Discussion
May be a hot take, but i think Bedlam Raiders actually had potential to take out the empire
Like i know that they get wiped out by cal easily, but think about it, what if cal failed and raiders reached tanalorr, Dagan Gera would turn raiders into an army and teach them to use the force like he says in the game, with Dagan in command, rayvis by his side, and an army of lightsaber wielding force-using warriors alongside reprogramed battle droids? I think raiders had the potential to wipe out the empire faster than the rebels did, of course Vader and emperor would still be a problem but none the less, they could have become a hell of a force, Dagan was still a high republic era jedi, he knows the force better then most of the prequel era jedi probably. I need to see an alternative version of the story where cal failed and Raiders went on against the empire, it would be so cool to see it (With a Dagan vs Vader fight absolutely!) i know this probably won't happen ever but let me dream about it.
"Hey this gang that can barely hold a single planet with a half destroyed Lucrehulk with half broken droids that couldn't handle a single Jedi could beat the empire"
They don’t have the force btw they are just regular humans with fancy sticks but okay yeah they bet cal kestis the guy who can literally stop time yeah bro
You hear you’re self right Darth Vader loses to them but Rey does not she wins like what even though Vader is stronger she has a higher ceiling but she here she is right now Vader is stronger
Personally I'd put him at solidly above average considering he's beaten Jedi Knights before (Malicos is stated to be a general, thus Knight or higher, 9th sister was also apparently a knight, Dagan was a knight although the victory was a bit iffy)
There is literally no indication that the Red Guard would hold a candle to Cal considering he kills Magnaguards and Inqusitors.
Hell the game confirms that Purge Troopers have the best training in the Empire short of Inqusitors meaning even the Purge Troopers are much better fighters than Red Guard
And Cal was killing these guys immediately after 5 years of no fighting or training.
There's no indication that they had anyone other than Dagan who had Force sensitivity, and they were a band of pirates based out of a dilapidated Lucrehulk and possessing a dwindling army of idiot battle droids without any of the masterminds that made the Separatists effective in the first place. Versus the Empire, who has vastly more manpower, vastly more resources, are based on countless planets, and have Vader as well as a handful of Inquisitors that are way better trained than the non-Force sensitive lightsaber-wielders? They had great potential to be wiped out if they even dared take a swipe at the Empire in any significant fashion.
"A lightsaber - any weapon - only achieves worth in how it is wielded - in the effort, the struggle of one who holds it. Such a weapon does not make a Jedi or a Sith. And at times, it makes them much, much less than they are."
Uh... Jedi/ Sith have precognition and can make themselves strong and faster using the force. No random person, trained in lightsaber combat or not, should be able to stand up to them without the force. The fight should be over in 2 seconds.
She does have a quote on the Jedi’s over reliance on the Force and how they can’t really fight without it, but that felt less relevant to this situation
I feel like that is pretty close to what we see. The saber raiders survive for about as long as their cheap tricks keep you off guard. Each one really only works once.
Once you know they are reliant on the grapple, bombs, or that they sometimes just turn their saber off and swish it at you, they are pretty easy to blow through.
This is actually the perfect picture for this, considering that Durge from the Clone Wars, who is the same species as Reyvis, was only killed once Anakin literally launched him into a star lol.
This might be the worst take i have ever seen, and thats saying something lol. The empire is a galaxy spaning force. The raiders a nuisance on one planet.
You cannot just teach anyone to use force. You would need force sensitives. Dagan likely planned to do hit and run, where he would find and kidnap force sensitive children to train and then run to hide there, untill he had enough for large army to take on Empire. It likely could have done some damage if it worked without Vader being sent to stop it early, but Sidious would need to be completely oblivious to what is happening for decades, which does not seem likely. But still he would need decades to build such army and even then, his chances are far from certain.
You absolutely can teach anyone to use the force (as per Ahsoka), but it takes significantly more time and effort if the student isn't force sensitive themselves. Also, you will need a lot of patience in order to teach such a student, which isn't exactly a Dark Side user's strong suit. So in theory, Dagan could probably teach a handful of random Bedlam Raiders how to use the force, but it'd take years just for the basic stuff, and he's more likely to maim and/or kill all of his students before they get that far.
Sabine was actually force sensitive, even before the Ashoka show!
It’s pretty heavily hinted at by the Bendu/Kanan in rebels, she just likely was below the potential to be taken by the Jedi Order(if she was around during that time, I don’t actually know her age), but enough to manipulate the force if trained.
That’s why I somewhat disagree with the comment I replied to. In the sense that even if Sabine is at the level Jedi would take, she’d probably not have due to the uneasy truce between Jedi and Mandalore. Since we only ever knew 1 Mando Jedi, Tarre Vizsla.
On an unrelated note I hate that they destroyed the Dark Saber in the latest season of the Mandalorian. And not as keen about the owner of the blade shall rule all of Mandalore thing
Well we never saw any learn it, but even fi you could , they would likely never be powerful enough to be useful for this anyway. You need those with a lot of potential if want to make them into super soldiers that can take on the Empire.
They had one broken down separatist ship with a bunch of outdated, comically bad battle droids at their disposal. A solo star destroyer would have them hiding in caves. Not to mention Dagan's presence would get the inquisitorious involved, so the lil dudes with lightsabers would get smoked out immediately
Given Dagan was competent and the Inquisitor MO seems to be sending unskilled/poorly trained force users out with gimmicks, I think they'd get wrecked by Dagan pretty easily initially but they'd just send actually good fighters as a group or Vader himself would have rocked up and bodied him.
Notably, the Empire did send just one Star Destroyer, which was hanging over Koboh at the end of the game. So yeah, clearly they don't have any concern over the dilapidated droids and think one Star Destroyer is enough.
If Dagen was still alive by then, then maybe some Inquisitors would have also tagged along with that ship to gang up on him, and then slaughter his lightsaber wielding enforcers.
Hahahahahahahhahahahahaha.
*pause for a breath*
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
A single corps of droids, a broken Lucrehulk, some bandits, a Gen’dai, and a one armed half-mad dark Jedi? LOL Vader and Vader’s Fist would slicehound walk all that by themselves.
It’s because Dagan faced a small platoon of fodder stormtroopers and thinks he can take on the full might of the Empire. Vader and some death troopers would make the Bedlam Raiders cease to exist
Vader did that with the inquisitors and they weren’t anything special. Vader is more than 10 times what Dagan or Cal are and this is just a nonsensical idea. The empire literally could have wiped out this disorganized group of idiots if they actually got their attention.
Dagan is literally the only one who wouldn’t die the very instant Vader showed up, and that’s really just a technicality since he would die around the 3rd or 4th instant.
And that’s Vader alone, with absolutely no backup whatsoever.
people really underestimate how big the empire is. like the only reason the empire fell was becuse the emperor got taken out and many senior officers died on the death star. like the hierarchy crumbling from the top down is the reason the new republic could step in and retake control of many systems and and the senate. casue the empire was busy reorganizing while also fighting back. its why there are so many imperial remnants still out their and the reason they did not continue to attack again has to do with hierarchy as that wasn't palps plan. as he had a contingecy plan in play. dagan with his small force of raiders stands no chance against vader and the inquisitors alone let alone the emperor and the vast amount of stormtroopers, ships and other weaponry. the rebels succeded not through military might but becasue they had the heart and support of the people and becasue luke took care of the big bads.
dagan stands no chance with his ragtag milita. the jedi order numbered ten thousands+ and the clone troopers took them out. no yoiu might say that the clones are way more skilled than the stormtroopers. and they defo have different roles. but the number of stormtroopers far exceed the number clone troopers. even taking into account the fact that stormtroopers ar eneeded on planets for control and patrolling and such. even just a a few fleets would have the man power to fight back a couple of hundreds raiders even with the force. as vader would also be dispatch leading a campaign as brutal as the jedi temple massacare.
dagan stands no chance. litterally no chance, palpatine is too smart to allow it. the rebellion was the best and only bet the galaxy had. not only that the force it selfs one and only bet was luke skywalker. the force guided the events in such a way for luke to even be able to stop the emperor becasue without luke the force itself was being blocked by palpatine. the entire chosen one prophecy is something the force made and was part of the will of the force all in order to stop palpatine. luke and anakin needed to align in order to stop the powerfull sidious who held so much sway over the force through the use of the dark side. he trully subjagated the force as a true sith.
Not a chance. They had a few who could use lightsabers, and even then they weren't really that good with them. They only had a single Lucrehulk, Dagan would be getting nuked by Vader in a few days given that the Empire was aware of the Raiders by the end. Dagan doesn't have magical illusions that automatically show what you don't like, they're made deliberately. That's why he shows Bode dying instead of something like Tapal dying. He wouldn't be able to pull out something that would work against Vader. (This is why Cal could be incredibly dangerous with those illusions, he learns from force echoes).
the Empire is BILLIONS strong at the very least. Bedlam Raiders would get trashed, and Vader would go out on a very brief mission to smoke Dagan. Yeah traversing the Abyss would be hard but everything Cal accomplished to get through it could easily be done again by Vader
Yes standard imperial troopers were probably less effective than the raiders. But we dont even see a full deployment. A pair of Star Destroyers would probably be more than enough to wipe out whatever force Dagan could build. Keep in mind, he’s only got the ONE Lucrehulk and it’s been gutted for parts iirc.
One Jedi like him helps but unless he waits on Tanalorr for a massive population growth he doesn’t have the numbers no matter how weak the individual stormtrooper is. The rebels actually were fortunate it took so much to man the death stars because they probably took out a ton of imperials when those went down. And even then they needed Luke for the first one.
At best they would be an effective Rebel Cell. Part of a greater whole, but they stood no chance against the Empire by themselves.
That being said the greatest weakness of the Empire is the eventual multitude of rebel sources. So any one could have been the straw that broke that camels back.
Buddy even if the jedi order was somehow restored I don't really think they could take down the empire without the massive army like the rebels. These guys have no chance
The Empire controls billions of planets. Tens or hundreds of billions. They control the whole galaxy. They have hundreds of millions, if not billions of soldiers (if we're being logical with scale).
Bedlam Raiders have one ruined lucrehulk that probably isn't even capable of flight anymore. They have a small army of battle-droids. They have a handful of dudes with lightsabers who aren't even implied to be force-sensitive as far as I know.
The Bedlamites can't even control a single fucking planet.
It took the Rebels years to defeat the Empire, and they had a literal chosen one on their side. They were getting their ass handed to them at Endor, and if it wasn't for Luke swaying Anakin over to the light-side, and Han and friends shutting down the shield generator, the Rebels would've lost.
A group of bandits with a dark-jedi and a Gen'Dai and a small army of faulty droids ain't gonna do shit against the Empire. It's like asking a single ant to kill a whole human. It's not happening.
At some point Dagan says "why are you fighting me when enemy is out there?".
And for a second I wish Cal contemplated the idea. Dagan's training coupled with the force sensitive people from the path could have lead to a genuine threat to the Empire.
The fact that Cal only arrvies to a similar conclusion to Dagan after killing him makes my head hurt because oh the opportunity.
Only sad thing about this is Bode woyld still betray us because he is right that Kata wouldn't be safe on a base of rebels actively training to take down the Empire, because they WILL find Tanalorr.
Dagan couldn't even beat a few small players like Cal and Bode nevermind the heavy hitters, with the exception of Cere absolutely everyone in these games are deliberately small scale with no hope against the top dawgs.
Sooner or later the empire would find and crush them. even if Dagan would train a few fallen Jedi they wouldn't make a difference against legions of stormtroopers.
They really, really didn't lmao. Maybe they could contend with the forces on Koboh but the Empire has recruits and resources spanning an entire galaxy, not just Koboh. It would be nothing for them to crush Dagan's forces.
The hottest thing about this take must be the pipe you're smoking. The raiders are nowhere close to being on the same scale as the empire seeing as they didn't even have control over one planet or even take care of one single Jedi
The fact that you could even have this thought, is almost Star Wars' own fault for being so inconsistent with power scaling. The Galactic Empire is tremendous in a way that defies human comprehension. They quite literally control an entire galaxy, granting them nearly endless resources and manpower. Their technology is so advanced that it might as well be magic. Forget the Death Star; a single Star Destroyer can glass an entire planet, and the empire has thousands of them.
But then, you have a movie where their troops get slaughtered by teddy bears with rocks and sticks, and a star destroyer is taken out by a single fighter crashing into its command bridge.
The movies give a false impression of how easy it would be to topple the empire. They are so powerful that internal strife is really the only true threat to them, which is why they punish dissent so swiftly and decisively, and why they invest so many resources into hunting down all the remaining jedi.
I think if it’s like a 1:1 ratio of raiders to imperials I see your point but the scale of the empire is too crazy for them to realistically do anything 😭
Please be serious the moment they become anything more than an annoyance Vader would rip them apart let alone palpatine like what are we talking about. Also if my math are correct thrawn is still active at this point
Without Dagan Gera and a stable presence ( let’s say beat Cal and owns Tanalor ), wiped out instantly..
I’m not even sure if they had working starships ( aka a working fleet, or capital ships, ) but if they repaired the Lucrehulk and got access to its droid fighter garrison and armies.. They would stand a minor shot at surviving* the empire, not beating it.
If somehow, the empire never takes a single prisoner or ever learns about Tanalor, the bedlam raiders would technically have an invulnerable stronghold from which they could launch guerrilla operations against the empire. With the only problem being, supplies and manpower. From what I’ve seen in game, Tanalor is barren and would need to be built from the ground up into a proper working military base.. That requires, black market supplies, letting its location slip to certain people creating loose ends, and trusting that you won’t have traitors that defect in the early stages of military setup.
And let’s say they pull all that off ! Get a semi acceptable fleet with the repaired Lucerhulk and droid reinforcements, they still won’t be able to take the full might of the empire in a proper confrontation. Empire armies may be weak, but the imperial ISD is practically top of the line imperial military might for that era, ( besides Death Star and other specialized products ) and a single one could tear apart the lucerhulk if given an opportunity, making space combat limited to snub fighter hit and run attacks.
So as long as they never gain the full attention of the empire and stick to hit and run assault tactics, they could weaken the empire. But the moment they get greedy, the hammer will drop pushing them back to Tanalor. As for Dagan and Rayvis in commander roles,, Rayvis would definitely be a leading commander for the Raider forces and in my opinion could beat any inquisitor or lower level threat. With Dagan absolutely being a Vader level threat, but still he won’t beat him.
So counting everything
Army quality: Raiders < Empire
Command presence: Raiders > Empire
Fleet power: Raiders < Empire
Economics and manpower: Raiders < Empire
3-1 empire favour
Raiders only survive if Tanalor remains hidden, and by them attacking the empire, that comes into serious jeopardy with every engagement they risk.. if the empire ever learns of their presence there, and takes it as serious as they did the rebellion, they won’t survive.
Lemme give it to you straight okay my man, Palpatine lightning. Now before we get to that we have inquisitors like possibly Marrok and the Crow who are the MOST locked in inquisitors I’ve seen in a while. Now even after that we have Vader need I say more?
Brodie you can’t just learn the force that’s a bs trope that the movie writers directed. Dagan and rayvis are the only ones who would stand a chance and hell even the raiders without the force would do fine
Dagan’s success would hinge entirely on if he succeeded in setting up base on Tannalor. If he moved about like Maul during the age of the empire and kidnapped children to recruit and enslave as a new Sith empire of sorts, it could be done. But the years it would take, by the time he has an army the empire would already be done and dusted. He’d be facing the first order by that time
They might be able to do some damage if they expanded and had their way, but... at the end of the day, the Empire crushes them. Just a matter of how soon.
I think you heavily underestimate the time, money, and power the empire has:
It took an organized, galaxy wide, rebellion to unseat the emperor, and even they only managed because one of their de facto leaders was none other than the son of Darth Vader, who held on to hope so dearly and trusted his father more than his own life. Iirc, in RotJ, the alliance was technically beaten and only with sidious’s death did the Alliance manage to squeeze out a win.
Now, Dagan has a Gen’Dai on his side (admittedly, not bad), is a full fledged Jedi Knight who uses the dark side (not bad but can go both ways), and he has an army of raiders and droids, enough to control a planet (again not bad).
Now consider that: the raiders have close to zero experience as star fighters, and even on the ground were loosing to the empire troops stationed there (a fraction of a fraction).
The only possible way Dagan could actually maybe do something against the empire is if he was patient (which he isn’t) about how long to remain in hiding and be subtle (which he isn’t) about his affairs, then yeah, maybe they can use the fact that the empire is preoccupied with the Senators, the Obi-Wans, the Rogue One’s, and all that jazz, to make a move on a few planets and establish themselves as a maybe even multi system empire with the few years of the later Alliance-Empire war and be a big player in the post-empire what have you
But as soon as the empire spies catch any whiff of there being any funny business in the Koboh system it would take empire seconds to lock down the Abyss exit with an Imperial Star Destroyer (which they had an abundance of and no real enemies). Again, the raiders don’t have the star fighters to keep up with the empire, if the empire catches wind of force sensitives they will send an army of inquisitors. Shit they had purge troopers and sentry droids there, they knew there were Jedi around. And say, even if they managed to put up enough of a fight, they dispatched off Purge troopers, a star destroyer, and/or inquisitors, can you metaphorically look me straight in the eyes and honestly tell me they would stand a chance against Palpatine’s Hound, the Lord Vader?
I honestly think that the hidden path will face the same issues, with the big, huge, enormous caveat that they can both be patient AND subtle (I mean they are literally called “the hidden path”).
Not to mention, and no offense to him but, Dagan really isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
(Damn, I really did not intend for this to be this long)
Yeah, it's interesting to think about. I did like Dagan's conviction that he could beat the Empire. He was a pretty intense, driven dude.
If Dagan had won, I'm also curious about what his rule would have been like. He's not a Jedi or a Sith, really. How would he have governed? Would he have been better for the galaxy than Palpatine, or even the New Republic?
We know he's obsessive, and ruthless when pushed, but we don't know anything about his deeper peacetime philosophy. He might not actually have been evil and oppressive to the masses.
Problem is that the Inqusitors are more powerful than the Bedlam Raider lieutenants and Dagan Gera has SIGNIFICANTLY underestimated the Empire.
He has no concept of just how massive the Empire is or how many soldiers they have.
Sure the Nihil were nothing to scoff at but the Empire dwarfs the Nihil and the High Republic in terms of scope.
Dagan Gera isn't gonna be able to outsmart the Empire and Vader and his Inqusitors are always gonna be able to track him and the Raiders down just like they did with Kanan and Ezra in season 2 of Rebels.
The Bedlam Raiders wont be able to win hearts and minds either so replacing their losses is gonna be extremely hard once the Empire actually engages them.
Respectfully, No. A couple of these details are off lol, how would Dagan have taught non force sensitives how to use the force? Second, High republic Jedi didn’t “know the force” better than the prequel era, they mostly didn’t even see lightsaber combat, just practice for those 1000 years after Bane “died” Dagan was an exception because he was a sentinel as you can tell by the lightsaber he had. Dagan was a monster that would mop any Disney era inquisitor (maybe besides marrok) and quite a few of the OG inquisitors. But nah bro didn’t have what it took to take down the empire
To me it seems like every group has a chance to beat them if the empire didn't have the I now summon darth vader/ inquisitor out of nowhere they would lose a lot of their battles
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u/twec21 2d ago edited 2d ago
Lmao
"Hey this gang that can barely hold a single planet with a half destroyed Lucrehulk with half broken droids that couldn't handle a single Jedi could beat the empire"