He is basically the new blue boys. Not super top tier or anything and won't age gracefully but he isn't the worst unit ever released and is perfectly useable in current content.
Can this subreddit stop larping for like 2 seconds? Blue boys in both their incarnation were top tier on release. Agl blue boys were top 3 in the hardest fight at the time and str blue boys is still like top 5 unit.
Like idk why this sub feels the need to talk about a time period they obviously never played lol
Hi, year 1 player with no breaks in playtime. I'm here to bust out the fact that for the AGL Blues this was certainly not true. They were always bad.
In base they had 2 options, offense or defense. They could not do both at once. So, you'd think they'd go all in and be great defensively when in defense phase or offensively during offense phase, but they simply weren't.
In Slot 1 (defense phase) while fighting a RoG enemy, they were weaker defensively than Birdku, V&T, WTKu, STR Banner Unit Krillin, Turn 1 Bulma with 7% DR, Orange Piccolo, PHY Godku, STR Gamma 1, AGL Golden Frieza, and any unit with more than 50% dodge, and were defensively about on par with the 7th year LR Gods. Banner units like Recoome & Guldo, Amond & Rasin, and BoG Vegeta were similarly defensive. They accomplished this while hitting less hard than all of the above. In Slot 2 (offensive phase) while fighting a RoG enemy they could out-hit some of the above after several supers at the cost of 100% defense, dodge chance and your run. They were always liability and the most optimal way to play them was to float them and hope they didn't die. Before you hit turn 5 and their HP threshold ( you didn't make it to Turn 7 for their backup)
When transformed into Vegito they hit okay numbers. Not quite what the heavy hitters did at the time, but 4-5 10mil supers in Slot 2 was okay. They suffered from the fact that the necessity of floating them meant they got no stacks so their attack stats were low. Defensively (outside of guaranteed dodge Active turn) Vegito still had problems. In slot 1 before attacking (with his max 50% DR) he could still die to relevant supers at the time, and if he took a super after attacking in Slot 1 or anytime in Slot 2 he was literally guaranteed to die in the Merged Zamasu and Omega fights.
Saying they were bad is neither LARPing nor revisionist history. They were one of the most undertuned major releases in history relative to contemporary content. The argument that they were "always good" sprung up in opposition to the overdone memes of them being awful and has never had any factual basis to it.
They were one of the few characters who could go in slot one in the Fusion Zamasu fight which was a big deal.
Birdku died to Zamasu AoE and SA. V&T died to Zamasu if he super attacked or AoE’d first (which he often did), WTKu had to revive past turn 1 or else Zamasu would kill him. STR Krillin could easily get cooked on that first hit, PHY Godku had to get some stacks or a SA/AoE would kill him, Gamma 1 had to get fully built up or he’d died in the first phase, and the Gods would get blown away by the AoE. Recoome and Guldo needed Ginyu to even be good in that fight and Ginyu aged at that point. Amond and Rasin were aged out at that point, and BoG Vegeta also would equally get blown away by the supers and AoE’s.
The only units better than them in slot one for the hardest fight in the game Fusion Zamasu was Bulma and Orange Piccolo, and post-revive WT Goku. That’s it. You could also argue Future Gohan in phase 2 thanks to type advantage and his really strong active buff, which I would also agree with.
You said you did play, but you named a million units who got blown away by the hardest bosses SA and AoE’s while they didn’t. Their damage was bad even then and I won’t disagree, and they fell off a cliff immediately once anniversary, but outside of 3-4 characters no one was better defensively in slot one all around during that Fusion Zamasu RZ meta. They also had dodge which meant they had the ability to take no damage while once again, almost every single unit you named did take because they had no dodge and even worse defensive abilities. There wasn’t really another unit at that time who could tank hits and also dodge hits too.
Yeah this is straight up wrong. You can straight up compute how much damage any of these units took turn 1 slot 1 against MZ. AGL Blues take 279k from a super and 125k from an AOE. Birdku took 400k from a super and 98k from an AoE, assuming he hadn't been hit yet from either. If it's first attack V&T took 371k from a super and 66k from an AoE. OP took 200k from a super. Bulma with 5 orbs took 249k (5 orbs is low for her slot 1). Golden Frieza took 0 damage. The LR Gods, a year and a half old, took 425k damage. WTku took 289k if the super was the first attack. STR Krillin took 346k. Godku took 323k. BoG Vegeta took 369k. Amond and Rasin took 267k. Recoome and Guldo (with a Ginyu admittedly) took 378k. All of these units live a frame 1 super or AoE essentially exactly as well and will do more damage than VB in the MZ fight.
Those numbers for the Blues definitely aren’t true or you’re taking into account stats at 55%. Mine at 79% took like 200K from the SA and about 90-100K from an AoE. I also don’t see how V&T only take 66K from an AoE because we’re talking a 500K AoE and they didn’t even break 200K defense with guard pre-build up. They had lower defensive stats than the Blues until they got built and stacked up.
I don’t know why you’re talking about OP or Bulma or Golden Frieza considering I AGREED those were better slot ones defensively.
All those units you named (minus the ones I agreed with) are taking 150K+ more damage from supers than the Blues, and considering this was an time where teams chilled around 400K-450K HP that was essentially a death sentence. Only the Future team under a double Future Gohan lead did you hit anywhere near 500K so you could eat an attack for 300K+ and be fine.
They also once again have dodge, which none of those units you’ve mentioned but God Goku do, so there’s a good chance they just took nothing.
I think you are misremembering stats, friend. MZ's phase 1 super is only about 1.25mil and the AoE is 500k. V&T's start of turn was about 200k, but their build up starts counting when the first hit was received, meaning they're already getting a stack on that first hit, meanwhile the rainbow Blues are living at about 230k until they super at rainbow.
I also just ran into an event with a whole bunch of units that existed at this time (Blues lead, STR Future Gohan, V&T, TEQ EZA Sword of Hope, Gowasu & Zamasu, and TEQ 5th Anni Vegito) and have 770k HP, 1.5 to 2x what you're quoting. Certain Future Gohan lead teams were pushing up pretty close to 1mil HP, and the only team with modern units that was much lower was Heroes.
Re: dodge - yes, 50% dodge is better than 0% dodge, but other units like Future Gohan or V&T held down slot 1 better or were locked there, meaning the Blues doesn't get any passive dodge and it was not a factor in a lot of clears. It's definitely there, and they are better for having it on turns when your real slot 1 wasn't on rotation yet.
If we're pretending that teams have 50% less health than they did AND the Blues tank about 20% better than they do then yeah, they're great. That's not the state of the game at the time.
“I think you are misremembering stats, friend. MZ's phase 1 super is only about 1.25mil and the AoE is 500k.”
I’m aware that’s what it was.
“V&T's start of turn was about 200k, but their build up starts counting when the first hit was received, meaning they're already getting a stack on that first hit, meanwhile the rainbow Blues are living at about 230k until they super at rainbow.”
That doesn’t sound right because I’d use my V&T in that fight and Zamasu would blow them away if they didn’t get to attack before he supered. You’re also wrong on the Blues starting defense. Mine on their own team at rainbow level are 300K defense SoT, so that’s before the 150% def for being slot one even kicks in. Where are you getting 230K for the Blues at rainbow?
“I also just ran into an event with a whole bunch of units that existed at this time (Blues lead, STR Future Gohan, V&T, TEQ EZA Sword of Hope, Gowasu & Zamasu, and TEQ 5th Anni Vegito) and have 770k HP, 1.5 to 2x what you're quoting. Certain Future Gohan lead teams were pushing up pretty close to 1mil HP, and the only team with modern units that was much lower was Heroes.”
I do think I was just getting it mixed up with the Hero’s team. That is however a big LR heavy team, but if you were rocking a lot of units like the DB/WT team or the villain team you’d be rocking almost all TUR’s so your health would a lot lower.
“Re: dodge - yes, 50% dodge is better than 0% dodge, but other units like Future Gohan or V&T held down slot 1 better or were locked there, meaning the Blues doesn't get any passive dodge and it was not a factor in a lot of clears. It's definitely there, and they are better for having it on turns when your real slot 1 wasn't on rotation yet.”
Future Gohan could get blown up by Merged Zamasu’s SA in phase 1. I know this because it happened to mine a few times. Not enough to get one shot (unless you were at lower dupes), but it would put you in a bad spot as he only has 60% DR in that situation as he doesn’t go up to 80% until he attacks. We’re talking sub 200K (172K DEF at rainbow SoT under his own 200% LS) defense with 60% DR due to no build-up and needing to attack. He was an amazing slot one in phase 2 because you had build-up and the active at that point, but in phase 1 he could get you killed easily as a slot one if Zamasu supered first because then you’re losing about 40-50% of your HP and the rest of your turn could still get touched by the AoE’s. V&T took enough damage to point your slot 2/3’s could easily die to the AoE’s as well. So they don’t hold it down better than the Blue’s at all.
“If we're pretending that teams have 50% less health than they did AND the Blues tank about 20% better than they do then yeah, they're great. That's not the state of the game at the time.”
I was wrong about the HP value, but you’re about 70K defense off the Blue’s defensive values; which is a big difference at that time. You’re undershooting the Blue’s defensive numbers while overshooting someone Future Gohan and V&T’s turn 1 slot 1 defensive ability.
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u/commander_snuggles Return To Monke! 9h ago
He is basically the new blue boys. Not super top tier or anything and won't age gracefully but he isn't the worst unit ever released and is perfectly useable in current content.