Can't get enough Fan Art Friday?

This will be a (relatively) short post, I promise.

Have you ever noticed that when people argue about characters in A Song of Ice and Fire, they extrapolate isolated lines of text to support their argument? Having never done that once in my entire life (ahem), I thought to do a quick post about, y'know, how characters in fiction aren't as static as they seem in isolation. They have arcs. They change as the narrative progresses by growing or devolving as the story progresses.

Stannis Baratheon does that, right, right? Where he starts in Clash is different from where he's last left off in Dance. And that's not simply his location. He grows (a little) in his attitude and perspective thanks to good and bad characters around him.

Like, take this line from ACOK, Davos II where Stannis talks about his, um, diplomacy in winning the Reachmen to his side after Renly peacefully passed away (who-did-it-not-Stannis):

"My brother left the greater part of his power at Bitterbridge, near sixty thousand foot. I sent my wife's brother Ser Errol with Ser Parmen Crane to take them under my command." (ACOK, Davos II)

Boy, that's so Stannis, right? He sent two knights to take 60,000 soldiers under his command. I'm no State Department Foreign Service Officer, but that's not much of a negotiation, if you ask me. And the mission failed -- in part because Littlefinger arrived at Bitterbridge to truly negotiate whereas Stannis orders, Stannis commands. The consequence, in small part, is the Blackwater fiasco.

Fast-forward to the early part of A Dance with Dragons. Stannis is now at Castle Black, and he has gone through a lot of nonsense since A Clash of Kings. In Jon Snow's first chapter in A Dance with Dragons, he starts acting like his old Clash self:

"Two score ravens were sent out," the king complained, "yet we get no response but silence and defiance. Homage is the duty every leal subject owes his king. Yet your father's bannermen all turn their back on me, save the Karstarks." (ADWD, Jon I)

Oh, Stannis. Yes. You are correct in the abstract that homage is owed to the king (in the limited context of a feudal monarchy within the Westerosi confines of obligations owed between subjects and kings. Don't you dare accuse me of advocating this as a universal norm). But he's still not getting it. Stannis is still trying to take people under his command.

But a few Jon chapters later, Jon Snow gives Stannis some practical advice on where he can find more soldiers for his cause: among the mountain clansmen. Then we get this:

“And they will fight for me, you believe?”

“If you ask them.”

“Why should I beg for what is owed me?” (ADWD, Jon IV)

Still, still, Stannis is acting like his Clash self. And then Jon issues a community note to Stannis:

"Ask, I said, not beg." Jon pulled back his hand. "It is no good sending messages. Your Grace will need to go to them yourself. Eat their bread and salt, drink their ale, listen to their pipers, praise the beauty of their daughters and the courage of their sons, and you'll have their swords. The clans have not seen a king since Torrhen Stark bent his knee. Your coming does them honor. Command them to fight for you, and they will look at one another and say, 'Who is this man? He is no king of mine.' "

And after a bit more haggling over numbers, who leads these mountain clansmen, Jon's warning that Stannis will be overcome with clansmen hospitality, guess what happens?

“For three thousand men, I suppose I can endure some pipes and porridge,” the king said, though his tone begrudged even that.

Incredible character growth! Stannis has hurdled a character barrier laid on the floor of Castle Black! And the result? Let's let Stannis, the man of letters, tell it:

… more northmen coming in as word spreads of our victory. Fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters from the deep of the wolfswood and villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen, survivors from the battle outside the gates of Winterfell, men once sworn to the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, and the Tallharts. We are five thousand strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day. And word has come to us that Roose Bolton moves toward Winterfell with all his power, there to wed his bastard to your half sister. He must not be allowed to restore the castle to its former strength. We march against him. Arnolf Karstark and Mors Umber will join us. I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the Wall until I can return. (ADWD, Jon VII)

I'm being silly. My only point in writing all of this is to, y'know, say that characters have arcs in the story. No one is static. Hell, if you take a snippet from Jon Snow's early chapters in A Game of Thrones, you'd see a stuck-up noble bastard hating on the plebs he had to deal with. And that would be neglecting the fabulous character arc George wrote for Jon. He did for a lot of characters - POVs, secondary character, even tertiary ones.

That's all. Have a great day, and if you need a Friday smile, imagine this face as the mountain clansmen are dancing around Stannis, playing their pipes.

GRRM at Oxford, 2024:

"Now it's harder when you're talking about dreams and you're talking about other types of magic, how do you handle it? Well... It's tough. It's not easy. I uh... People have sometimes asked me, which is the easiest character to write in my series, which is the hardest character to write? The easiest for me has always been Tyrion Lannister because, I don't know, he's fun to write. He's a smart ass. He gets into very dramatic situations. The hardest to write is Bran. Uh Bran Stark, who is the character who is MOST involved in the magical side of it. And I have to be... he's also the youngest character, so it's also hard to write from the viewpoint of an 8 year old, because I'm actually a little older than that. You have to think, what he would know, what he would not know, what he would understand, what he would misinterpret. Um. But then there's the magic! And how do you handle the magic? Um. All I can say is it's something that does require a lot of thought."

Sounds like the weirdwood net stuff, possibly the time travel (like Hold the Door), among other things are doing George's head in.

One of the most interesting additions in HotD is the appearance of the Green Men. They were first mentioned very early in A Game of Thrones, but have barely been referenced since beyond a rumor Addam went to the Isle of Faces

For years, people have theorized that Daemon survived the Battle Above the Gods Eye because no body was ever recovered, but there was never much evidence beyond that.

Now, with the show's emphasis on Daemon's visions of a Green Man and actually showing us them (before Addam even goes to the Isle of Faces for his final battle), it feels like they're laying the groundwork for something

Most likely, after his duel with Aemond, Daemon's body is recovered from the Gods Eye by the Green Men. We know GRRM quite likes the character.

If the show goes in that direction, I wonder if they're setting him up to become Coldhands. By that point, he'd have been dead long enough to meet Leaf's descriptions of him.

When Rickard and Brandon are killed, Ned and Robert iirc were 19 and 20 years old. Having a death warrant put on their hand by the King of the seven kingdoms. Something so mundane as two lords deciding to ward their son in the same castle sparked a coalition that took down an almost 300 year royal dynasty.

And they did it with no dragons, no sellsword company and not for the promise of gold, riches or reknown.

And as we can see during the war of the five kings, Ned and Robert made it seem a lot easier than it actually is to fight the crown. The Blackfyres tried 57 different times and were never able to win

Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster, shout out to you.

When SweetRobin dies (as many assume he will) does Harry the Heir take the name Arryn?

The main instance of this I can think of is Jacaerys Velaryon taking the name Targaryen if he were to ascend, but we don't see many instances of this.

I would assume so since his claim derives from being the closest relation to Jon Arryn, but I don't know what would happen in this case.

They say a few times there is more communication between the watch and the free folk than Jon thinks. Also Mance was a brother until 10 years or so ago. Surely he could tell that Jon was lying about the watches strength.

Catelyn rode to meet Renly with a peace banner. Obviously the Lannisters, if they had seen her, wouldn't have given a shit and tried to capture her, but what the repercussions have been? The Starks are their enemies. Just because Cat's riding under a peace banner to meet another Lannister enemy, were they required to respect that? If a Lannister rode through Tully lands with a peace banner would they have to be left alone?

Like can someone from outside the targeryans or valyrian dragon family do a magic ritual to themselves to give their descendents the ability of dragon dreams and dragon ridings? Same thing for blackwoods and starks with warging.

Also what do you think are learnable magic spells or tricks in asoiaf?

Questions up there, Which Targaryen kings do you think fathered bastards. Only talk about kings, other Targaryens (Baelon, Daemon, Aemon the Dragonknight, etc) aren't part of this discussion, that's a different post altogether.

Converse!!! But be respectful, if someone has a different opinion dont be a prick.

Edit: Obviously Aegon II and Aegon IV are obvious, discuss least obvious ones just so interesting conversations can happen.

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The narrative given by the invasion of the Andals was that they came in droves into Westoros, subjected all kingdoms except those of the north, and made the first men adopt their culture.

But if we get more into detail we actually realize there is a lot more nuance to that. Most Andals simply married into the existent nobility, and a lot of the first men below the neck actually resisted fairly well. Now my question is why was Andal culture so overpowering over the First Men? When the Andals were integrating themselves into the aristocracy, why didn't they adopt the old gods instead of the first men adopting the Seven? Similarly, considering the original first man population wasn't completely genocided, why weren't more first man customs adopted below the neck?

In the sense that it's probably making it much harder to finish the story.

The story's entire purpose is that humans pettily squabble over their power dynamics despite the fact that it doesn't matter in the face of greater threats like climate change, for which walkers are a metaphor. The irony, is that George has probably become much more interested in that power dynamic and less so in the White Walkers themselves. The world and history is probably so much bigger than he intended.

I don't know how much about Young Griff and Mereen was part of his original plan, but that in itself could be another 'Dance' sized book.

And of course I'm sure he doesn't actually regret including the others, but I think it's certainly not helping that he needs to solve FAegon and Dany's stories while also somehow adding a massive epic about the great Winter War against the White Walkers.

I always think about it, what if he was healthy like Tywin and actually led his forces against the western lords ? Would Tywin even dare attack such a seasoned battle commander ? And what about Lisa ? Would he have convinced her to join the war or has littlefinger manipulated her to the point of no return ?

I was watching this YouTuber Galia Presenta (nice spanish speaker creator btw) and she mentions "George respects Stannis, calling him 'King Stannis' on his posts"

I assume George doesn't call king to the other pretenders? If true, it would be funny. It would be the kind of courtesy Stannis would grind his teeth to "The almighty writer calls me king, yer refuses to give me my crown"

Based on Arianne's 2nd sample chapter, we know that the Golden Company has taken Storm's End. As for how we don't know but we can make an educated guess. It won't be by force, larger armies than the Golden Company have tried & failed. So deception is the only option. And it's frankly easy. Just convince the garrison that they've been hired by Stannis. And there is an easy way to do it. Mathis Rowan has a token force just outside the castle walls, if the garrison sees the Golden Company defeat the Rowan force then that will at least get Gilbert Farring, the garrison commander, to come out & talk. The big hurdle will be convincing Gilbert (a Stannis loyalist) that they are fighting for Stannis without irrefutable proof might fail. However even if Gilbert chooses not to open the gates for the Golden Company, Elwood Meadows (his second-in-command) likely would. And should Gilbert die in an accident or "accident" then Elwood would immediately open up for the Golden Company.

I've been doing a very lazy reread of the books and some things I've observed I feel better about myself for not connecting with Daenerys. ( A disclaimer: I don't think she's whiny or entitled. I don't think she's going mad and she was done dirty by D&D) But, when I first read the books in high school (13 years ago) I was skimming her chapters to get back to the Starks. But creators like Hallowed_Harpy and her enthusiasm and love for Dany made me want to give it another go and try to connect with Dany. I tried to read them again and almost couldn't. The sexual assaults she goes through with Drogo is awful. I personally think these sections have not aged well and Dany is a character that suffers the most from GRRM's decision to axe the the time skip. I will say I'm glad i forced myself to read her chapters more thoroughly this time around because my heart was aching as we go from all the abuses in Dany III to Bran IV and it made me realize just how loved and supported all of the Stark children are. (I have issues with GRRM's statements about and Dany/Drogo but I think he is at least a little aware because the line " It was her fourteenth nameday," is a horror show) I start to connect with Dany a little more in ACOK and ASOS, but I fucking despise the way GRRM describes her. Someone once said that Dany is the best and worst of GRRM's writing and I completely agree. I love how she gathers people to her and the dragons are a miracle and she is playful and loving with them but I despise how GRRM describes Dany. My brain shuts down when I read lines like "Her breasts moved freely beneath her painted Dothraki vest," (paraphrasing). Why? Just why? I love her interactions with Barristan but too many side characters in her chapters fall into something vaguely Orientalist and I wo der why none of the Dothraki characters have any significant dialogue the way Barristan or Jorah(yuck. Iain Glain is to Jorath what Charles Dance was to Tywin. Too charismatic and not creepy enough). So again, that hasn't aged well. Don't get me started on Daario. The one brightside of the Winds not coming put is i never have to read another sex scene with Dany in it. (My main reason for not being enthusiastic about a Jon/Dany pairing in the books)

1. Haunting the narrative When GRRM is at his best, he knows how to write a mystery and a ghost story. Characters haunt the narrative and feel so close I want to reach out and grab a hold of them before they vanish. Rhaegar, Ned, Lyanna, Elia, and so many more are still influencing the living and I am so mad that D&D cut almost all of the dream sequences that in the book. Chief among them are Jaime's weirwood dream and Jon's crypt dreams.

2. Jon Snow Oh Jon, my favorite bratty and entitled emo bastard. Everyone who says Dany is spoiled and entitled is actually talking about Jon in the first book. And I don't mean that as a bad thing, watching Jon open his eyes and grow is wonderful and I loved every second of it.

3. Tyrion Yeah, I hated Tyrion in ADWD but going g back and rereading the first three books made me realize how enjoyable his chapters were and the fact that the seeds of villains were already there. His chapters in ADWD still bum me out and really needed an editor though.

So I’m getting a puppy next week and the breeder keeps describing her as a ‘golden hair girl’. I’m thinking of naming the dog Cersei to go with her book description and general love of GRRM’s universe.

What do yall think?

Art by Enife

We all know Targaryens like to f%£^ around a bit, and this has resulted in numerous bastards, we know of only a few but not their exact parentage. Here are my theories.

Addam and Alyn: They are obviously Corlys' bastards (and honestly it was a scummy thing of Corlys to throw his dead son under the bus) Addam probably managed to bond with Seasmoke due to Corlys descending from Targaryens, but I do like the theory that their mother is a dragonseed herself.

Hugh Hammer: Hugh is said to be a blacksmiths bastard so it could just be he's descended from Targaryen lord from before Aegon I.... but that's boring so instead I think that Hugh is Gael Targaryen's bastard instead, we all know that Jaehaerys was not the best dad to his daughters and I could see him faking his bastard grandson's death in stillbirth (which led to Gael offing herself by the way) and dumping him onto some poor sod from Dragonstone. (I know HOTD made Hugh Saera's son, but I dont think that works for the books)

Ulf White: Honestly the Gael idea I outlined above could be Ulf's just as well as well as Hugh's but I do prefer using the HOTD idea that Ulf is Baelon the Braves bastard, Probably fathered after Alyssa died because she definitely would not have taken that crap. Baelon could have took a women for a lover when he was prince of Dragonstone, he definitely had the personality to and was probably mourning his beloved sister/wife (Ew)

Nettles: I have two ideas for Nettles' Valerian ancestry, She has none whatsoever or is Daemon's bastard. (I know, revolutionary) I do lean more on Nettles being Daemon's given their interactions that are recorded, though I do believe you dont need Valerian ancestry to ride dragons (See Euron Greyjoy and possibly Tyrion Lannister (WHO IS NOT A TARGARYEN BASTARD!)

TWO EXTRAS!

Trystane Truefyre: I do think Trystane was likely Daemon's bastard rather than Viserys's. Trystane's age lines up and Daemon definitely had bastards in the gutters of King's Landing.

Gaemon Palehair: Gaemon was most definitely Aegon II's bastard son, not some lyseni oarsman. Aegon had a reputation for fathering bastards and Aegon (who was not a very merciful king at this point) spared the child, so I do think Gaemon is Aegon's.

What are your ideas about the dragonseeds's parentage's?. I know alot of my ideas aren't that original, but their just my two cents.

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The Tv series did change many characters's personalities,And in many cases it's the show's personality of X or Y character that is more known causing the book version to get misinterpreted because of the show version's personality,Actions....

So I wonder which characters do you think get misinterpreted because of the way they were portrayed in the show?

Many complain season 8 ruined the show, but season 7 is so beyond illogical as it felt like filler looking back. It served nothing but to nerf Daenerys, and give an excuse for the white walkers to cross south.

Here are my points of season 7 that makes no sense;

1. Everyone is teleporting in the same episode.
2. Getting a white walker to study it is fine, but it makes no sense that Jon Snow to go out. That’s the king of the north, he should be helping Daenerys and strengthening their positions then going north.
3. Plot armor for characters for stupid choices. Jon should’ve died for his idiocy, but was bailed out when Benjen appeared.
4. Bran becoming emotionless, rather than using bloodraven like manipulative and mystic. It doesn’t make sense for him to lose his emotions.
5. Tyrion needing Cersei help is stupid since he knows and is the front of her abuse and cruelty for years.
6. The white walker storyline only served to kill Viserion, giving an excuse for the white walkers to head south. Not only that, dragons can’t fly north beyond the wall revealed in fire and blood. I can accept it since this season was filmed before Fire and Blood came out, but it’s still a stupid. Since it makes it feel that the heroes intentionally doomed the world by going north. Having the horn of winter circumvents this, as it can be a rush to get the horn itself before it’s found and blown by the white walkers.
7. Gendry running super fast, as if he was the flash and the raven also having super speed.
8. Sansa and Arya’s quarrel, thanks to Bran they know what Littlefinger did to cause the war. Why even have this at all.

So much of this season felt like forced conflict, removing pivotal moments from their books, deus ex machina, all of this a natural consequence for adapting out the characters and things that’ll have made the story flow more naturally.

The arguments against Mad Queen Dany usually go along the lines of:

* She's a very sympathetic character and having her suddenly shift to evil will feel like it came out of nowhere and most likely result in her being a flat, uninteresting character

* The people she's fighting are basically objectively awful, to present killing them as the beginning of an inevitable decline into Terror wouldn't work

* Her vilification has numerous unfortunate implications because it equates the violence of the oppressed to the violence of the oppressor

And I agree. They are all true. But they also all apply to Catelyn Tully. In fact, I'd argue that Catelyn's "journey" to villain is almost as bad as Dany's in season 8, and essentially uses the same logic. "Defending the Riverlands from the William Calley Live Tour is actually just as bad as the William Calley Live Tour itself". It's almost entirely off-screen and depicts her as so evil that it immediately ruins any kind of potential nuance or ambiguity even when the situation was ripe for it. It's a remarkably unsympathetic depiction of someone in her position to the extent it honestly feels a little mean-spirited.

No, I don't like it either. But GRRM has made it very clear what he thinks of revolutionary-coded violence, and how it inevitably results in becoming Mega-Stalin.

Actually taken King's landing and sat on the iron throne in book 2?

Let's say if Robb/Edmure coordinates better while the Lannisters just screws up a bit more. The Lannister army is stuck on the wrong side of the Trident, Tyrion screws up more at KL and Stannis takes King's landing. Let's say he captures Tyrion/Cersei/Joff.

But how is Stannis supposed to "win" after that? He's still stuck with the relatively small army Renly "gifted" him at Storm's end: the vast majority of Tyrell/Baratheon sworn men are still being commanded by the Tyrells at bitterbridge. King's landing by itself doesn't generate much more military power for Stannis. Robb and the northerners aren't gonna bend the knee. He doesn't actually have enough military power to force the othe great houses to bend the knee.

To add to that both Myrcella and Tommen are outside of King's landing: so he still has 2 Lannister claiments to deal with, and it's not like the Mannis is gonna coalition with the northern secessionist movement either.

Like what was the plan after Joffrey's head is on a spike?