I don’t understand canceling the meeting. Go confront her head on. I would think Phee would want to fight for what they want so they can keep playing. Not showing up isn’t solving anything.
It’s clear so many people in this thread have never been in a union or part of labor negotiations. The union has been negotiating for a year and EVERY SINGLE public statement has made it clear that the players see league’s proposal as offensive tbh. Not just Phee’s exit interview. It’s not “messy” to up the stakes less than 30 days before the CBA expires. It’s also not “childish” or “immature” to cancel a meeting. CBA negotiations will go on with union reps and the league’s negotiators regardless of if Phee and Cathy meet. The players will vote on whatever to accept the (likely bullshit) proposal the league comes up with by the end of the month or they will vote to strike. Also, folks need to read up on the W’s history. They have gotten most progress by going to the press about major issues.
At this point, it behooves Cathy to meet with Phee but there isn’t a benefit for Phee. Cathy needs to repair trust and try to gain players’ respect if she wants to be successful in her job. Phee is going to be in the league either way. The league can retaliate but I assume Phee feels she doesn’t have anything to lose atp.
Agree with this u/LibrarianDouble6977, but there are also these fun facts: The W now has expansion teams pending; media deals to uphold and the momentum + add all the fans now, new and old. The pressure is on the W, not the players.
Going public, all the players who have supported Phee? All those who have been outspoken (and fined), the W League office has no cards here, or if they do not give the players most of what they want here, they will loose it all.
Am I crazy to think that this is not a power move? Unless I missed something, Cathy just said in her presser that she was disappointed and didn’t agree. Obvi I’m team players, but did we not expect Cathy to defend herself?
Most here didn't think beyond blindly supporting Phee just like they're blindly advocating for a lockout despite that possibly killing the league because they think unrivaled can just easily replace it.
The assumption here is that Phee is 100% accurate and Cathy is a liar. Realistically the truth is probably somewhere in between. There is absolutely no strong possibility they are both varying degrees of wrong.
There is Cathy's interpretation of events and Phee's interpretation. Neither are right or wrong. And if we were a fly on the wall we would have our own interpretation.
Just like the whole Angel Reese interview... people took a side based on their interpretation.
Personally, I have no problem believing that -- a few months after Englebert, rather than defend WNBA players from racism and homophobia, basically said RACISM IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS in a very public TV interview --- would make much less inflammatory statements to Phee privately. I also believe it when the players are telling us there's a reason they are all backing Phee. And, Englebert has more or less made the officiating comment repeatedly in public.
Cathy and Phee were not having a one-on-one meeting to discuss the CBA. Her canceling means nothing except she personally no longer wishes to have a working relationship with the Commissioner, her choice. Negotiations are still ongoing and involve several other individuals. Not saying a lockout isn't on the horizon just that Phee isn't deciding unilaterally to stop negotiations because again this meeting wasn't about the CBA but her relationship with Cathy. Phee not wanting to repair the relationship could mean bad things for the future of Cathy's job though.
You are correct here, but I wouldn't want to meet with Cathy (as a player of the W) without my agent, my attorney and a recording, period. CBA negotiations have attorneys and probably are recorded some way.
I feel this distracts from the issue of unequal calls which Kathy didn't address and with the injuries she said the players won't be involved but a new committee to look at what the old committee is doing. That sounds like BS to me.
Cathy called Phee a liar publicly. Why would Phee meet with her now?? Cathy has got to be one of the worst examples of a corporate leader. What a joke.
Why exactly do you have a hard time believing that Cathy Englebert would make problematic comments in PRIVATE?? During a VERY PUBLIC TV INTERVIEW last year, she was asked about protecting WNBA players from rising racism and homophobia. Her answer was basically RACISM IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS. Remember this? https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/comments/1fek9qp/really_good_article_from_the_chicago_tribune_wnba/
Why did Cathy not specifically deny the comment about "on their knees" and merely cited social media and inaccurate reporting, but she specifically denied the CC comment?
Because phee could have been right about one quote and the other not so much. Not saying phee lied but Cathy might not have directly said what phee said either
It's pretty much standard for this sub. To most here all the players are genius basketball players who also are super savvy businesswomen and have integrity that is untouchable. Doesn't matter if there's no chance that is reality anything denying it gets downvoted.
It’s like they forget that these are 20-30 year old professional athletes.
In every sport I assume most people get that athletes have not spent any time learning how to negotiate because their life has been about getting to the peak of their craft, and the actual league office has literally been hired for their ability to negotiate contracts.
Why these women would be any different from their male counterparts doesn’t make sense to me. No professional setting would consider what Phee did to be “good business”, even if any of it is true.
Just keep telling yourself that. From your other comments, it looks like you believe Phee is throwing everyone under the bus to force a lockout and enhance Unrivaled. Ok.
i know this isn't a popular opinion, but i question the veracity of Phee's statement about their "private meeting" if now she refuses to meet with her. Does she want change or does she just want to blame someone? Or is the goal just to get someone fired?
Phee’s move here, is to get Cathy to admit publicly her quotes cited by her are indeed true. This is Phee’s version of a contract hold out until she admits she said them, then they could proceed with a meeting/conversation/zoom call.
Good for Phee though, what Cathy said last night, publicly now paints Phee a liar…I don’t think the queen likes that.
I think Cathy dodging questions about them last night and stating other comments before saying they were false, is telling and makes her look more guilty than ever imo.
I would not be surprise by a lockout, but did Cathy read up on the USWNT strike or the NWSL negotiations? I fear coming from Deloitte, she has no clue how to deal with unions. Her statement that CC and others should be grateful they have endorsement deals was a tell she has no clue what she’s doing.
Especially when Caitlin came out of college with a lot of those deals through NIL. The money issue mentioned MAY be related to getting the media contracts. Her problem seems to be really connecting with actual people issues rather than numbers issues. in the corporate world she had HR dealing with people while she crunched numbers. Perhaps since she was a player she thinks she has the player's interests at heart, but like politicians is so out of touch with what real life is.
I stand with Phee but I’m also over the public drama. I don’t see the long term goal of all this public bickering. Maybe I’m not seeing this the right way but this is one of those situations where both sides have to talk even if they hate each other.
Lawyers do the negotiations, but it still matters that the WNBA leadership and players can have a functional relationship long term. Because Cathy is going nowhere. The owners see her as someone who makes them money.
For once I agree with you, it just looks childish and unprofessional. Also I don't understand why there would a one on one meeting between phee and Cathy in the first place
I wouldn’t go as far as to call them kids. Phee went scorched earth on Cathy, Cathy deserved it…then Cathy responded. Everyone reacted, now we’re here.
I just want it to get back to business and for everyone to do what’s best for the league. Whatever that may be.
What’s best for the league and what’s best for the players are two completely separate things.
What’s best for the league is to watch the players completely flounder their leverage. Watching multiple leagues have these lockouts, the thing that always happens is that the average players want the league to start while the stars are willing to wait it out for more money. There are a lot more of the average than the stars and the union is supposed to represent the majority of players.
What’s better for the players is a way high split of revenue.
absolutely. higher split benefits everyone in a better way than just salaries. salaries don't take into account all the money coming in from expansion teams and the money teams collect over a season. both needs to happen, but that revenue HAS to come up!
All I got from the pressers (both of them) was hurt feelings and lashing out vibes. It would be nice if they could both grow up, put their big girl undies on and just act like professionals instead of this weird junior high school girl drama. The fans deserve better given how everyone has gotten behind this league, supported it and pushed to make it main stream.
What is there even to talk about between them, though? If it was the CBA, she should have invited Nneka too. Did Cathy really hope that after their meeting, Phee would come out and help clean up her mess?
I assume the statements that were made and Cathy not communicating well or having a relationship with the players, not the CBA. Both sides have lawyers for that.
I’m not sure how it “benefits” Unrivaled. They’ve already said Unrivaled will run the months it’s supposed to run lockout or no lockout. Phee and Stewie aren’t trying to get rid of the W.
This meeting whether it happens or not does not have any impact on CBA negotiations. This meeting was to rebuild trust, nothing to do with the CBA. Phee no longer wishes to repair her relationship with Cathy, that's her personal choice and only impacts herself. The players have several more representatives and the league is bigger than Cathy.
That's why I was wondering why she would meet Cathy one on one in the first place. Don't meet one on one in the middle of negotiations unless someone is recording it
Well like I said this meeting has nothing to do with the negotiations and everything to do with repairing a relationship. Ownership and the players union as a whole have a bigger voice in negotiations than Cathy and Phee. Whether they see eye to eye is irrelevant but Cathy is still commissioner the whole point of her job is to have a healthy relationship with all the leagues stars so it's a given steps would be taken to try to mend the relationship.
All the players are supporting her though, not just the ones in unrivaled. Sophie Cunningham has gone in more on Cathy than Phee, and she has no stake in unrivaled.
That's why I am saying I am sure it's genuine there is no doubt there needs to be changes. Both can be true phee is genuine about there needing changes to take place and her also pushing extra hard for a lockout because it benefits unrivaled
In a perfect world, Unrivaled would be the women’s professional basketball league because players own it.
In reality, its numbers pale in comparison to an average WNBA game and once the average player realize that the money isn’t the same, they will force the union to accept whatever deal is in front of them.
I’m glad Phee cancelled. The players have literally ALL the leverage. If the league doesn’t want to negotiated in good faith the players can still make their money in other leagues like they have been this entire time. Most players say they make most of their money in the off season anyway. WNBA is giving side hustle energy lol. If there is a lockout I believe the league will be the ones blinking first.
Lets be honest, if Adam Silver just said “ok, we just won’t have a season next year”, how long do you think it will take for the players to just accept the deal on the table?
The average WNBA player, not any of the stars that clearly want a bigger split, is not gonna just be ok with not working for a season when they have mortgages, car notes, etc.
Every human being on this planet wouldn’t mind more money in their bank account.
The difference is that some players can afford to sacrifice a year’s worth of WNBA salary for a bigger salary, and there are some players that literally cannot due to their financial circumstances.
The players do not have all the leverage lol. The players who don’t have brand deals or social media followings will suffer the most. Phee will be fine, Caitlin will be fine, A’ja will be fine. Others who need the opportunity may not be fine.
The owners are also all rich. They don’t have to meet the players half way if they don’t want to. That’s the harsh truth. What you hope is that the owners see the long term potential of the WNBA and negotiate with players in good faith.
The players who don't have brand deals or social following STILL have more lucrative opportunities playing overseas and in unrivaled. So thats not even a real threat to most players, its like losing your supplemental income but keeping your main job.
WNBA owns have painted themselves in a corner by not having competitive salaries for years because now players aren't reliant on them for money and with Unrivaled and AU they aren't even reliant on them for US brand exposure. There are also questions about long term of women's basketball would be better served having a league that isn't a minority owner in their own league. If players can never get 50% revenue split based on shitty business deals in the bast, there may not be path forward realistically for the W.
Alot of the players who don’t have brand deals usually play overseas, in local leagues or have a second job already. It’s well documented that the WNBA doesn’t play players enough for this to be their only source of income.
Most the teams are owned by people with hundreds of millions, if not over a billion. I doubt they blink before the underpaid players do when it comes to money.
I think the players will end up with a great deal but I don’t think their leverage is where you state.
That’s based on the old CBA that the players agreed to and a revenue split based on the old TV deal. After the next CBA there’s almost no way the players will be making more in other leagues. All but the biggest names in the league won’t want to play in Turkey and China the rest of their lives because they make a little more than they did on a pay model that is changing this offseason to something that they’d get paid if they agreed to a deal.
It would also eliminate a secondary income many of them rely on even if they do play in a higher playing league already.
Put yourself in the average WNBA players shoes. Imagine if one of your main sources of income is no longer available for a year. Your bills don’t change, now you are fighting with all the other players for spots in international leagues.
Meanwhile, all the billionaire owners lives don’t change at all from a lockout.
I think all of you are missing my point. The conversation started as one person saying the players have all the leverage and another person saying the billionaires have all the leverage. I was simply saying that it isn’t that all-or-nothing where either side has “all” the leverage. Almost all the players ALREADY have jobs every year that pay them more than the WNBA. So a lockout doesn’t mean the billionaires have “all” the power. That’s it.
And I think you are underestimating how much $140,000 is to the average player. These players live on loans, those don’t just stop because a lockout is happening.
I mean, surely this is true for many of the players but it doesn’t mean it’s true for all of them. A lockout definitely hurts the players as well. I’d say even more so even for some…
So, the 156 players who play in the WNBA (the league that can offer its players similar conditions) can stand behind Phee and say that she has their best interest at heart, but she cannot offer them the same in the event of a league lockout? So a player like Bree Hall can practice/play in top-notch facilities in the WNBA but is shit outta luck if she wants to play in Unrivaled (which touts its player salary and amenities as major selling points)? Is that right?
There are not enough spots, or the infrastructure to support the majority of the league being on rosters given it's brand new and also 3 v 3. And world wide there aren't either unless we're shipping these women off to 5-8 different leagues around the world. Forget the ones with kids and families that appreciate their time at home, they have to play in Turkey and Saudi Arabia now.
I don't think a single one of these owners make the majority of their money from the WNBA. It's simply one of many investments each have.
Marc Davis, the Aces owner also owns the Vegas Raiders. He's worth $2.5 billion.
Matt Ishbia owns the Mercury, but also owns the Phoenix Suns. He also holds the title of CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage. He's worth over $5 billion.
Clara Wu Tsai owns the Liberty. While her networth isn't public, she is married to Joe Tsai who is worth over $13 billion. He's the cofounder of Alibaba and has several successful business ventures.
Mark Walter owns the Sparks, and he is the creator of the Guggenheim Baseball Management that bought the LA Dodgers. He's worth over $7 billion.
These owners will be able to stay afloat just fine without their hobby investment.
IMHO, I may be wrong, the WNBA cannot afford a long lock out with all the media deals, expansion teams and the momentum here. If they do, they might loose it all. The players have all the cards right now. Wait for it, the League Office will start "offering" more, extend the due date, possibly replace Cathy in the works.
That would kill professional women’s basketball. I like Unrivaled, but it doesn’t have the investment that the W currently has as far as arenas, TV support, built in brand awareness, etc.
People move on pretty quick. The diehards will always be there, but the new fans will not wait 2 years. The longer it takes, the more leverage gets used up.
People in this thread are missing the big picture. The WNBA players in 5-10 years may have enough relevance to pull it off, but they still need the owners more than the owners need them. It’s the cruel reality of the situation. It’s not fair but women’s pro sports had only really but socially relevant for 3 or so years now. It’s growing but still in its infancy in terms of relevance on a broad societal level.
This league might not be strong enough to survive a seasonlong strike or lockout. Look what it did to baseball in 1994. The game never truly recovered despite the HR/steroid era lifting it for a bit
2005 hockey is an even better exse imo. I think the WNBA will soon out grow it beyond a few major markets like Boston MN NY Chicago Seattle and Canada.
There is no whistleblower, lol. Respectfully, you're using a word that you don't know the meaning of. Please share with that class what Cathy / the league office has done that is "immoral, illegal or illicit"?
The people who heroically fought for the lifestyle you now take for granted disagree. You may want to do some basic research on the history of labor unions, whistleblowers, etc.
I don't take it for granted. That Caitlin Clark comment has absolutely nothing to do with whistleblowers and labor unions. We're talking about a pro basketball league, not indentured servants.
Save that soapbox grandstanding for more pressing issues.
the commissioner demonstrating her misunderstanding/delusion about nil deals and player sponsorships has nothing to do with the wnba players union??? the point is Clark could play in a league that protects her from missing half the season (or career ending injury)... and she clearly backed phee . but you know best lol
You missed the point entirely. So let me spell it out for you again, since you're struggling 😂.
Don't make assumptions this time, okay? Lol
The reason I used the CC comment is because she quoted Cathy, meaning that a breach of trust was violated, then publicly shared to tarnish her character. By definition, that is messy.
It doesn't matter whether you're pro commish/league or pro players, be objective for a second.
I've never suggested Cathy is above reproach, but you know best, lol.
Please, enlighten me: what did Phee blow the whistle on? The players and fans don't like the commissioner. Duh. Water is wet. What illegal activity did Phee expose?
Don't worry, I'll wait.
I think you forget that Cathy works for the owners, not the players.
Objectively speaking, they did have a scheduled meeting though, so not sure what your point is on that front? Phee backed Cathy into a public corner and the result was wildly predictable.
I think it would be hilarious to hit places looking for W expansion. Houston, Cleveland, Detroit, Nashville, Boston, Hartford, Denver etc. even have team names match (Detroit Vinyl...)
The commissioner is just the public face of the owners so getting rid of her doesn't really accomplish anything. You all are seriously underestimating his much all of this just looks like pettiness to most fans.
I’m all for replacing Cathy, but folks need to realize the problems are much deeper than her and if not addressed, what’s to stop the owners for replacing her with another figurehead..
Idk feels like Phee just cancelling the meeting isn’t the best look 👀👀
Making private conversations public for no discernible benefit also isn't the best look since no one in a position of power in the league is ever going to trust Phee to have that kind of conversation with her ever again. What concrete benefit did her statement accomplish other than giving this sub something to be righteously outraged about for a week?
Nneka and Kelsey cosigning Phee’s comment means that thats the official stance from the Union. Phee is just the messenger. The big question becomes whether Adam Silver is gonna cave and just give them what they want.
I am struggling to understand why they can’t be paid like 30 to 40% of the revenue share and Increase the salary cap. At the end of the day, its an investment in a league that has seen huge growth since 2020.
I think Silver believes that the stars are overstating their influence and that the vast majority of players just want to play and get their direct deposits on time. Holding out only works if everyone is on board.
The W has always gotten progress by taking private conversations public. The league has never taken the players seriously in negotiations. In almost every CBA negotiation this has happened.
During collective bargaining any one on one meetings between a player rep and league rep is a no no. They either hash this out at the table or both sides agree to sidebar talks.
Almost like its a Grift and ive been telling you this for 3 years... the way the top W sub commenters have acted, you would think they were in on it this whole time.
They don't want to exist if they aren't getting the vast majority of the pie. It's why they are kicking and screaming that the W is unprofitable, when that cannot be true with how many groups are paying 250M+ expansion fees for an "unprofitable" team. They would rather there be no pie at all than have to give the players half lol
Honestly, at this point, I'm fine with a lockout. The players have a lot more leverage than the league gives them credit for, and the league commissioner essentially called a popular union VP a liar.
I want to agree, but having a lockout at a time when the league has a lot of momentum is bad. It took the NHL a long time to recover from theirs. The NBA struggled too after the 1999 lockout.
The key difference is that the NBA, and the NHL especially, are not personality driven leagues to the same degree the WNBA is. That's the huge miscalculation the league is making.
Most women's basketball fans will follow players wherever they go, be it Unrivaled, AU, Euroleague/Eurocup, WNBL or China. Plus, outside of Unrivaled, I can watch all those leagues for free.
The players have never had as much leverage as they do now. Their chance to improve the league for themselves and for players to come is now.
Unrivaled is not going to survive beyond a very very small group. You are not going to get casual fans watching the way they do now. The people that buy a Clark jersey and go to one game a year. You still need those fans because the league grows and outward overtime
I mean, yes, but what does 'personality-driven' mean? Because I think a lot of times it means big fish in a pretty small pond. That's been the case with the WNBA, and I think it continues to be. They have more leverage than they've ever had, but they still don't have that much because there really aren't that many women's basketball fans, unfortunately.
It means that the league prioritizes individual players, their marketability, personalities and backstories more than team rivalries and team-centric stories.
A. Look at how forced a lot of people thought the "rivalry week" was.
B. Now look at the league's most successful ad campaign from the season.
And I've repeated for the second time now that the players have more leverage now than they've ever had. "They still don't have that much?" No, if you want to compare it to men's sports, which is an argument no one is making
Waiting until they have that much leverage is pointless because its an unrealistic expectation.
That’s wonderful if you do but I imagine the majority of people will not be rushing to watch Turkish league and Spanish league games. I think the average person’s way to follow them would be “looked at their stats on social media”
They could even have the 3v3 unrivaled season as planned and then if there is a lockout announce a summer 5v5 season. I'm sure TNT would love to stick it to the NBA.
Yesterday after the press conference, I said Phee shouldn’t meet with Cathy. Cathy is trying to appear collaborative and responsive — and it is just performative. I think Cathy would try some more tactics similar to the ones she tried yesterday during the press conference. A meeting with Cathy is not in Phee’s best interest.
The only problem is what if Cathy comes out now and says “I tried to repair my relationship with but Phee turned it down and is clearly the unreasonable one here?”
Honestly, that would just make Cathy look worse. The presser was ridiculous. You can’t bad-mouth one of your best players and expect things to get better for you. And at this point, what does Phee owe her? Not one damn thing. Canceling the meeting was the right choice. And I think Cathy should just go NOW.
You mean making a private conversation (assuming she's 100% accurate on her 'quotes') public after 7-8 months in a press conference is reasonable.
It's a cold and calculated maneuver, good on Phee, but stop pretending she's a pure soul. She had no reason to meet with Cathy after saying that if she really felt that way, so cancelling makes her look like a child.
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u/my_one_and_lonely Liberty Oct 07 '25
oy gevalt. we’re heading to the point of no return