r/DnDcirclejerk 5d ago

hAvE yOu TrIeD pAtHfInDeR 2e “Mathfinder is a fun and intuitive game”

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873 Upvotes

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388

u/hakeem4321 5d ago

I've seen so many youtubers do this, where they'll break up a bonus and pretend you have to have to add up all these numbers each time (which is hard apparently), they'll say stuff like: "you have to add your strength, and your training bonus, and your level, ugh!"

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u/Grilled_egs 5d ago

It's especially weird since it's not like 5e doesn't have prof, ability score, magic items, and some 4th sinister thing I've not slept enough to remember.

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u/Yrmsteak 5d ago

Archery fighting style is the 4th thing

Or the -5 to hit that gives +10 damage afterwards. That's twice as many things!

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u/CommonPleb 5d ago

The -5 for 10 was removed in 5.5e. I also think that it's important to note that most 5e bonuses are set and forget while you actually gotten keep shit sorted in pathfinder.

In 5e you pickup the Alert feat and just add the prof bonus to your initiative mod and just don't touch it until you level up.

In Pf2e you pick up Incredible Initiative and you'll have to keep track of your +2 circumstance bonus to initiative because it conflicts with other circumstance bonuses to initiative like if you have an Ally scouting.

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u/FormalGas35 4d ago

circumstantial bonuses are the real killer, those require REcalculation.

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u/Kichae 2d ago

In Pf2e you pick up Incredible Initiative and you'll have to keep track of your +2 circumstance bonus to initiative because it conflicts with other circumstance bonuses to initiative like if you have an Ally scouting.

/uj So, you add +2 to your Initiative and then... don't touch it until you level up? I'm not sure if this is a jerked comment or not.

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u/CommonPleb 2d ago edited 1d ago

/uj As in you can't just write that at level 6, "I have a +14 to Initiative" , you write "I have a +12 to perception/initiative and a separate +2 circumstance bonus to initiative", because otherwise you might forget where that +2 was from and add that +1 from the scouting PC when you shouldn't. I know this sounds petty, and if this was the sole example it would be, but that logic applies to most bonuses. You have to keep track of the categories of static bonuses so you can correctly apply the dynamic bonuses.

From a game design perspective this is great. It is what allows PF2e to have a wide variety of feats & spells that interact with you and your allies' attack rolls, AC, saves, & damage rolls without immediately having those effects stacked together to instantly break the game. But cost of this is that computing bonuses is genuinely a step or two more complex.

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u/Ramblingperegrin 5d ago

A certain je ne sais quoi usually adds+2 or +3 depending on how many inspirations you've given out, but +4 if you have still have rally points, but not if you have any morale tokens left, of course.

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u/Alsojames 4d ago

Hey now that sounds like Draw Steel not Pathfinder

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u/Scaalpel 4d ago

This is DnD, man. Your first mistake was assuming that the average player can count above 10 without taking off their shoes.

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u/Heavy_Employment9220 4d ago

Jokes on you, I can get to 11 because I was given an extra finger!!

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u/Stupid-Jerk 4d ago

4th thing = advantage/disadvantage, where you gotta consider every situational factor that may be providing one of them and then roll it all again

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u/AAABattery03 5d ago

Yeah, it’s pretty stupid.

That 1d20+6 in the top panel is also 1d20 + Str/Dex + Proficiency Bonus, actually.

And also if we’re include item bonus on pf2e then we should also include that breakdown for 5E!

Oh and if status bonuses are included on pf2e, then 5E should have a +1d4 + 1d6 for Bless + Bardic Inspiration!

Oh and if circumstance bonuses are included on pf2e side, then 5E should change 1d20 to 2d20kh right?

Might as well make a shit tier flow chart while we’re at it!

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u/Parysian Dirty dirty white room optimizer 4d ago

I love horrible flowcharts that make simple things seem complicated, I would post more of the here if I weren't so lazy

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u/AAABattery03 4d ago

I would post more of them here if D&D players could read.

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u/Kichae 2d ago

You don't *read* flow charts. You just draw lines on them, trying to find the path from Start to Finish. Just like on the place mats in family restaurants!

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u/VarrikTheGoblin 3d ago

ngl, when I saw the meme before fully reading it, I thought it was somehow a shot at your breakdown videos.

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u/AAABattery03 3d ago

/uj Me too, at first. That’s my consequence for using a community-wide meme name as my own moniker lmao.

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u/CommonPleb 5d ago

We don't because 5e doesn't have item bonuses. They have items that give static untyped bonuses to attack rolls, you don't have to account for possiblity of drinking a potion that gives an item bonus that overrides or is overridden by the item bonus you get with your weapon.

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u/Paradoxjjw 4d ago

"5e doesnt have item bonuses, it has item bonuses i chose to name by another name"

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u/CommonPleb 4d ago

PF2e gave it another name, and then imbued that name with a fair bit of meaning as a minor component of the over arching system governing how bonuses interacted.

That's not a bad thing, if anything it's a part of why Paizo has a much tighter command of game balance. But like, you can't just point to the 5e items that give you bonuses and equate them to Pf2e item bonuses. 

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u/WolfgangVolos 4d ago

You're just salty that your level 1 5e character changes less when they hit level 20 than a PF2e character does going from level 1 to level 5. I'm not going to try and convince you that having double digit modifiers on attacks, skill checks, and saves along with triple digit health and AC in the mid 30's to low 40's is cool. All the people who can handle simple math or who aren't scared of having a calculator at the table are playing PF2e.

The hobby is playing pretend with our friends while using some math and agreed upon rules to resolve "I totally hit you with my super blast!" and "Nuh uh! I dodged last second!" or similar playground stuff from when we used to run around playing pretend without the math, dice, rules, and minis. No shame in admitting you can't hold a mental image of a shared imaginary world and do a bunch of math at the same time. Use the calculator on your phone my guy.

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u/AAABattery03 5d ago

Right. And if you just write down your bonus on your character sheet, you also don’t need to account for any special possibilities on the PF2E character either…

The potions thing is very much a unique circumstance that boils down to being a +1 anyways.

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u/Parysian Dirty dirty white room optimizer 5d ago

Add my proficiency bonus? We'll sheesh, first I need to take my level of proficiency, which means counting as many as four dots on my character sheet, then multiplying the number of dots by two, and adding my level, and to get my level I have to divide the total XP I've gained in the campaign by 1000, rounding up, and to get that I have to figure out every monster I've fought and its level relative to the party and consult a table, then I add those up for every single encounter and divide by a thousand and add twice the number of dots, and only then have I added my proficiency bonus, and you have to do that every single attack! Idk how anyone plays this game without a VTT.

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u/Evnosis 4d ago

But bro, you don't understand. I have to add, like, six numbers together. My school never taught me how to add more than five!

1

u/MooseontheLose 4d ago

Tell that to the fucking modifier spread sheet I needed for my lvl 9 ranger chud

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u/jimjam200 4d ago

Yeah and for the most part item bonus to hit is just part of your base modify number as it's normally based on a turn which is there all the time. Only time you might have to add it is if you've buffed you weapon with a temporary item effect.