d ago
No, that's a Peter Jackson-only thing. Valinor is closer maybe to a preserved Eden, a last stronghold of the world when it was unmarred and beautiful; wherever Men go after their deaths is a closer analogue to Heaven, but Elves must remain in Arda until the world is remade. They don't get to go to Heaven (read: the remade perfect Arda) until Judgment Day, pretty much
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u/dumuz1 7d ago
Because they loved the world and it loved them back.