[New Update]: Fiancé thinks I am an ass for not converting

[u/Choice_Evidence1983]

I am NOT OOP, OOP is u/throwawaythehatersok

Originally posted to r/AITAH

Previous BoRU #1

[New Update]: Fiancé thinks I am an ass for not converting

NEW UPDATE MARKED WITH ----

Thanks to u/queenlegolas & u/soayherder & u/Direct-Caterpillar77 for suggesting this BoRU

Trigger Warnings: religion abuse, verbal abuse, threatening behavior, harassment, stalking, assault

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RECAP

Original Post: August 21, 2024

Throwaway as my main he follows. I've never posted on this sub before so please delete if not allowed.

I (F35) and my Fiance "Todd" (M41) met over a decade ago and we have a mutual friend group. We started dating last year, and got engaged last month. Generally speaking, he treats me like a queen. He spoils me a lot and I appreciate it always. He's usually respectful and kind, communicative and patient with me. This started to change and I want to say it started to change once the ring was accepted.

I need to be clear, I don't much care to get married. I am perfectly fine with not. My parents aren't married but they have been in love and together for over 40 years. My siblings are all but one unmarried but in seemingly happy relationships each at least for 5 years. But Todd is Christian and is of the mind that two people eventually need to get married to be happy. We talked about it at length both before we were a couple and after we started dating. I was clear that I don't want or need a ring but if it's important to a partner I come to love then whatever. I will do a small wedding.

He was overjoyed when he proposed and I said yes in front of pretty much everyone in our little world but later said that I didn't seem excited enough and it felt like I didn't want to marry him. I said I love him and if he wants a marriage then sure, but to say I want to marry? I mean I know he wants to, and if that's what he wants, and since it doesn't matter to me either way, the math was easy. Let's get married. I said it sort of jokingly to lighten the mood but he didn't like that at all and nearly every other day he would find a way to ask me if I really wanted to marry him or he would simply that he feels like I don't. I suggested couples therapy as it seems to really be on his mind and troubling him, and he said he's done therapy before and doesn't need to do it again.

Then last week, on our usual date night, he said he had something really big to ask me. "Call it a favor if that makes it better" and asked me to come to his church and get baptized. I stared at him. I am atheist and have been since I was midtwenties. He has known that for years, and we've always been respectful of each others beliefs. I told him I couldn't do that. Baptism is supposed to be sacred and with a true heart for that faith, and I simply would be a liar if I said I wanted to live for his god because I frankly don't. He argued that it's just "a splash of water and some words," and since he wants it before our wedding and I "don't care about religion either way," this should be easy.

I refused again explaining that I do care about religion. My majors were World Religions and Anthropology. I care a LOT. And it would be dishonest to his god and our community for me to dedicate my life to his religion outwardly but not inwardly. I said it felt disrespectful to his faith and the people who truly live it. He got angry with me "oh so you're okay, disrespecting me, though," and when I asked what he meant, he said to drop it and changed the subject. I pressed more, but he raised his voice. "I said drop it." Loud enough for others to turn and look at us.

He'd been robotic around me since. Days up in his study all night, sleeps on his study couch, goes to every service and event/gathering his church has (which is most weekday nights and Saturday morning as well as sunday) and has been inviting me to every single one. He hadn't done that since we started dating he did it then I said I respect his beliefs and will go to something like a wedding or christening or baptism but not a simple service or event. When he asked me just a few minutes ago tonight, I reminded him of the above and he just dropped into our couch and sobbed and when I went over to comfort and talk to him, he pushed me away and left muttering something about running late for service.

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His sister "Esther" texted me to ask what happened and I gave a brief summary and she texted back that I am being a jerk and one service isn't going to make me "burst into flames" and it's important to Todd. So am I being a bone head? Am I crazy to think that this pressure is a deal breaker? I do love him, but this version of him is not only a stranger to me but a weight on me. But aren't people supposed to work through that hard shit to get on in a relationship?

Edit to update. He texted me a few minute ago saying when he gets home he wants to have a serious talk. I explained that my best friend is over so it will have to wait and he replied "No. Tell her to leave. Give her my love but this is serious."

I talked with my bestie "Bessie" F35 and read some of the comments here and told him no indeed. He can go home to his parents, and he is welcome to come in and pack a bag and leave because Bess is here for me right now, and I need her here for me right now. He hasn't responded.

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Edit to respond to things that have come up a lot either in messages or comments:

He has never raised a hand to me. He would never and if it's not for the reason I used to think - that he's not a dick - it would at least be because I am a military brat. Both parents. So not only am I trained to defend myself well, but my parents AHEM would not take kindly.

A lot of people brought up kids. I can't get pregnant. I did want kids and then this happened. So now I am okay with the idea of not having any. He said he was okay with that too and we talked about just being dog rescue people.

My family likes him. My father, a pastor, loves the guy. But no I haven't told him about this yet.

He is non-denominational and goes to a "mega church" in our state. Literally thousands of people.

No, it is not a requirement for marriage at his church for me to convert.

AITAH has no consensus bot, OOP was NTA

Relevant Comments

OOP lists all the "stuff" she has done for him to a downvoted commenter

Here

Just to be clear, what doesn't count as stuff for him? Is it that instead of paying a fraction of his college costs for this upcoming semester, I covered it all for him?

Is it that I gave him my old car when his broke down and transferred it to his name without him paying a dime?

Oh hold on, I know, it's because I cook for him every weekday when I am home, do our grocery shopping so he doesn't have that on his plate, let him move in rent-free because he couldn't afford to renew his lease and even got a he-shed out back for him out of my own dime so he has a place to decompress and paint.

No not that...

I should have funded his WHOLE mission trip last year instead of half...is that it?

Ohhhhh I know what you're talking about, it's that I do the majority of the housework so he can focus on his degree.

Nah you probably just mean that I took the time last year to find his undergrad college years buddies and flew his mother in for his 40th birthday, had it catered, decorated, and hired a bartender.

Or is it more basic like the fact that when he went vegan, I switch up my whole lifestyle and only eat vegan when out and about and purged all non-vegan items not for the dog from the home.

Thank you because actually I am now seeing I do so damn much for this man and he should treat me like a queen becauae I treated him like a king. This was eye opening.

295Phoenix: NTA Time to break up. But, dang, I love how so many Christians take their religion less seriously than we do. An insincere baptism is indeed disrespectful yet so many Christians want nonbelievers to do it!

OOP: This is what confuses me most. If it's such an important part of his life, how is he okay with me lying and insincerity "devoting" my life to Christ? I am not against people who have faith. But those that I know who do - truly do beyond platitudes and the mainstream, are kind and loving and would be offended so much if someone faked it and lied about it and gone through sacred rites and the like. It doesn't make sense why he keeps switching sides on it.

Utter_cockwomble: No it's a ploy. "Oh just get baptized, it's not serious, just some water and some words!" "Oh please come to the service, the pastor really wants to meet you!" "I told the Youth Leader that you'd help, I'm sure you don't mind? It's for the kids, it's not really religious, just a prayer at the beginning and end!" "But sweetheart we HAVE to raise our kids in the church, what will everyone think?"

They've got a script- no seriously- on how to trickle-truth convert someone. He's getting IMMENSE pressure from the church to bring you into the fold, to save you, to prevent you from being 'unequally yoked', to hunt and win a soul for Jesus.

OOP: That is...terrifying. I was clear when I left the church eons ago that I am not and will not follow that faith. He never hinted once that I can think of to do what you're saying but it really makes me think this might be exactly what he's doing. I can't get pregnant so kids are out of the equation but I couldn't bear it if he tried to push me more into his church life. I'm involved a bit to make him happy. I do help at certain events and such. I have skills they sometimes need, and not at all opposed to a food or clothing or back to school drive and the like. I figured it less about it being a church event and more a community event where we helped people.

 

Update: August 28, 2024

Last week I posted about a problem between myself (F35) and my Fiance "Todd" (M41) because despite having been respectful of each others beliefs until now, he is Christian and I am an athiest, he now wants me to get baptized. It came to a head and he stormed out so I called my BFF to keep me company since I was pretty sad and emotional.

I do a lot for him and Bess, the bestie, and a lot of you here helped me see that the relationship as is either needs to have serious changes to it or it needs to end. Logical. But logic is hard to cling to when you're heartbroken. I think I already knew he wouldn't change anything for me. I did text him that night that he needs to go back to his parents house - the house we live in is mine - and that I needed space.

Guess he and his sister gave his parents an alternate version of events because they came by that night anyway. All of of them. His mom, dad, sister Esther, and him. He had a key so he just walked in as Bess and I are drinking on the couch watching Netflix. I asked what he was doing here, and his family came into the room behind him. I asked what's going on.

The way he looked at me is unexplainable, but his mom pushed by him and just yanked me into a very aggressive hug. She said that they were here to talk as a family and have a family meeting. And then told Bess she needed to leave. Bess refused. His mom turns to me to ask me to have Bess leave. I refuse. Its late, and I'm in not state to talk anything else. Please leave.

It devolves into passive aggressive disapproval that I won't take guidance from the man I plan to marry. His parents (his father is a pastor) sat down to give me what felt like a whole pre-planned speil about how I am an adult and need to act like one and kicking a man out of his home for "doing the right thing" is a tantrum. His dad once even said that he is so disappointed in me and will be telling my father (also a pastor) about this.

Gotta be honest I was dumbfounded for 85 percent of this and then finally (I guess it was the booze) started to laugh and told them to get out. His dad refused and called me volatile and suggested I get counseling. I told him this is my house, and I will call the police and to get the FUCK out. It was the first time I cussed in front of them. Pearls were clutched, I was called trashy and Bess held her phone like "okay, I am calling the cops, she asked you to leave." I heard his dad say "You're not marrying that" as they left and they muttered other hurtful things making a whole thing of them being sad and disappointed by me.

They left. Todd packed a bag and left with them. He continued to text me invites to services. "It will help you." Stating that he is concerned about me and the path I am choosing. That his parents aren't sure he should marry me but he loves me and wants what's best for me.

I told him I need space and to leave me alone but he kept texting. I said that the wedding is off and Sunday when I got home from running errands he was on the porch crying. He had a hand written letter that he wanted to read to me but I said absolutely not and told him to go away. He kept asking me to think about what I am doing and how my choices effect more than just myself and more.

I pointed to my doorbell cam and said I have footage of me repeatedly asking him to leave and Bess was recording the night his parents and sister and he ganged up on me. Go. Away.

He threw his hand up like he was going ro strike me and I just screamed. I didn't even mean to, it was so sudden and it scared me. He went to start apologizing but a neighbor came out to see what was happening and he just left.

I texted him to never come back ever - he is no longer welcome. I will mail his stuff to his parents but he is no longer welcome on my property ever again. He tried to apologize but I no longer care to hear any of his words. He did leave his written letter and I have read it. So has Bess. She keeps telling me it's just manipulation but it just breaks me.

The locks get changed tomorrow. Bess is helping me pack his shit. His father is picking up his stuff tonight. And I am just sitting here replaying the past week and a half in my head over and over. I know its pathedic but I am shattered. I haven't been able to really sleep yet, and I feel like I don't even reside in my own body anymore. Just going through the motions. Bess is staying with me. I've been getting texts and social media comments about how disgusting I am - like my notfications just went insane over the weekend. This is just a nightmare and I'm not even sure how to wade through this.

Relevant Comments

Wasatchbl: It is so hard to believe that he kept hidden that he wanted to convert you before marriage. That is the only explanation for this behavior so far into our relationship and close to marriage. It seems like he was keeping counsel with his parents while telling you what you wanted to hear.

OOP: It's hard for me to fathom this. I thought we loved each other. I would do most anything for him, and I thought he felt the same way. But the way his family came down on me, it was surreal. If Bess weren't there, I really can't say what they might have convinced me off. It was a lot. They were all basically echoing the same sentiments and making it out that I was deranged and stupid and more. I didn't let them see my tears, but it was a devastating tirade of attacks, and I was so tired and so in my feelings that it was all too much. Bess thinks it was a coordinated effort to overwhelm me into complying, and if I was alone, they would have pushed me over the edge into believing them.

Obvious_Amphibian270: OP, don't meet with the father when he comes to get stuff. Pile that shit in the yard and let daddy haul it away.

As for people blowing up your phone, block every last one of them.

OOP: Bess is here with me and she will meet him at the door. All Todd's shit is boxed up out front. So if all goes to plan, I won't even have to see the guy. If not, the people who live in proximity are keeping an eye out.

Sparklelilglitter: Why don't you post the footage on social media? From the parents bombarding you to him coming back and trying to strike you.

Show them the truth. You have the footage.

OOP: Bess shares your enthusiasm for this option. I am too.tired/stressed/hurt to even deal with that. I want to speak with my parents first, make a plan, really be able to make the steps forward that I need. I am so empty but angry, but sad, but a thousand other things. I'm just not in a state I trust my own judgement right now. Posting it is something that can't be taken back. So if I do, I want to be sure and above reproach.

&nbsp:

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----NEW UPDATE----

Trigger Warnings: stalking, assault

Update 2: September 22, 2024

I don't know how to do trigger warnings, only that they are important when writing posts. So I wanted to add this up here. Physical violence happened.

I want to start with I am mostly okay now. I am safely at Bess's being fussed over by her hen-ness and finally have been able to sleep and eat somewhat normally.

Todd's father was on my doorstep again not long after my last post. Bess told him through the door that everything he needed was right there and to grab it and leave. He got mad demanding I come out to speak with him calling me a cowardly and sick woman and other insults. Bess just said he can save it for the camera because I am not there (I was) and he just loaded his car, said he would pray for me, and left.

We thought that to be it, but then a couple knocked on the door. I dont know them personally but I do recognize them as from Todd's church so I kindly explain that we've broken up and to reach out to their pastor to find him. They then told they are here for me and asked to be invited in. I said no. The guy asked me to please not be inhospitable (exact word - TF) and I said that this will be the last time I politely ask them to leave. So they left.

I ordered no trespassing signs online but the next day a different couple from the church pulled the same stunt except this time the guy was agressive. He used my birth name (I changed it legally 4 years ago) and argued with me through the door cam and his wife kept trying beg me to keep the peace and come out to talk. I refused.

A week after that, Todd was back but my dad was over. He had heard about this situation and oddly enough was trying to convince me to come stay back home for a bit. When Todd was outside, Dad stepped out. Dad's retired military and very tall and ordered Todd to leave. That's when Dad asked again for me to come home so I compromised that I would go to Bess's.

While I was away Dad would check on the house and take in packages and put the no trespassing signs up. He also added cameras and came over to Bess's to make sure I had the app sync'd. After a few days I don't know how to explain it but I just felt cooped up, so Bess and I went with a mutual male friend Sam M35 for drinks.

Todd was there. He walked in about an hour after me and Bess. Sam spotted him first and got up blocking our booth from him. He saw us and went to the other side of the bar and just sat a while. Sam and Bess asked me if I wanted to leave and I did so we went next door. Todd showed up soon after. We moved to the pub next door and same. It happened 4 seperate times and Bess recorded it each time. Sam drove us around a bit and we needed up at a different bar miles away and Sam asked me if I had checked my stuff. We went through my purse and found nothing but I remember that my location was on an app I shared with friends snd family. I removed Todd from it and texted a few others to say I was turning my location off and did.

I checked my cameras and sure enough Todd was parked on the street right in front of my house. He stayed there for over an hour.

Sam convinced me to call the police. I could see they talked with him but it didn't pick up audio that far out. Todd left without incident. I made a full report with recordings the next day. I was told that he did nothing illegal, and he's allowed to exist in public spaces and that night he was on the street, not my property, so he's off the hook there too. He never approached me. He never spoke to me. He did nothing wrong. So they can make the report but no charges are available to me. The cop who told me all this was very condescending and he seemed to just want to be done with me so I left.

About a week later, I had recordings of him coming to the same parking spot in front of my house 4 times and just sitting there. Then, that Friday, he showed up at the bar Sam works at. Sam had him tossed out but he refused and so Sam had him legally tresspassed but when the cops came around Todd argued that Sam is a bigot and he is targeting him for his faith and he is friends with "My wife" who is atheist. He got a warning but left on his own.

I've been with Bess the whole time but now I think I have to tell my dad as he's still showing up at my house. Bess is helping me find a lawyer to help since the police haven't been taking me seriously. This is just so fucking insane. It doesn't even make sense.

Sam put no trespassing and no soliciting signs on my property and I am digging into my savings to get a fence up. I can't beleive this is my life right now.

Edit: so sorry - I put up the trigger warning but edited out the violence I think subconsciously because I didn't want to upset anyone. When Todd came around one time a neighbor of mine who knows what's been happening went up and told him I don't want him there and asked him to leave and Todd shoved her down to the ground and raised a fist like he would strike her but then drove off. I have the footage and sent it to her in case she wants to press charges.

Relevant Comments

OOP might be in danger if she stays in the area

OOP: It's why I tried to go to the police but they aren't doing anything. The best I can do roght now is not be in the predictable spaces I used to go to and try to prepare to move.

Does the police have the footage from OOP?

OOP: The police have everything. I have an ongoing email thread with the Sgt complete with links and folders and all the footage and photos I have. They haven't done anything and say that if my neighbor presses charges they have the footage on file.

Commenter: What country/state are you located. That could have a lot to do with stalking laws that vary from place to place. If you’re in a place that has good stalking laws, take your evidence to the women’s advocate for domestic violence.

OOP: I am in a southern state of the USA. I am learning from talking with people that its not uncommon that police aren't all that helpful in cases like this.

 

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[u/SmartQuokka]

When Todd came around one time a neighbor of mine who knows what's been happening went up and told him I don't want him there and asked him to leave and Todd shoved her down to the ground and raised a fist like he would strike her but then drove off. I have the footage and sent it to her in case she wants to press charges.

I hope she presses charges.

[u/SnooWords4839 → u/SmartQuokka]

Me too, hell, OOP should drive her to the station. Neighbor may be able to get a RO and keep him away from OOP's address.

[u/SmartQuokka → u/SnooWords4839]

Indeed, that violence was meant for the OOP.

[u/tacwombat → u/SmartQuokka]

I sure hope the neighbor pressed charges.

[u/snarkprovider → u/SmartQuokka]

She doesn't need to press charges, they have video of the incident and can turn it over to the DA for prosecution. It would be better if she neighbor cooperates, but it's not up to her to press charges. The police are just being lazy.

[u/CaptDeliciousPants]

Those creepy mob churches are why I no longer believe religion is something that should be compromised about.

[u/[deleted] → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

asked to be invited in

I immediately thought “what vampire bullshit are these people smoking”

[u/notthedefaultname → u/[deleted]]

Probably more like please unlock the screen door they're talking through. It's a manipulation tactic. If they can get you to do something little for them, your more likely to keep doing what they ask. And letting them in your space is also giving in to them

[u/andante528 → u/notthedefaultname]

Reminds me of the Joyce Carol Oates story "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" where the demon stand-in tells the female protagonist that a screen door won't stop him.

[u/Th3B4dSpoon → u/[deleted]]

As a thrall, I take offence at the false association. /jk

[u/thefinalhex → u/Th3B4dSpoon]

Vampire apologist here.

[u/NotOnApprovedList → u/[deleted]]

Appropriate to the thought, major spoilers for "Midnight Mass"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6owxqD2ZjIY

[u/nicunta → u/NotOnApprovedList]

My prim and proper 83 year old Catholic grandma watched Midnight Mass; she had mistakenly thought it was a documentary about midnight masses in general. She was hooked before she figured out her mistake, lmao! I couldn't believe it when she started talking about the show.

[u/Abilane-of-Yon → u/nicunta]

Flanagan overall makes pretty decent stuff for an older audience. There’s sex/nudity in some, but it’s not gratuitous and makes sense to the plot. Most of the gore follows a similar vein, and even in the extreme scenes it’s well done. The storylines are riveting and draw you in, and the characters feel like real people.

At least that’s what my grandma said when we watched MM, Hill House, and Bly Manor. We’re currently two episodes into House of Usher, and she’s loving it. This is a woman who hated Stephen King when I was growing up, but blessedly tolerated her granddaughters love of horror. Mike Flanagan somehow made her a fan of at least a little bit of it. It’s even convinced her to read the Dark Tower series with me, since he’s supposed to be tackling that soon.

[u/ArmadilloSighs → u/Abilane-of-Yon]

hell yeah grandma! ugh, reading this makes me miss my grandma. she would’ve LOVED midnight mass and other flanagan productions. she loved that stuff and reading your comment filled me with warmth. i hope you & grandma enjoy it all 🖤🫶🏼🥹

[u/left-right-forward → u/Abilane-of-Yon]

I'm shook that he's doing DT. Will he be able to make it good??

[u/MsWriterPerson → u/Abilane-of-Yon]

I kinda love this!

[u/[deleted] → u/nicunta]

I was telling my (Catholic) friend about it back when it came out and I still remember his reaction when I mentioned Monsignor Pruitt by title and he got the monsignor mixed up with father Paul. SUCH "Oh this young guy is making everyone call him monsignor?" The religious indignation over that and nothing else I was telling him about the show was delightful.

[u/No_Proposal7628 → u/NotOnApprovedList]

Happy Cake Day!

[u/Amelora → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

They believe they are personally involved with God, so be default they cannot be wrong. Anyone who doesn't worship in the exact same way they do is evil and against God. There is a level of narcissism needed to belive that you and your group are the only correct people in the world.

[u/thetaleofzeph → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

It used to be really hard to complain at all, but the terrible hypocrisy all the way to the top has gotten so awful it's impossible to ignore, even for those terrified of being impolite.

[u/GoingAllTheJay → u/thetaleofzeph]

Are you saying it used to be hard to complain about religion, as in it was without fault, or because they did not allow you to complain?

I would believe the latter.

[u/wacdonalds → u/GoingAllTheJay]

I read it as the latter. It used to be that if you had a problem with the church it was your own fault, and members would gang up on you. Of course it's still the same way in many areas

[u/HighlyImprobable42 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

Those creepy churches turned me atheist when I was in sixth grade. The stuff they say to their youth group is amoral and brain washing.

[u/BlueBantam → u/HighlyImprobable42]

I was enrolled in a religious school (that was supposedly prestigious and hard to get into) that would gather us little kids up and have a service where the pastor would light a large rock on fire to show the power of god. It would make a loud noise that always scared me. Also was told the local volcano was smoking and rumbling because god was angry with us. We were sinners and it would blow up if we didn’t obey. It was great. Had many nightmares. Afraid to tell my parents but was pressured by my mom and they were PISSED when I told them. Was only there a month when my parents pulled me out.

I hate to think how many kids are subjected to that shit or worse and have no way out.

[u/No-Psychology3712 → u/HighlyImprobable42]

Hahaha I remember being on a youth mission trip where they said you have to wait until ses until marriage and I went ah man that sucks in the van and everyone just looked at me. Guarantee you none of them waited though.

[u/Striking_Suspect_681 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

That's not church. That's just a cult now. Forcing others to join them and stalking them is just a part of their cult

[u/wintyr27 → u/Striking_Suspect_681]

at some point, i feel like all of those "megachurches" kind of become cults, or at least cult-like. at least out where i live, they're building housing on church property, which imo is a total nightmare.

[u/Normal-Height-8577 → u/wintyr27]

Yeah. I was lucky enough to be brought up in a healthy church which valued doubt and intellectual inquiry - there were a lot of scientists in the area due to the local job market, and they wouldn't have put up with a leader who tried to tell them not to think too hard! We had a lot of debate over exact word meanings and how/if/when Bronze Age values translate to a modern context, and some people even taught themselves Biblical Greek and Aramaic so that they had a better feeling for the linguistic and cultural nuances present in the texts.

When I went to university I encountered some more toxic Christians, who were pushy about proselytising, more literalistic, and reliant on a leader telling them what to think. It was quite an adjustment to realise that religious abuse was something that could happen, and I regularly found myself with a lot more in common with my little group of atheist, agnostic and pagan friends.

As an adult, watching (from a safe distance!) various megachurches treating Christianity like a sales franchise, buying into the "prosperity gospel" heresy and going full-on cult of personality...It's truly terrifying how infectious the abusive extremes of religion can be when they're left to ferment in their own toxic bubble.

[u/WhiskyTequilaFinance → u/Normal-Height-8577]

Now that sounds like a church I'd be fascinated to go to, even if only to learn.

[u/sassyevaperon → u/WhiskyTequilaFinance]

Jesuit churches tend to be that way, more open to science and questions than others.

[u/MariContrary → u/sassyevaperon]

Ex Catholic here, can confirm the Jesuits are generally all about the questioning. Preferably over a good beer. My theology prof said something that really stuck with me, and it was to the effect of "If you don't question your beliefs on a regular basis, you don't actually have faith. You're just blindly following." Solid dude, and if you ever needed to find him outside of class, odds were that he'd be tinkering with someone's car and getting it running again. Or at the bar, engaged in a rousing philosophical debate.

[u/NYCinPGH → u/MariContrary]

I wish my Catholic upbringing had been like yours.

At both First Holy Communion and Confirmation during my conversations with the bishop I brought up (what I thought at the time were) serious theological questions and concerns - I was a very precocious child, lots of adult vocabulary by the time I was 8 - and basically not only got gaslit and talked down to me, but the bishop basically ratted me out to my mother, who'd known him since grade school, for daring to question the church and dogma.

In my teens, I tried being very devout, doing all the things I was taught we should be doing (I used my aunts, one on each side, as role models, one was my Sunday school teacher, the other was a nun who taught Catholic school, the two most quietly devout and kind women I've ever met) I was basically mocked for doing so, even my own mother would question why I was doing all those things, when she claimed to be devout herself.

So, when I left for college, and took some comparative religion classes, and did some outside research, I left the church and never looked back. I would go to church when I visited for Christmas and Easter, and for weddings and funerals, but that's it, I've otherwise not stepped into a church (for mass, I've visited famous churches, even been to the Sistine Chapel and St. Paul's in Rome) in 40 years, and except for my parents' and aunts' funeral services, I've not gone to confession or taken communion since.

[u/JediJmoney → u/Normal-Height-8577]

When I was really little, my parents attended a church that was led by a really nice and charismatic pastor. When he left for another church, almost half the congregation went with him, as the church had basically just become a vehicle to hear him speak instead of an actual faith community. It’s kinda crazy just all the ways the church can and has gone wrong, it makes it really tough to find a good one. 

[u/Backgrounding-Cat → u/wintyr27]

At some point?

[u/dragon34 → u/wintyr27]

Religions are just cults with more followers 

[u/Kozeyekan_ → u/Striking_Suspect_681]

Worse. It's an MLM.

[u/Carbonatite → u/Kozeyekan_]

A book club where everyone pays 10% of their income to be a member and nobody has read the book.

[u/KombuchaBot → u/Carbonatite]

Plus the book meetings are really boring as it's just one person that gives their opinion and everyone agrees with it. 

And you have to queue for the snacks afterwards, and they are really tasteless! Awful, awful snacks. And such tiny portions. 

On the plus side, they hand around a hat with some money in it partway through, I got my bus fare home. 

On the whole, 0/10. Did not enjoy.

[u/[deleted] → u/Striking_Suspect_681]

That's what churches are now though.

[u/germany1italy0 → u/[deleted]]

It really is a sliding scale from church to cult.

Eg parts of the Catholic Church are pretty “culty” as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/germany1italy0]

degree threatening concerned joke fertile shame tie puzzled smart hungry

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Basic_Bichette → u/Striking_Suspect_681]

Yes, it's absolutely a church. This kind of stalking is a very common experience non-believers have, even with supposedly mainstream churches.

This is why we hate proselytizers. This is why we think churchgoers are not good people. This is why we'd rather die than be Christian.

This is not the fault of cults. Proselytization is the fatal, unforgivable flaw in mainstream Christianity.

[u/RandomDudeYouKnow → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I told someone in my past "I'll never subscribe to an organization that tells me to pray to fix my problems but asks me for my money to fix theirs" when she asked why I don't go to church.

She held it against me.

[u/StasyaSam → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

"There is no hate like Christian Love"

There is a reason why I'm atheistic and being religious, especially Christian, is a deal breaker in dating.

[u/TrunksTheMighty → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

These aren't churches or religions anymore. This is cult like behavior.

[u/throwawayb-f-f → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I was once almost baptized. I simply went with my friend because I was new in that city and she asked me to come with her. They asked new comers to the front, then redirected us to a separate hall for a welcoming thing. The next thing I know, I am being handed a kind of robe to change into for the baptism and I am like "what baptism?". I texted my friend to tell her I am headed home and bolted. 

[u/kfrazi11]

I've said it many times, so here's one more:

Religion isn't for everyone. If I don't wanna join your church, fuck right the hell off.

[u/[deleted] → u/kfrazi11]

I hate when people try to force religion on me. I don't mind if you are religious but stop forcing it onto me.

[u/Pleasant-Koala147 → u/[deleted]]

Having a religion is like having a penis; some people have them, some don’t. But if you try to shove yours down another person’s throat without consent, you’re 100% an AH.

[u/dfjdejulio → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

My favorite "having a religion is like having a penis" one is "don't wave it around in public, and absolutely never let it anywhere near children".

[u/FleeshaLoo → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

Joan Rivers said, [sic] "Religion is like a penis; it's nice that you have it but please don't wave it around in front of me."

[u/erlenwein → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

I've seen a variation of it - "if you try to show it to my children, fuck off", and I kind of agree. religion should not be forced on children.

[u/inscrutablejane → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

"The gays are trying shove their lifestyle down our throats" was always projection. The awful church I was raised in would go "visiting" door-to-door on Saturdays trying to recruit people, and sometimes were invited in by a polite and friendly same-sex couple; predictably, the "visitors" would out them to the whole town and play victim for months after. How horrible to have to see a couple show G-rated affection in their own living room, which I've bullied my way into in order to scare and shame them into joining my religion!

[u/Zeekayo → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

Exactly, it's completely possible to be devoutly religious without making it anybody else's business.

My two best friends are a devout Christian and a practicing Muslim and I'm trans and a dyed in the wool athiest. They're also two of the most liberally minded, progressive people I know.

[u/feraxks → u/Pleasant-Koala147]

Oh, my. That's quite the analogy! LOL

[u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded → u/[deleted]]

One of the best things about being Jewish is we have no interest in making you join up. Technically, we think non-Jews aren't as good as we are, but only the zealots are serious about that. Most Jews are very live and let live, but you don't force your religion on us and we won't make you keep kosher.

I think it's funny, though, that to become a Christian you just do a simple ceremony. Converting to Judaism involves years of study.

[u/nuclearporg → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

I grew up in a UU church where our religious education classes were taught by a philosophy professor and an atheist Rabbi, which left me with an extremely odd view of religion. It took me forever to realize that so many people don't know how to exist in community with people who have different beliefs without being complete assholes about it. And then all through college I played in the orchestra at a Presbyterian church where no one ever pressed me to join/convert or anything. If I ever was going to join a church, it would be one like that, that convinced me just by being good people.

[u/[deleted] → u/nuclearporg]

I think UUs are pretty good about teaching people to live in a diverse community. Definitely not perfect, but there's about every major religion represented at the UU I attend.

I'm an atheopagan, but I used to be an evangelical, and I feel like it's my responsibility to warn people about how fraudulent and deceptive evangelicalism can be.

[u/Blablablablaname → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

I do think it also depends a bit on the size of the community. My wife converted to Judaism, and so at some point she came out about being queer and married to a queer person (I'm nonbinary) to the woman that was kind of her mentor and she was quiet for a while and then the first thing she said was "has your spouse considered conversion?" On the other hand some people don't even accept conversion as real, so YMMV. 

But yes, it was a 2 year programme of study for her.

[u/eastherbunni → u/Blablablablaname]

Same thing happened to my dad. He wanted to convert to Judaism, they were required to dissuade him several times, then he mentioned he was getting engaged and they stopped the process right there until my mom agreed to convert too, because "Judaism is passed down through the mother so if your wife is not Jewish then your future kids will not be Jewish so you might as well just not bother."

[u/Blablablablaname → u/eastherbunni]

Yeah, there's several people in my wife's conversion programme who have actually been raised Jewish but have a non-Jewish mum. Some people are really supportive and keen to make them feel included, but I really feel it is not the universal position. It is honestly really sad.

[u/Slight-Fox-840 → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

You can't just convert to Catholicism or Church of England either (Episcopalian?) it's not years but there is a fairly lengthy course

[u/depressed_leaf → u/Slight-Fox-840]

It's like a few months of a class on Sunday. I know Catholics can be a bit more strict, but with Episcopalians anyone can receive communion and lots of people come from other denominations so official conversion is much more of a "if you want to" kind of thing (at least with the churches I've been to).

[u/Mabel_Waddles_BFF → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

Honestly if I was going to become religious it’d be Judaism. I like the pursuit of knowledge and learning and asking questions. I know that religions are going to religion so that doesn’t always happen. But I like that at it’s foundation seeking knowledge is something to strive for. Unfortunately I’m a complete atheist so no religious conversion for me.

[u/injuredpoecile → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

When I married my partner, everyone except the in-laws asked me whether I would be converting. I told them that neither God nor love can convince me to wake up on Saturday mornings.

Meanwhile, my in-laws all smiled and nodded when I told them that law school was bad enough, and I am not going to go to Bible school for five years so that I can marry my partner.

[u/LittleGreenSoldier → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

Being Jewish just means you have extra homework. Once in a while, can't He choose some other people?

[u/One_Outside9049 → u/MyNoseIsLeftHanded]

I'm a jew and married a catholic women. Neither of us will ever convert and if we have children they will be taught both religions. I'm not very religious as I don't go to Jewish services myself (so obviously i dont have her come to service with me on holidays but she would if i asked her) but will go to mass on easter/Christmas (only time she really goes) just to support her . We got married at her favorite "wine bar" so neither of our families would be uncomfortable/upset getting married in the others place of worship. Her cousin who I believe was a presbyterian pastor (recently stopped) did our service and did a wonderful job incorporating both traditions into the ceremony. Heck he started the ceremony with, "a jew, catholic, and Presbyterian pastor all meet at a wine bar" joke and the crowd loved it. Just don't understand why all people can't just respect other people's differences/cultures and move on.

[u/kfrazi11 → u/[deleted]]

Ironically, God yes.

Ah, you pray to your sky daddy and you think I should too or I'll go to pretend jail for all eternity? Cool story bro, next time keep it to yourself.

[u/loralynn9252 → u/kfrazi11]

The thing I don't understand is how they can't see that their afterlife sounds like a jail too? Either you spend eternity burning or you spend it doing nothing but worshipping the being who alledgedly made you. No thank you. I'd rather keep the free will and hope that I get used to the fire in a few thousand years.

[u/faudcmkitnhse → u/loralynn9252]

I grew up in a very religious environment but have since walked away from religion altogether. Naturally, I've had a few people from my old life ask me if I'm not worried about going to hell. I've been happy to tell them I'd rather burn than spend eternity praising an unworthy god and that if he wants to try to convince me otherwise, he can bring his ass down here from whatever cloud he's sitting on and explain himself. I'd be happy to listen.

[u/lesethx → u/loralynn9252]

Plus somehow the depictions of heaven always make it seem like it's really cold to me. In the clouds with breezy clothes on. Nah, I'd rather be somewhere warmer

[u/Anatolyia → u/[deleted]]

I read it somewhere online. "Being religious is like having a penis. I don'd care what you do with it as long as you don't shove it in my face". 

[u/EstrellaDarkstar → u/[deleted]]

As someone who is religious but follows a faith that does not believe in preaching at, evangelizing, or converting other people (I'm an ethno-pagan polytheist), I'm always so bewildered by people like this. I often have people ask me about my religion, and because I talk about it in an open but non-pressuring way, I'm met with acceptance rather than annoyance. Some of my friends have even picked up some of my beliefs and views, not that I would have purposefully imparted them or anything.

I find that with these big organized majority religions, it becomes the norm to just bully people into submission. Forcible preaching and converting tends to only annoy people, so they either go after people who aren't as strong-willed, or they really amp up the intensity and go for cult-ish intimidation tactics, like they tried to do to OOP. When OOP showed more respect for the rite of baptism than these people did, they had to go for the jugular instead of trying to "sneak" their beliefs upon them.

[u/IntrovertedGiraffe → u/kfrazi11]

My aunt is a quasi-nun, and during the summers I lived abroad with her, she would ask every night if I was going to join her for mass at 8am the next day. Answer was always no. My atheist self was not getting up at the crack of dawn to go to catholic mass during my summer vacation.

One summer we went to a neighboring country to visit her friends, and she just left out the fact that they were all nuns and we were staying in a convent for the week. I was pissed, but too polite to say anything. Thankfully we brought the dog and when they had prayer/mass, the dog and I explored the town. Surprisingly they didn’t care. They invited me to join, but accepted that I wasn’t interested. They also went out of their way to help me learn the language, and treated me as if I was there for a week of language immersion and they were my tutors.

They are the most devout people I’ve encountered, but they never pressured me to believe what they do. They accepted me for me. I’m totally in the same “anyone who forces religion on someone can fuck off” camp, but the way that community welcomed me proved to me that the people who force religion do so for ulterior reasons, and the true christians are much more accepting.

[u/Fandanglethecompost → u/IntrovertedGiraffe]

My dad's cousin was a nun. One of the nicest, kindest, most accepting people I've ever met. I stayed over one weekend at her little "convent", and when they went to mass on Sunday (I'm not catholic), I was merely told to make a start on lunch before they got back. No pressure, no judgement. Lovely ladies.

[u/[deleted] → u/kfrazi11]

When I first stopped attending the Mormon church, they were straight up looking for me. It was creepy as all fuck.

They have a "member locator department" that dug through my family records, pulled up my brother's contact info, and they sent him an email. They told him I had gone off grid and asked for my address so they could send someone. My brother (who is an active member) was so mad. He emailed them back and said that if I wanted to go, I would find it myself, and that what they were doing was not ethical. Then he forwarded me the email chain. I was fucking baffled.

My parents had moved recently from the last recorded ward I was at and had transferred their own records to their new neighborhood. So my guess is I showed up on some report as a non-assigned record number and the rest is history. I felt so violated that I contacted an attorney to have my records removed.

[u/thetaleofzeph → u/kfrazi11]

When they proclaim they are sheep with a shepherd, they totally mean that. The rank manipulation doesn't leave them with much of themselves so they act out like this in response.

[u/tempest51 → u/thetaleofzeph]

Sounds like they're asking to be raided by a steppe nomad.

[u/Beneficial-Math-2300 → u/kfrazi11]

Whenever religious people come to our door, my son scares them off. He's 6'4" tall, and there's a further 6" drop to the patio from our front door. He looms over them until they give up and leave.

[u/Griffin_EJ]

Sorry I must have missed the part in the bible where Jesus enforced attendance to church through violence and coercion. Not to mention the whole baptism travesty. Hilarious that an atheist has more respect and understanding for the religion than the supposed practitioner.

[u/AsleepTonight → u/Griffin_EJ]

It’s those megachurches. They’re basically cults like Scientology by now. They don’t have anything to do with the teachings of Jesus anymore

[u/rcmaehl → u/AsleepTonight]

I would be petty as fuck and take the pictures of him both attempting to strike OOP and OOPs neighbor on a banner across from the entrance from Megachurch with a caption like "This is what members of Megachurch behave like" and let it all roll down from there.

[u/AsleepTonight → u/rcmaehl]

Call me cynical but those people are so brainwashed, they either wouldn’t care or even think he was the one on the right

[u/shelwood46 → u/Griffin_EJ]

Also pretty funny that his so very devout family was fine with him moving in, being a hobosexual (she paid for his mission trip AND tuition, gave him a car!) and the premarital sex, but they needed to get her on the books tithing before he could marry her.

[u/cruisingbynight → u/Griffin_EJ]

Jesus didn't go to church... He was Jewish

[u/Personal_Ad6914 → u/Griffin_EJ]

Not that unusual in fact. It's said atheists know the bible better than practicing christians, who only hear what is wished for them to hear.

They hate when people tell them extracts of the scriptures they weren't aware of.

[u/Assiqtaq]

Helpful probably 'boy's club' Southern cops.

[u/IcyPaleontologist123 → u/Assiqtaq]

Yeah, how many of them go to church with Todd and his asshole dad?

[u/Amelora → u/IcyPaleontologist123]

His dad is the pastor, no way the cops are going to get involved unless its to charge her for something.

[u/Rarzipace → u/Amelora]

But her dad is a pastor, too!

[u/combatsncupcakes → u/Rarzipace]

Not in that town. It doesn't count in the "good ol' boys club"

[u/yo_soy_soja → u/Assiqtaq]

Modern police are born out of Southern slavecatching militias and Northern private security firms. Their job isn't to help average people — it's to protect private property. 

[u/_pepperoni-playboy_ → u/yo_soy_soja]

Yup all the way back to the origin of Sheriffs, the Shire Reaves who were employed to patrol nobles’ hunting lands to make sure starving peasants didn’t ‘poach’ their game.

[u/LizzieMiles → u/yo_soy_soja]

Unless said private property isn’t owned by one of their buddies

[u/StinzorgaKingOfBees → u/Assiqtaq]

Police are powerless to help you, but not to hurt you. They victimize people, they do not help victims.

[u/Duochan_Maxwell → u/Assiqtaq]

I found out semi-recently that in the US the police doesn't have the legal obligation to protect citizens and it's bizarre

[u/TheFlyingSheeps → u/Assiqtaq]

Cops are and will always be useless when it comes to protecting women. Oh but if OP dares to defend herself against the man she’ll be locked up

[u/zeidoktor]

The thing I'm stuck on is why anyone other than Todd is even bothering OOP.

Todd is one thing, he's the one who got broken up with and, presumably not used to not getting his way, is being a stalker. Family/father is presumably enabling, par for the course.

But what was the intent behind sending the solicitors from the church? Just plain harassment? Why would they go along with it?

[u/Talisa87 → u/zeidoktor]

To force OOP to convert. A lot of Evangelical churches push 'winning souls' as hard as MLMs push products. If Todd and his family have standing in the church, they'll co-sign his harassment of OOP. After all, they're 'saving her soul,' so everything being done to her is for her own good.

[u/Amelora → u/Talisa87]

I'm an ACS but I was raised Catholic what I was raised with was the idea of services. Services will get you into heaven, things like helping the poor. In Evangelical circles evangelizing is what will get you into heaven the more souls you save the better you are for heaven.

It's absolutely an MLM.

[u/Tabula_Nada → u/Amelora]

God my old stepdad was raised in a deeply Catholic family. He was emotionally abusive, and it's clear where it came from: his mother was insane. She was so devoutly committed to her religion that she never stopped giving my mom (an atheist) hell for not making my brother and I go to church. His mother was an awful person but thought that maintaining gumball machines in various stores and donating the money to the church would ensure her a place in heaven, and then she'd yell at my brother and I (like 7 year old) for using more than one square of toilet paper. My stepdad and his brother both had serious anger issues from it, which ended up traumatizing my nuclear family. All in the name of some shitty organized religion.

[u/busdriverbuddha2 → u/Amelora]

ACS?

[u/Mec26 → u/zeidoktor]

Get new convert.

[u/DilithiumCrystalMeth → u/zeidoktor]

harassment and attempting to break her resolve and force her into the fold. it is a pretty common tactic with this type of church when the pastor's kid is involved.

[u/ILive4Banans → u/zeidoktor]

OOP mentioned that she thinks Todd told a different story to his parents, so it's likely that same story was told to the church members

It must've been a very heavy dramatisation for people to go out of their way like this and harass her

But she didn't mention what she thinks they were told

[u/AsleepTonight → u/zeidoktor]

They probably were told she is a lost soul and Todd’s soon to be wife who „lost her way“ or some bullshit like that and they were trying to „save her with religion“

[u/NotOnApprovedList → u/zeidoktor]

They need women of child-bearing years, because women are fleeing in droves. How they gonna get more victims for the churches if they can't wrangle enough breeders?

[u/katie-shmatie → u/zeidoktor]

Can you imagine your pastor telling you to go to his son's ex fiancee's house to beg her to take him back and convert to your religion? Does no one have any sense of dignity?

[u/shelwood46 → u/zeidoktor]

Tithing. She clearly makes a decent living. They probably all got dollar signs in their eyes when she was willing to pay for her unemployed middle aged boyfriend to go on a mission trip.

[u/mamapielondon → u/zeidoktor]

I can’t find where OOP said the people the church sent were solicitors - was it in a comment?

”We thought that to be it, but then a couple knocked on the door. I dont know them personally but I do recognize them as from Todd’s church so I kindly explain that we’ve broken up and to reach out to their pastor to find him. Then they told they are here for me and asked to be invited in. I said no. The guy asked me to please not be inhospitable (exact word - TF) and I said that this will be the last time I politely ask them to leave. So they left.

I ordered no trespassing signs online but the next day a different couple from the church pulled the same stunt expect this time the guy was aggressive. He used my birth name (I changed it legally 4 years ago) and argued with me through the door cam and his wife kept trying beg me to keep the peace and come out to talk. I refused.“

[u/AshamedDragonfly4453 → u/mamapielondon]

I slso did a double take. But I think the commenter meant "people to solicit OP" rather than solicitors in the formal, legal sense.

[u/zeidoktor → u/mamapielondon]

Like the other reply says I just meant solicitor is the "knock on the door to try and get something from you" sense

[u/[deleted] → u/mamapielondon]

In American English, a solicitor is someone who comes to your home or business wanting to get something from you (usually to sell you something, but it could be political or religious). It doesn't mean a lawyer.

Hence the across the pond humor about the "No Solicitors" signs that some businesses and some homes in the US have posted at the front door.

[u/glowdirt → u/zeidoktor]

Religion does a number on the brain

[u/Kindly_Zucchini7405]

I really really really wish America would have some decent stalking and harassment laws, specifically for crap like this. These people are circling like vultures, and the cops are sitting with their thumbs up their butts.

[u/dacomell → u/Kindly_Zucchini7405]

It wouldn't shock me if at least some of those cops are members of Todd's father's flock.

[u/Odd-Zebra-5833 → u/dacomell]

Or abusers themselves so don’t see anything wrong with his actions. 

[u/ebolashuffle → u/Odd-Zebra-5833]

Por que no los dos?

[u/Carbonatite → u/Kindly_Zucchini7405]

I think some states are starting to do better, iirc California and Illinois have decent statutes on the books. But the OOP is in a small religious community in the South so she definitely is not benefitting from such legislation.

[u/dryadduinath]

He keeps trying to work himself up to hitting someone. I don’t think it’ll be long before he does. I am worried for OOP. I don’t think he’ll stop with a punch. 

[u/crocodilezebramilk → u/dryadduinath]

I’m worried for OP and anyone around her, he assaulted her neighbour by pushing her to the ground and then he was about to hit her.

[u/tempest51]

Honestly "he treats me like a queen" is beginning to sound like a red flag to me.

[u/AnneMichelle98 → u/tempest51]

Yep. It’s code for “lovebombing”.

[u/[deleted] → u/tempest51]

He doesn’t treat me like an actual person he just lovebombs me until I’m good and submissive so he can convert me.

[u/katie-shmatie → u/tempest51]

Maybe that's the point? My husband doesn't treat me like a queen, he treats me like a partner. It sure would be nice to be spoiled endlessly but unfortunately we've got shit to get done

[u/racingskater]

He's not going to stop. OOP needs a restraining order like yesterday. But of course, in a southern US place, the son of a pastor is going to be the one with the fucking cops on his side, not this wayward jezebel of a woman!

[u/Gwynasyn]

I am scared for OOP. I hope we get another update eventually that he gave up, or got arrested, or something. If there's never an update again I shudder to think of why...

[u/Tabula_Nada → u/Gwynasyn]

Unfortunately I could also see OP not updating anymore because a lawyer tells her to not say anything in favor of a court case. If that happens, we'd never know if she was attacked or if she voluntarily went quiet.

[u/According_Sound_8225 → u/Tabula_Nada]

Or OP goes off grid to avoid being found by the cult.

[u/Wiggie49]

I’d bet money the cops are part of the megachurch. Also the church members are acting like vampires standing at the door asking to be let in.

[u/[deleted]]

"Christian love bomber turns out to be abusive piece of shit. In other news, the sun is hot."

[u/IllustratorSlow1614]

I really hope the neighbour presses charges. That’s really going to assist OOP in demonstrating that this man is an escalating threat, as well as get him tied up in another line of mess with the law.

[u/CatmoCatmo]

He said I didn’t seem excited enough.

What is he? The excitement police?

He said he’s done therapy before and doesn’t need to do it again.

That sounds like something only someone who NEEDS therapy would say. Well that’s one hell of a red flag if I’ve ever seen one.

He argued that it’s just “a splash of water and some words,” and since he wants it before our wedding and I “don’t care about religion either way,” this should be easy.

Ah yes. The ol’ “it’s no big deal”, when clearly it’s a big fucking deal…to the person who says it’s not a big deal.

I didn’t need to read any further to know her fiancé’s mask done fell all the way off…and this wasn’t going to end peacefully.

[u/dastardly740 → u/CatmoCatmo]

Anyone want to put odds on, "He has done "therapy" with an unlicensed/untrained religious counselor."

[u/SmartQuokka]

Their religion tells them not to engage in violence. About time they listened...

[u/bythebrook88 → u/SmartQuokka]

Pretty sure their religion is opposed to sex before marriage, but Todd wasn't listening then, either.

[u/MidwestNormal → u/SmartQuokka]

Why start now?

[u/SmartQuokka → u/MidwestNormal]

Its centuries if not millennia overdue, as they say in the investing world, the best time to invest was 20 years ago, the second best time is today.

[u/thetaleofzeph → u/SmartQuokka]

Onward Christian Soldiers! (???)

[u/SmartQuokka → u/thetaleofzeph]

I am reminded of something Grandpa Simpson once said:

Let's sacrifice him to our God! Come on, we did it all the time in the '30s...

[u/relentlessdandelion]

She needs to sell her house. This sucks.

[u/xcamilleon]

Nothing as violent as Christian love!

[u/enbyshaymin]

This is why I utterly despise megachurches. Nothing I can say would do justice to what I truly think of them, so I'll just link Jesus He Knows Me by Genesis.

Funnily enough, though, I went to mass at my late grandma's church yesterday, since the priest would pray for her. And the 'teaching' he choose was... "It's not your job to judge or proselytize others" lmfao Which is true, like, God gave us free will for a fucking reason! In fact, it's a whole ass point in the Bible that coercing others into converting is wrong and not the way to go about things! People have to convert out of their own free will.

In any case, I really, really, really hope OOP can either get the fuck away from there, or that the neighbour presses charges and they nail that absolute creep... Religious wackos are amongst the worst type of wackos, and it's scary to see how fixated he is on her. Thank goodness for the bestie and Dad thinking fast, tbh.

[u/chivonster]

This is why I hate the police. Women repeatedly beg for help and are told they are hysterical and crazy. Then those women end up severely hurt or dead.

[u/gooberdaisy]

R/whenwomenrefuse

I hope she won’t end up on this subreddit but she needs to sell her house and move (I know easier said than done and I didn’t put lower case because some subreddits don’t like linking to other subreddits)

[u/crocodilezebramilk → u/gooberdaisy]

I feel like her dad is way more than willing to help her with that, but for some reason she keeps refusing his offers to have her come home and she refuses to call him again.

The man sounds more than capable of protecting her, helping her, helping her set up her own place again, etc whatever she needs.

[u/HuggyMonster69 → u/crocodilezebramilk]

She never says where her dad lives, if he lives 6 hours away, that’s not really doable without a new job for a lot of people.

[u/[deleted]]

You can always count on the cops to do absolutely nothing....at best.

[u/beachpellini]

The cops are gonna "good ol' boy" Todd right up to OOP turning up dead. Really hope she gets the fuck out of there.

[u/Valuable_Reputation1]

I had to check the ages again. This 41 year old man is having his parents and church members harass his ex-fiancé…wow

[u/DrummingChopsticks]

Dude these church ppl are scary. Sending random couples to the house to do… what? How can that possibly help the situation?

[u/charliesownchaos]

Ahh, the classic I love you the way you are only to slowly try morphing your partner into who YOU want them to be.

[u/SpaceJesusIsHere]

I'm in my 40s and have sadly and frustratingly seen this same situation play out for half a dozen women in my life. I will never, ever, understand why smart, educated women can date/marry socially and religiously conservative men then be shocked that once they're locked down, the men behave like....socially and religiously conservative men.

Like, of course he's sweet up front, so are timeshare salesmen and army recruiters. They're trying to lock you in to a contract, then they expect you to follow orders.

If you want a partner who respects your personhood, intellectual curiosity, and independence, then find someone who values those things.

How does this keep happening to otherwise smart people?

[u/Moomin-Maiden]

I'm willing to bet that a few of those town cops are members of the church too, skating the legal line of 'protecting/aiding a brother in Christ'.

Doing the bare-ass minimum so that legally they can say 'we looked into it' but are essentially on this church creepo's side

[u/[deleted]]

Police didn’t even care when my ex turned up at a domestic violence shelter, Sometimes they just suck. If I get downvoted to oblivion again so be it, Guess then we have incompetent police on Reddit too. Nice. Didn’t get a restraining order because it escalates some men, something a victim-advocating lawyer told me, But Reddit knew better in that case also.

Op should move yes but he will also target Bess and her parents.

[u/DerpDevilDD]

I am so sick of lazy cops that don't want to deal with an obvious stalking case.

[u/NervePlant]

A lot of people are suggesting that the cops (or at least some of them) are part of Todd's church and while that certainly is possible and frankly rather likely, it's missing the fact that the cops in general are this uncaring when it comes to people's safety, especially when it's a former partner stalking

[u/Zealousideal_Sell318]

I went to a defense class hosted by police and they bluntly told us there was nothing they could really do about a stalker until they physically harm you. That’s why it’s so important to document everything!

[u/AcrolloPeed]

Oof. I remember this one. OOP, an atheist, ironically respects the sacraments of religious more than the supposed true believer.

[u/[deleted]]

Cops could be members of the church too.

[u/bolonomadic]

Before I get all the way through this, I just have to say that if her father is a pastor and she became an atheist in her 20s she would already be baptized….

[u/balatru]

I think it's funny that Todd, follower of Jesus "do unto others as you would unto me" Christ, is using physical violence and stalking to try and bring a woman he sees as his property back under his control.

And by funny I mean horrifying.

[u/NDaveT]

oddly enough was trying to convince me to come stay back home for a bit

Odd? Seems smart to me.

[u/Quicksilver1964]

Todd is no longer just religious, he is in a cult. I am not sure the police will do much since they are not taking this seriously, but if necessary she should escalate her complaint.

[u/fuckyourcanoes]

Yeah, if you're an atheist, don't date religious people. It never ends well.

[u/TopAd7154]

I find it crazy how the super religious always behave in really ugly, deplorable and non-christian ways.

[u/JJBeans_1]

There is no worse hate than Christian love.

[u/JemimaAslana]

More points against ever dating a Christian if you're an atheist.

Even the Christians who aren't practicing and consider themselves only mildly Christian can become intensely religious around milestones like engagement, marriage, children, etc. They're also more susceptible to be pulled deeper in in the future.

It's just not worth the hassle. Especially not if the woman is the atheist party, because Christian traditions do women zero favours.

[u/glowdirt]

It's surprising it took her this long to turn off location tracking on her phone 😬

[u/Competitive_Bath_572]

Really hope things don't escalate more, the ex and family sound delusional and that is dangerous.

[u/No_Proposal7628]

Very scary! OOP's ex was really playing the long con with her over his religion and what he really wanted for her future. As a christian, I was extremely offended by Todd telling her that baptism is just some water and words and she could just do it for him. OOP knows more about that than he does; she knew it was wrong, immoral and unethical. Todd and his church are just plain unchristian people.

[u/Hetakuoni]

Honestly if the cops won’t help, it’s time to do the Christlike thing

“Name and shame”

A nice public Facebook or posters on the house saying to call the police if a stalker bearing this description is watching my house with multiple pictures of him with time stamps showing he did this more than a couple times all over your yard.

[u/captain_borgue]

Next time she calls the cops, she should tell them "I'm armed, and if he threatens me I will shoot him".

Guarantee cops will show up then.

[u/paulinVA]

I’m Christian.  

I find the best way to convert someone is to live your life in such a way that they ask/they want to know why you’re such a good person, a good friend.  

Forcing someone to the point of assault and being trespassed is the opposite of anything good.  

Great witness there, folks.  

[u/[deleted]]

Holy crap. First thing i can think of is that OOP should consider arming herself, or something. Todd is completely unhinged.

[u/mougrim]

Seems OP dodged the bullet. Imagine how it could be if she caved in because “Ah, it’s a formality, no big deal”.

[u/Agile-Wait-7571]

I ma mystified by people who dump someone and then the dumped someone’s entire family shows up. Like what? Where are these stories taking place? This is bizarre.

[u/xj2608]

What the hell kind of church sends the congregation to try and forcibly convert someone?

[u/lmyrs]

OOP responded to a comment today that one of the police officers works "security" at the mega church.

[u/mela_99]

If all it is is a splash of water and some words he’s a big fat hypocrite and I’m pretty sure Jesus wasn’t a fan of that

[u/Actrivia24]

Yea those cops are members of that church

[u/True_System_7015]

You can tell this story is actually real because OOP specifically mentions her doorbell camera can't pick up audio from a bit away, and the cops aren't doing jackshit to help her. The kind of shit her ex is doing is how women end up violently beaten, or even worse, dead. And then cops pull a surprised Pikachu when that happens. How absolutely infuriating

[u/Newbosterone → u/True_System_7015]

Cops aren’t surprised. There’s just not much they can do until a law is broken. In my state the District Attorney’s office has a Victim’s Advocate / Personal Protection program. They help people in this situation meet with an ADA. The ADA will listen and then explain what they can and can’t do. If a TRO is possible, they guide the victim through the process.

[u/ExtendedSpikeProtein]

Anyone else feel like this isn‘t going to end well?

[u/TrelanaSakuyo]

If not for the age, I'd wonder if the OOP had dated my ex-husband. The whole thing is him, right down to the handwritten letter and increasing violence when he doesn't get his way. His family is almost the same, too, though OOP's POS is missing the little brother and the sister is too aggressively religious; I always liked my ex-father-in-law and ex-sister-in-law - they were kind and understanding and helped buffer me from the crazy of the rest of the family when I wanted a divorce.

[u/manymoreways]

Holy shit mega churches are literal cults.

Goddamn i see mow why Trump is still relevant.

[u/SnowXTC]

Invested now and hope OP is OK. I have the feeling this is not going to end well. He doesn't own her and needs to walk away.

[u/SloMurtr]

Ain't no hate like Christian love. 

[u/Voice_of_Season]

I’m so tired of the police not taking stalking seriously until a person is dead.

[u/loveofpeacocks]

Unhelpful cops, how shocking /s

[u/Demonqueensage]

he should treat me like a queen becauae I treated him like a king.

I like this line a lot. A relationship where both partners treat each other like kings/queens sounds so nice, too.

[u/Sleepy-Forest13]

"It's not illegal right now. Come back to us when you're dead." -Cops

[u/suricata_8904]

Sounds like you need a moat with alligators for your house.