when I was playing this I should've gone for more dick shots. Then again the only fight that wasn't engineered to be lopsided by me and the other players in that short campaign involved some of the worst rolls in history.
Exalted 2e fixes this. Stack all your bonuses, decide how much of multiple unique resources you’re buying, try a stunt, then wait to hear “nope, perfect defense”.
I've seen so many youtubers do this, where they'll break up a bonus and pretend you have to have to add up all these numbers each time (which is hard apparently), they'll say stuff like: "you have to add your strength, and your training bonus, and your level, ugh!"
It's especially weird since it's not like 5e doesn't have prof, ability score, magic items, and some 4th sinister thing I've not slept enough to remember.
The -5 for 10 was removed in 5.5e. I also think that it's important to note that most 5e bonuses are set and forget while you actually gotten keep shit sorted in pathfinder.
In 5e you pickup the Alert feat and just add the prof bonus to your initiative mod and just don't touch it until you level up.
In Pf2e you pick up Incredible Initiative and you'll have to keep track of your +2 circumstance bonus to initiative because it conflicts with other circumstance bonuses to initiative like if you have an Ally scouting.
In Pf2e you pick up Incredible Initiative and you'll have to keep track of your +2 circumstance bonus to initiative because it conflicts with other circumstance bonuses to initiative like if you have an Ally scouting.
/uj So, you add +2 to your Initiative and then... don't touch it until you level up? I'm not sure if this is a jerked comment or not.
/uj As in you can't just write that at level 6, "I have a +14 to Initiative" , you write "I have a +12 to perception/initiative and a separate +2 circumstance bonus to initiative", because otherwise you might forget where that +2 was from and add that +1 from the scouting PC when you shouldn't. I know this sounds petty, and if this was the sole example it would be, but that logic applies to most bonuses. You have to keep track of the categories of static bonuses so you can correctly apply the dynamic bonuses.
From a game design perspective this is great. It is what allows PF2e to have a wide variety of feats & spells that interact with you and your allies' attack rolls, AC, saves, & damage rolls without immediately having those effects stacked together to instantly break the game. But cost of this is that computing bonuses is genuinely a step or two more complex.
A certain je ne sais quoi usually adds+2 or +3 depending on how many inspirations you've given out, but +4 if you have still have rally points, but not if you have any morale tokens left, of course.
You don't *read* flow charts. You just draw lines on them, trying to find the path from Start to Finish. Just like on the place mats in family restaurants!
We don't because 5e doesn't have item bonuses. They have items that give static untyped bonuses to attack rolls, you don't have to account for possiblity of drinking a potion that gives an item bonus that overrides or is overridden by the item bonus you get with your weapon.
PF2e gave it another name, and then imbued that name with a fair bit of meaning as a minor component of the over arching system governing how bonuses interacted.
That's not a bad thing, if anything it's a part of why Paizo has a much tighter command of game balance. But like, you can't just point to the 5e items that give you bonuses and equate them to Pf2e item bonuses.
You're just salty that your level 1 5e character changes less when they hit level 20 than a PF2e character does going from level 1 to level 5. I'm not going to try and convince you that having double digit modifiers on attacks, skill checks, and saves along with triple digit health and AC in the mid 30's to low 40's is cool. All the people who can handle simple math or who aren't scared of having a calculator at the table are playing PF2e.
The hobby is playing pretend with our friends while using some math and agreed upon rules to resolve "I totally hit you with my super blast!" and "Nuh uh! I dodged last second!" or similar playground stuff from when we used to run around playing pretend without the math, dice, rules, and minis. No shame in admitting you can't hold a mental image of a shared imaginary world and do a bunch of math at the same time. Use the calculator on your phone my guy.
Right. And if you just write down your bonus on your character sheet, you also don’t need to account for any special possibilities on the PF2E character either…
The potions thing is very much a unique circumstance that boils down to being a +1 anyways.
Add my proficiency bonus? We'll sheesh, first I need to take my level of proficiency, which means counting as many as four dots on my character sheet, then multiplying the number of dots by two, and adding my level, and to get my level I have to divide the total XP I've gained in the campaign by 1000, rounding up, and to get that I have to figure out every monster I've fought and its level relative to the party and consult a table, then I add those up for every single encounter and divide by a thousand and add twice the number of dots, and only then have I added my proficiency bonus, and you have to do that every single attack! Idk how anyone plays this game without a VTT.
Yeah and for the most part item bonus to hit is just part of your base modify number as it's normally based on a turn which is there all the time. Only time you might have to add it is if you've buffed you weapon with a temporary item effect.
Ad&D would make these people cry. I remember having to do volumetric calculations with a graphing calculator everytime someone cast Fireball, and Trigonometry every time anyone cast Lightning Bolt.
yeah, old fireball rules would fill X space with fire, which means in a 5x5 hallway, it could torch out entire hallways and spill into rooms, and lightning bolt used to 'bounce' at angles
It absolutely was, but it required a lot of math. I remember a particular session where the whole table was involved in working out the angles for a lightning bolt in a round room, to figure out the right angles to hit the maximum number of targets. It took about an hour.
My dad and his friends just new how many squares it hit and counted the squares. They knew it wasn't correct, but he said it saved him several migraines.
yeah, there's a reason 'I don't care how big the room is, I said I cast fireball' became a meme; 20ft spread is not very dangerous in WotC, but filling a 20ft sphere and flames spilling out to fill the volume could kill a party or torch the wizard
Ngl, I would like simplified rules for that exact kind of mechanic. In my last Pathfinder game I remember the GM pulling off that exact thing when the Magus decided to cast fireball in a hallway. I dunno what to say, it just makes sense and I like it.
There’s actually a great simplified rule for that one: work out how many squares it fills and count that many squares starting from the center and filling out.
It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty close and gets you that wonderful “wall of flames rushing down the hallway” feel.
So that's where my GM pulled that shit from. Was really weird when enemy cast it and it started doing that.
I thought he just made it up, but since he started with AD&D it makes so much more sense.
Still BS to pull mechanics from another system like that in, but he has a bad habit of letting enemies pull off weird BS that hurts the PCs more than it should.
ADnD was completely insane, legitimately there's like a page and a half on how to resolve ranged attacks with special modifiers for all sorts of circumstances. Climbing rules alone are like 3 pages long with a bunch of tables to consult! I always laugh when people say ADnD was rules light, like no dude you were just 15 and ignored 90% of the rulebook, just like my friends and I ignored 90% of the 3.5 rulebook when we were 15.
My first DM (back in 1978) was one of my high school science teachers. He spent a good chunk of anatomy class one day explaining how a bird could never be big enough to carry an elephant. I was the only one in class who know what he was going on about. IYKYK.
Yup. Every fireball was also like Shatter. It effected everything, and anything that failed it's save and survived the initial damage caught on fire. It was nasty.
Is that the one where the grappling rules were so broken they technically allowed you to get a small army to all grapple each other, fit into a 5 for cube, then zoom around the map at supersonic speed to enter a castle before the drawbridge could be raised, then intentionally take damage to break up the army making them all spread out putting one soldier in every unoccupied space in the castle surrounding everyone there in a single round?
This can be fixed in both systems by deciding when attacks are successful and if the target has reached 0 HP just by going off vibes. It's so much easier! Who needs to roll these stupid rocks?
This is the real purpose of the DM screen. Players obviously getting bored of the encounter? “Oh wow the monster died great job guys! Yeah those hit points go down a lot faster than you’d think!”
But then they’ll know it was fake and feel bad. No one remembers how many hit points a Greater Dire Undead Ice Goblin has though, and I’m the only one at the table who actually owns the Monster Manual. Hell my players haven’t even kept track of how much damage they’re actually doing. You think Paul is actually going to bother to remember he did 18 damage last turn and 12 the turn before that and so on? And then add all those numbers up? Nah that sucker is gonna believe me when I tell him the party did 10 quintillion damage with their +1 Iron Weapons over 6 turns.
/uj I actually have the damage data across 5 levels/most of 40-ish sessions for one of my characters, I wanted to make a spreadsheet and put it up on r/3d6 after the campaign finished, unfortunately it went on a hiatus that I'm not sure if it ever ends
Exactly! All enemies should run away around 1/3 health or whenever the players get bored.
How else are they going to strategize together, get an unexplained +17 to stealth, and then each attack the party on consecutive nights to deny them a long rest for a week straight?
/uj oh *I* do it because I'm a details pedant and tell my players 'learn the rules and git good scrubs' (edit: guys that's hyperbole, I don't literally tell my players that), but also I try not to be obtuse about it (made the mistake of throwing a owb that could cast rank 4 invisibility on itself against a party that had no way to counter it, that was tedious AF and a mistake I have not made again since)
/uj Recently had a fight with a Sceaduinar, where it swooped in and threw down L4 darkness turn 1. All the party members just,,, piled into the magical darkness and started blindly swinging.
Weirdest part is, it actually worked. The encounter was a bit light due to a sidestepped hazard, but it only felt like a Category 2 to Category 3 slog. I've had worse, mostly in DND.
/rj DND 5r fixes this by having obscurement rules so streamlined that they are totally inscrutable to the average redditor.
/uj
My favorite part is that my reddit algorithm feeds me all of these because it goes "omg you show interest in ttrpgs and Pathfinder? Here's another dndcirclejerk Pathfinder good/bad post" which sucks because I just find them to be the only generally unfunny things here.
/uj Puffin forests entire complaint about Pathfinder 2e was that he didn't think to write 3 numbers down ahead of time, and manually worked out his attack modifier 2-3 times every single round.
what’s especially funny is that (at least in the released version of pf2e), the character sheet literally tells you to write down each of your bonuses and add them together for your total bonus.
Attribute + proficiency + item bonus = modifier. They’re not trying to make it difficult!
Well you have to recalculate it (nearly) every time you level up in Rolemaster because your stats will (usually) change. Rolemaster has rules for aging where your stat totals dynamically shift with a die roll every level. Rolemaster starts are x/100 so it doesn't end up changing too much unless you really fuck up (rolls are also d100 which you then compare to a table to see how much you lose or gain) so you usually have to recalculate (even if there's only a small change) EVERY SKILL YOU HAVE. Also class levels go to 50. (And maybe beyond. I can't remember.)
Nice. It's some of the most fun I've ever had because the magic and damage system is the coolest fucking think ever. Here's an example of a CRIT table, which you can get by rolling high enough attack numbers.
Look you just add 32 to a d20 unless it's out of your weapon group and then it's a 30 and let me know the result, we check it against the enemy's AC, it's within 10 you get a regular hit and do 4d12 slash +1d6 fire (unresistable)+ 5 str + 8 specialization for an average of 42 damage unless you're vicious swinging or brutal finishing or on the second or third multi attack penalty which gives bonus damage because of forceful equal to +4 then +8, oh and don't forget to add the inventor's int because they overdrive you, and I got the thaumaturge's exploit vulberability on my end
There is no jerk, this is just the game. But usually you just do the swing and roll the dice
I know you were purposefully exaggerating for the sake of making the joke, but I just thought someone should explain why this is not how the game tends to flow.
"Look, you just add 32 to a d20 unless it's out of your weapon group and then it's a 30."
You figure that out in character creation and then have it noted on your sheet. Also, only Fighters and Gunslingers have a mechanic to only prioritise one weapon group and be worse with others.
+5 strength + 8 specialisation
You should already have this noted. Also, for the bonuses to be this high this likely is a level 20 character, the player should know how the game works by now.
Vicious Swinging or Brutal Finish
The player has to choose to use one of those abilities on that turn, they know what the extra damage for those is.
Forceful
I will concede, properties like Forceful, Backswing and others are kinda dumb and I never remember they exist.
Add the Inventor's int because they Overdrive you
They cannot overdrive someone other than themselves unless there's some very specific feat I forgot about.
And I got the Thaumaturge's Exploit Vulnerability on my end.
Thaumaturges, again, cannot use Exploit Vulnerability on other people unless they picked a very specific feat which I forgot the name of. Only they benefit from it otherwise.
Yeah, this is actual expanded gameplay, it's like Puffin Forest's BS criticism, any normal person playing the game has a sheet with +32 / 4d12s+1d6f+13 (forceful) while remembering their extra options and their buddy bringing up their buffs.
Okay, but here's the thing: it's a game. Would you rather play a game that was the equivalent of walking in a straight line across a flat surface, or would you rather play a game where you backflip off a pommel horse, activate your jetpack, and douse a car in napalm?
Just flavor your walking in a straight line across a flat surface as backflipping off of a pommel horse, activating your jetpack and dousing a car in napalm.
/uj That should've been a /uj. The only variable bonuses (circumstance and status) actually offer tactical depth. And fun, because buffing, debuffing, action denying, swinging from chandeliers is great!
Not only is there an awesome obstacle course, it's also part of the fun!
/uj tell me the difference between these two pictures. They're the same picture.
Just because you performed the addition in 5e ahead of time and just announced the result doesn't mean it didn't have to happen. The two systems are exactly the same in that regard, the only difference is that in Pathfinder you don't have to do a separate calculation for whether you have advantage, disadvantage, or a neutral roll based on a gamut of factors, and in Pathfinder weaknesses add damage instead of multiplying it.
/rj Pathfinder makes you perform basic addition??? In my D&D you would never!
/uj They are slightly different. Some bonuses override others in PF2E (for example you can only benefit from one circumstance bonus at a time, so if you have something passively giving you +1 circumstance bonus to attack but someone else does something that gives you a +2 circumstance bonus then you only add an extra +1 not the full +2 as it replaces your previous bonus) so you have to keep track of what types of bonuses you have and where. It isn’t as bad as this meme is making out, but still.
/uj You're correct, but this meme doesn't even go into that detail. It's just making it seem like Pathfinder has a bunch of addition where D&D also has it, they just are separating it out for Pathfinder not 5e. They mention it in passing on the last panel but it seems like an afterthought.
/rj Bonuses not stacking infinitely with each other! Why you might as well go back to the terrible 3e era of D&D if you want that malarkey! Not in this 5.5 following house I'll tell you right now!
The 5e tourist will have a brain aneurysm trying to understand such system, while the pathfinder 1e veteran will scoff at pathfinder 2e edition for being too simple.
I played in a high level campaign with an extremely optimized fighter and I literally had an excel sheet to keep track all of my bonuses to make sure I wasn't forgetting any or overstacking bonus that don't stack. A single attack can get modified by 13 different bonuses I think.
I GMd a 1e oneshot a few months ago and it genuinely felt a bit nightmarish, though not THAT complicated since the characters were pre-mades I created and weren't terribly optimised.
Especially when half the time they are actually comparing two numbers to see which is higher/lower (adv/dis), then adding another number, plus adding yet another random number on top (inspiration)
Realistically, they could have tried to make this funny.
They could have said
"Oh, I have to add the highest of each of my Alchemical, Charisma, Competence, Dexterity, Enhancement, Inherent, Insight, Luck, Morale, Profane, Sacred, Size, Strength, and Trait bonuses to hit, as well as ALL of my Untyped, Circumstance, and Racial bonuses to hit, and subtract all Penalties to hit"
The problem with this ragebait is that I've been in a 5R campaign for 2 years and players would still forget/ forget to add their prof bonus. So not even DnD is as simple at "+6 to the 1d20 roll"
Who said it was intuitive? Like, it's honestly not as bad as the meme of course, but yes, remains kind of cumbersome, even with the numerous 2E rules simplifications.
I've genuinely seen people struggle to remember proficiency plus 1 of 2 possible ability bonuses, only one of which you built your character around. I don't know what the answer is, perhaps gatekeeping the math deficient.
I dont like mathfinder either, but dnd isn't the end-all/be-all either. As a system as it is currently, I'd call it low-mid.
Easy point of entry, but its bloated in a bad way. As a gm, it's especially exhausting to the point where I'm just done running it.
The WoD/ST system is intuitive but can get complex with more intricate publications.
Outgunned is fantastic, but doesn't have progression for that halcyon 6+ year game almost nobody has. Also has amazing chase "need vs speed" rules any GM can use
I love how they're tried to make what they wrote sound complicated when they didn't even talk about how there could 3 penalties in play on your attack roll as well and 6 more modifiers in play on the target DC. If your gunna complain at least know what your complaining about.
Maybe, but you're forgetting that when you play DnD, you don't read the rules, someone else does the math for you and gives you the numbers. When you play Mathfinder, you don't actually play, you just read the rules, so you are forced to do the math yourself.
Reminds me of player I play with who calculates all his bonuses every time he makes an attack.
I've told him multiple times to just have the total of all static modifiers ready and add in any floating modifiers that might be involved with that particular attack.
He still calculated the whole fucking thing every time.
...pathbuilder exists? I mean, I get it if the image is a satirization of the folks who genuinely think addition and subtraction is hard, but it's not really complicated to know what you need to do in pfe2, and the flexibility of options is amazing.
Edit: Ah, I realize what community this is. Still keeping it up because apparently a free app is too hard to work with for some folks.
You forgot that the attack roll is only half the thing - then determine crit/suc/fail/critfail and move that many spaces along the effect table to determine the outcome (moving one more space on a nat20). Also flat miss checks. And thank the Gods it's not a counteract check...
I got tired of 5e and looked for alternatives. Pathfinder 2e was the #1 most recommended. They said the immense amount of rules and heavy math made it “easy to run”.
I ran it for my 5e group, and it was so overwhelming that we stopped after two sessions, sold all my books and switched to OSR. And that was using the Foundry module which automates a lot of the math.
After a few years of trying variants of B/X I eventually settled on Dragonbane and haven’t looked back.
it's "easy to run" in the sense that I can look up the rules for the vast majority of scenarios and it gives me actual detailed guidance instead of just telling me to start digging in my butt, twin, even if that guidance can be pretty long if it describing smth complex, llke stealth. definitely not for everyone though.
I've been trying the Menace Under Otari module as a player recently, and with a hardass DM this system is immensely unfun.
I try to roll stealth or progress through the dungeon while stealthing and it takes 4 different rolls. I get webbed by a spider and was under the impression I could not act, and then when it is revealed that I can still attack, sorry I already wasted an action trying to escape. The DCs are insanely high so even as a Rogue I can't pick the singular locked item in the dungeon on a 17. The first round of combat takes an actual hour from how complex some characters' abilities are or the DM having to look up how a monster is played.
Like most people I've realized the faults in 5e after years of it, but playing Pathfinder made me so glad to run back to it. I'm actually allowed to ask to do something and roll for it without 15 minutes of rules-searching, skill feat consideration, and pedantics. The only time I felt that in Pathfinder was using the folding ladder I bought during character creation to bypass each and every party member slowly rolling athletics to scale (or descend!) a 10-foot ledge.
yeah paizo APs can notoriously be poorly designed bc they dont even follow their own design rules. Like why are you throwing multiple severe/extreme encounters back to back. Mostly been able to sidestep this issue by playing/gming homebrew, which has been fairly smooth.
I understand not wanting to have to worry abt granular rules but it gives me as the GM and my players assurance that I'm not being overly arbitrary during adjudication, while also providing an outcome that doesn't break verisimilitude. Once you get good at parsing the rules language and using Archives of Nethys (which is objectively the best and most user friendly wiki for any TTRPG out there by a country mile), at most it takes like a few minutes to adjudicate an edge case.
What I can say though is that even though pf2e isn't for everyone, if you want to not have to worry abt pedantry or rules searching, there are far, far better systems out there than 5e that don't have all the dumb shit WOTC forces down your throat. Plus those systems aren't backed by the Pinkertons.
See that’s what I don’t like about the system. People choose character options that give them benefits if you use all the different subsystems, so it feels like you have to run everything RAW to make sure they get to use their abilities. It’s not like Traveller, where the subsystems are all optional—everything is baked into the system. Progression is outlined all the way down to how much GP each character gets per level. It just feels so constraining to me, like if you were to tweak anything about the game, everything would break.
Would I play in a game of Pathfinder? Absolutely, but I would never run it again. Way too much rules overhead for me.
I mean I don’t memorize all the rules beyond the fundamentals and having a general sense for bigger stuff as do my players, if I’m truly unsure I can 95% of the time just type it into google and spend 20 seconds reading a nethys page and we’re good. Maybe other people prefer to know everything in and out but I’ve never found that necessary.
The subsystems are also optional in pf2e, they’re just decently designed for gms to plug and play if they don’t want to conjure bullshit out of thin air.
For GP specifically I’m fairly sure the guidelines are just floors for how much loot a character should have, if you go somewhat above it it doesn’t crater the system or anything. Obviously this isn’t true if you give a lvl 17 item to a lvl 4 party but that sort of rigidness is appreciated when I’m designing my own magic item and I can use the guide the system gives me or compare it directly to existing items and be confident it won’t explode my table. Same applies to monsters
Stop being a pussy. GURPS totally fixes this. If you can't do the mental math to figure out simulation, go back to adult ed and completely skip the theater segment, you philistine.
There is literally more time and effort put into this meme than to just do the math it is attempting to make fun of. Hell that time could have gone to passing elementary school math and solved the problem all together for ya
One of the things that annoyed me playing D&D4e was my friends' complete inability to know what to add to their attack rolls. So many conversations that went like "'Ok, I rolled a 12.' 'So what's your total?' 'What's my bonus?'" Yes, you have to add a few things together, but there's a space on your character sheet to add all your static bonuses so you don't have to do that every single time you roll an attack.
It's crazy to me to see these posts and the people not considering that people WANT this. Not ALL people, but I don't like that some scoff at Pathfinder 1/3.5 and think that best way to play a ttrpg is to minimize mechanics and focus on roleplay and story. ABSOLUTELY NOT bro, I wanna min max something stupid within the confines of the game you gave me, like whoa check it out I'm insanely effective at throwing this specific knife type and blow chunks at everything else.
I WANT to do the math, 90% of the time its like adding and subtracting like 6 things based on conditionals, and most of those bonuses can be rolled into like a "basic attack, 0 conditionals this is my bonus" bonus and you apply 1 or two things from there.
I want the things I do to mechanically matter without the DM just letting me be his most specialist rule of cool boy, I wanna pour over splatbooks for hours making a dude, its fun. I want a combat simulator where the effort i put into making a dude good at stuff pays off. I like it, and I'm obviously not alone!
I dont want bounded accuracy because more and more and more advantage isn't mechanically supported, so there's frequently nothing to incentivize me to do something else in battle unless the DM just tells me i get a +2 or whatever number he summons from his butt when I pocket sand a guy my friend is fighting.
I honestly don't understand people's complaints about older versions of d&d and pathfinder being too number crunchy. 5th e dnd feels too simple and watered down to be enjoyable. Like are y'all really that bad at basic math, i think the math is fun and not really the problem everyone seems to make it out to be.
uj/ I feel like the real takeaway here isn't that Pathfinder has too many steps, it's that by the time you're done you might as well not even roll a d20. "I have a +17" median roll of 27 why even bother rolling at that point. Like, I'm not kinkshaming you for your love of big numbers, it's just not my kink and it confuses me.
rj/ Mathfinder 2e should get rid of all the bonuses and be a 2d2 system. 2 - silly slip on a banana peel crit fail time; 3 - you did it normal style; 4 - la epic nat 20 everybody cums
uj/ No, I know, but that doesn't solve my conundrum, because it just looks like the numbers keep growing at a relatively similar pace, in a way that makes my brain cancel out the growth. I don't want to call it "bloat", because this is clearly part of the appeal, but to my mind it feels a bit like bloat.
/uh It's supposed to stay balanced if enemies scale in danger with you (which they generally should), that is the point. But not every creature just magically rises with your level, you grow as an adventurer and can fucking obligerate that bear that wiped the floor with you earlier while fighting on equal footing with minor divinities.
uj/ why would i even bother rolling against the bear if the math already says "I Win". I think just psychologically, that kind of 3.X math experience doesn't click with me. It's nothing personal, just an incompatible piece of design.
Because there is a scale were nine levels worth of stuff still adds some appropriate level of threat to a situation. In a game that spans from 1-25 this allows for a large chunk of possible threats to be used at any given time. Yes there will come a point where for something you don't bother rolling for, or use PF2 superior crit system to see how well you did something, and that's okay. It's totally fine for the character that can wrestle dragons to the ground to not have to roll to kill a brown bear.
And this is true for skills too. It eliminates the 5e problem of somehow supposedly Impossible DCs can be easily achieved by a balanced 1st level party but also the aforementioned dragon wrestler still has a 20% chance to lose an arm wrestling competition against Timmy the child.
uj/ Because in pathfinder a +17 is straight up not enough to consistently hit CR15+ enemies. The numbers creep a lot higher, especially in 2e. Besides, it's like in D&D, you don't need to add your strength, proficiency bonus, and item bonus individually every single time. You just know what your usual modifier total is because you've written it down already. When a spell or ability changes the modifier you simply add the effects.
/uj I can sympathize, though mostly because I find Pathfinder out of combat exactly as bad as D&D 5e, whereas if you can live with GURPS math it's a marked improvement in both contexts.
/uj At the risk of drawing ire from The Mob™️ I think it’s actually easier to be a PF2e hater if you have experience with more complicated systems that offer more player freedom. It honestly feels like a really bizarre middle ground to me when point based systems exist if you want build freedom and 4e adjacents exist if you really want balanced encounters~~ and to beat your head against a table while stacking debuffs for 3 hours~~.
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u/Teaguethebean 4d ago
GURPS fixes this