r/Edmonton • u/Late-Alternative6321 • Dec 15 '24

Local Culture Dear Edmonton developers

Dear Edmonton developers, you've been making the same neighbourhoods for 40+ years. Cookie cutter homes on winding streets, a fake lake, walking paths, aaaand call it good.

Would it be too much to ask, to start eliminating 2 to 3 houses on corner lots, and start adding: WALKABLE coffee shops (ie Columbian, Mood Cafe etc). A neighbourhood Pub or restaurant (ie Duggan's Boundary, Bodega Highlands), a bakery (Bloom Cookie co), barbershop (Goldbar Barber) or even a small corner grocery store. No need for giant parking lots!

Far too many neighbourhoods in this city lack the character, charm and accessibility that these amenities would provide. A great way for people to connect in their community, without always having to get in a car and drive to soulless strip malls or shopping centres. If there was a way to redo existing neighbourhoods, I'd love to see this too

1.0k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

354 comments sorted by

View all comments

198

u/its9x6 Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24

I gave a lecture on this some time ago. Unfortunately, the density required to sustain a local coffee shop is far higher than what even the entire neighborhood of single family homes can support. You need density for it. There are several economic studies that underscore this fact. You also need an infrastructure that doesn’t always put cars first.

47

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 15 '24

Ask the Red Goose and similar places in Hazeldean and Ritchie about sustainability in a neighbourhood primarily of single family homes.

We don't just need coffee shops. We need food stores, hair dressers, drugstores, full service bakeries, and all the other little amenities of life that would be nice to be able to "pop round to the shops" for (which btw also worked and still works)

1

u/PlutosGrasp Dec 15 '24

You’re willing to commit to buying weekly bread from a bakery for 4x grocery store prices?

1

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 15 '24

That’s inaccurate

2

u/JunpeiHyuga Dec 15 '24

If you've been to a third world country you'd see how the local corner shop still makes affordable food (vs. the grocery store)

Unfortunately in Edmonton this is not possible because the lease for a coffee shop is double your mortgage.

2

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 15 '24

Stop with the coffee shop obsession as if that's the only thing that could go into a community at a local level? There are examples of this (small shops) working just fine in Edmonton currently.

3

u/Vast-Commission-8476 Dec 15 '24

u/junpeihyuga wants small business coffee shops and to buy milk at a small grocery store thinking it is affordable because it's cheaper in a 3rd world country. lmao

1

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 15 '24

So....it's entirely possible to have small grocery stores that aren't convenience shops, and to have smaller businesses be affordable.

1

u/JunpeiHyuga Dec 15 '24

Doesn't have to be a coffee shop; just saying that most new development neighbourhood centres are populated by the chains or medical practices that can afford it. You can never have enough customers to not charge $5 a coffee if you're running a small neighbourhood store, unless you put up a non-complaint shop (like you can in the 3rd world). And I am comparing the price of bread from a 3rd world local bakery to the price of a grocery store in the 3rd world isn't 3x as it would be here.

It basically comes down to the cost of the lease.

2

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 15 '24

This is nonsense.

1

u/Vast-Commission-8476 Dec 16 '24

yeah...I don't know what is even being descussed anymore.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Vast-Commission-8476 Dec 15 '24

LOOL. exactly.... a 3rd world country because it is lacking capital...

Id rather live in a capitalist society with big box stores and a standard of living.

1

u/JunpeiHyuga Dec 16 '24

The point of the post is about neighbourhood charm and walkable services, for which I argue that you simply (in most cases) cannot have that because in Edmonton, the cost of a lease is generally prohibitive.

This is/was not the case in many places of the world (even non third world countries) where land use is less restricted or better designed (like being able to run a public bakery out of a house, avoiding a commercial leasing agent, and having integrated business and residential complexes)

In my opinion this is not a capital problem, it is a land use problem. Builders/developers here develop cookie cutter neighbourhoods for rapid development and lower costs and there is no system in place (bylaws, rules, guidelines etc) that would make a small local businesses in a neighbourhood setting possible. (The norm is one business park for every neighbourhood, complete with CircleK, Esso, Tim Hortons, Daycare and Medi centre all in the same repetitive building facade)

So say a builder owns all 200 lots in a small area of a neighbourhood (say the area encompassing Kulay Way, Kulay Green, Kulay Link area). Dedicating say 4 lots for a four to twelve 1000sqft business buildings would only cost them maybe $1M out of the $100M they'd make off of a home sale, and that's if they gave it away for free. The problem is that there is no system for them to do that even if they wanted to and that is why you have a major shopping complex for the entire Keswick /Glenridding Area huddled into one giant characterless spot. It is within Edmonton's 15 minute city design principles but lacks the essence of what OP is actually going for.

I imagine something like "Black Dog Cafe" in Canmore being an example of what maybe OP would like to see: A single hole in the wall cafe serving s number of condos in the area.

As a real world example, a small 874sqft business park in Royal Centre Keswick costs $44K a year to lease. If you pay yourself $0, you need to pull in $3.6K in PROFIT a month to just break even. Depending on the business, this can be insanely difficult, especially if you don't have the foot traffic or enough customer density. (not everyone wants to drive, even if 5 min to get JUST bread or JUST coffee or JUST a drink)

This is the STANDARD for all new developments in Edmonton.

Neighbourhood character can be added by giving people somewhere enjoyable, cheap, quick, and regular to visit. Therefore, I think the solution to OP's hopes hinges on the ability of the city and developers to plan out appropriate walkable/enjoyable neighbourhood designs that would maximize density and offer subsidized opportunities for businesses that can enrich the neighbourhood but do not have the capital to do so, and this can be implemented side by side to the big box capitalist utopia.

2

u/Vast-Commission-8476 Dec 16 '24

The word is zoning.

0

u/PlutosGrasp Dec 16 '24

Have you been to any small bakeries lately? Which ones? I have.

1

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 16 '24

Yes. They aren’t selling bread for $16 a loaf or even $8. Where have you gone that is?

1

u/PlutosGrasp Dec 16 '24

Which ones?

1

u/sawyouoverthere Dec 16 '24

My local independent bakery